135 replies to this topic

[valkyrie_ice]

Bodybuildiers are weird species.. and men!

What exactly strikes you as weird here ?
The idea of using a substance to increase your height/build ?

that people want 50 inch rib cages and 2 meter tallness O_o I wouldn't date that!

I have a 44 inch ribcage and I'm 6'5"

Now imagine me in Stiletto heels XD

Any wonder why I say no amount of surgery is going to work without major medical improvements?

[Luna]

O_o

Smaller lungs,heart, liver,kidney transplants, shortening of the bones and maybe spine/legs, shaving of the bones thickness... everywhere? and ta da!

I really hope they will manage to build you a cyborg body and somehow transfer your brain to it or something.. but when do you think such technology will happen?

[Shannon Vyff]

Some growth hormones are male hormones, there are a lot of male hormones and women have male, male have womens etc. Plus some men would rather be shorter and more muscular rather than tall and skinny, although overtime I'm sure we'll see more acceptance of the use of hormones to self select gender qualities one wants. On cyborg bodies, I'd put 700 to a 1000 years on it ;-), I set my book "21st Century Kids" 200 years in the future but I combined a lot of things that I think will be happening at very different stages. I could be proved wrong, and hope to be but just looking at how slowly culture changes over time, even incorporating the vast change we've had over the last 50 and 100 years--speeding that up for the next several hundred years, I think we will take at least 500 years to end aging--but generally think we'll need to go through generations of change and technological breakthrough before we can attempt to realize much of what science foresees as someday possible now.

[valkyrie_ice]

Seriously I have to disagree, Shannon.

We're likely about 3 to five years from full visual/auditory VR becoming commonplace. Probably less than ten from full cybernetic replacements of arms and legs. A full body replacement is probably no more than 25.

I study emerging technology. I especially study prosthetics. In the last year I have seen some incredible technological advances in these fields.

Rebuilding my entire body from scratch is going to take a few decades, but I expect it by 2035 or there about.

Considering the emerging technology to create entire cloned organs on demand, which I forsee being viable by 2020, a lot of cosmetic surgery that is impossible today will be far more possible by next decade.

I actually foresee becoming a Virtual Persona first, an Avatar overlaying my normal appearance in augmented reality displays. By the mid twenties, I see having my hips widened somewhat (much easier that replacing my entire upper body) with a chromosome switched cloned vagina and uterus, a cybernetic tail attachment, prosthetic hooves and wings, and artificial rams horns. Breasts will be a mix of stem cell enhancements and hormones, teeth and ears simple cosmetics, and improved variations of standard plastic surgery to take care of other details.

By 2035, I will be able to reshape the prosthetics into actual genegineered clone limbs.

By around 2040, I MIGHT be able to create a fully genegineered clone body to which a full brain transplant could be possible, but I would not want to be a early adopter of such tech. So maybe by 2045.

And this all presupposes that fully functional nanotechnology isn't perfected within that time frame.

Genetic engineering is going to advance by leaps and bounds over the next decade, to the point that DNA will become the equivalent of a programming language. Gene modeling is going to become something computers can render and prototype prior to actual synthetic organism creation within about 15 years. It will start with bacteria, and grow into more complex systems over the next decade following. It might happen faster than that, it might take longer.

We are too close to "cyberpunk" style cybernetic prosthetics right now to find a 700 to 1000 year timeline realistic. At WORST case, 30 to 40 years would be probable, with my estimate, based on the pace of development over the last ten years, to be 10-15.

Technology doesn't really care much about the pace of social change. Considering how much it has forced us to adapt in just the last ten years, social change is going to be forced on us for good or ill. I happen to think it will be good, but it will still be extremely tumultuous, and very bewildering for those who don't understand what is happening. The Republican party is suffering from this sort of disorientation right now.

I once thought nanotech would never happen in my lifetime. that was twenty years ago. Now I see new developments on a nearly daily basis. As a computer tech, just the developments in the last five years have become hard to keep up with. We are about the hit the knee on so many technological curves I can barely keep up and this is something I spend some part of every day tracking.

I started out as a sci-fi writer too. I set my story almost a million years in the future, but had to abandon that, because in studying the advances in science, I came to realize I couldn't even make realistic predictions for a hundred years from now or even fifty.

