35 replies to this topic

[2tender]

I had tried Quercetin before, but got immediate sides and discontinued. After doing some research and the appearance of a premium pre-emulsified Quercetin product from a vendor that I trust I decided to give it a go. Im 2 days in on it and have experienced an energy lift and exacerbation of an elbow tendinitis flare-up, similar to taking an NSAID. Probably to early to tell really. Has anyone else had similar experiences with the addition of Quercetin to their Resveratrol?

[maxwatt]

I had tried Quercetin before, but got immediate sides and discontinued. After doing some research and the appearance of a premium pre-emulsified Quercetin product from a vendor that I trust I decided to give it a go. Im 2 days in on it and have experienced an energy lift and exacerbation of an elbow tendinitis flare-up, similar to taking an NSAID. Probably to early to tell really. Has anyone else had similar experiences with the addition of Quercetin to their Resveratrol?

Joint or tendon pain. Discontinued.

[2tender]

Thanks for your comment here Maxwatt! Glad you're back and feeling a little better everyday!

[JLL]

I don't notice anything from taking quercetin.

[drmz]

I had tried Quercetin before, but got immediate sides and discontinued. After doing some research and the appearance of a premium pre-emulsified Quercetin product from a vendor that I trust I decided to give it a go. Im 2 days in on it and have experienced an energy lift and exacerbation of an elbow tendinitis flare-up, similar to taking an NSAID. Probably to early to tell really. Has anyone else had similar experiences with the addition of Quercetin to their Resveratrol?

Joint or tendon pain. Discontinued.

Same here.....Not with resveratrol but Quercetin only...really intense joint pain.
Saw some studies that opposed previous findings like endurance benefits when taking Quercetin so i decided to drop it.

Edited by drmz, 09 November 2009 - 11:17 AM.

[2tender]

Over 140 views, anyone else have a comment? Experiences using Quercetin or the new product, perhaps there is a difference in type?

[2tender]

As an update, 3 days in, still experiencing greater stamina, joint pain (elbow) less of a problem may not be related to Quercetin. Still experiences could be placebo, not experiencing any sides that are similar to my previous use of another product.

[health_nutty]

As an update, 3 days in, still experiencing greater stamina, joint pain (elbow) less of a problem may not be related to Quercetin. Still experiences could be placebo, not experiencing any sides that are similar to my previous use of another product.

Interesting. I tried some with 50% res a year or two ago. Initially it provided more anti-inflammatory response, but after the 2nd day it was back to "normal". After Maxwatt's report of his toe hurting worse and the possiblity the metabolities inhibit SIRT1, I gave up the quercetin.

[hmm]

I've been taking 500 mg quercetin at the same time as 500 mg of the tween80 (99% powder) resveratrol, but after about a year and a half of various dosage types and amounts of rsv, I seem to be numbing as far as feeling any affects at all. I quit everything from May to August to sort out some stomach issues (that turned out to be kidney-stone related), and resumed after I realized that I seemed to be getting more sore than usual after playing basketball. The soreness seemed to go away after re-starting the rsv/quercetin pills. (Though the good effects of the rsv/quercetin seem to come within a few days, it seems to take a period of months for them to fade away.)

Once I realized that my stomach issues were totally unrelated to resveratrol, I concluded that the only way I could possibly distinguish between a regime of taking 500mg rsv/500 mg quercetin daily, and not doing so, is a slight amount of extra soreness after playing a once-a-week basketball session. And since I know that the rsv handled that same soreness without quercetin, I find myself with no opinion at all as far whether the quercetin has any affect.

