<Shawn> hello everyone
<Ex_banana-eater> Hi
<Shawn> let me introduce myself
<Kid-A> hurrah
<Randolfe> Yeah, I will miss ephedra/ephedrine. I am down to my last bottle of Stackers 2.
<serenade> welcome Shawn
<Shawn> I am Shawn Mikula, a doctoral candidate in neurosci at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland
<John_Ventureville> welcome
<Randolfe> We need more professionals here
<John_Ventureville> true
<Shawn> my site at
http://mind-brain.com expresses some of my views
<John_Ventureville> *visiting*
<Randolfe> What a cleverly named site. Get a lot of hits?
<BJKlein> thanks for joining us Shawn.. ready for some fun?
<Shawn> 100,000 per month
<Shawn> but i could go on and on about site stats
<TylerEmerson> Hello, Shawn
<BJKlein> let's
<Shawn> hello Tyler
<Shawn> hello Bruce
<Randolfe> BJ, how many hits does Imminst get?
<TylerEmerson> 100,000 per month at Mind-Brain.com?
<Shawn> This is a nice chat system here
<Shawn> yes
<Shawn> yes, 100.000
<BJKlein> www.imminst.org/stats about 500-800 hits/day
<TylerEmerson> Wow, Shawn, that is quite extraordinary
<Randolfe> I'm lucky to get 30,000 at www.clonerights.com
<Shawn> i know about seo
* BJKlein Official Chat Starts
<Shawn> SEO
<BJKlein> Shawn Mikula, creator of Mind-Brain.com, joins ImmInst to discuss his current work, the future of brain-computer interfacing and immortalism.
<TylerEmerson> Shawn, you're my new best friend, then, if you would be so kind.
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=63&t=3479<TylerEmerson> But I'll save it for later.
<Shawn> that is, most visitors to mind-brain come through search engines
<Shawn> oh what a cute brain
* BJKlein wraps his arm around Shawn's sholder..
<cyborg01> Hello shawn... I've seen your connectivity database once...=)
<Shawn> yes?
<Shawn> I'm still working on it
<Shawn> have you heard of cocomac?
<Shawn> cocomac.org?
<cyborg01> No..
<Shawn> it's a cortical connectivity database site
<cyborg01> I think a really complete connectivity map of the brain, even at a coarse level.. would be very useful
<Shawn> indeed
<Shawn> systems neuroscience
<cyborg01> Your database is like ... collection of papers
*** Joins: eclecticdreamer (forti2de@c-66-41-106-197.mn.client2.attbi.com)
<Shawn> that's what systems neuroscience is all about, understanding the systems underlying the brain
<Shawn> yes, cyborg, it's just a big bibliography really
<Guest> <cyborg01> No..
<BJKlein> Sorry, I have extraordinary circumstances taking me away from the chat in about 1 min, thus if anyone would like to act as point man for Shawn, it'd be appreciated.
<Guest> <cyborg01> No..
<Shawn> i know php/mysql, so what can you do with that?
<Shawn> in terms of cortical connectivity
*** Joins: TylerE (~TylerEmer@host-64-72-54-38.classicnet.net)
<Shawn> the cortical connectivity database will be revised and modified soon
<Shawn> it's important to reference particular connections, that's where the databasing comes in
<cyborg01> Are you aware of McCormack's work?
<Shawn> about two states for thalamic neurons or something else?
<Ex_banana-eater> Shawn, can increase sensitivity counteract excessive use of a receptor? (example GABAergic)
<Randolfe> Shawn, I've read that the FDA has commenced testing chip implants in paralyzed people so they can make machines respond to commands. Have you any knowledge or interest from people like Christopher Reeve?
<Shawn> bananaeater, i don't think so
<cyborg01> Err... that's probably another McCormack... I'm talking about his work to slice the mouse brain and scan and reconstruct it's connections
<Shawn> Chris Reeve is the one everyone knows but I do not know him personally
<Jonano> is this Shawn Mikula ?
<Shawn> yes
<Shawn> hello everyone
<Jonano> ok Bruce is not there
<Shawn> I believe I was scheduled to talk about BMI
<Jonano> what is BMI
<Shawn> Bruce is temporarily unavailable
<Shawn> Brain Machine Interface
<eclecticdreamer>
<Randolfe> Shawn, has the Bush administration been helpful or harmful when it comes to funding your type of research?
<Shawn> more harmful
<Shawn> but I am not in the best position to address funding questions
<Randolfe> Has he cut funding or just directed it toward military applications?
*TylerEmerson* Nice find with Shawn
<Ex_banana-eater> What kind of private companies are interested in this research?
<Shawn> Randolfe, I don't know enough about the funding structure
*** Joins: John_Ventureville (~John_Vent@24-116-21-4.cpe.cableone.net)
<Shawn> Ex_banana-eater, what sort of research? BMI?
<Shawn> Bruce, are you there?
<Ex_banana-eater> Yes, is there much research that goes on that isnt out of personal interest anyway?
<Jonano> so you think we will be able to help the brain for older person ?
<Shawn> when you get in, let me know
<Jonano> Alzeimer ?
<Shawn> Jonano, I think nootropics could help elderly people now
<Jonano> ok
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, but not younger? :O\
<Jonano> I have some news on my site about brains lol
<Jonano>
http://nanoaging.com...ws&new_topic=26<Shawn> banana, research that isn't out of personal interest?
<cyborg01> Shawn: what do you think are the main problems of BMI?
<Ex_banana-eater> How do you envision people "senses" twenty years from now?
<Jonesey> good q eclecticdreamer, any nootropics work for younger healthier people?
*** Joins: Agent101 (~loadquo@81-86-131-30.dsl.pipex.com)
<Randolfe> What are nootropics? I've read that no drugs help (aricept, etc.). My mother has Alzheimer's and doesn't know who she is and has to be fed.
<Shawn> eclectricdreamer, what do you mean younger? Nootropics can be used by anyone... should be used by anyone
<eclecticdreamer> do you take any personally?
<Jonano> What is Nootropics
<eclecticdreamer> and which one's in particular?
<Jonesey> smart drugs
<Jonano> Chips may help paralysis ?
<Shawn> that's a nice site, thanks Jonano
<Jonesey> so far have not been effective in young healthy people that I know of though some slight reports of success in alzheimer patients
<Shawn>
http://www.nature.co...s=doi1082934611<Ex_banana-eater> Theyre best defined as drugs that enhance cognitive abilties with fairly little side effects or much effect on DA/SA/etc receptors
<Randolfe> I read a report that Vitamin C taken with Vitamin E with food greatly slows down Alzheimer's progression.