Culture changed slowly because only a small percentage of the population was advancing knowledge rather than living hand to mouth existences. When we institutionalized science, we tossed that slow pace out the window. We have hundreds of thousands of scientists for every one that existed just a hundred years ago. And we have a population at large of non specialists who can devote time to hobby research who also make enormous contributions to our knowledge base. That effectively makes for a compression of progress that is thousands of times faster than it has ever been in all of established history, with that pace growing daily.

Edited by valkyrie_ice, 21 October 2009 - 09:47 PM.

[Luna]

I met a trans woman at the doctor few days ago, I just wanted to say I really hope you (val) and her will get their situation fixed right.

She was probably 190-200 cm tall, quite big framed, she went for it anyways, people seemed nice to her but hearing her voice, I am sure she wasn't happy.

I am not sure how real the VR coming in 3-5 years is, and I am not sure how public it will be, but personally, I think a reality kind of solution is more important.

I really hope your estimates are right, aren't you like 40-50? life must be really hard and scary for you.

I must say that personally, I don't feel technology is hard to keep up with, it all feels normal, new is just faster versions of old and/or with more options.
Most amazing technology we hear of is either far in the lab or in theories right now, even they seem quite normal already, before they arrived, but that might be a personality thing.

So I really hope you are right and you will be fine, and other people in your condition.
I seem to have quite a few ones being treated regularly by my own doctor.

I admit it can bring mixed feelings, it can bring fear, of the thought that you could end up like that too (physically), and you don't really like what you see, it can be repelling to be around those people, and it's not their fault, and I am sorry that this is the kind of feelings I felt when I should probably know better about the subject

Edited by Luna, 29 October 2009 - 10:58 AM.

[valkyrie_ice]

I met a trans woman at the doctor few days ago, I just wanted to say I really hope you (val) and her will get their situation fixed right.

She was probably 190-200 cm tall, quite big framed, she went for it anyways, people seemed nice to her but hearing her voice, I am sure she wasn't happy.

I am not sure how real the VR coming in 3-5 years is, and I am not sure how public it will be, but personally, I think a reality kind of solution is more important.

I really hope your estimates are right, aren't you like 40-50? life must be really hard and scary for you.

I must say that personally, I don't feel technology is hard to keep up with, it all feels normal, new is just faster versions of old and/or with more options.
Most amazing technology we hear of is either far in the lab or in theories right now, even they seem quite normal already, before they arrived, but that might be a personality thing.

So I really hope you are right and you will be fine, and other people in your condition.
I seem to have quite a few ones being treated regularly by my own doctor.

I admit it can bring mixed feelings, it can bring fear, of the thought that you could end up like that too (physically), and you don't really like what you see, it can be repelling to be around those people, and it's not their fault, and I am sorry that this is the kind of feelings I felt when I should probably know better about the subject

It's quite normal, but when you look back...

Yes I am 40 as of the 14th of this month. I was born the same year we landed on the moon and the internet was invented. So believe me when I say I have been keeping track for a long time. I was here when they made the first video game. The First Apple, the First IBM 8088. I owned a Commodore 64 SX the first portable computer. I owned an Amiga. I built my own 386 486 and Pentium's 1-4.

And I just read that a 100 core CPU was developed. 100 486's on a single chip. They can now print circuits with an inkjet. A Droid cellphone can do everything my Pentium laptop can and then some.

I was in high school when Nanotech was given a name. I will live to see it become a reality.

Now is scary. Now and the next 10-15 years will be some of the scariest times in our history as radical change begins occurring ever faster. The Crazy Years are just starting, and it's all uphill struggle from here, but the end is in sight and the goal is clear.

And your last paragraph is exactly why I want better technology developed ASAP. I don't want to look like a freak. I already do. I'm a succubus, my vanity demands I make jaws drop XDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Luna]

I searched for things related to bone regeneration and found this title and thought it might interest val.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16575914

Although maybe not, I had hard time to understand it.. if it's interesting feel free to translate it to simple english ^^

[Luna]

Unrelated, I found this article at my searches ^^
http://www.physorg.c...s174731260.html

[valkyrie_ice]

http://www.wired.com...is-engineering/

This is both funny and hopeful at the same time.

Funny, because of course they would figure out how to grow a penis first *sigh* next it's going to be growing them to be bigger, then the whole new trend of penis enlargement surgery, and so on, forget about the fact that it will allow F2M to be functional males. It'll be all about giving guys bigger dicks just like breast implants, originally made to replace breasts lost due to cancer, became all about giving girls bigger breasts.