[2tender]

Thanks for your posts guys! What encouraged me to try this product was what I have read about Quercetin in terms of energy, antioxident power, exercise stamina, anti-cancer, etc. here and on other boards. The chemical structure is similar to Resveratrol and combined it seems they would help with male hormonal issues eg. exercise recovery. I was quite pleased with the Resveratrol Licap product, (and still am) plus other Resveratrol product from a vendor I trust, I want to enhance the Resveratrol but increasing the dose is costly. When the leading Resveratrol vendor came out with a Quercetin product in the similar delivery vehicle with MCT's and suggested it as a companion to the Resveratrol product I already take, while offering a return policy on first time purchase of product. I simply couldnt lose. I talked to someone on another board that is getting results with the cheapest Quercetin brand available. Did some Google and wikipedia lookups and went for it. It looks like its a cousin to Resveratrol structurally. We will see how it goes, if it rhymes with my physiology it should be part of my regimen.

Edited by 2tender, 10 November 2009 - 12:00 AM.

[maxwatt]

Like luteolin, quercetin is a PDE-4 inhibitor. Low doses can be good for asthma, higher doses may induce vomiting.

Invest New Drugs. 2008 Oct;26(5):417-24. Epub 2008 Feb 9.
Inhibitory effects of quercetin derivatives on phosphodiesterase isozymes and high-affinity [(3) H]-rolipram binding in guinea pig tissues.
Chan AL, Huang HL, Chien HC, Chen CM, Lin CN, Ko WC.

Pharmacy Department, Chi Mei Medical Center, 901 Chung-Hwa Road, Tainan, 710, Taiwan.
Rolipram has high (PDE4(H)) and low (PDE4(L)) affinities for phosphodiesterase (PDE)-4, respectively. In general, it is believed that inhibitions by PDE4(H) and PDE4(L) are respectively associated with an adverse response and with anti-inflammatory and bronchodilating effects. This has provided a rational basis for designing new compounds with high PDE4(H)/PDE4(L) ratios. In the present study, we attempted to determine the PDE4(H)/PDE4(L) ratios of quercetin (1), qercetin-3-O-methylether (3-MQ, 2), quercetin-3,7,4'-O-trimethylether (ayanin, 3), quercetin-3,7,3',4'-O- tetramethylether (QTME, 4), quercetin-3,5,7,3',4'-O-petamethylether (QPME, 5), quercetin-3,5,7,3',4'-O-pentaacetate (QPA, 6), and quercetin-3-O-methyl-5,7,3',4'-O-tetraacetate (QMTA, 7). The activities of PDE1 approximately 5, which were partially separated from homogenates of guinea pig lungs and hearts, were measured by a two-step procedure using adenosine 3',5'-cyclic monophosphate (cAMP) with [(3) H]-cAMP or guanosine 3',5'-cyclic monophosphate (cGMP) with [(3) H]-cGMP as substrates. The IC(50) values of all of these compounds except quercetin (1), 3-MQ (2), and QMTA (7) on PDE1 approximately 5 inhibition were determined. The anti-inflammatory effects of PDE4 inhibitors were reported to be associated with inhibition of PDE4 catalytic activity. Therefore, these IC(50) values for PDE4 inhibition were taken as the PDE4(L) values. The effective concentration (EC(50)), at which one half of the [(3) H]-rolipram bound to high-affinity rolipram binding sites (HARBSs) of brain cell membranes was replaced, was defined as the PDE4(H) value. In the present results, the PDE4(H)/PDE4(L) ratios of quercetin (1), ayanin (3), and QPME (5) were >30, >19, and 11, respectively (Table 1), which are higher than or equal to that of AWD12-281, the selective PDE4 inhibitor with the greatest potential currently undergoing clinical trials for treating asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.

PMID: 18264679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[2tender]

Update, I think the addition of Quercetin is worthwhile. Im taking slightly more Resveratrol than Q, but still feel the combination is working well, perhaps even accentuating the effect of Resveratrol. No sides.

[tunt01]

thx max. this is interesting given our past discussion here: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=34280

appreciate it.

[niner]

They say that the high affinity mode is associated with adverse effects (barfing?) and the low affinity mode is the desirable effect. Quercetin's ratio of PDE4(H)/PDE4(L) is >30, so that would make it more barfogenic than good for asthma, right? They didn't say what the IC50 was, but maybe it's not that potent because I haven't heard of quercetin making people throw up.

