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#91 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 08:46 PM

niner: I hadn't written down the exact number, and went to a friend's place to use his phone. So I gave them the 200 value - I said "about $200" - after the package had already been seized due to the sender's fraudulent value claim on the Bill of Lading.

Let me repeat: it is the legal obligation of the SENDER to write on the BILL OF LADING what the TRUE VALUE is. It is not my responsibility.

Customs looks at the Bill of Lading when the package is in clearance, and from there they decide whether to indict it or not, and what taxes and duties may apply.

For reference, here are downloadable PDF-format "Canadian & U.S. Shipping Documents and Customs Forms". They provide: Bill of Lading; Canada Customs Invoice; Commercial Invoice; Certificate of Origin, and even free software to make custom Bills of Lading.

Of course, Fedex & UPS provide their own custom forms, printed or digital. It's up to the sender to fill in their forms accurately.

Edited by Isochroma, 05 September 2009 - 08:55 PM.


#92 Mortuorum

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 09:01 PM

niner: I hadn't written down the exact number, and went to a friend's place to use his phone. So I gave them the 200 value - I said "about $200" - after the package had already been seized due to the sender's fraudulent value claim on the Bill of Lading.

Let me repeat: it is the legal obligation of the SENDER to write on the BILL OF LADING what the TRUE VALUE is. It is not my responsibility.

Customs looks at the Bill of Lading when the package is in clearance, and from there they decide whether to indict it or not, and what taxes and duties may apply.


I would be all for contacting their posed, asserted testing facility, I just ordered some stuff from SP and am tempted to send it back, I am far too concerned with being contaminated, clandestinely, sub-clinically poisoned.....There are some pharmaceutical suppliers in China that are clearly more responsible and reputable than are others, too....The fact that Mike is able to undercut so many other suppliers so drastically is concurrently elating but also very worrisome and ultimately makes me feel that it might be a poorer grade, potentially "dirty" product.......

I reside in the US and ordered a ton of AOR products at good prices through CURESELF and received one shipment with no hassles but then customs through UPS seized the second order (the first hassle-free one went by Canadian Post and then onto the USPS). I had a resultant nightmare of a time with customs, they opened half of the products, tampered with them, etc. presumably looking for contraband......My supplements wee in limbo for more than a month and finally they were sent back to CURESELF......He re-sent me the order through Canadian Post and all seemed fine save for him inadvertently sending me some of the product customs had tampered with, which he promptly sent replacements for. CURESELF was great through all of it and I don't fault them, my problem was with customs and their Draconian procedures. They cited some stupidity about the Bovine source material in some AOR products being also accountable for seizure and denial of receipt. Despite the fact that AOR do officially and legally distribute all of their line through BIGGER$$$$ distros here in the USA.....I was screwed by bureaucracy and procedure, maybe even "homeland security" discrimination? lol..................

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#93 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 09:09 PM

It can be a nightmare, can't it?

It's bad enough that Customs tends to look down upon these supplements, and even worse if the sender gives them an excuse to impound the shipment because of improperly filled forms.

A properly-declared shipment can almost always be salvaged if it's stopped by Customs, but if the documentation is gimped then it's much more likely to be seized & destroyed or returned to the sender.

As for product purity, I think Smart Powders is fine. But a business run by a single individual can be problematic in other ways that are more likely to affect customers. This is probably the only pro-big-business argument I've ever made: larger companies have a consistent legal style.

They have shipping departments where everything is done by rote & procedure. They don't risk sending shipments with improper documentation. They are large enough to afford an in-house shipping department that can devote its entire attention & care to the shipping process and stay up to date on correct procedure.

Some are even large enough to use their own clearing agent, who can give them better control over and information about their cross-border shipments.

Edited by Isochroma, 05 September 2009 - 09:14 PM.


#94 Mike M

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 09:12 PM

You don't pay duties on shipping fee's. His transaction was for 118, he told them 200. I can only go off what the fedex rep told me. That's what they told so I have no reason NOT to believe them as they have no vested interest in the matter. It's a holiday weekend, so I can't get any updates till Tuesday. I'll call then and get another update. They're going to release his package at some point and he'll get what he ordered. As you can see, I went out of my way to help him and all he did was slander me. Don't know many retailers who will send an item before being paid. He doesn't want to own up to contributing to the issue by lying about his phone call. I admitted the shipping rep made a mistake. It happens. I'm trying to fix it, which is hard when the consumer works against you.

