135 replies to this topic

[RighteousReason]

http://www.thesun.co...-age-of-16.html

Edited by RighteousReason, 13 July 2009 - 10:44 PM.

[Esoparagon]

Wow, that's amazing. But of course she looks so much like a girl now. Someone who goes through puberty as a girl will end up like that. I imagine being transsexual can be tough at times and the fact she is doing so well for herself is awesome.

Edited by Esoparagon, 13 July 2009 - 11:25 PM.

[Luna]

She looks like Evanna Lynch! before bleaching her hair

[TheFountain]

I bet if her sex change didn't go so well people would ridicule her. Because everyone loves making fun of unsuccessful forays into transexuality.

[kismet]

Because everyone loves making fun of unsuccessful forays into transexuality.

Nah, we like to ridicule basically everything.

[MicroBalrog]

I'm sorry, I don't really care if she was born with a penis.

When someone has a sex change surgery, the proper thing is to address them and deal with them in their new/chosen/real gender.

[niner]

I bet if her sex change didn't go so well people would ridicule her. Because everyone loves making fun of unsuccessful forays into transexuality.

Well, if it's unsuccessful (the mind boggles).... sure. If it's done well, no problem. This is the sort of thing where half measures don't usually come off all that well.

[.fonclea.]

From the moment it's something they have given the matter much thought. I have doubts sometime about the motivations of some trans.

I remember a trans during a show specifically for them and he/she said: " I am a woman just look at me! My hips, ass, long hair and make up.... blablbla". It was like beeing a woman it's just MAKE UP + BOOBS + LONG POLISHED NAILS. Pffffff the most average heterosexual male comment i ever heard from a trans.

But I am happy this case is successful.

[Cyberbrain]

I'm still curious in how sex change operations work. Do they really make you into a woman, or do you just end up with a mutilated penis?

[Luna]

Wiki knows it all!

http://health.howstu...eassignment.htm

http://en.wikipedia....ignment_therapy

http://en.wikipedia....therapy_(trans)

http://en.wikipedia....ignment_surgery
http://en.wikipedia...._male-to-female
http://en.wikipedia...._female-to-male


Wow female to male sounds complicated! I wonder if they are satisfied with the penis made for them O_o

Edited by Luna, 16 July 2009 - 03:48 PM.

[caston]

IMO, it's not a complete sex change until she has the complete set of fully functional female reproductive organs.

[Luna]

IMO, it's not a complete sex change until she has the complete set of fully functional female reproductive organs.

There are women who can't reproduce.

And she can't be called a male, she doesn't have that sexual organ either!
Although I won't call someone before that surgery a guy either. same for the opposite way, I won't call a woman.

Ever heard of Complete Androgen Insensetivity Syndrome? that might change your way of thought!

[Cyberbrain]

And she can't be called a male, she doesn't have that sexual organ either!

If you're referring to the penis, she still has it. It's just inside out.

But overall I think transexualism is also another form of transhumanism. In the future a mind will not be defined by the body.

[forever freedom]

But overall I think transexualism is also another form of transhumanism. In the future a mind will not be defined by the body.

nooo no, we don't want to mix the two, imagine if the media catches it LOL.

Anyways, transhumanism is about transcending our human limitations, while transexualism is nothing close to that.



Btw, to what extent he/she's really a female now?

[Cyberbrain]

Anyways, transhumanism is about transcending our human limitations, while transexualism is nothing close to that.

Well in a small way it is since it attempts to override biology ... male to female ... female to male ... transhumanism is bettering our selvs by changing our biology and such.

Granted I'm not sure to what extent a sex change can really turn you into the opposite sex, but it is a small form of transhumanism imo since we're attempting to control our sex.

Edited by Cyberbrain, 16 July 2009 - 06:27 PM.

[forever freedom]

Well in a small way it is since it attempts to override biology ... male to female ... female to male ... transhumanism is bettering our selvs by changing our biology and such.

Granted I'm not sure to what extent a sex change can really turn you into the opposite sex, but it is a small form of transhumanism imo since we're attempting to control our sex.

Yes, that's true.

[Luna]

http://www.eje-onlin...55/suppl_1/S107

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/7689007.stm

[Lazarus Long]

The issue in this case was very early intervention, she began puberty on a regimen of hormones. She was then surgically altered as well very early so the default mode goes back to female. BTW modeling is one of her professed ambitions.