Hopeful, because it won't be long before they are growing female parts too.

Add in this technology, advances in stems cell research, that bone growing tech, and maybe I'll have the ability to get a biological tail sooner than I think too XD

[Luna]

What do you mean?

As far as I understand from Lazarus Long earlier post and from readings, they can already make realistic female parts (vagina), and still can't make a penis so I am, not sure about what you are saying.

[valkyrie_ice]

What do you mean?

As far as I understand from Lazarus Long earlier post and from readings, they can already make realistic female parts (vagina), and still can't make a penis so I am, not sure about what you are saying.

They can make a vagina.

period. No clitoris, no uterus, no ovaries

just a hole.

That's not realistic in my book.


If they can grow a penis with fully functional nerves and nerve connections, which this article suggests, then next on the list would be full sex organs. I.E Penis, testicles etc.

once that is done, next step is chromosomal switching. i.e. XX to XY enabling gender swapped thereputic cloning. Fully male organs releasing male hormones and generating genetically matched sperm.

Next step is fully functional female internal anatomy.

[Luna]

From the reading they make a clitoris too!

Google found this:
http://www.suporncli...STechnique.aspx

http://www.suporncli...RS/Results.aspx

I think it looks just wow O_o some girls have less pretty looking vaginas than that

[valkyrie_ice]

From the reading they make a clitoris too!

Google found this:
http://www.suporncli...STechnique.aspx

http://www.suporncli...RS/Results.aspx

I think it looks just wow O_o some girls have less pretty looking vaginas than that

Humm, need to actually get around to researching how advanced it's gotten since I originally researched it. Haven't been keeping up with the state of the art in cosmetics since I'm more interested in full gender change. I note it's something thats occured since I did my research in the mid nineties. I also note it's not american either. Most of the best sex reassignment studies do not occur in the US that I've noted.

Thanks for the link XD

Edited by valkyrie_ice, 10 November 2009 - 10:44 AM.

[Luna]

What do you actually thing that will happen in the next 20 years that you feel so positive?
I am asking because I am curious.

I don't exactly see how you might go to a surgeon and say "make my pelvis wider and feminine" O_o

I am one of those who have hard time to believe in uploading.. and doesn't like the idea of replacing limbs and flesh with metal (or see how good it's going to work in 20 years)

What is your plan?

[valkyrie_ice]

What do you actually thing that will happen in the next 20 years that you feel so positive?
I am asking because I am curious.

I don't exactly see how you might go to a surgeon and say "make my pelvis wider and feminine" O_o

I am one of those who have hard time to believe in uploading.. and doesn't like the idea of replacing limbs and flesh with metal (or see how good it's going to work in 20 years)

What is your plan?

Widening the hips could be done today, but would be risky. Given the technologies I've read about bone growth, possibly within ten years they may be able to widen my hips as a cosmetic surgery instead of major surgery, but most likely within 15.

Add in the kind of organ growing being researched now, I give 10 years before we will see F2M with fully functional male organs, M2F soon after. basically 5 years to growing full replacements, five more for chromosome flipping.

Bone and organ printing may enable bio cosmetic surgery at possibly any point in time 5 to 10 years from now, but I'm betting 10-15 for practicality. Mixed with genotyping of numerous species, and massive data mining, all that genetic material may result in a grasp of DNA vocabulary, basically a basic language of DNA, this sequence does this, this sequence does that sorta thing, we may even be able to code for a tail, hooves, wings etc, clone grow them in an organ printer, attach them to the appropriate spots with sufficient stem cells to allow the needed connecting tissues, and possibly within 25 to 30 years a full bio modded version of me may be possible.

Basically considering the advances in just this year, combined with my knowledge of plans to map enormous numbers of species into a massive dna database, combined with the kind of processing power coming out in the labs soon, an awareness of massive data mining programs running on billions of data points and finding patterns, and the fact that someone is likely to translate that massive data pattern into a program to model DNA interactions and dictate a dna coding to achieve a particular effect, and barring the development of Nanotech and Cybertech, I can see a path for it occurring inside of 30 years.

Throw both Nanotech and Cybertech, it could happen in the same time frame, or any time beyond about 10 years.

[Luna]

How will they widen a pelvis?
Isn't it super invasive?

Are you sure about 15 years for that? that sounds a bit.. wishful for many things.. I mean if they can do that, will we be able to regrow a full hand at the time?

What makes you believe that?