The COA thing is just funny. Anyone can email wednesday of next week when I'm in the office and get COA's for metal content or the independent purity tests that are posted on the site. Consumers have the right to shop anywhere they want. I just ask the truth be told about things. There are some people who will never support my business and that is fine. You can't make everyone happen. I'm the largest domestic supplier of piracetam in the country. I supply many people, including my competition. Ever wonder why so many suppliers ran out and aren't selling? Just something to think on. My products get tested more than any others, trust me.

As far as these other people posting. I just assume they are happy customers. I've never asked anyone to post for me, I don't have too. Check their ISP's if you think I have something to do with it. You'll see I don't. Not everything is a big conspiracy theory.

Enjoy your weekend, I'll post back on Tuesday when I get an update from Fedex.


Mike

#95 Ben

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 03:36 AM

3. These COA's are, in my opinion, fraudulent and misrepresentative. They are simply pieces of paper with figures on them. There's no mention of the laboratory that carried out the analysis, or anyway to contact them. It has been suggested by another poster that these are simply the COA's provided by the Chinese manufacturers themselves, a very clear, very important, conflict of interest.


The COA's on the smartpowders website show http://rtp-labs.com/
It would be good if someone local could contact them


Oh right, I was going on the information contained withing papers that came in my recent order.

I've just RTP an email. I'll post it and their reply when I have it.

#96 niner

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 04:20 AM

niner: I hadn't written down the exact number, and went to a friend's place to use his phone. So I gave them the 200 value - I said "about $200" - after the package had already been seized due to the sender's fraudulent value claim on the Bill of Lading.

OK, so there have been errors in reporting the value of the shipment in both directions. That's too bad. I don't see how they could seize a package due to a fraudulent (or just erroneous) value claim if they don't know the true value. Were they just on a fishing expedition?

#97 Mortuorum

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 05:47 AM

3. These COA's are, in my opinion, fraudulent and misrepresentative. They are simply pieces of paper with figures on them. There's no mention of the laboratory that carried out the analysis, or anyway to contact them. It has been suggested by another poster that these are simply the COA's provided by the Chinese manufacturers themselves, a very clear, very important, conflict of interest.


The COA's on the smartpowders website show http://rtp-labs.com/
It would be good if someone local could contact them


Oh right, I was going on the information contained withing papers that came in my recent order.

I've just RTP an email. I'll post it and their reply when I have it.


Good job.

A thought, however. Is there truly much value based upon a CoA, ultimately? A "clean" sample can be submitted, one of higher caliber procured via a more reputable supplier, then the actual product mass produced is done so via raw materials procured from less ethical, cleanly, and reliable supplier.......Who would be the one to truly know? Third Party Testing would appear to be most reliable, although I am not keen upon the actual logistical procedure. The business in question, authorizing the tests could easily send out one supply of good/clean product (from a small stash, supply run collated and assembled in advance) throughout the period wherein they anticipate the 'clandestine' order to be anonymously placed by the independently contracted laboratory and then begin using a back-up, more quantitative supply of cost saving but dubious purity-wise materials. Why anyone would do this is another question, go to such lengths, few distributors do Third Party anyway so it is highly unlikely, I merely point out that nothing whatsoever is infallible and no one is beyond corruption and unethical, unscrupulous shenanigans, particularly in such a diseased, highly unethical capitalist world we are unconsciously enslaved within...haha.......

I would really be interested in knowing who some of the SMART POWDERS' "competition" is that Mike intimates he supplies with Piracetam (only?), can you divulge this, Mike?

So far, as far as I am aware, the only establishment to offer Third Party Analysis for their products is Relentless Improvement. I just wish his prices weren't so high and that he sold things in bulk powder form as well. His is a uniquely specialized distro, however, I think he caters primarily to a more upscale clientele which does not really want to be bothered with incremental, more scientific dosage experimentation or even the moot "inconvenience" of powders.........

