13 replies to this topic

[gerhard]

Hello,

If you have read my recent posts, you can see a list of my stack. But basically it has Wellbutrin, DLPA and Tyrosine as the dopamine-boosting agents, while incorporating a number of herbal/natural supplements in order to address things like serotonin and GABA. This is of course in addition to your typical vitamins, fish oils, etc.

For one day in particular, but for about five days overall, after being on Wellbutrin for about two weeks, I was wonderful; working productively, happily, improving, lots of great ideas.

But now an impulse in the opposite direction has come, with frightening intensity. I have gone blank and been troubled with constant suicidal thoughts.

This perplexes me tremendously - everything about my prior condition suggested a dopamine deficiency. Shouldn't this have addressed the problem perfectly?

So in addition to now having to completely restart my entire course of self-directed treatment, it is obvious that I must wean myself off of all nootropics/supplements, save the vitamins, fish oil, and CDP-choline -- at least until I am back to "normal." But of course my normal was not working either, so now I do not know what I will do in the long run....

Please -

Can someone outline a schedule for scaling back my Wellbutrin and other substances so that I do not suffer withdrawal, which would only worsen my present condition?

I was on 300mg Wellbutrin, but have scaled that back to 150mg in the past few days - as the benefits were wearing off and confusion and anhedonia were just beginning to set in. For how many more days should I take 150mg? And then how many at 75mg? And then should I go from 75mg to 0 - or something else in-between?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read and to offer your advice. I appreciate your help.

[acantelopepope]

Hello,

If you have read my recent posts, you can see a list of my stack. But basically it has Wellbutrin, DLPA and Tyrosine as the dopamine-boosting agents, while incorporating a number of herbal/natural supplements in order to address things like serotonin and GABA. This is of course in addition to your typical vitamins, fish oils, etc.

For one day in particular, but for about five days overall, after being on Wellbutrin for about two weeks, I was wonderful; working productively, happily, improving, lots of great ideas.

But now an impulse in the opposite direction has come, with frightening intensity. I have gone blank and been troubled with constant suicidal thoughts.

This perplexes me tremendously - everything about my prior condition suggested a dopamine deficiency. Shouldn't this have addressed the problem perfectly?

So in addition to now having to completely restart my entire course of self-directed treatment, it is obvious that I must wean myself off of all nootropics/supplements, save the vitamins, fish oil, and CDP-choline -- at least until I am back to "normal." But of course my normal was not working either, so now I do not know what I will do in the long run....

Please -

Can someone outline a schedule for scaling back my Wellbutrin and other substances so that I do not suffer withdrawal, which would only worsen my present condition?

I was on 300mg Wellbutrin, but have scaled that back to 150mg in the past few days - as the benefits were wearing off and confusion and anhedonia were just beginning to set in. For how many more days should I take 150mg? And then how many at 75mg? And then should I go from 75mg to 0 - or something else in-between?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read and to offer your advice. I appreciate your help.

I can understand the desperateness of your situation. Really. But I don't have alot of time, so here is my short-term advice based on your list.

Sulbutiamine -Stop taking this.
Chocamine -Stop taking this.
Piracetam/Aniracetam/Oxiracetam combination (primarily Pir) - Try taking 400mg piracetam for now. You don't have to be genius boy right now... deal with depression first.
Choline (CDP and and Alpha GPC) -- I don't know about CDP, but with AGPC, my rec. is you take no more than 300mg (100%) or 600mg (50%). Trust me.
Wellbutrin (300mg) - Continue taking this for now. Like it or not, this is probably helping you the most right now, but the other supps are interfering with it.
Rhodiola Rosea - Keep taking it. It's a good supp, as long as the source is ok.
Suma - don't know about it- if it's supposed to be a psychotropic, ditch it. same goes for the others I don't know about.
Eleuthero
Schisandra
Ashwagandha - This should be okay. don't dose too high or you'll get tired.
Calcium Pantothenate
Potassium Iodine
Copper
Manganese
L-Tyrosine - ditch this completely, as long as you're on wellbutrin.
Guggul
DLPA - ditch this completely, as it's just one step above tyrosine.
N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine
Fish Oil - make sure you're getting a good 3-6-9 ratio. Keep taking this.
Multivitamins - Stick with a good one. I like NSI 3000 from Vitacost.com.

The most important thing is to cut out the dopamine precursors and stick with the wellbutrin... and get exercise. I mean this. Do these things and then re-evaluate. Best of luck.

[gerhard]

Hi,

Thanks very much for your reply, I will implement your suggestions immediately.

So you suggest that I return to 300mg of Wellbutrin, and not continue at 150mg?

Curiously, I find my mood and energy to improve in the hours after taking sulbutiamine and DLPA - but of course this is reversed shortly thereafter.

