438 replies to this topic

[tritium]

First of all apologies because this is a kind of off-topic. I was googling a few weeks ago and came upon some articles on VGlut (Vessicular Glutamate Transport) being implicated in vision processes. Which made me think about czukles' post several pages ago, which essentially said: Piracetam modifies cholinergic transmission and therefore seems to require choline supplements, Piracetam also modifies glutamatergic transmission - ergo lack of glutamine supplementation could explain negative effects (brain fog etc.) in the same way lack of choline supplementation could. L-Glutamine is extremely cheap, so I gave it a shot. I took a pretty heavy amount at first, and then took 1 gm L-Glutamine on an empty stomach. A while later I took my Piracetam and some choline. Amazingly, I felt pretty good. Not 'brilliant', but no negative side effects. The most amazing thing though was this: the day before I had taken Piracetam and had all the problems, I was a bit spacey, my pupils fluctuated dramatically, and I was pretty light sensitive. Yet the day of the 1 gm L-Glutamine -- Bam; no spaciness, more or less normal light sensitivity, and most incredibly - my pupils stopped fluctuating. The only thing was though, I didn't feel 'smarter'. Encouraged though since my pupils finally stopped fluctuating so freakishly (and have stayed consistent since), I have continued to take the L-Glutamine. I've been taking the regimen in Central America for the last two weeks though and I believe the nootropic effects have crept up on me. I would take L-Glutamine then Piracetam early in the day, and then note that later in the day my confidence in speaking Spanish (which I haven't studied since High School) dropped dramatically and I was speaking it much slower/laboriously. I'll grant this could be a placebo but there is no doubt that since the day I started taking L-Glutamine the pupil fluctuations and 'objective' negative effects have gone away.

Aren't glutamate and glutamine are two very different molecules? As far as I know, glutamate is essentially the same as MSG, which can be neurotoxic at certain levels. On the other hand glutamine is an essential amino acid contained in many protein rich foods. Anyways, I bought some Twinlab Amino Fuel which contains L-glutamine and seemed to have less of a headache than yesterday. Also my pupils still fluctuated, but seemed to be less than yesterday. Overall, my mood seemed to be better, but this could be placebo. I'll have to try a few more days to see. Maybe there is a different mechanism for the improvement by taking L-glutamine rather than VGlut, since glutamate is not glutamine?

[John W.]

First of all apologies because this is a kind of off-topic. I was googling a few weeks ago and came upon some articles on VGlut (Vessicular Glutamate Transport) being implicated in vision processes. Which made me think about czukles' post several pages ago, which essentially said: Piracetam modifies cholinergic transmission and therefore seems to require choline supplements, Piracetam also modifies glutamatergic transmission - ergo lack of glutamine supplementation could explain negative effects (brain fog etc.) in the same way lack of choline supplementation could. L-Glutamine is extremely cheap, so I gave it a shot. I took a pretty heavy amount at first, and then took 1 gm L-Glutamine on an empty stomach. A while later I took my Piracetam and some choline. Amazingly, I felt pretty good. Not 'brilliant', but no negative side effects. The most amazing thing though was this: the day before I had taken Piracetam and had all the problems, I was a bit spacey, my pupils fluctuated dramatically, and I was pretty light sensitive. Yet the day of the 1 gm L-Glutamine -- Bam; no spaciness, more or less normal light sensitivity, and most incredibly - my pupils stopped fluctuating. The only thing was though, I didn't feel 'smarter'. Encouraged though since my pupils finally stopped fluctuating so freakishly (and have stayed consistent since), I have continued to take the L-Glutamine. I've been taking the regimen in Central America for the last two weeks though and I believe the nootropic effects have crept up on me. I would take L-Glutamine then Piracetam early in the day, and then note that later in the day my confidence in speaking Spanish (which I haven't studied since High School) dropped dramatically and I was speaking it much slower/laboriously. I'll grant this could be a placebo but there is no doubt that since the day I started taking L-Glutamine the pupil fluctuations and 'objective' negative effects have gone away.