#98 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 06:12 AM

That's why good internal assays are done from randomly chosen batches or, if ordered by the end-user, from randomly chosen packaged product.

Even better is to order multiple units of product and mix them thoroughly. This averages out any differences intentional or not and provides a 'big picture' view. Such a 'big picture' view is especially relevant for a customer who takes the material on a daily basis over long periods of time, because their body will 'see' the average.

If and when I submit SP's material to one of my local analysis firms, I'll mix the powders from several containers thoroughly, then submit a sample. It's not a top priority though, because synthesis-derived contaminants are likely below their relevant safety-thresholds.

Without even paying for a test, a simple way to measure the risk is to look at the top synthesis methods for the product in question, and check the contamination rates for the ingredients and intermediates including solvents. Also valuable is the speciation. For example, there's no worry about inorganic metals in organic solvents - they simply aren't co-soluble. For organic solvents, halogenated organics (ex. PCBs, PBBs), organo-heavy metals such as dimethylmercury and functionalized hydrocarbons (usually carcinogenic ie. PAHs) are the most likely contaminants.

Organic solvents are made from hydrocarbon feedstocks, often hydrogenated with the aid of light hydrocarbon fractions from one to six carbons long (methane - hexane range). These have a high mercury contamination rate due to natural copresence in the source deposit. High-grade oil refineries usually specifically remove mercury from natural gas - because it poisons their own hydrogenation catalysts and corrodes metal piping by amalgamation (especially aluminium). Mercury literally dissolves into most metals except iron. That doesn't mean that all refineries do so, and like most products both natural gas feedstock and light solvents made with its inclusion are available in a variety of purities.

The real nasty one is syntheses that directly use heavy metals. In those cases secondary purification and testing are mandatory. Years ago I read this horror story while looking up MDMA synthesis. It's an underground recipe that involves the use of aluminium foil and mercury rubbed into it (amalgam). Realizing that underground chemists wouldn't have the facilities, money or care to test the product, never mind even purify it to remove the inevitable contamination, I decided right then to never buy anything from such suppliers.

For those that don't believe, here's the relevant part of that MDMA synthesis story:

Shulgin's choices of synthesis procedures in the second half of the book are themselves perhaps a small act of subversion: While the reactions are beyond the ability of people with no chemistry education, they tend to emphasize techniques that do not require difficult to obtain chemicals. Notable among these are the use of mercury-aluminum amalgam.

Mercury-aluminum amalgam: Aluminium amalgam is a solution of aluminium in mercury. Aluminium amalgam may be prepared by either grinding aluminium pellets or wire in mercury, or by allowing aluminium wire to react with a solution of mercury chloride in water.

I won't go any further with that sordid story {check out Discussions on the Aminomercuration of Safrole for the ugly details}, except to note that as a person of supposedly high intelligence, Shulgin showed a remarkable lack of concern for both the environment and the obvious implications of creating such recipes for underground chemists to carry out in their pursuit of profits. Without the equipment, government regulation and mandated testing of end-product that legal pharmaceutical corporations are burdened with, the obvious result is an epidemic of mercury-contaminated MDMA on the black market.

In the case of inorganic heavy metals, the most likely source is cheap catalysts which are themselves metals. Though decent catalysts are usually clean of them - because heavy metals often poison catalysts - it may still be economic to use lower-purity versions and throw them out more often. Like Chinese manual labor whose wages are still low enough to warrant their use over machines in such industries as garment manufacture, the low price of contaminated catalysts may warrant their use despite significantly faster decline of catalytic activity.

One disadvantage of a mixing procedure is if it's done excessively it can dilute a single highly-contaminated batch or container with many that are not contaminated, producing a correct but misleading average. A person who consumed the single contaminated container might get sick, while if all containers were premixed to dilute the toxin(s) and consumed over a longer time, no illness might result.

However, the likelyhood of the second case being more frequent than the first is lower, usually by an amount that warrants a certain range of reasonable mix-ratios for analytical submission.

Edited by Isochroma, 06 September 2009 - 06:47 AM.


#99 Mortuorum

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 07:17 PM

That's why good internal assays are done from randomly chosen batches or, if ordered by the end-user, from randomly chosen packaged product.