[maxwatt]

They say that the high affinity mode is associated with adverse effects (barfing?) and the low affinity mode is the desirable effect. Quercetin's ratio of PDE4(H)/PDE4(L) is >30, so that would make it more barfogenic than good for asthma, right? They didn't say what the IC50 was, but maybe it's not that potent because I haven't heard of quercetin making people throw up.

Quercetin is used in Asia to treat Asthma. Barfing doesn't appear to be a side effect. Luteolin apparent;y isn't that potent a PDE4 inhibitor, either.

I am still leery of using querctin with resveratrol; when I tried it my arthritis symptoms returned within a few weeks; not just once, but twice. The studies on endurance in athletes are inconsistent as well.

[2tender]

They say that the high affinity mode is associated with adverse effects (barfing?) and the low affinity mode is the desirable effect. Quercetin's ratio of PDE4(H)/PDE4(L) is >30, so that would make it more barfogenic than good for asthma, right? They didn't say what the IC50 was, but maybe it's not that potent because I haven't heard of quercetin making people throw up.

Quercetin is used in Asia to treat Asthma. Barfing doesn't appear to be a side effect. Luteolin apparent;y isn't that potent a PDE4 inhibitor, either.

I am still leery of using querctin with resveratrol; when I tried it my arthritis symptoms returned within a few weeks; not just once, but twice. The studies on endurance in athletes are inconsistent as well.

Maxwatt, sorry to hear it didnt work for you. My previous experience with it was negative also, and as you say the studies were conflicting. However, based on recommendations from a vendor I trust, and knowing that all supplements are not created equally, I decided to try the MCT Q and am happy with the results, at the price it was worth the gamble. If someone is already using luteolin with success they probably dont need the Q. Premium product is the way to go. Just my thoughts.

[osris]

Biotivia does not include quercetin in their resveratrol product. They say:

"We have devoted quite a bit of study and research to quercetin's effect on resveratrol and resveratrol's metabolites and the issue of SirT1 activation. Our conclusion is that the most recent and best designed studies, including a study by one company that actually puts quercetin in their product, conclude that quercetin strongly inhibits the metabolites of resveratrol and suppresses SirT1 activation. Quercetin has been shown in numerous studies to interfere with the beneficial metabolites of resveratrol. These metabolites, particularly resveratrol glucuronide, resveratrol sulphate and picead possess important health properties. Studies also confirm that enterohepatic recirculation (recirculation by the liver) of these metabolites contributes significantly to the enhanced exposure of resveratrol in the tissues of mammals. Furthermore, quercetin's undesirable SirT1 suppression clearly rules it out as an ingredient in any longevity product.

If Biotivia scientists believed that quercetin would improve our products in a substantive way it would be in our interest to add it to our products. From an economic standpoint this would also benefit us, as quercetin is far less costly than the high-grade resveratrol we use in our products. A recent study by the makers of Longevinex strongly confirms our conclusion that quercetin inhibits SirT1 and possibly the other sirtuins as well. In this study a combination of resveratrol and quercetin along with the filler oat bran actually reduced SirT1 activation by a factor of 1.7 times; precisely the opposite effect one is looking for in a product designed to increase longevity."

Has anyone got any opinions on this?

[maxwatt]

One of Sinclair's papers mentioned that they found the metabolite of quercetin inhibited Sirt1, countering resveratrols effects, and further that C. elegans did not live longer when fed quercetin, (or was it quercetin plus resveratrol? I'll have to look up the paper when I have time) whereas resveratrol fed worms did live significantly longer.

Later papers cast doubt on the Biomol assay for Sirt1 activation, and called into question quercetin's blocking action by that test, and others here believe that quercetin's blocking action is week and is outweighed by its benefits.