<Jonesey> are there any such drugs?
*** Joins: Ge (~Ge@AC8E98F6.ipt.aol.com)
<Shawn> there is an excellent article in Nature Neurosci by Miguel A. L. Nicolelis at Duke over BCI
*** Joins: EmilG (~asdf@h002078ceaee5.ne.client2.attbi.com)
<eclecticdreamer> www.Nicolelislab.net
<Shawn> oh thanks
<eclecticdreamer> :O) np
<cyborg01> Yeah I've heard of NicoleliS&'s work..
<Shawn> about smart drugs...what are you looking for?
<eclecticdreamer> or this one is more geared to the really interesting one with the monkey to machine interface
http://www.popsci.co...76464-1,00.html<Ex_banana-eater> Shawn, are you talking about the rat study where they imaged their brains when they pressed a lever
<Shawn> yes, and the monkey study where they moved a cursor
<eclecticdreamer> smart drugs - more memory, energy, & concentration
<eclecticdreamer> in that order
<Shawn> piracetam, hydergine, deprenyl
<Randolfe> I saw a science documentary in which monkeys could learn to sort pictures by content, color and shape but couldn't always put the same things, people, foods, etc. together. They had limited cognitive ability.
<Shawn> acetyl-l-carnitine, choline
<Ex_banana-eater> Does hydergine increase nerve growth factor in the brain shawn
<Jonesey> eclecticdreamer none of them work
*** Joins: immortalP`afk (~aojcc@adsl-213-190-45-89.takas.lt)
<Jonesey> shawn none of those work
<eclecticdreamer> do they know if they helped you, without the placeboeffect?
<Ex_banana-eater> Jonesey, piracetam and ALCAR worked for me
<Jonesey> yep and pot works for some people. need something better than that
<Shawn> Jonesey..... they work to a limited extent. I know what you mean
<Ex_banana-eater> Well there have been controlled studies done
<eclecticdreamer> Jonesey, I think it may depend greatly on a great many variables
<Jonesey> studies on say...chess players, how much did they improve their rating with drugs vs without?
<Jonesey> something significant and taxing intellectually
<Shawn> <Ex_banana-eater> Does hydergine increase nerve growth factor in the brain shawn . I have only heard that it increases circulation to the brain and that it works synergistically with piracetam
<Randolfe> I always thought dexadrine and even amphetamine were greaqt for a short term boost in attention and mental facility.
<John_Ventureville> what is a good legal website to find nootropics priced competitively?
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, can you point me to any well-controlled double-blind studies on certain nootropics, notably those that you mentioned?
<Jonesey> or some substantial suite of mental tasks
<Ex_banana-eater> Elec, www.pubmed.com and search the apropriate terms
<eclecticdreamer> Ex_banana-eater, I'm not in a position to figure out what's relevant
<Shawn> Jonesey, I don't know of such studies with chess players, but do recall reading about studies showing that people who experimented with marijuana (THC) had a higher IQ, for whatever that's worth
<eclecticdreamer> I'd rather ask someone who knows more
<eclecticdreamer>
<Ex_banana-eater> Thats interesting since it lowers cognitive functioning in the short term
<Jonesey> haha shawn study done by high times magazine?
<Shawn> eclectic, unfortunately, all I know about nootropics comes from pubmed searching and personal experience with them
<Randolfe> Pot destroys the memory and the brain. The latest study shows that pot smokers got schizophrenia many years earlier and at a greater rate than non smokers.
<Jonesey> did the ganja up their IQ or do smart ppl like pot?
<Shawn> ex_banana, why do you think it lowers it short-term?
<Shawn> not always
<Ex_banana-eater> Its likely a cause of use and notan effect jonesey
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, do you have any in your bookmarks you could share? :O)
<Ex_banana-eater> Shawn, Ive just heard that in articles (didnt bother to look up the studies) but assumed its true
<eclecticdreamer> on pubmed of some good studies?
<Jonesey> notan effect?
<Jonesey> oh not an effect wups
<Shawn> notan?
<Shawn> eclectic, I will search and post the links
<Randolfe> Pot is great for overcoming naseau if you need to take medicines. Short term, it puts you in a fantasy land. I smoked for many years and then had the good sense to stop.
<Jonesey> notan=really pale
<eclecticdreamer> ok, thanks.
<Shawn> what made you stop?
<Jonesey> i had the good sense to never start
<Shawn> you're not curious?
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, are you aware of www.highwire.org ?
<Jonesey> Nope
<Ex_banana-eater> What do you think about hallucinogenic drugs in a controlled atmosphere on "expanding consciousness" shawn
<Shawn> the interesting thing about BCI is considering it in the context of the singularity
<Randolfe> I was editor of the marijuqana newsletter. Really believed pot was better than alcohol. Took a trip to South America clean and discovered I was more "habituated" than I wanted to be.
<Shawn> i'm aware of highwire but have not used it.. Is it better than pubmed or web of science?
<eclecticdreamer>
http://highwire.stan...ts/allsites.dtl searches 359 journals
<Shawn> the good thing about pubmed for webprogrammers is that you can retrieve and parse results for your own purposes
<eclecticdreamer> Well, in many you have to pay or register to see, which I don't like
<Shawn> I think pot is probably bettter than alcohol
<Randolfe> I "weeded" pot out of my life. My best friend argued with me about that. Now, he has cancer of the saliva gland. Too much pot.
<Shawn> indeed
<Randolfe> In every society where pot and alcohol co-exist, marijuana is the choice of the failure class and alcohol the choice of the success class.
<Shawn> has anyone here worked with EEG BCI?
<eclecticdreamer> EEG?
<eclecticdreamer> :O?
<Ex_banana-eater> Shawn, if one were to upload their consciousness onto a machine, would it end their biological consciousness or would the two exist simultaneously
<Shawn> really Randolfe? that's surprising.....
<Randolfe> In India, the word for "crazy person" is the same as hashish eater.
<Shawn> banana, if you could upload your consciousness (which I don't think you'll ever be able to do) they would exist simult
<Shawn> lol@Randolfe
<Ex_banana-eater> What are reasons you dont believe n it?
<Shawn> maybe the hash consumes too much of a person
<Randolfe> Don't want to seem too retrograde. I've smoked pot once or twice in the last two years.