Even better is to order multiple units of product and mix them thoroughly. This averages out any differences intentional or not and provides a 'big picture' view. Such a 'big picture' view is especially relevant for a customer who takes the material on a daily basis over long periods of time, because their body will 'see' the average.

If and when I submit SP's material to one of my local analysis firms, I'll mix the powders from several containers thoroughly, then submit a sample. It's not a top priority though, because synthesis-derived contaminants are likely below their relevant safety-thresholds.

Without even paying for a test, a simple way to measure the risk is to look at the top synthesis methods for the product in question, and check the contamination rates for the ingredients and intermediates including solvents. Also valuable is the speciation. For example, there's no worry about inorganic metals in organic solvents - they simply aren't co-soluble. For organic solvents, halogenated organics (ex. PCBs, PBBs), organo-heavy metals such as dimethylmercury and functionalized hydrocarbons (usually carcinogenic ie. PAHs) are the most likely contaminants.

Organic solvents are made from hydrocarbon feedstocks, often hydrogenated with the aid of light hydrocarbon fractions from one to six carbons long (methane - hexane range). These have a high mercury contamination rate due to natural copresence in the source deposit. High-grade oil refineries usually specifically remove mercury from natural gas - because it poisons their own hydrogenation catalysts and corrodes metal piping by amalgamation (especially aluminium). Mercury literally dissolves into most metals except iron. That doesn't mean that all refineries do so, and like most products both natural gas feedstock and light solvents made with its inclusion are available in a variety of purities.

The real nasty one is syntheses that directly use heavy metals. In those cases secondary purification and testing are mandatory. Years ago I read this horror story while looking up MDMA synthesis. It's an underground recipe that involves the use of aluminium foil and mercury rubbed into it (amalgam). Realizing that underground chemists wouldn't have the facilities, money or care to test the product, never mind even purify it to remove the inevitable contamination, I decided right then to never buy anything from such suppliers.

For those that don't believe, here's the relevant part of that MDMA synthesis story:

Shulgin's choices of synthesis procedures in the second half of the book are themselves perhaps a small act of subversion: While the reactions are beyond the ability of people with no chemistry education, they tend to emphasize techniques that do not require difficult to obtain chemicals. Notable among these are the use of mercury-aluminum amalgam.

Mercury-aluminum amalgam: Aluminium amalgam is a solution of aluminium in mercury. Aluminium amalgam may be prepared by either grinding aluminium pellets or wire in mercury, or by allowing aluminium wire to react with a solution of mercury chloride in water.

I won't go any further with that sordid story {check out Discussions on the Aminomercuration of Safrole for the ugly details}, except to note that as a person of supposedly high intelligence, Shulgin showed a remarkable lack of concern for both the environment and the obvious implications of creating such recipes for underground chemists to carry out in their pursuit of profits. Without the equipment, government regulation and mandated testing of end-product that legal pharmaceutical corporations are burdened with, the obvious result is an epidemic of mercury-contaminated MDMA on the black market.

In the case of inorganic heavy metals, the most likely source is cheap catalysts which are themselves metals. Though decent catalysts are usually clean of them - because heavy metals often poison catalysts - it may still be economic to use lower-purity versions and throw them out more often. Like Chinese manual labor whose wages are still low enough to warrant their use over machines in such industries as garment manufacture, the low price of contaminated catalysts may warrant their use despite significantly faster decline of catalytic activity.

One disadvantage of a mixing procedure is if it's done excessively it can dilute a single highly-contaminated batch or container with many that are not contaminated, producing a correct but misleading average. A person who consumed the single contaminated container might get sick, while if all containers were premixed to dilute the toxin(s) and consumed over a longer time, no illness might result.

However, the likelyhood of the second case being more frequent than the first is lower, usually by an amount that warrants a certain range of reasonable mix-ratios for analytical submission.