I personally do not believe quercetin is helpful for me, it seems to block the benefits I feel from resveratrol (especially diminished arthritic pain.) Others seem to think it increases the effects they see, mostly evidenced in athletic activity/. I will note that studies of quercetin alone for athletic performance have given inconsistent results. It is possible that metabolic difference in individuals mean quercetin is beneficial for some, and not for others. I feel we do not have a definitive answer to you question on quercetin.

[niner]

Biotivia does not include quercetin in their resveratrol product. They say:

"We have devoted quite a bit of study and research to quercetin's effect on resveratrol and resveratrol's metabolites and the issue of SirT1 activation. Our conclusion is that the most recent and best designed studies, including a study by one company that actually puts quercetin in their product, conclude that quercetin strongly inhibits the metabolites of resveratrol and suppresses SirT1 activation. Quercetin has been shown in numerous studies to interfere with the beneficial metabolites of resveratrol. These metabolites, particularly resveratrol glucuronide, resveratrol sulphate and picead possess important health properties. Studies also confirm that enterohepatic recirculation (recirculation by the liver) of these metabolites contributes significantly to the enhanced exposure of resveratrol in the tissues of mammals. Furthermore, quercetin's undesirable SirT1 suppression clearly rules it out as an ingredient in any longevity product.

What a load of crap. Where to begin? "Quercetin strongly inhibits the metabolites of resveratrol"? Metabolites are molecules, not enzymes. You can't inhibit them. Quercetin does inhibit one of the enzymes responsible for the metabolism of resveratrol. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It helps resveratrol stay around longer. Suppresses SirT1 activation? Weakly. Not important. "Numerous studies" show that resveratrol metabolites are beneficial? Nonsense. I'd like to see those studies. "Picead" (I presume they mean Piceid.) is a natural product. It's not a human metabolite. Piceid might have health properties, if it were actually there. The Sulfate and Glucuronide metabolites are there to help small molecules be more soluble so they can be excreted, which they certainly are in the case of resveratrol. I'm aware of no evidence that they "possess important health properties". Enterohepatic recirculation does exist with resveratrol, but "contributes significantly"? Nonsense again. Contributes insignificantly. You can see a tiny bump in the plasma concentration curve from it, but it's next to nothing.

If Biotivia scientists believed that quercetin would improve our products in a substantive way it would be in our interest to add it to our products. From an economic standpoint this would also benefit us, as quercetin is far less costly than the high-grade resveratrol we use in our products. A recent study by the makers of Longevinex strongly confirms our conclusion that quercetin inhibits SirT1 and possibly the other sirtuins as well. In this study a combination of resveratrol and quercetin along with the filler oat bran actually reduced SirT1 activation by a factor of 1.7 times; precisely the opposite effect one is looking for in a product designed to increase longevity."

Trashing the competition is what their anti-quercetin stance is really all about. I'm not familiar with the longevinex study that they are discussing here, so I can't comment on it, but based on the grasp of science evidenced in the first paragraph, I would take their critique with a grain of salt.

Edited by niner, 08 December 2009 - 02:02 AM.

[lobo11]

Joint or tendon pain. Discontinued. Same as maxwatt.

[health_nutty]

Biotivia does not include quercetin in their resveratrol product. They say:

"We have devoted quite a bit of study and research to quercetin's effect on resveratrol and resveratrol's metabolites and the issue of SirT1 activation. Our conclusion is that the most recent and best designed studies, including a study by one company that actually puts quercetin in their product, conclude that quercetin strongly inhibits the metabolites of resveratrol and suppresses SirT1 activation. Quercetin has been shown in numerous studies to interfere with the beneficial metabolites of resveratrol. These metabolites, particularly resveratrol glucuronide, resveratrol sulphate and picead possess important health properties. Studies also confirm that enterohepatic recirculation (recirculation by the liver) of these metabolites contributes significantly to the enhanced exposure of resveratrol in the tissues of mammals. Furthermore, quercetin's undesirable SirT1 suppression clearly rules it out as an ingredient in any longevity product.