<eclecticdreamer> Ex_banana-eater, uploading is the wrong term
<eclecticdreamer> gradual augmentation & replacement may be better
<Shawn> the intricacy of the brain cannot be accurately modeled by computer, only approximated and abstracted
<Shawn> eclectic, I think sticking to "wetware" is the way to go
<eclecticdreamer> we are already seeing surgeries done on giving people some crude forms of eyesight & hearing
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, where does cocaine fit into your socio-economic scheme for drug users?
<Shawn> "hardware" has too many problems
<Ex_banana-eater> Unless they found some way to hook every neuron up to an electrical impulse right?
<Shawn> it's a useful tool, but not a substitute
<eclecticdreamer> wetware, you mean our biological bodies?
<Randolfe> Shawn, thanks for the discouraging words. Some people tend to think they can put themselves in a computer--and maybe email "themselves" somewhere.
<cyborg01> Shawn: approximately modeling neurons are enough.. if the precision is high enough
<Shawn> wetware=neural tissue
<eclecticdreamer> hmm
<John_Ventureville> Rudy Rucker!!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Shawn> Rudy Rucker?
<Shawn> I remember a book by him over infinity
<John_Ventureville> a math prof who wrote the classic sci fi novel "Wetware"
<Shawn> the thing is, why approximate a "wetware" system in hardware when it's easier to just work with the real thing?
<eclecticdreamer> I think any form of measurement is relative, including mathematics, space, time, speed of light
<eclecticdreamer> ,etc
<Randolfe> John, I personally question the use of sci-fi novels, etc. as sources. Perhaps I have been battling "Brave new World" in the human cloning movement for too long.
<Shawn> indeed
<Shawn> What do you all think about the singularity?
<Ge> Rand, battling how?
<Randolfe> I personally think it is the product of paranoid imaginative thinking.
<Shawn> I find it interesting that the focus I've come across is on technological singularity, as opposed to consciousness singularity. Do you know what I mean by consciousness singularity?
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, on what definition?
<Ex_banana-eater> I think it could be good and bad, just like tomarrow
<Shawn> paranoid imaginative thinking Ran?
<Ex_banana-eater> Thats with the use of BCI Shawn?
<Agent101> I think matter/energy requirements will dampen down any world changing exponentials
<Ge> shawn: I for one am not thrilled about the prospect. I want to keep my body, not become a "program" in a plastic box.
<Shawn> no, not with BCI, with "wetware"
<Shawn> Ge, I agree
<Randolfe> Shawn might be dividing the subject properly. I don't see the Singularity assuming "human" traits like desire to control, rule, exploit, etc.
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, what do you mean by Conscious singularity?
<Shawn> however, we all change. ... I guess it's the idea of becoming a machine that's frightening, but if the change were gradual...
<cyborg01> Shawn: but wetware is prone to ageing and all sorts of problems.. diseases etc
<eclecticdreamer> I think I prefer that, but I'd like to know your definition
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, now you are in the realm of friendly AI
<John_Ventureville> and why we need it
<Shawn> cyborg, wetware is the solution that nature has found through trial and error.... wetware is very adaptable
<Randolfe> James Hughes, at Better Humans, has an essay which argues that we change so much over time that we really don't have the identity that we think we do.
<John_Ventureville> I agree with that
<Shawn> i know it's prone to aging, but it can reproduce, and grow
<Ex_banana-eater> Randolf, do you think that AI wont assume human traits?
<cyborg01> Shawn: but our wetware cannot last forever
<John_Ventureville> the rest of you can become Jupiter Brains, but I just want to be a very enhanced version of basic 'ole me
*** Joins: TimFreeman (~tim@fungible.com)
*** Joins: FutureQ (~FutureQ@c-24-21-73-213.client.comcast.net)
<Shawn> replicating, growing wetware does a good job of lasting a long time
<Ge> Rand: then our identity is in our BODIES, and you can't remove them without removing the person.
<Randolfe> No, AI won't assume human traits anymore than Woindows 2005 will be a real human being.
<eclecticdreamer> John, in a future of transcension your old beliefs, your memories will be seen as insignificant compared to your new found freedom & joys
<Shawn> how is our identity in our bodies?
<FutureQ> Is chat still going? Reinstalli bgjava app made my pc break
<eclecticdreamer> Just my belief..
<Shawn> how are you defining body?
<cyborg01> Shawn: the problem boils down to how you can keep your identity intact while replacing your wetware bit by bit.. either with electronics or with new wetware
<Ex_banana-eater> Why can't it mimic human traits though? Especially once free will is involved
<Shawn> hi Future
<John_Ventureville> Welcome, FuturQ!
<John_Ventureville> the chat is steaming along fine
<Shawn> free will? what's that?
<eclecticdreamer> Much of what we consider aspirable now, may be changed after we are more aware
<John_Ventureville> we are arguing uploading vrs. wetware, among other things
<FutureQ> I had some questons, may I still ask the guest?
<Ge> well if as rand said, our identity is not fixed in our minds, then our body is what carries the identity.
<Randolfe> At aqge 66, I'm not the same person I was at 18..unfortunately..and maybe for the better.
<Ex_banana-eater> When AI can choose to program itself I suppose
<Shawn> BCI is useful for allowing us to more naturally use computers and silicon systems, but I don't think silicon will ever be a replacement
<Shawn> sure, Future
<Shawn> exactly, Ran
<TimFreeman> I'm not sure I have an identity. Can someone define the term so I know that I have this thing that people seem so concerned about?
<Ge> Body= that basic human form you walk around in and use the brain and senses of.
<Randolfe> To program itself, AI would ahve to "think" for iteself.
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, you don't believe in any free will?
<Shawn> Ran, you're not the same person you were at 18, and yet there's something there that's invariant to time
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, hostile AI might not have emotions but still be deadly to us simply by using logic in regards to us
<cyborg01> Shawn: so you're entirely not interested in replacement? you just let your wetware run its 'natural' course?
<Ex_banana-eater> Shouldnt it think for itself somewhere down the line
<Randolfe> Yes, my genotype lives on in my every cell.
<FutureQ> How long do you think until I can safely install memory augmentation such as access to comp database and have rudimentary math calc with thought control link to machine hardware embedded?
<Shawn> cyborg, i marvel at the beauty and magnificence of nature's design.
<Ex_banana-eater> Yah I want to hook up to the net too
<Shawn> wetware replacement with hardware, while possible sometime....
<Randolfe> John, if AI was "hostile" to us because it used logic, then AI is obviously right and we would deserve to be eliminated or whatever.