[acantelopepope]

Hi,

Thanks very much for your reply, I will implement your suggestions immediately.

So you suggest that I return to 300mg of Wellbutrin, and not continue at 150mg?

Curiously, I find my mood and energy to improve in the hours after taking sulbutiamine and DLPA - but of course this is reversed shortly thereafter.

The boost you get from sulbutiamine is at best temporary. Since it cannot be used on a daily basis, right now you should not be depending on it. The DLPA might be effective for treating mild dysthymia (depression), but my experience is that it will not relieve major depression, and it will in fact cause irritation, confusion, and worse depression if you take it with Wellbutrin. I'm not completely sure why, but this is my experience. Another thing you should watch out for is taking too much choline. Too much acetylcholine antagonizes your dopamine (to oversimplify). Therefore, supplementing with choline and using piracetam could be making you feel worse. This was the case for me a few months ago. It got to the point where my tissues were so saturated with choline that even eating an egg made me feel noticeably worse.

If you want to spend some money on a couple supplements that will in most certainty help you out right now... Try 1.) Bacopa and 2.) L-Theanine.

Don't get me wrong, wellbutrin will not make you feel better forever. But hopefully it will relieve a lot of the pain you're feeling right now, so that you can find your way into the right environment and the right cognitive mindset to be happy pill free. If you wanted to know, I'm still on this path myself... so I guess I have a special sympathy for those who are experiencing similar... difficulties

And if I haven't said it enough already, GET EXERCISE. This will balance your hormones, neurotransmitters, oxygenate your blood, lift your spirits, improve your self image.. etc.--- If you're not in good shape it doesn't matter, just go for a hike with an iPod or a friend. If you can handle a long jog or swim or bike ride, do that-- ideally it would last 45-90 minutes to get the best biological response. There's a reason that long distance runners have been found to have very very low rates of depression. I mean it in the best way when I say GET OFF YOUR ASS. RIGHT NOW! STOP READING WEBSITES, CHECKING EMAIL, AND WORRYING... and go!.

[gerhard]

Hello Cantelope Pope!

Thank you for your reply!

Okay, today I will take the 300mg of Wellbutrin, with nothing else considered specifically a nootropic.

I get exercise, yes! I run often - no iPod though.

I have some Bacopa already but haven't put it into pills yet; I'll do that today.

I have no Theanine, but I do have a lot of tea, so I'll start drinking twice as much until I can order some Theanine

Okay, thanks again, goodbye!

[acantelopepope]

Hello Cantelope Pope!

Thank you for your reply!

Okay, today I will take the 300mg of Wellbutrin, with nothing else considered specifically a nootropic.

I get exercise, yes! I run often - no iPod though.

I have some Bacopa already but haven't put it into pills yet; I'll do that today.

I have no Theanine, but I do have a lot of tea, so I'll start drinking twice as much until I can order some Theanine

Okay, thanks again, goodbye!

Gerhard, how are you doing?

[ajnast4r]

if youre having suicidal thought you should discontinue all supplements other than wellbutrin and see a medical professional immediately.

you should not be taking ANY herbal extracts w/ welbutrin.. quite a few of the supplements you listed effect da and ne levels...who even knows how they may interact, especially with regards to cytochrome inhibit or induction... this is exactly why you shouldnt self medicate.

...

your recommendations are EXTREMELY irresponsible

Edited by ajnast4r, 22 October 2009 - 02:55 AM.

[Pike]

Eating a healthy and balanced diet, outdoor time, exercise, and PROPER SLEEP will probably help the most.

Too many cholinergics can lead to depression, and you're taking cdp-choline AND alpha-gpc, the two strongest ACh precursors available on the market in relatively large doses for a young person, COMBINED w/an ACh promoting agent like the racetams, multiple at that.

As for the wellbutrin, I would expect that its effects wear off after 2 weeks, because 2 weeks is about the time it takes for the medication to build up in your system. After that, it may start to feel like it's subsiding a bit, but understand that antidepressants don't really take clinically significant effect until 6 weeks of continuous use, and don't reach full effect until 3 months of continuous use. As a side note, Wellbutrin is anti-cholinergic. I imagine some of this anti-cholinergic effect is probably the only thing keeping you from major-depression. Unfortunately, MANY herbs interact with the cytochrome-p450 enzyme series, and bupropion is metabolized via the p450 system. Right now, you're taking 5 different herbs, one of which I know has massive p450 inhibition activity to the point where it is used in liver treatment.



This is what I mean when I say "more is not better" in nootropics. Tinker too much and you'll end up with more problems than you started. In your case you've tinkered yourself right into suicidal depression, which is beyond what anyone on this board is qualified to treat.