Creating a fully viable female to male transition is harder than the other way around, to quote a trite cliche; It is easier to make a hole than a pole." Especially when taking into account the importance of neural sensitivity for the tissues involved.

However there is more to both states (M or F) than just physiology there is also genetics and that remains the same, but we are overriding it with HRT.

Today female sourced stem cells can be made into sperm so the ability of a F>M trans to fertilize his mate is around the corner, though it is still through IVF. The other way around is already technically possible the day a M>F trans wants to carry a baby of their own to term.

Again male stem cells can be made into ova and then through IVF fertilized. Womb transplants have already taken place and could theoretically be applied to a M>F transsexual. This means that after IVF the implanted zygote goes into the transplanted womb and the biology of the fetus takes over from there. This will not complete the shift genetically but the hormone direction during pregnancy is dominated by the fetus and placenta, not actually the mother. The transsexual would fully experience the pregnancy and birth like any other woman assuming no complications, which are alway a concern and even more so in a case like this.

The offspring of this union would be a normal child but as the child of a transhuman transsexual perhaps they could do a little extra gene tailoring before IVF.

[TheFountain]

Well, if it's unsuccessful (the mind boggles).... sure. If it's done well, no problem. This is the sort of thing where half measures don't usually come off all that well.

No I reduce it to the fact that in patriarchal western culture we love to put femininity, or the semblance of femininity, on a pedestal (even if the semblance suffers from sheer sluttiness).

Anything between feminine and masculine is put on display too, but for the purpose of the witch hunt. Plus men aren't allowed to have feminine characteristics in our UFC obsessed shaven headed culture. Michael Jackson is a perfect example. Ridiculed till the day he died.

But because this girl looks like a perfectly pretty little teenage feminine thing, 'she' is praised. I personally don't care either way, I am accepting of such decisions people make. I just think people tend to be hypocrites about it.

Edited by TheFountain, 16 July 2009 - 08:35 PM.

[RighteousReason]

nooo no, we don't want to mix the two

It's kinda implicitly there in a way. Transhuman, transsexual, anything with "trans-" in it just doesn't sound good in a PR sense, I'm thinking of Martine Rothblatt's "transbeman" word too

trans- fat

Edited by RighteousReason, 16 July 2009 - 10:33 PM.

[Brainbox]

Maybe this is expressed in a somewhat simplistic way, but the fact that we are able to influence the outcome of mutations that would originally be judged against "the rules of evolution" to fail is a major achievement. With "influencing" I mean that we are able to turn around "unsuccessful" mutations towards success.

In a somewhat broader perspective, the current social, political and economical problems can only be solved based on untraditional views that are able to cause certain paradigm shifts. For this, the natural selection as provided by evolution does not provide the required "genetic bandwidth". The complexity of our society already poses challenges that surpass our current abilities. More diversity is needed to deal with it.

Since sex is one of our major motivational sources, the first steps in order to make this change happen will be in this area.

Foremost, I hope this girl is becoming a very happy person.

[Brainbox]

Another thought is that it is Germany that seems to be in the forefront regarding tolerance towards "non ideal" human beings. People that are still judging this country for the mistakes implemented 70 years ago should rethink and re-evaluate.

Edited by Brainbox, 16 July 2009 - 10:58 PM.

[caston]

Yeah, it's especially stupid as the Nazi's were only put in power by the banking cartel because they opposed communism. They weren't the first and certainly weren't the last dictatorship to be helped to power for that reason.

[TheFountain]

Transhuman, transsexual, anything with "trans-" in it just doesn't sound good in a PR sense

In a PR sense if you have to dumb something down beyond recognition then it's not worth it. Just be happy you are one of the few who 'get it'.

[Ghostrider]

Wow, that transform worked out pretty well, at least from the photo above. However, I think the age of 12 is much too early to make such a life changing decision. Hope she does not live to regret it...

[Ghostrider]

IMO, it's not a complete sex change until she has the complete set of fully functional female reproductive organs.

And if there was...and if you became attracted to this girl (suppose you were unable to tell that she was once a man)...fell in love...then if she told you...would it matter?