Aren't glutamate and glutamine are two very different molecules? As far as I know, glutamate is essentially the same as MSG, which can be neurotoxic at certain levels. On the other hand glutamine is an essential amino acid contained in many protein rich foods. Anyways, I bought some Twinlab Amino Fuel which contains L-glutamine and seemed to have less of a headache than yesterday. Also my pupils still fluctuated, but seemed to be less than yesterday. Overall, my mood seemed to be better, but this could be placebo. I'll have to try a few more days to see. Maybe there is a different mechanism for the improvement by taking L-glutamine rather than VGlut, since glutamate is not glutamine?

I don't have a great understanding of Glutamate and Glutamine, but if I'm understanding it correctly Glutamate (or Glutamic Acid) and Glutamine are different, however they essentially produce each other (eg Glutamine<-->Glutamate, with help from water and ammonia). Buying Glutamic Acid itself is an option (my health food store actually had it for cheaper than L-Glutamine) but I didn't get this because apparently Glutamate doesnt pass the BBB that well whereas Glutamine does. As for the excitotoxicity of Glutamine two things have (maybe naively) put my mind at rest. Firstly excitotoxicity would be derived from an excessive amount of glutamate in the brain, though if supplemenation is helping its probably compensating for already low glutamate. Secondly and more reassuring glutamine is a pretty ubiquitous supplement to have neurotoxicity, it's taken a ton for exercise, and can be present in a lot of places. In the back of my pretty standard whey protein for example, it has one scoop as including "4082 mgs of L-Glutamine and precursors". Anyways what seems like a pretty thorough site on glutamine/glutamate is at http://www.itmonline...s/glutamine.htm
Also, Tritium more time with the Amino Fuel might help, but a higher dosage might have more dramatic effects as well. Sometimes multi-function supplements sacrifice in quantity of amino acids what they get in breadth, and there might only be like 100 or 200 mgs of Glutamine in it. Either way though that's awesome that its seeming to have appreciable effects.

[mulvena312]

I've read some very interesting things lately on excitotoxicity, acidic pH balances, and brain fog relationships. If one's glutamate levels are too low the brain environment is not beneficial to cognition. A level that surpasses glutamate saturation in the brain leads to excitotoxcity. There is an optimal window for glutamate where saturation is not reached and cognition is maximized. Some experts point to the body's overall pH levels becoming acidic as a major cause of brain fog. An acidic pH environment can not remove excess glutamate efficiently and therefore is at risk to becoming an excitotoxic one.

My theory is that over time piracetam somehow leads to excitoxicity and ultimately brain fog. Those that have acidic pH levels can not remove the excitoxins in the same mechanism as those who respond to piracetam for years and can easily remove the excitoxins because their bodies do not have acidic pH levels. I want to test to see if I can steer my body's pH level toward the high alkaline side, will I be able to avoid piracetam fog, remove excitotoxins sufficiently if they arise, and continue reaping its benefits.

In order to achieve this pH level I have changed my diet as of today to include only foods with high pH. Alcohol, smoking, and coffee tax the adrenals and promote an acidic environment. I have quit all 3 of these activities this year. In addition I will be stacking my piracetam course with vinpocetine and green tea, both work to lower excitotoxicty (should the problem arise).

I ordered some piracetam tonight. Looking forward to trying to win the battle against the fog this time around or at least rule out this as a theory for why piracetam is only effective for me during the first few weeks.

Edited by mulvena312, 28 January 2010 - 07:21 AM.