<John_Ventureville> Shawn, I admit to getting tired of transhumanists who love to bash our present bodies. Despite their limitations they are quite amazing in what they can do.
<eclecticdreamer> Randolfe, disagree completely
<Shawn> in what our bodies can do?
<FutureQ> I don't really mean replcement, just augmentation, for starters anyways.
<Randolfe> I love my old, decaying, biobag self
<Agent101> Shawn, can you recommend any good neuroscience books about neural plasticity?
<Shawn> augmentation, indeed, that's what we're after
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, You AI lover!!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<eclecticdreamer> I think it's very probable that existence itself is various degrees of dreaming..
<John_Ventureville> Shawn, yes
<eclecticdreamer> And everything is relative.. except perhaps "consciousness"
<Jonesey> eclecticdreamer hm a nightmare at times
<Shawn> about neural plasticity...I can't think of any good books that stand out. I mean, there's a chapter in Fundamentals of Neuroscience, .....
<Shawn> but prob the best thing to do is to look for review articles in journals
<Randolfe> What does neural plasticity mean?
<Jonesey> i don't remember being asked "neural paper or plastic", what happened
<FutureQ> Think Johnny Mnemonic, hw long till a realistic version of that?
*** Joins: Kraemahz (~Kraemahz@evrtwa1-ar5-4-65-004-178.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net)
<Shawn> neural plasticity is the ability of neurons to change their synaptic weights between each other
<John_Ventureville> From the A.I.'s perspective humans may need to be wiped out to make things safer for the machines, but from a human perspective this is a horrifying prospect, even if we are a warlike and untrustworthy species.
<Agent101> Shawn: Thanks
<Shawn> anytime
<Randolfe> Shawn, then the loss of "neural plasticity" is what causes Alzheimers"
<Shawn>
http://www.ugcs.calt...vinge-sing.html<Shawn> no Ran
<John_Ventureville> Shawn, how many more years till Alzheimer's is not the terrifying prospect that it is now?
<Shawn> there's evidence that Alzheimers has a cholinergic origin
<TylerEmerson> Shawn, are you very familiar with the singularity concept in the Vingean sense?
<Jonesey> that link doesn't work for me shawn
<cyborg01> Randolfe: alzeheimers is caused by accumulation of a presinilin protein and neurofibrilary tangles
<Shawn> it's hard to construct timetables, but I'd say 15-20 yrs..
<Randolfe> I have volumonous Alzheimer's files. One says that the gene is passed on through the mitochondria which means I am an Alzheimer's patient waiting to get sick.
<FutureQ> link workedfor me, takes you to Vernbbor Vinge page
<John_Ventureville> for anyone under 40 here, waiting 20 years is a very comfortable wait!
<Shawn> cholinestase inhibitors have been used for treating alzheimers
<FutureQ> damn typos
<John_Ventureville> one less thing I have to worry bout
<cyborg01> Randolfe: your chance might be slightly higher.. IF your mom's form is a genetic form, there could be other forms too
<Shawn> Ran, I prob have the gene too, so we're in the same boat
<Shawn> Tyler, yes
<Randolfe> I just got long term care insurance. Not sure I ever want to use it.
<Shawn> what other sense were you thinking of?
<TylerEmerson> Shawn, there are many meanings of the term floating around.
<Shawn> I'm familiar with the technological meaning in terms of suprahuman intelligent computers
<TylerEmerson> In my view, the Vingean sense is the most practically relevant and useful.
<Randolfe> Shawn, I studied psychology in college and decided it was just a pile of double talk. I concluded those who argued all mental illness was probably genetic or chemical/biological in basis. What do you think?
<Shawn> but there's also what you could call a consciousness singularity looming I believe
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, I received your Christmas letter and subscription check, thank you!
<John_Ventureville> You have lead an interesting life.
<TylerEmerson> Shawn, that's interesting. In that case, you may be familiar with my nonprofit, the Singularity Institute.
<Randolfe> Yes "conscious singularity" is looming. It is call Replucianism.
<Shawn> Ran, psyche is double talk and a tool too. Biology and genetics are intertwined. The genetics specifies the potential in a way, the environment and biology realizes the potential
<Shawn> Tyler, I'm not sure i"m familiar. What's the url?
<Jonesey> republican ism?
<Ex_banana-eater> Will the consciousness singularity be farther away than the technological?
<Shawn> No
<TylerEmerson> Shawn, how would you definie a "consciousness singularity," and what real-world effects would it entail
<Randolfe> Shawn, I agree that environment can affect the expression of genes but I believe we are 80% genetically determined which most people take issue with
<TylerEmerson> Shawn, our organization's URL is
http://www.singinst.org/<Shawn> The world as we know it is a product of our perception
<Shawn> thank you Tyler
<TylerEmerson> Quite welcome
<Shawn> the brain, gram for gram, is the most complicated thing in the universe
<Shawn> but its organization is being worked out
<Jonano> Do you think one day we will be able to calculate like computers ?
<Shawn> there is a design in the brain, nature has ensured this, as she does with other things
<Shawn> calculate like comps? why would you want to do that? Yes, I think we will!
<eclecticdreamer> <Shawn> The world as we know it is a product of our perception - definitely agreed
<eclecticdreamer> :O)
<Randolfe> Jonano, why waste our minds "calculating like computers"? We can think and computers can't think. To each his/her own.
<John_Ventureville> is the law of gravity a product of our perception?
<Shawn> all the sciences presume an observer, but the observer remains a black box
<Shawn> neuroscience is opening up this black box
<John_Ventureville> I don't think so.
<John_Ventureville> lol
<eclecticdreamer> John, it is..
<Shawn> there is a design in nature
<John_Ventureville> *regarding perception and gravity*
<FutureQ> But even though I can think I ca't calculate the sgr/rt of 239576945.2345 in a half a sec.
<Shawn> i'm not a solipsist
*** Joins: Utnapishtim (~jeromejth@82-45-233-193.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk)
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, do you think Free will is in reality information we don't yet understand, that we interpret to create thought & project these thoughts to create structure that we interpret - basically creating reality from the loss of information & interpretation of many observers?
<Randolfe> I think those "worshipping" the singularity might consider worshipping at the "altar of the human mind" instead. (ha)
<Shawn> yes to the first part
<FutureQ> ...and that with higher abilities to access data might be highly useful.