[valkyrie_ice]

Wiki knows it all!

http://health.howstu...eassignment.htm

http://en.wikipedia....ignment_therapy

http://en.wikipedia....therapy_(trans)

http://en.wikipedia....ignment_surgery
http://en.wikipedia...._male-to-female
http://en.wikipedia...._female-to-male


Wow female to male sounds complicated! I wonder if they are satisfied with the penis made for them O_o

And is it any wonder I'm waiting for more advancements in medicine before I get mine? I have absolutely no desire to be a cosmetically altered MALE, I want to be fully female right down to my DNA.

Along with having the hooves, tail, wings and horns XD (Hey, I AM a succubus after all. *giggle*)

*sigh* if only MY doctor at age 9 had LISTENED to me instead of passing it off as a phase I'd grow out of. Guess that was one of bad things about growing up in the 70s as opposed to today.

[Luna]

IMO, it's not a complete sex change until she has the complete set of fully functional female reproductive organs.

And if there was...and if you became attracted to this girl (suppose you were unable to tell that she was once a man)...fell in love...then if she told you...would it matter?

Could you tell the difference before you were told? O_o
I couldn't!

*sigh* if only MY doctor at age 9 had LISTENED to me instead of passing it off as a phase I'd grow out of. Guess that was one of bad things about growing up in the 70s as opposed to today.

Apparently doctors still think like Ghostrider!

Wow, that transform worked out pretty well, at least from the photo above. However, I think the age of 12 is much too early to make such a life changing decision. Hope she does not live to regret it...

A while ago there was shooting at some gay/lesbian/trans community place in Israel, where they had support meetings and social meetings.

Some people came to support their friends who go there or came to give support and show not everyone is against them (as they did protesting and showed this is what they feel).

I went there and met some people from all 3 descriptions above, as well as bio and one more which is still making me feel dizzy - "gender queer".
It was really interesting actually! and weird at the same time.. (sorry!)
I learnt that in Israel, as well as many other countries, they do not allow starting the treatment until around age of 18 just because of what Ghostrider said.

I learnt how wrong it is if the person is enitrely sure, as you are let to go through pubery as one gender and then you need to pay for so many surgeries to fix it. and some things they are still not offering surgeries for.

That means ftm would be generally short, mtf would be usually tall.
ftm skull would be very feminine, ftm skull can be alerted quite a bit (are the surgeries out there now are enough?)

mtf needs t pay a lot for laser/electrolysis hair removal.
ftm grows hair with hormones.

mtf has a lot of voice problems - apparently surgeries for voice modification are very risky and not all doctors seems to change resonance but rather usually work on pitch only, therefore being incomplete.
ftm voice gets deeper from hormones..

most of the mtf doesn't seem to have adequate breast development. -
ftm needs to pay for surgery to remove theirs.

skeleton differences, I saw men with big hips (ftm) females with no hips..
bones size narrowness, all seems to differ quite a bit.

Then again, I saw some select few who started at later age and after facial surgery they looked perfectly female.
Some men (ftm) looked perfectly male without surgery, maybe a bit pretty - but it actually made them look quite attractive.

Even some women who had quite a large bone size looked normal after ffs I think.

I saw someone who would fit to the category in the sentence above, she looks like a bit masculized female (in the face) and I think if she went for surgery she'd be pretty but she doesn't seem to want to.
I found out the prices for it vary between average of 40,000$ and up to 75,000$ and more.. I think it might be related to why she won't do it!

So my opinion is that they are let to grow up, have their bodies ruined, a lot of stress, depression and humiliation.
And then they need to pay about average of 100,000$ to have their face, sexual organs internal organs for ftm, hair for mtf - all changed.
With no always satisfying results, with voice left a problem for mtf (I can't say I heard many female sounding mtf, although there were some)
and skeletal differences (such girth, height, sometimes skull, hips, some other features too) that are quite ..

I'd say this kind of proccedure at later age is not optimal enough, doctors are trying to prevent harm by causing a lot of harm.

I am more curious about brain differences.
I saw mtf acting perfectly female while others acted very guyish/boyish.
I saw ftm acing very manly, while others were still quite feminine.

There were also some who were quite in the middle of behavior, from both groups.
So in some people this isn't as obvious as in kim, but they are still sure about it.
What does it mean?