What a load of crap. Where to begin? "Quercetin strongly inhibits the metabolites of resveratrol"? Metabolites are molecules, not enzymes. You can't inhibit them. Quercetin does inhibit one of the enzymes responsible for the metabolism of resveratrol. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It helps resveratrol stay around longer. Suppresses SirT1 activation? Weakly. Not important. "Numerous studies" show that resveratrol metabolites are beneficial? Nonsense. I'd like to see those studies. "Picead" (I presume they mean Piceid.) is a natural product. It's not a human metabolite. Piceid might have health properties, if it were actually there. The Sulfate and Glucuronide metabolites are there to help small molecules be more soluble so they can be excreted, which they certainly are in the case of resveratrol. I'm aware of no evidence that they "possess important health properties". Enterohepatic recirculation does exist with resveratrol, but "contributes significantly"? Nonsense again. Contributes insignificantly. You can see a tiny bump in the plasma concentration curve from it, but it's next to nothing.

If Biotivia scientists believed that quercetin would improve our products in a substantive way it would be in our interest to add it to our products. From an economic standpoint this would also benefit us, as quercetin is far less costly than the high-grade resveratrol we use in our products. A recent study by the makers of Longevinex strongly confirms our conclusion that quercetin inhibits SirT1 and possibly the other sirtuins as well. In this study a combination of resveratrol and quercetin along with the filler oat bran actually reduced SirT1 activation by a factor of 1.7 times; precisely the opposite effect one is looking for in a product designed to increase longevity."

Trashing the competition is what their anti-quercetin stance is really all about. I'm not familiar with the longevinex study that they are discussing here, so I can't comment on it, but based on the grasp of science evidenced in the first paragraph, I would take their critique with a grain of salt.

Don't hold back niner, tell us how you *really* feel

[Anthony_Loera]

From Osris:

... with the filler oat bran actually reduced SirT1 activation by a factor of 1.7 times; precisely the opposite effect one is looking for in a product designed to increase longevity.

oat bran?

I never would have guessed!
Damn it that oat bran!




A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 08 December 2009 - 06:04 AM.

[2tender]

While Sirtuin activation is indeed desirable, at this point I think it involves more factors than ingesting the right supplements. As for the studies and supplier propaganda that negate Quercetin it seems to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Q may not work for some people and not be tolerable to their physiology. After a month in using Q with my Resveratrol, Im not experiencing any negative sides, as I did previously using a different form of Q by itself. I think that the licap and the MCT is the qualitative difference. While Resveratrol alone made a distinct difference in recovery time from exercise, the addition of Q, taken simultaneously with Resveratrol, has taken that up a notch. JMO

[osris]

Niner, you haven't addressed the paper Biotivia refer to, which they link to here:

http://biotivia.co.u...s/quercetin.pdf

[niner]

Niner, you haven't addressed the paper Biotivia refer to, which they link to here:

http://biotivia.co.u...s/quercetin.pdf

Here is the relevant wording from the paper:

The major quercetin metabolite in humans, quercetin 3-O glucuronide, slightly inhibited the recombinant SIRT1 activity which explains the lack of stimulatory action of quercetin in HT29 cells. This study shows that the stimulation of SIRT1 is strongly affected by polyphenol stability and metabolism, therefore extrapolation of in vitro SIRT1 stimulation results to physiological effects should be done with caution.

The key word here is slightly. That means it's not a strong inhibitor, or even a moderate one. This was an in-vitro experiment on HT29 cells, and they actually go on to caution us, right in the abstract, to use such studies cautiously when attempting to predict in vivo effects. Biotivia is distorting this to imply that quercetin is some sort of metabolic disaster for humans, which doesn't seem to be the case.

[2tender]

Articles regarding Q and Q-Res combination at ergo-log.com

[drmz]

I had tried Quercetin before, but got immediate sides and discontinued. After doing some research and the appearance of a premium pre-emulsified Quercetin product from a vendor that I trust I decided to give it a go. Im 2 days in on it and have experienced an energy lift and exacerbation of an elbow tendinitis flare-up, similar to taking an NSAID. Probably to early to tell really. Has anyone else had similar experiences with the addition of Quercetin to their Resveratrol?