Hopefully it's all true, people without legs could walk with legs and not weird robotics ^^

[Luna]

Will we be able to fly with those wings? aren't we too heavy? :D

Won't we get too tired, fall and break our bones?

I remember this post:
http://hplusbiopolit...t-i-have-wings/
^^

I want wings :D would probably skip the tail and hooves!

Edited by Luna, 10 November 2009 - 04:52 PM.

[valkyrie_ice]

How will they widen a pelvis?
Isn't it super invasive?

Are you sure about 15 years for that? that sounds a bit.. wishful for many things.. I mean if they can do that, will we be able to regrow a full hand at the time?

What makes you believe that?

Hopefully it's all true, people without legs could walk with legs and not weird robotics ^^

Same way they do an extension to a shortened leg. The bone is cut, a brace is applied to keep the separation and bone growth is encouraged. It is incredibly invasive, requires multiple surgeries, and years last I checked.

However, current research is enabling new bone growth technologies, less invasive surgical techniques are being pioneered, stem cell research into accelerating bone restoration is in the lab, and there is even a "bone printer" that was recently used to recreate someones missing thumb.

That was all news items I have read THIS YEAR.

They have also used stem cells to encourage nerves to regrow, discovered a way to integrate electronic circuits directly to nerve tissue and bypass damaged nerves, and are studying way to enable humans to regenerate like newts and starfish.

I don't expect much for the next 5-10 years, but later this decade I think we are going to be seeing a landslide effect as new techniques based on the perfected research in labs right now come to mainstream use.

[valkyrie_ice]

Will we be able to fly with those wings? aren't we too heavy? :D

Won't we get too tired, fall and break our bones?

I remember this post:
http://hplusbiopolit...t-i-have-wings/
^^

I want wings :D would probably skip the tail and hooves!

If the wings are designed to be used for gliding, and lock in full extension it might be possible. However, to make fully active flight possible for a human, cybernetic muscle and rib cage reinforcement would be needed. Or nanotech which could create superstrong muscle, as well as re-engineer the entire body to replace heavy calcium with a carbon composite.

The problem I have with most naysayers in what will be possible is that they always make assumptions about single technologies. Yes, using current biological tissue, active flight would be impossible. even radical bioengineering would not result in the "angel" human who could fly, but a human bird hybrid. To make an "angel" we're going to need Cybernetics and Nanotech.

[Luna]

O_o

Not sure how printing a whole bone and transplanting it is less invasive than limb lengthening..
Besides, isn't the pelvis connected to the spine and a lot of nerves? they both sounds just dangerous.

I read an article about making limbs longer, they did it to a woman who was really short, she grew about 12cm taller I think.
But legs are pretty straight! pelvis is a very complex structure, with many different shaped bones! and some of the bones probably grew different in shape already that a whole reconstruction would be needed, that doesn't sound that straight forward as treating a short leg. - Not to mention it's connected to the spine, or is part of it? (Sacrum bone)

Why not just use fat injections or silicon injections for now :D

[valkyrie_ice]

O_o

Not sure how printing a whole bone and transplanting it is less invasive than limb lengthening..
Besides, isn't the pelvis connected to the spine and a lot of nerves? they both sounds just dangerous.

I read an article about making limbs longer, they did it to a woman who was really short, she grew about 12cm taller I think.
But legs are pretty straight! pelvis is a very complex structure, with many different shaped bones! and some of the bones probably grew different in shape already that a whole reconstruction would be needed, that doesn't sound that straight forward as treating a short leg. - Not to mention it's connected to the spine, or is part of it? (Sacrum bone)

Why not just use fat injections or silicon injections for now :D

If I was getting it done now, I probably would.

however, I will need a wider pelvis if I decide to have a child, so it will eventually be needed. Again, today it would be quite dangerous, possibly resulting in lower body paralysis. Thats part of why I follow med tech so much. XD

As for the printing, they printed a thumb bone framework, then used stem cells to grow the whole thumb for reattachment.

[valkyrie_ice]

http://hplusmagazine...ind-and-machine

here you go Luna, current info on state of the art Prosthetics.

of special interest I recommend watching the video of Aimee Mullins. At 6:24 you will find a pic of her as a catgirl, complete with prosthetic "paws"



Now, combine a "smart hand" with an articulated leg ending in a cloven hoof instead of a human foot. I could have my hooves in five or six years if I am willing to amputate my legs. Combine that same tech with a prosthetic tail, and I could have those as well.