Some people are showing this obvious female/male behavior, yet are still not let on treatment!

I think that community needs a lot more surgical options for those (which seems to be most of it) who didn't receive treatment at young age, if it is due to rules about it, not knowing or whatever.

I am convinced they should be treating as having a physical birth defect and not as one gender wanting to be the other.
It's shame there aren't enough publicly available surgeries, some people manage to get a surgeon to do things which are usually not done by others, but for very expensive price.
Many of the public available surgeries (not ones you need to look for someone to agree to do it) are expensive and not always good enough.

Another thing I noticed is that ftm seems to be much more accepted, lesbians seems to be accepted much more than gays as well.

ftm, if picked upon, is for being "sissy boys".
mtf are more regarded as freaks and other cruel things. which I am sure most people here can think about themselves,.

As far as I understand, ftm are having everything much easier except for their surgical creation of the sexual organ which they say is much less than satisfying and the real one.

mtf usually (there are exceptions) have a very hard time with pretty much everything, but their sexual organ surgery is quite advanced and satisfying if you go to the right doctor.

I doubt much will be done for this community for the problems I mentioned any time soon, which is a shame.
Maybe one of their best hopes is advancements in cyborg technology and in stem cells engineering so they can replace bones.

Another thing I noticed is foot size and hands size, though I am not su`re if it's related to height or not.. as well as rest of the body frame, then again I know women at the same height and have much different shoe sizes, yet I rarely know women with shoe size 46 (EU sizing) so!

[valkyrie_ice]

snipped for length.

And you just basically explained why I am waiting for better techniques. I was sure of the fact I was female at the young age of eight. I had always been bothered by the fact that I just did not fit in with any boys I knew, and always got along perfectly with girls. I got picked on for playing with dolls, playing girl games, and hanging out with my female cousins.

So at nine, when my parents took me to a shrink to deal with my "socialization problems" I casually mentioned my feelings about wondering if I was really a girl inside. I got shot down quicker than you could blink, told by the shrink that I couldn't possibly be a girl because I was a boy, and all my feelings were due to my not learning how to fit in. I learned then and there that nobody cared how I felt. I was just there to make my parents feel better.

So I dealt with the knowledge of who I really was all through puberty, as I grew from a smaller than normal boy to a effing 6'5" giant built like a frigging line backer. By the time I was 18 I was reading psychology journals on Gender Dysphoria, and I knew that I was a near textbook case of Transexual except for one small thing. I'm Bi, with strong female oriented tendencies, but have just as much fun with guys sexually. I just deal with girls far better relationshipwise.

But to the beliefs of the late eighties, early nineties, the fact that I was female oriented meant I couldn't REALLY be transexual, obviously I was just suffering a misplaced Oedipus complex, and really was a guy, just not wanting to admit I hated my mother.

No, my mother can be a typical religious hypocrite, but I have never really HATED her, I just find her to be hypocritical, uneducated in many feild, and too willing to let her pastor tell her what to think. But I couldn't convince my doctor of that when I went to counseling following my failed marriage.

So I have had to live a life as a gorilla, stuck doing security work, bouncing, and other menial jobs because when people look at a 6'5" linebacker, they automatically think "Dumb as a box of rocks."

And I am stuck in a body that no amount of current surgical techniques will EVER make look feminine. I finally gave up trying until such a time as full body DNA therapy, full body resculpting, and cloned organs are available.

And thats just for the Transexual part. Try telling a doctor you're not even human, but have wings, tail, hooves, horns and fangs in all you dreams, well they usually want to give you a nice room in a padded cell.

Yeah, I've been transhuman since before they even invented the word.

So I can't wait till things improve. Then maybe my nightmare can finally end.

[Luna]

I think it's amazing you're being open about it, most people would probably leave in fear of being freaks or something, I think you are really brave.

how old are you? I really hope there is going to be a way to fix it any time soon, or if not soon, at least life extension so you will get to the era that has it.
Although it must be really hard to wait for it, maybe almost as hard as wondering if you will stay alive (probably really hard but if you stay alive you know you will get the other thing eventunally, though I am sure it is a living nightmare for you!)



I think it shows a lot about how ignorant people can be when regarding the "norms" of our society and "nature" and how sometimes the medical services are just making more harm than good.