<Shawn> free will is an illusion. I still believe in it at times because it's sometimes useful to do so, but I know it's an illusion, a stubborn one
<Shawn> I'm not sure what you man, eclectic, about creating reality from loss of info of many observers
<Kraemahz> Shawn, could you explain that a bit?
<Shawn> what?
<Shawn> about free will?
<Randolfe> Shawn, Ingersol had a great statement to the effect that "belief" was not a matter of free choice but that we arrived at a conclusion we had no choice but to accept.
<Kraemahz> Yes
<Jonesey> i have no choice but to agree Randolfe
<Shawn> i'm deterministic?
<Randolfe> Jonesey, why so "reluctant"?
<Shawn> my "free will" as I experience it, I understand is the result of neural activity in my brain
<Jonesey> oh not reluctant just doing my determinsitic thing
<Shawn> it's a deterministic system
*** Joins: Ge (~Ge@ACA7C6A7.ipt.aol.com)
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, it is my belief that some "force" be that heat/chaos/randomness lost the connectivity of our original Self (consciousness) & from this chaos conscious entities interpret it to form thought
<Shawn> the deterministic system gives rise to the illusion of free will, and many other illusions and phantasms for that matter
<Jonesey> for most men free will is the result of the latest orders from the wife
<Shawn> lol
<Shawn> here here
<eclecticdreamer> heat/chaos is the loss of information from the nature of being - where all consciousness is connected & without any concepts known to humans
<Randolfe> I think I just realoized that I am a determinist.
<Jonano> Do you chat often on IRC Shawn
<Shawn> eclectric, you're drawing a relation between entropy and consciousness?
<Jonesey> i'm just determined
<Agent101> Shawn, what is the most exciting sub-topic of neuroscience at the moment?
<Shawn> no, I don't chat often
<Shawn> does it show?
<Shawn> there was a time though
<Shawn> the most exciting sub-topic....
<Shawn> for me....
<Ge> Consciousness is probably only the "output" of a suitably advanced brain; keep the brain and its body alive and you will preserve consciousness
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, I think I am.. But entropy might NOT be it.. :O\
<Shawn> is neural activity underlying the "resting state"
<Randolfe> Ge, do you think we can preserve it through cryonics?
<Jonano> Shawn did you take plan to freeze your brain?
<Shawn> no, i didn't plan to freeze my brain
<Ge> Rand, at state of the art, cryo is our only chance but IMO not a terribly good one
<Shawn> if death comes and takes me, so be it
<Jonano> SO you don`t believe in Cryonics ?
<Shawn> it is of little concern to one living in the present
<Kraemahz> According to his timetable, he probably won't need it
<Randolfe> Shawn, why don't you "take the chance" by freezing your brain? Are you that skeptical? What do you have to lose?
<Shawn> i do believe in crionics
<Shawn> cryonics
<Shawn> exactly, Krae
<FutureQ> Wouldn't yu rather keep breathing if you could and doing whatever that allows one?
<Ge> really shawn? then why spend your time on an immortalist website????
<Jonano> What do you think about the movie AI from Spielbirg ?
<Shawn> this site is fascinating
<eclecticdreamer> but in that view, we are taking chaos (information that we don't understand & interpreting from the loss of connectivity to our original Self) & creating greater complex structure by lowering the ambiguity/chaos that is in our system
<eclecticdreamer> refining our levels of identifiers to observed phenomena..
<Shawn> AI was worth watching. I didn't feel for the kid too much though
<Ge> FQ: question is, how to stay breathing?
<eclecticdreamer> :O\ not sure how that came out.. forgive me if it was bad
<Shawn> Bruce has done an excellent job here
<Randolfe> I can't say I "believe" in cryonics. I place some hope in it. The best thing about cryonicists is that they admit it is a gamble of sorts, even a long shoty.
<Shawn> but about immortality....
<Shawn> Ran, do you fear death?
<Shawn> the ego is a structure in consciousness
<FutureQ> Stay breathing was metaphore for keep living, keep pushing senesence ba c k until anti aging becomes possible, if un able to then freeze and come back when it is possible.
<Shawn> through life, we change, our personalities, our memories, and yet there remains something that is invariant, that remains with us always, that is us
<TylerEmerson> Shawn, see private message, and let me know if that's all right
<TylerEmerson> Thx
<Jonano> That is our gene
<Shawn> call it the Self behind the self... that is not touched by death
<Randolfe> I fear death a little bit. I fear long-term infirmity more. I just want my genotype to live on through cloning.
<Jonesey> stay breathing is also helpful with meditation
<Ge> FQ: lets face it, there has been *no* stretching of human life beyong the accepted max
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, can you give me a simple example that would best portray why you think determinism is the true finality of existence?
<Shawn> accepted max?
<Jonesey> screw my genotype, just want this particular stream of consciousness to keep going by any means necessary
<Shawn> i don't think determinism is the true finality of existence
<Jonesey> yep it's false, for one thing
<Ge> Shawn, that gets into quasireligous material, that is a matter of belief only
<Randolfe> Ge, if you are willing to "starve" for it, calorie restriction seems to be scientifically proven to extend life by about forty per cent.
<Jonesey> bell's inequalities doomed determinism
<FutureQ> GE; If that is so then if you are over 45 you should bve dead.
<Shawn> I think the true finality of existence is a mystical (union) experience that cannot be communicated, where subject and object become one
<Shawn> bell's inequalities doomed certain determinisms
<Jonesey> that's deep shawn maybe i do need ganja to process that one
<Jonesey> yep the ones with the features einstein called "locality" and "reality" as i recall
<Shawn> but what about Bohm's deterministic, but non-local, interpretation of QM.... That's perfectly legit. There is no collapse of a wave function and determinism is preserved
<Ge> the accepted max has been about 70 since biblical times; all that has changed are the proportions who get there
<Shawn> does anyone here CR?
<Shawn> calorically restrict?
<Jonesey> Yep 11 yrs here shawn
<Randolfe> Jonesey, don't dis your genotype.
<Jonesey> 12 wups
<John_Ventureville> Shawn, I still don't quite understand your concept of a neural/spiritual singularity
<FutureQ> No, Ge, we've gone well past that. The acccepted averae is above 70 now.
<Shawn> I tried for a few weeks as an undergrad, but couldn't keep it up
<Jonesey> easy for u to say randolfe u should see it
<Jonesey> if at first u don't succeed....
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, but what evidence is there for it?
<Shawn> John....
<eclecticdreamer> can you give us a thought experiment to think about that supports this?