Great information! With Chinese facilities in particular though, don't processing plants themselves, their very unregulated, unmonitored environmental conditions as well as post-synthesis exposures of substances to potential extraneous contaminants intrinsic to those very stated processing environments factor alarm or at least concern for ardent evaluations of product? Do you know, to a large extent courtesy of China and India (but the US is much less regulated, strict than people assume as well and are culpable), how much depleted uranium has inadvertently ended up in stainless steel material and subsequent products of a wide depth of strata and function (fencing, toasters, cheese graters, appliances, etc.) manufactured as a result? Industry has even admitted that much has slipped through the cracks and been utilized for decades. In China and India identified contaminated materials are often disseminated and placed back into circulation as well. It's horrifying and there is little one can ultimately do to protect oneself save for investing in a good Geiger Counter....lol.......

So, essentially, my even larger concern would be for post-synthesis/manufacture/production of compound handling and storage procedures, and the sanctity of the industrial environment within which this all transpires, etc. The facilities wherein these chemicals are being manufactured and processed also manifest a plethora of other compounds, chemicals of not only a pharmaceutical but also an industrial nature. These facilities are often very haphazardly run, they are not necessarily well-calibrated unto the most conscious quality control efficiency and conscientiousness regarding the strict handling of and isolation of compounds, environmental control fro the sake of maintaining purity, insuring that no "cross-pollination" might occur at any stage, from pre-synthesis unto packing and storage. This would be wherein I would imagine a myriad of contamination could occur, not merely such as directly manifest through processing procedures of the compound in question alone.

Edited by Mortuorum, 06 September 2009 - 08:11 PM.


#100 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:22 PM

All the quotes for Piracetam I've gotten so far state that it is delivered in paper (usually plastic-coated) drums of typical 25kg size. Of course before it's packed in those it could be stored in steel drums or something else.

In the end, the only way to be sure is for the end-user to submit a sample to an analysis firm. I'll be getting quotes from my local firms shortly.

The FDA, consumer groups and independant researchers (see the mercury in high fructose corn syrup study) often pull random product from shelves and test it. That's the best way, aside from sick people showing up at hospitals, or dead ones at morgues.

#101 Mortuorum

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 11:16 PM

The FDA, consumer groups and independant researchers (see the mercury in high fructose corn syrup study) often pull random product from shelves and test it.

That's the best way, aside from sick people showing up at hospitals, or dead ones at morgues.[/quote]

hahahahaha........Or most likely the persistent, cumulative mounting of deleterious effects achieved from chronic habitual assimilation of product that "seems" okey-dokey.....manifesting subtle, sub-clinical symptoms of inflammation and pro-oxidization via constituent intrinsic contaminants of "whatever" source of derivation, ultimately exacerbating aging, premature death...lol.......We'll all die awaiting the FDA and consumer advocacy entities with any weight of bearing to seek out our best interests, the FDA (as though high fructose corn syrup were really something, even in a state of purity, that should be allowed into our industrialized food supply to begin with!) is the lapdog for big corporate food and pharmaceutical industries and serves them and their interests, the interests of their lobbyists, etc. ......It's really up to us to protect ourselves, alas..............

Will you be having Mike M.'s products tested yourself? What is the cost for you, what will the gamut of tests be seeking out?

Are you of the opinion that nearly all of these online entities dealing in Nootropics are most likely procuring the raw materials from the same exact source in China or possibly India in some instances?


(edited by Matthias: font size decreased...)

Edited by Matthias, 07 September 2009 - 09:37 AM.


#102 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 01:47 AM

The testing will depend on the cost, which I have to find out from local firms shortly.

However, another way to mitigate risk is to order from multiple suppliers and mix their powders together. That way the quality averages out, and you can be sure that the poison will work very slowly if at least half the industry is clean and the other half dirty :)

#103 Steve_86

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 06:31 AM

The testing will depend on the cost, which I have to find out from local firms shortly.


Maybe we can all donate a small amount...

#104 Ben

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 06:41 AM

The testing will depend on the cost, which I have to find out from local firms shortly.


Maybe we can all donate a small amount...


Mortuorum makes an excellent point. It really only truly makes sense for the end user to do the COA.

We should get a paypal fund going. I'd be happy to set one up for a COA done here (Australia). I have access to Oxiracetam, piracetam and pramiracetam purchased in the last month.

Any takers?

#105 Mortuorum

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 06:58 AM

The testing will depend on the cost, which I have to find out from local firms shortly.


Maybe we can all donate a small amount...