Joint or tendon pain. Discontinued.

Same here.....Not with resveratrol but Quercetin only...really intense joint pain.
Saw some studies that opposed previous findings like endurance benefits when taking Quercetin so i decided to drop it.

Started (somewhere in november) with a resveratrol/quercetinc ombo (i take 5000 IU vit d3 a day) but had to quit today. Again really intense joint/tendon(around the wrist) pain. No weight loss (gained 1kg), no gains in strenght, only really intense pain in my knees and ankles. Feels like if somebody is constantly hamering my knees. Same symptoms, though not as bad as now, occured with 500 mg quercetin only. I'm now on +- 100 mg resveratrol and 100 mg quercetin a day. I don't know exactly how much is in the "patent pending composition.

So far for my experiment with quercetin and resveratrol. Mainly started to test some anecdotes about weight loss and strenght gains. I gained weight and strenght remained the same. Had to cut back on my cardio because of the joint pain. I came back early from shopping today because i reached my pain limit. Really strange.

I'm glad this experiment costed me only 16.51 euros.(import tax) Thanks to my sponsor ;-) PM me if you live in the EU and want the other 150 caps (normally +- $150) for a small fee and shipment costs.(only for people who are active for a longer time at imminst)

Edited by drmz, 02 January 2010 - 06:46 PM.

[maxwatt]

I had tried Quercetin before, but got immediate sides and discontinued. After doing some research and the appearance of a premium pre-emulsified Quercetin product from a vendor that I trust I decided to give it a go. Im 2 days in on it and have experienced an energy lift and exacerbation of an elbow tendinitis flare-up, similar to taking an NSAID. Probably to early to tell really. Has anyone else had similar experiences with the addition of Quercetin to their Resveratrol?

Joint or tendon pain. Discontinued.

Same here.....Not with resveratrol but Quercetin only...really intense joint pain.
Saw some studies that opposed previous findings like endurance benefits when taking Quercetin so i decided to drop it.

Started (somewhere in november) with a resveratrol/quercetinc ombo (i take 5000 IU vit d3 a day) but had to quit today. Again really intense joint/tendon(around the wrist) pain. No weight loss (gained 1kg), no gains in strenght, only really intense pain in my knees and ankles. Feels like if somebody is constantly hamering my knees. Same symptoms, though not as bad as now, occured with 500 mg quercetin only. I'm now on +- 100 mg resveratrol and 100 mg quercetin a day. I don't know exactly how much is in the "patent pending composition.

So far for my experiment with quercetin and resveratrol. Mainly started to test some anecdotes about weight loss and strenght gains. I gained weight and strenght remained the same. Had to cut back on my cardio because of the joint pain. I came back early from shopping today because i reached my pain limit. Really strange.

I'm glad this experiment costed me only 16.51 euros.(import tax) Thanks to my sponsor ;-) PM me if you live in the EU and want the other 150 caps (normally +- $150) for a small fee and shipment costs.(only for people who are active for a longer time at imminst)

We had similar experience with the combo (also with luteolin and with pomegranate for me.) Bringing my serum D levels over 40 with 6000 units of D3 a day may be what stopped any joint/tendon pain with resveratrol.

[Anthony_Loera]

For folks with issues regarding quercetin and joints, try the combo with BioCurcumin that is offered by at least 1 or 2 companies (other than our own). I have at least 2 people tell me it works, and 1 doc did ask at least one of these folks to get it for a similar issue.

The doc reccomendation was actually the tipping point, that made the production of a capsule with this material possible for us.

Regardless of where you get it, I suggest you try it out.

A

[2tender]

After using the Q/R combination for some months I have had no joint problems. Ive experienced an increase in stamina as well as a tremendous decrease in overall fat, a positive side. I think the combination is synergistic at comparitively low doses.