<Jonesey> non-locality is da bohm
<Shawn> you've had "aha" experiences... experiences where you see things that you otherwise couldn't imagine
<Ge> If we are going to get into "spiritual" territory, then we should leave eternity to formal religion.
<eclecticdreamer> about being non-local determinism?
<Randolfe> I get 80 emails a day from the CR folks. It keeps me on my diet and I learn a lot.
<Shawn> lol@Jonesey
<Shawn> christ! 80?
<Jonesey> drives me crazy Randolfe, i don't read the list much any more
<Shawn> eclectic, evidence for what?
<Ge> not that much FQ? 73 for men in the us, non?
<Jonesey> i started a cr list in 93, had like 3 members and died
<Jonesey> ran it on a 486 with linux 0.9
<Shawn> neural/spiritual singularity=a collective transcendent state of consciousness that we cannot imagine what it's like now in our current states of mind
<Randolfe> Yes, I have considered unsubscribing. CR got some publicity and they have a big influx of new members. Get hready folks.
<eclecticdreamer> evidence for non-local determinism?
<eclecticdreamer> I don't think an observer can know this, until we become It :O/
<Jonesey> i get the emails and auto file them
<FutureQ> I don't attribute "aha"'s to anything supernatural, it's merely my brain taking information stored away I didn't realize conscioisly I had andmaking a connection.
<Ex_banana-eater> Shawn did you hear about the guy who put a magnet in his finder and can now "sense" magnetic fields
<Jonesey> send them to /dev/null/cr or something like that
<Randolfe> I have an aesthetic that makes me find thinness attractive. The CR crowd all hate themselves for being underweight. I would love to be underweight.
<Shawn> eclectic, my understanding of Bohm's interpretation is that it reproduces the same results as the Copenhagen interpretation of QM, so I guess any QM evidence could be taken as supporting both the Copenhagen (probabilistic) and Bohm (deterministic nonlocal) interpretations
<Shawn> in terms of differentiating between the two on the basis of experiment, i don't know
<Ex_banana-eater> I could never CR being a BBer
<Shawn> BB?
<Shawn> so much for BCI lol
<Randolfe> Ex-banan-eater, why did you give up on eating bananas. Just had to ask.
<Ex_banana-eater> Bodybuild (ts more of an intellectual endeavour more than anything)
<Shawn> has anyone used EEG biofeedback?
<Randolfe> Shawn, does EEG work?
<Ge> shawn: is taht not an expensive thing to do?
<John_Ventureville> Shawn, what I seem to envision is an enlightened version of the classic Borg collective mind scenario combined with the Hedonistic Imperative of David Pearce
<Ex_banana-eater> Once the price of Bananas went over 90 cents per lb I dropped them
<Shawn> it's crude, but yes it works
<eclecticdreamer> If we, as observers, cannot know the nature of reality because we are the observer, it seems that everything we will be able to measure will be in probabilities, but not inevitabilities..
<Jonesey> nope i got the headset that supposedly facilitates lucid dreaming but never got round to using it, tossed it out(expensive)
<Shawn> nice, John
<Shawn> yes, John, but bear in mind that the "world of star trek" was seen through human eyes and with a human mind
<Randolfe> Ex-banana eater, the price is now down to about 25 cents a pound so you can give up the Ex
<Jonano> Do you think UFO are coming to earth with big lights ?
<Shawn> anything like the Borg-collective would perceive the world in a completely different way, I think
<Shawn> UFOs? no, i'm not a believer
<Shawn> why with big lights?
<Shawn> Jonesey, where'd you get the headset?
<Ge> UFOs are a government conspiracy, every one knows that!!!
<Shawn> lol
<Shawn> i can only base truths on direct experience
<Randolfe> UFOs are a great money-maker for that town in New Mexico.
<Ex_banana-eater> Do you guys fear giving up your leverage over people because you are smarter, in a future world where people can just pay to improve their intelligence
<Shawn> neuroscience is definitely a field to be watching this upcoming decade. Big things are going to happen. It's inevitable
<Randolfe> I have a few dollars. I'll buy every mental upgrade as it comes along.
<Jonano> What are the big hot topics in technology today ?
<Shawn> there's an army of neuroscientists pounding away at this system called "the brain" that has yet to yield anything like the revolutions that occurred in physics with einstein
<Ge> Shawn: unless there is an economic/technological crisis
<Shawn> Ran, do you use nootropics?
<Shawn> indeed Ge
<John_Ventureville> Just having a "high IQ" will not be enough in the future, you will need a disciplined and organized mind to make the most of it and any talents you might be able to download into your brain
<Agent101> I agree that a change in humanity from individuality to more cohesiveness is a distinct possibility. Mainly because it has happened to other species and we will have better technologies to enable as well compared to pheremones
<Shawn> like a war?
<hkhenson> LOL about UFOs. I used to build and fly them
<Randolfe> Shawn, no. I have used stimulants for 53 years and believe in them.
<Shawn> IQ is dead
<Shawn> what sort of stims?
<Ge> no, that would be temporary, but if we run out of energy, THAT would be final
<Ex_banana-eater> Neurotoxic ones?
<Shawn> i see, Ge....
<Ex_banana-eater> I wonder if we could improve an animals brain, to the point where they have reason
<Shawn> consciousness will find a way to expand itself. Consciousness is the universe becoming more aware of Itself. It is you and me right now
<John_Ventureville> I simply used the term "high IQ" to denote high intelligence
<Shawn> i think you could, banana, but why? To have pets do homework?
<Randolfe> Didrex is the last resort. I used to get something that was a spansule with a tranqualizier in it as well.
<Shawn> intelligence=fluidity of thought, creativity, adaptability?
<Ex_banana-eater> I dont know why-maybe curiousit/
<Ge> The reseacrh we all yearn for depends upon the economy being stable.
<Shawn> Didrex?
<John_Ventureville> "uplifting" animal intelligence ot human levels is a popular theme in science fiction
<Shawn> yes Ge, that's a good point
<Ex_banana-eater> We could get "their point of view"
<Ge> It won't be at all stable if their is an energy crisis.
<Ex_banana-eater> As long as the method of uplifting didnt model/bias from our own
<Shawn> but if it doesn't happen on earth, it will happen somewhere else. Since time is an illusion anyway, it has already happened
<John_Ventureville> David Brin is fond of the idea in his novels
<Ge> oops, I meant "there"
<Agent101> Shawn, what sort of level of neuro-science do you think is most useful? Single neuron analysis or analysing behaviour of groups? Or are they equally useful?