Essentially, piece by piece, the tech is becoming reality. Once prosthetics have become good enough to match human ability (which should be obvious will be within just a few years) it will not be long before they surpass simple human ability. and as Aimee makes clear in the video, the conversation is changing from just replacement to enhancement.

That cat girl is a makeup job now. In ten years it will be someone's actual appearance. In twenty it might even be a genetically inheritable species/race.

And I WILL be a succubus someday XD

[Luna]

Ohh my boyfriend told me about the hand which can feel few days ago.


But I still find it hard to imagine how they replace a whole body.
And I am really afraid every time someone tells me "brain transplant", seems 10000% more risky than complicated operations like the pelvis thingy we talked about.

Lucky I am not in as much trouble as you are! but I'd love wings :D preferably foldable one :D
I guess once it's available, everyone will want to perfect their look and experiment with things, I sure won't mind being a cat for a day or two :D

Makes me like ghost in the shell :D

Edited by Luna, 21 November 2009 - 06:31 AM.

[Luna]

I am a bit confused.
Several times I read or saw videos about artificial limbs, like hands. Many times it is said "It is controlled by thought, I think of closing the hand and it closes"
But what does it mean? do you need to think "close hand" or is it as natural as we close our hands?

It's pretty clumsy and frustrating to think "open" "close" "move right" "stop" in my opinion O_o

I still haven't seen the new videos here, at dad's house, bad internet and computer :/

[valkyrie_ice]

I am a bit confused.
Several times I read or saw videos about artificial limbs, like hands. Many times it is said "It is controlled by thought, I think of closing the hand and it closes"
But what does it mean? do you need to think "close hand" or is it as natural as we close our hands?

It's pretty clumsy and frustrating to think "open" "close" "move right" "stop" in my opinion O_o

I still haven't seen the new videos here, at dad's house, bad internet and computer :/

It's essentially just like using your hand. the nerve impulses from the brain are sent to the hand just like normal. it's just along the way the nerve turns electronic.

[Luna]

I am a bit confused.
Several times I read or saw videos about artificial limbs, like hands. Many times it is said "It is controlled by thought, I think of closing the hand and it closes"
But what does it mean? do you need to think "close hand" or is it as natural as we close our hands?

It's pretty clumsy and frustrating to think "open" "close" "move right" "stop" in my opinion O_o

I still haven't seen the new videos here, at dad's house, bad internet and computer :/

It's essentially just like using your hand. the nerve impulses from the brain are sent to the hand just like normal. it's just along the way the nerve turns electronic.

I am not too convinced.. I mean, when he was talking, his new hand was barely even moving.
I think it is kinda rare for someone not to move a hand or finger at all when speaking. and it still looked kinda un-natural when he did move it.

[valkyrie_ice]

I am a bit confused.
Several times I read or saw videos about artificial limbs, like hands. Many times it is said "It is controlled by thought, I think of closing the hand and it closes"
But what does it mean? do you need to think "close hand" or is it as natural as we close our hands?

It's pretty clumsy and frustrating to think "open" "close" "move right" "stop" in my opinion O_o

I still haven't seen the new videos here, at dad's house, bad internet and computer :/

It's essentially just like using your hand. the nerve impulses from the brain are sent to the hand just like normal. it's just along the way the nerve turns electronic.

I am not too convinced.. I mean, when he was talking, his new hand was barely even moving.
I think it is kinda rare for someone not to move a hand or finger at all when speaking. and it still looked kinda un-natural when he did move it.

It's not as sensitive as it will hopefully be once they have fine tuned it. I believe right now it's at the stage where they are roughly equivalent to someone moving a numb hand, not precise, but impulses are doing what they are supposed too. With improvements in the number of feedback circuits, closer tying in of nerve impulses to specific motions, it's going to improve rapidly. The main hurdle of nerve to electronic communication has been passed.

basically, it's at the usb 1.0 stage. give it a few years to get to usb 2.0

[Luna]

^^ neat

[Johann]

I'm sorry, I don't really care if she was born with a penis.

When someone has a sex change surgery, the proper thing is to address them and deal with them in their new/chosen/real gender.

The proper thing? Some people may disagree with you.

[niner]

I'm sorry, I don't really care if she was born with a penis.

When someone has a sex change surgery, the proper thing is to address them and deal with them in their new/chosen/real gender.

The proper thing? Some people may disagree with you.

On what basis? How would they have us address the person?