Mortuorum makes an excellent point. It really only truly makes sense for the end user to do the COA.

We should get a paypal fund going. I'd be happy to set one up for a COA done here (Australia). I have access to Oxiracetam, piracetam and pramiracetam purchased in the last month.

Any takers?


I would consider it, despite being dirt poor and existent well below what constitutes the poverty line level here in the good old USA....I would not mind having the Idebenone tested, too, as I like that supplement and his prices for it are better than anyone else's at the moment......

......Hey, don't you think the really ETHICAL thing to do would be for Mike M. himself to contribute some money to this enterprise?! If it all turned out in his favor it will come back to him in spades with tons of confident consumer orders! If I were him and had complete confidence in my product, I would offer this as a gesture to vocalized customer concerns. Think of the manner within which he could employ such a maneuver on his part to then energetically and wholesomely promote his very own business enterprise!!! It can all be arranged in such a way to insure that his money is being appropriated in the manner it is supposed to be and the products are then, through private consumers, legitimately tested by a reputable and private laboratory! If I were Mike, I would do this in a second! Then, at the culmination of the proverbial "Happy Ending" which must transpire, correct(?).....We can all then promote his business until we're blue from asphyxia!!!!!!!!!!!
(edited by Matthias: font size lowered; no need to shout)

Edited by Matthias, 07 September 2009 - 09:34 AM.


#106 Rational Madman

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 07:33 AM

The testing will depend on the cost, which I have to find out from local firms shortly.


Maybe we can all donate a small amount...


Mortuorum makes an excellent point. It really only truly makes sense for the end user to do the COA.

We should get a paypal fund going. I'd be happy to set one up for a COA done here (Australia). I have access to Oxiracetam, piracetam and pramiracetam purchased in the last month.

Any takers?

Unless something unforeseen confounds me, I would be very interested in contributing to a COA fund. I think the three distributors of greatest interest would be Smart Powders, Relentless Improvement, and NutraceuticsRx. I have access to some Piracetam (Relentless Improvement), Oxiracetam (NutraceuticsRx), and Pramiracetam (Smart Powders). I think I also have some bulk Piracetam somewhere (Primaforce and 1Fast400).

#107 Steve_86

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 11:19 AM

The testing will depend on the cost, which I have to find out from local firms shortly.


Maybe we can all donate a small amount...


Mortuorum makes an excellent point. It really only truly makes sense for the end user to do the COA.

We should get a paypal fund going. I'd be happy to set one up for a COA done here (Australia). I have access to Oxiracetam, piracetam and pramiracetam purchased in the last month.

Any takers?


Sounds good.

#108 niner

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 02:45 PM

Testing one bottle will give you some data, and that's good, but what if the next batch off the boat is contaminated? I try to only deal with ethical, trustworthy vendors who test every batch. How do you know who is ethical and trustworthy? I watch their behavior, and look at how they advertise. If I catch them lying, they are dead to me. I look for vendors to be transparent and open. I want to know who they are and where their business is located. I want to know who caps their product, and who does their analyses.

#109 lynx

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 02:49 PM

I can't believe this thread is still going. Anyone who has been using bulk supplements for more than a few months knows that Mike is the tops.
I have been using bulk powders for years and when Mike owned bulknutrition.com it was great, when he sold it quality went down. I am very happy to see he is back in business. Please end this smear thread, it has no basis.

Moderators, can you delete this thread and then continue the COA discussion in another thread.

#110 Rational Madman

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 05:18 PM

I can't believe this thread is still going. Anyone who has been using bulk supplements for more than a few months knows that Mike is the tops.
I have been using bulk powders for years and when Mike owned bulknutrition.com it was great, when he sold it quality went down. I am very happy to see he is back in business. Please end this smear thread, it has no basis.

Moderators, can you delete this thread and then continue the COA discussion in another thread.

If this thread has proven anything, it is that business practices of the owner of Smart Powders have garnered a great deal of controversy. Every sub-topic, from purity, potency, and ethics are not without a legitimate basis. Although I'm delighted to hear that you've been a satisfied customer for years, I think it would be a gross exaggeration to claim that all (or event most) long-term bulk -racetam customers believe that Mike has a unrivaled reputation for integrity, service, and product quality. What we are attempting to ascertain--the purity of commercial -racetam products and the business practices of vendors-- is of critical importance. If ultimately, we discover that our concerns are not without sufficient basis, Mike and other vendors should profit.