<Shawn> both
<Shawn> 100 billion neurons in the brain
<Randolfe> Yes, I think it might be called dextro-amphetamine. I have always been a user, not an abuser. You could get it on-line until just recently.
<Ge> Shawn: time an illusion? then why don't you think ten years off your age?
<Shawn> somehow, through their collective activies, those 100 billion neurons are giving rise to your conscious experience, to you
<Ex_banana-eater> "Time" is how we see it I think he means
<Shawn> collectivie activies=collective activities
<Randolfe> Ge, I'm "thinking" 60 years off my age. I'm entering my second childhood.
<BJKlein> sorry, Shawn... back now (had uncle show up unexpected to home)
<Shawn> no prob Bruce
<Ge> Ex_B: at the same time, the humans would get smarter still and would still nto accept animals as equals.
<eclecticdreamer> Here's something we can all try. Try for 5 minutes to think about all the properties of an object you can see. You can close your eyes if you like. Do any unwilling thoughts enter your mind?
<Shawn> it was a delightful experience/exchange
<Ex_banana-eater> But it would drastically change "rights" as we know it, as animals would have reason
<BJKlein> excellent.. feel free to come back anytime
<Randolfe> Sorry, Bruce, you absense has made this evening unbearable.
<Shawn> does it matter if the thoughts remain subconscious
<Shawn> ?
<BJKlein> or stay as long as you'd like tonight
<eclecticdreamer> If they do, I think it is the cause of other conscious collections inside of us that wish to have a will of their own..
<Shawn> Bruce, you've done an excellent job w your site, btw
<Ex_banana-eater> If youre familiar with objectivist philosophies anyway, it points that humans are the only ones with reason
<BJKlein> heh, thanks Randolfe
<BJKlein> right back atcha there Shawn..
<Ge> Philosophy is IMO a waste of time. Let's work on solving some very real problems out there.
<Shawn> The professional manner of your site was something that really resonated with me, months ago when I first encountered it
<BJKlein> seems we're both focused on topics of univeral importance
<Agent101> Ge: that in itself is a philosophy
<Shawn> it's really a magnificent job
<FutureQ> Are we still cutting off logs of chats at the end of the official chat?
<eclecticdreamer> Bruce & Shawn, how did you l earn of each other? :O)
<BJKlein> depends FutureQ
<Shawn> Ge, philosophy like the meaning of life?
<FutureQ> If so may I suggest we not because there would be m,uch missed.
<BJKlein> I'll post generally more than the one hour
<Ge> AIUI, there are no "philosophies" as separate things, just a system of thinking
<Shawn> Bruce, I think I may have come across your site first, several months ago, prob 6 months ago or more
<BJKlein> if subject stays on topic
<Randolfe> I have to agree that BJ has done a magnificent job here and enriched all our lives. This is better than any Sunday night movie or TV show.
<Shawn> indeed
<FutureQ> Hale NJK!!
<FutureQ> oops er BJK!!
<BJKlein> guys.. guys
<Ge> Shawn. I don't get why life needs a meaning. Life is its own reward.
<Randolfe> Hale BJK!
<Jonesey> better than alias randolfe? u ok over there?
<Shawn> in fact, I have Bruce to thank for making mind-brain what it is today. Without seeing a site like imminst.org, mind-brain would still be some perosnal homepage
* BJKlein feels some love
<Shawn> perosnal homepage=personal homepage
<Shawn> so much for BCI!
<Shawn> lol
<Agent101> Shawn, have you read "Up from Dragons"?
<BJKlein> cool.. thanks shawn.. heh
<Shawn> you never had a chance to ask your questions Bruce
<Shawn> no Agent i haven't
<BJKlein> ah.. can i ask quickly?
<Shawn> sure
<Agent101> Ah, well
<Randolfe> People are too slow about showing their appreciation. Shawn has been a fabulous guest tonight also.
<Shawn> what's it about?
<BJKlein> how long do you wish to live, Shawn?
<Ge> Meaning implies a symbol, and life is not a symbol. It is the reality.
<eclecticdreamer> 1 year
<eclecticdreamer> j/k :O>
*** Joins: chubtoad (~chubtoad@h-68-166-253-9.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net)
<Shawn> Bruce that's sort of a complicated question
* BJKlein nods
<Shawn> the impersonal 'It' within us, the universal consciousness, lives on past death, lives in everyone... is the universe conscious of itself
<eclecticdreamer> I think we all would wish to live as long as we can or have hope to derive greater meaning :O)
<eclecticdreamer> well at least me
* BJKlein agrees
<Shawn> the personal 'I' or ego... well, this has undergone many changes, including deaths, ... this personal quality has some value.....
<Agent101> Neural Plasticity and the evolution of intelligence I think, I wanted an opinion
<FutureQ> Sorry, Shawn I don't buy it., but like was wrote in tbhe Sun Also Rises, "It's pretty to think so".
<Ge> Shawn: that is one gigantic assumption; we should stick to what is a given, namely, our bodies and their associated minds
<Shawn> but when you universalize your identity, you no longer worry about the personal identity so much
<Agent101> <Ex_banana-eater> Do you guys fear giving up your leverage over people because you are smarter, in a future world where people can just pay to improve their intelligence
<Agent101> <Shawn> neuroscience is definitely a field to be watching this upcoming decade. Big things are going to happen. It's inevitable
<Agent101> <Randolfe> I have a few dollars. I'll buy every mental upgrade as it comes along.
<Agent101> <Jonano> What are the big hot topics in technology today ?
<Randolfe> Shawn, if we made a half dozen later-born twins using your genotype, would you feel you had been "universalized"?
<Shawn>
http://mind-brain.co...versal_self.php<Ge> Shawn: universal identitiy is just a pretty phrase that means nothing except to you. Sorry
<Shawn> I am not attached to my personal ego.. It is a tool
<Shawn> drop by mind-brain.com forum, Ge, and meet Joesus!
<Ge> "Joesus?"
<Shawn> there are a few ppl I've come across with similar views as mine, many more extreme than mine
*** Joins: Agent101 (~loadquo@81-86-131-30.dsl.pipex.com)
<Agent101> Apologies
<Agent101> Using BitchX not quite sure what happened
<eclecticdreamer> Hypothesis 2: The self in each of us is one and the same, only thinking it's a separate entity through delusion.
<eclecticdreamer> very much agreed. :O)
<Jonesey> watch your language Agent101
<Ge> that's fine, Shawn, but admit that this is, in effect, a religion, and completely separate from physical immortlaism.