[acantelopepope]

if youre having suicidal thought you should discontinue all supplements other than wellbutrin and see a medical professional immediately.

you should not be taking ANY herbal extracts w/ welbutrin.. quite a few of the supplements you listed effect da and ne levels...who even knows how they may interact, especially with regards to cytochrome inhibit or induction... this is exactly why you shouldnt self medicate.

...

your recommendations are EXTREMELY irresponsible

You're an idiot.

Whoever he is, there's no doubt he's going to do more than post on an internet forum to deal with these problems, particularly the troubling suicidal thoughts. I recognized that he was taking too many supplements and told him to discontinue or scale way back, based on my personal knowledge of them. Nothing on this board is medical advice, and in this instance, I am an individual giving my opinion on what supplements provide comfort during deep depressions. What Pike said about the P450 enzyme is new to me, and I would give different recommendations based on this new information. My advice likely kept him from losing his mind with all the extra choline and sulbutiamine and chocamine. What I told him may be okay to continue were MUCH safer alternatives.

[drmz]

if youre having suicidal thought you should discontinue all supplements other than wellbutrin and see a medical professional immediately.

you should not be taking ANY herbal extracts w/ welbutrin.. quite a few of the supplements you listed effect da and ne levels...who even knows how they may interact, especially with regards to cytochrome inhibit or induction... this is exactly why you shouldnt self medicate.

...

your recommendations are EXTREMELY irresponsible

You're an idiot.

Whoever he is, there's no doubt he's going to do more than post on an internet forum to deal with these problems, particularly the troubling suicidal thoughts. I recognized that he was taking too many supplements and told him to discontinue or scale way back, based on my personal knowledge of them. Nothing on this board is medical advice, and in this instance, I am an individual giving my opinion on what supplements provide comfort during deep depressions. What Pike said about the P450 enzyme is new to me, and I would give different recommendations based on this new information. My advice likely kept him from losing his mind with all the extra choline and sulbutiamine and chocamine. What I told him may be okay to continue were MUCH safer alternatives.

The following sentence had to be enough to give no recommendation at all and give the advice anjnast4r gave, namely see a docter asap > But now an impulse in the opposite direction has come, with frightening intensity. I have gone blank and been troubled with constant suicidal thoughts.

[alexd]

I would like to suggest you get some folic acid and take about 4 caps a day. I was a taking Deplin which really helped. Unfortunatly my insurance would not pay for it.So I tried taking large doses of folic acid in the hope that it might work as well. It does help. An estimated 20-50% of people have some level of dificulty digesting folic . Deplin is the final step of the process which is l methyfolate. This goes right through to the brain. The high doses of folic seem to work for me. It is cheap and if you do not have the problem it does nothing. When I stated taking Deplin I was able to reduce the dosages of what I was taking by 50%. Deplin is effective but I pay about 46 dollars which is a lot mo0re than the dollar or so I apy for folic Good luck.

[matthias7]

Wow... this is out of my league for sure.

Go straight to ssri seek help. Wellbutrin I wouldn't touch the dosage till you've stabilized. Its a serotonin problem. ssri will run against dnri, then scale back. Ditch Piracetam and choline thats the biggest risk factor.

[Lufega]

I used Wellbutrin back in 2003-2004 and stopped after listening to a radio report that it can cause suicidal tendencies. Incidentally, I was also having suicidal tendencies and couldn't figure out the cause. I wasn't using any supplements at the time. Take a break from ALL your supplements and go for long walks several times a day. Walking helps get your mind off things, aside from the cardiovascular benefit.

Add Magnesium, at least 600 mg per day. Instead of Wellbutrin, have you considered Lithium Orotate?? Very effective for depression and anhedonia. I recently stopped using Lith for a couple of weeks and depression came back like madness!

How much manganese are you using?

[some guy]

And if I haven't said it enough already, GET EXERCISE. This will balance your hormones, neurotransmitters, oxygenate your blood, lift your spirits, improve your self image.. etc.--- If you're not in good shape it doesn't matter, just go for a hike with an iPod or a friend. If you can handle a long jog or swim or bike ride, do that-- ideally it would last 45-90 minutes to get the best biological response. There's a reason that long distance runners have been found to have very very low rates of depression. I mean it in the best way when I say GET OFF YOUR ASS. RIGHT NOW! STOP READING WEBSITES, CHECKING EMAIL, AND WORRYING... and go!.

I disagree with this statement, while it's very good for you to exercise, it's been proven that prolonged cardio increases cortisol, which in turn can worsen the depression. Don't get me wrong I LOVE cardio more than anybody else, and I hate lifting weights. I was waaay overdoing cardio to lose weight. I did from 1-3 hours everyday plus reduced food intake. I did lose a lot of weight fast, but at the cost. My libido went down hard, and I got increased cortisol which paired with all the extra cortisol from work and personal life stress, brought on serious depression. I'm kinda out of it now though.

Experts recommend no more than 45 minutes of cardio three days a week.