Implicit in any smear accusation is that the offender might profit from making unsubstantiated charges. I doubt you can prove that any of the members that have posted critical comments of Smart Powders will somehow profit from damaging its reputation. Rather, it seems abundantly clear that most posters believe their personal health and the health of other consumers to be paramount. If the content of this thread passes a certain threshold, and becomes characterized by pure and unmitigated defamation, then I would be the first to call for its suspension. But, fortunately, we are nowhere near that point.

Edited by Rol82, 07 September 2009 - 05:19 PM.


#111 Mike M

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:05 AM

If this thread has proven anything, it is that business practices of the owner of Smart Powders have garnered a great deal of controversy.


ONE customer goes off because he called customs and lied about what the package worth, it looked funny, so they've held the package to figure out what is going on. His original slander attempt was on invoicing. When that didn't work out for him, it turned into a QC issue. I have independent tests on my powders posted on my site. I can email COA's for the metal content testing to ANYONE that wants them. All they have to do is email me. I've posted this countless times and have emailed them to plenty of people


Every sub-topic, from purity, potency, and ethics are not without a legitimate basis. Although I'm delighted to hear that you've been a satisfied customer for years, I think it would be a gross exaggeration to claim that all (or event most) long-term bulk -racetam customers believe that Mike has a unrivaled reputation for integrity, service, and product quality. What we are attempting to ascertain--the purity of commercial -racetam products and the business practices of vendors-- is of critical importance. If ultimately, we discover that our concerns are not without sufficient basis, Mike and other vendors should profit.


This wasn't a QC issue thread till the original posters thread went south when the truth came out. As far as my business practices. There are countless threads under my original name 1fast400 all over the internet from when I owned a site that tested ALL types of products. I spent 100's of thousands of dollars in lawsuits over that site. I've done more indendepent testing than any other person in my field. The proof is in google, go look for yourself.


Implicit in any smear accusation is that the offender might profit from making unsubstantiated charges. I doubt you can prove that any of the members that have posted critical comments of Smart Powders will somehow profit from damaging its reputation. Rather, it seems abundantly clear that most posters believe their personal health and the health of other consumers to be paramount. If the content of this thread passes a certain threshold, and becomes characterized by pure and unmitigated defamation, then I would be the first to call for its suspension. But, fortunately, we are nowhere near that point.


You guys are forgetting one major thing with your testing idea. Chain of custody. Take it from someone who spent A LOT of money in lawsuits, if you don't do this right, you'll be sued into oblivion. I got taken to court by protein factory, a VERY well known incident (go search bb.com for the massive thread). It cost me a ton of money to go to court. When you test someone's product and send it from your house or personal supply, there is no way to prove what you sent belonged to anyone. If a test result was to come back negative for such a thing, you will be sued personally. At least in my case, they sued my business, they couldn't go after me personally. This is why consumers don't do testing. Do some searching to see what it costs when you lose a case like this, it's not pretty.

#112 Mike M

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:30 AM

I never realized racetams were this important to you. In life, there are things worth stressing over and things that aren't. You are out no money with this situation, so what did you lose? Your goal in all of this is to screw up the supplies for other people? I'm sure the rest of the board will be very happy with your decision to cause such problems with a supplier they use.

Of course, what are you going to do when the paperwork gets to you this week for your order and you see the invoice WAS done correctly? The fedex paperwork did have the wrong amount of 40.00. The other invoice that we do ourselves, was correct. Call fedex yourself and ask them if you think I'm lying: 1-800-247-4747. Ask for an international shipping representative. Then ask for it again. When you get a rep, give them your tracking number. Then ask them what commerical invoice they have on file for your package. You'll see what I stated since the start has been true. A mistake was made on the fedex invoice, but the commerical invoice that was included and refaxed last week, is correct.

Would I post all of that if it wasn't the truth?

Edited by Mike M, 08 September 2009 - 02:30 AM.


#113 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:34 AM

You're going to have to take it up with Canada Customs now, because Fedex no longer has the shipment.