<FutureQ> Agen 101, good poinjt abut leverage, I've pondered that. Right now I'm a big fish in m my local pond. Norml fish in this one, in future, tiny fish among zillions., oh well, it'll be fun.
<BJKlein> Shawn.. would you think that your "I" would be lost if you were hit by a truck tonight?
<eclecticdreamer> :O\
<eclecticdreamer> ouch..
<Agent101> www.upfromdragons.com was the website for the book I mentioned
<Shawn> my memories, my ego, potential, and many other things would be lost
<eclecticdreamer> agreed.
<Jonano> Shawn do you believe Cryonics is expensive ?
<Shawn> but I do think that there is a part of us, in each of us, that is beyond the personal
<eclecticdreamer> again agreeing
<BJKlein> what would remain would be the information about you that you've created.. but your life continuance would be lost, right?
<Shawn> our bodies are creations of our mind. This notion of separateness is a creation of mind
<Shawn> how much is cryonics, Jonano?
<Ge> I yearn to keep my body, mind, memories, etc. You can *have* the singularity. It means zero to me.
<FutureQ> Shawwn it's those things we'd miss the most, so get dmn well froze man!!
<Shawn> the singularity is the expansion of our consciousness
<Shawn> it will mean the death of our previous personalities and egos
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, what is this 'I' of being, could you describe it?
<eclecticdreamer> this "I" of being after death?
<Shawn> no
<eclecticdreamer>
<eclecticdreamer> :O\ darn..
<cyborg01> You want to keep your physical existence in a friendly world also=)
<Shawn> there is no "i" that lives after death like a soul or something
<Ge> If our minds created our bodies, then a quadraplegic coul d 'think' his limbs back, non?
<Shawn> i meant that personal identity is an illusion. We are all the universe conscious of Itself, deluding Itself into the concept of individuality
<FutureQ> Well, it isthat "i" that is typingthsi and wants to be abvle to do so again tomorrow and assumes the same for the ther daygafter and so on.
<BJKlein> Shawn, for those under 30, cryonics can be as low as cable (<$40/month)
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, what I mean to say is could you describe how it would feel?
<Ge> yeah right. That's religion, Shawn, and that's ok, but admit it.
<Shawn> the singularity? or death?
<eclecticdreamer> So we wouldn't be aware of our previous consciousness in any way?
<eclecticdreamer> death?
<Shawn> Ge, it's not religion, it's religious feeling, it's direct experience
<Shawn> it's mystical experience, ok, but it's direct experience
<Shawn> i do not buy into religions
<Agent101> I'm off, it's late here
<Shawn> goodnight agent
<Shawn> nice talking with you
<Ge> I am sure a lot of us on this list belong to religions, but we do not try to peddle them to others in this forum.
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, in a sense we are all dreamers, & religious
<Agent101> You too.
<eclecticdreamer> beliefs about beliefs
<Shawn> i'm not trying to peddle, really i'm not
* BJKlein is an atheist
<Shawn> and i am for extending life
<eclecticdreamer> But you don't accept them, which is the difference
<Shawn> why extend life if our consciousness and identity is universal? Because our memories and experience have meaning to us
*** Joins: TylerE (~TylerEmer@host-64-72-54-38.classicnet.net)
<FutureQ> I have no interest in existing as a ,sot "i", in fact that's oxymornic. If "i" don't exist then I died and being part of some vapid ethereal consciousness is meaningless.
<Ge> By stating it as truth, you are in effect peddling it
<BJKlein> and I don't see Shawn refering to religion.. his views are solid in science
<eclecticdreamer> but we have to accept them for our thoughts & identity to exist
*** Joins: detriment5 (~detriment@pcp09305082pcs.towson01.md.comcast.net)
<detriment5> hi
<BJKlein> welcome detriment5
<detriment5> cool i got in
<John_Ventureville> could Shawn be considered a "transhumanist mystic?"
<Ge> universal consciousness and singularities are scientific?
<Shawn> Ge, where does your body end and 'other' begin. Everything is connected.
<detriment5> hows everyone doing
<eclecticdreamer> Shawn, have you ever thought that universal consciousness, after death, is not as meaningful as the dreams & beliefs we give our mind, to derive greater meaning?
<Shawn> i am a transhumanist mystic, but i'm grounded in science and practicality
<Jonano> If you are revived in the future, what would want to have for your body ?
<Shawn> i do, eclectic
<Jonano> If you are revived in the future, what would you want to have for your body ? *
<Shawn> our individuality is important, and it's worth preserving I think
<eclecticdreamer> I think I agree..
<Shawn> for my body? depends what my options are
<Ge> Shawn we all know the limits of our bodies; we know them better than our minds in fact
<BJKlein> that's the key... Shawn is refereing the the universal movement toward increasing complexity and the human consciousness is at the forefront of this.
<FutureQ> I think we have a difference of opinion only as to the logistics of the singularity. To me it will be the ability to join a hive mind as a separate and uniquely qualified processor in a large array. By being unique there in lies the greater vqlue oevr identical processors.
<Ge> J0onano; what choices do you envision in bodies?
<Shawn> expansion of consciousness
<Shawn> Future, that's interesting....
<Kraemahz> Back... I know what I'd want for my body, anything with a giant mechanical claw.
<Shawn> like a lobster?
<Shawn> eclectic, what do you think you are?
<detriment5> how close are we to this 'singularity'
<Shawn> a separate entity? Doesn't QM tell us that everything is connected?
<Kraemahz> Sure, why not? It would be an interesting experience being able to only grip things perpendicularly.
<Jonesey> hit the brakes detriment5!
<BJKlein> Ge, that question is really hard to answer.. in the future, we'll have the option to take any shape or form.. we'll most likely be more interconnected via a vast array of technologies and our minds will not need to be strapped down to any form
<Ge> I believe that a mechanical body may
<Shawn> 15-20 yrs... i don't like timetables. It will happen
<John_Ventureville> that early?
<detriment5> will that coincide with creation of AI?
<John_Ventureville> I would say about 30-40 years
<Jonesey> relative to human history as a whole we *are* in a singularity.
<Ge> become an option for human life extension before cryonics bears fruit
<Jonesey> our species is about 100k yrs old, virtually all of which was spent running around as hunter gatherers
<Shawn> Imagine a supra-mind coordinating between multiple bodies... what would that be like?
<BJKlein> Jupiter Brain
<detriment5> hehe cool anyone read forev