It was CONFISCATED by Canada Customs because they decided they wouldn't get screwed over twice. I have to admit, they are a lot less lenient than myself.

Nonetheless, tomorrow is the big day. A lot is going to go down tomorrow, I can assure you. Answers will be had or heads will be rolling. One of those two.

And if you want to know how much my chemicals mean to me, I would kill if I needed to, to get them. Piracetam gave me my life back, and if it's taken away I'd rather die or go down fighting than be a sheep and take it up the ass quietly.

And don't forget that every day countless others fight and die over their chems. Like in Mexico, Columbia, the list goes on. Getting things done there involves guns and hitmen. That's how the world works, though almost nobody will admit it. A worldful of liars with guns behind their backs.

Edited by Isochroma, 08 September 2009 - 02:40 AM.


#114 Mike M

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:40 AM

Are you making an open personal threat? You're talking about killing people over a package that you haven't paid for an openly posted you weren't going to pay for? I guess I have trouble seeing what damage has been done to you in this case? You might not get some powders you didn't pay for? Am I missing something there?

You could obviously continue to order piracetam from one of many retailers that carry it.

Edited by Mike M, 08 September 2009 - 02:42 AM.


#115 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:50 AM

You're right, I could, and in fact I did order more from another seller.

As for nonlegal acts, I don't do those. There's far more power in using the legal processes that are available to me, like the PayPal process. It is still premature to set the wheels in motion {an ocean of motion is my total devotion} since I haven't yet verified the package's fate - but it is a promise of what will come if it doesn't arrive.

Now, if we lived in Mexico or Columbia, then it would be another matter because there isn't a rule of civil law there. So people resort to cruder methods.

If my words seem out of scale with the nature of the problem, you're right. I do have an alternate agenda. That agenda is to clean this festering world up. Even if it's only one person, one organization. My goal is to leave a mark, so I can die in peace.

Now, I don't go out there looking for fights. I let them come to me. And come they do in due course, though not often. It's not something I like to do either - I've got plenty of other things on my daily schedule. Positive things.

Just the two cases so far have consumed tons of my time. If my time was billed at minimum wage... I won't even bother with that calculation, except to say that hours and days cannot be bought back from a lifetime; they're lost forever. Karma brings these fights to me. It knows who to bring and when and why. I am just the messenger.

When one comes, I believe it's a gift from God, sent to give me an opportunity to change the world. Knowing that I'm going to die soon anyway, I don't have much to lose. My opponents are always more powerful than me, but they're weaker because they have more to lose. Often a lot more, like families and houses and mortgages and jobs and pets... sick, sick dogs in the hospital. Enough food to alleviate world hunger is fed to pets in North America.

My opponents have to work hard to hide their fear, but I can smell it from miles away.

God chose you because he decided that you needed to dance with me. And dance you will.

Edited by Isochroma, 08 September 2009 - 03:11 AM.


#116 Mike M

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:56 AM

I just called fedex. They said you don't have a phone? Is this true? They said you called on the 4th but in their notes it said you didn't have a phone number you could be reached at. Can you call them and give them your phone number so this can be resolved? The package is ready to be released. They just need the duties to be paid on it, that's it.

#117 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 03:01 AM

I don't have a phone because I live in poverty. I also have no car or credit card. So when I say that I haven't much to lose, you can take it that I'm one step from living on the street.

That's life though. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Edited by Isochroma, 08 September 2009 - 03:03 AM.


#118 Mike M

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 03:02 AM

Well can you call them and setup a time to talk to them? That is the ONLY reason this package has been held. They can't get in touch with you over the duties and taxes. The paperwork was fixed last week.

#119 Guest_Isochroma_*

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 03:04 AM

I've been calling them. Thursday, Friday, and now tomorrow. But there have been no answers. So I will keep calling until I get the word one way or another.

Payphones still only cost a quarter and 800 calls are free. Thankfully there are a few in my country though they're taking them out quick.

Edited by Isochroma, 08 September 2009 - 03:05 AM.


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#120 Mike M

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 03:09 AM

I just told them I would take care of your duty and taxes. The customs agent has been given my cell phone and email to get in touch with me tomorrow.


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