[brain]

i'd just like to add a simple observation of mine, that being that the theory of piracetam's effectiveness having to do with a glutamate sweet spot seems perfectly in line with what i've subjectively noticed while taking it. what i've noticed is that there is a U curve for its efficacy - so that when piracetam stops working for me, if i either cut back or stop, some of the effects seem to come back. sometimes that same sweet spot is hit days after stopping the piracetam, suggesting that some system, whether it be glutamate or acetylcholine, is becoming overactivated. what's troubling is that each system might have a different ideal range for each individual.

maybe this ongoing trend of consuming large doses (3 g - 6 g/day) isn't correct and isn't the most effective way to get piracetam to be effective. remember the people who claim that very small doses (100 - 300 mg) are most effective for them? maybe when you're old and your acetylcholine system is rot higher dosing is in order, but many of us have healthy brains to begin with, or if we do have some sort of deficit, such as adhd, it isn't necessarily even related to the systems piracetam works with. in this way we might see piracetam as a sort of "tuner" for different neurotransmitter systems, with the sweet spot being different for every person, and so when the notch goes too high, it stops working or even leads to deleterious effects.

myself, i notice that piracetam is most effective after about 5 days of megadosing 4 - 6 grams/day, which seems earlier than most. i have enough experience with it to know this isn't placebo. after this point, i'll start going though this phase where i become highly overstimulated and anxious, but which isn't exactly bad, and which is then followed by the drug seeming to cease to work. perhaps we should all take whatever megadose we need to reach maximum effect in the shortest time, and then follow by drastically reducing the dosage to 500 mg or less a day. the idea here being to prevent any further upregulation or downregulation. maybe the secret to piracetam is as simple as finding what a stable maintenance dose is? I don't see many people saying they're taking 300 mg of piracetam a day, and curiously, all the people who i have seen say this seem to voice that it works best for them. all the times i've tried following through with this concept i've stuck to fairly high doses, probably around 2 grams a day. we don't know what a proper maintenance dose is - it seems perfectly possible it's within the 100 - 500 mg range.

also worth noting: all the studies of piracetam that i've seen have been within the short-term. they've probably used higher doses, which is what you'd need to see effects within the short term. lower doses, in this methodology, wouldn't produce as strong of as effect - perhaps leading to a prevailing notion that the piracetam dose range is much higher than it actually should be when consuming long-term.

Edited by brain, 28 January 2010 - 09:09 AM.

[babcock]

Interesting replies from both of you guys (Brain and mulvena312). I have been taking Piracetem, CDP Choline and Pyritinol for 10 days now. I started at 4g Piracetem 500mg CDP Choline and 400mg Pyritinol in the morning when I woke up on an empty stomach. Yesterday I increased the Piracetem to 5g and this morning I took 6g. I did this because I have not yet felt any effect what-so-ever in my normal functioning. I'm beginning to wonder though if maybe I'm not noticing any effect because A.) I'm 23 and my brain works pretty darn well currently and can I really expect better results B.) My job doesn't actively engage me in making quick snap decisions where brain processing power comes into play. For evaluating this experiment I have been doing brain exercises on a every other day basis and recording scores as a way to notice any possible improvements. I will say there has been a general improvement in my scores over time but this early on it's hard to tell if it's because of the noots or just because I'm getting better at the exercises. I'll start a thread in a month or so and put the results online to help give a working example of noots effectiveness on me.

[What'sAllThisThen]

I've read some very interesting things lately on excitotoxicity, acidic pH balances, and brain fog relationships. If one's glutamate levels are too low the brain environment is not beneficial to cognition. A level that surpasses glutamate saturation in the brain leads to excitotoxcity. There is an optimal window for glutamate where saturation is not reached and cognition is maximized. Some experts point to the body's overall pH levels becoming acidic as a major cause of brain fog. An acidic pH environment can not remove excess glutamate efficiently and therefore is at risk to becoming an excitotoxic one.

How do you measure body pH? I've got some habits that probably contribute nicely to alkaline, but also some that contribute to acidity.



Babcock, I would say to test your improvement in the brain exercises you definitely have to stop playing them. You will get better at anything that you practice. If you want to get better, then keep playing. If you want to know if it's the supplements that caused improvement then stop. Test a few times before the supplements to get a baseline score, then take the supplements for some time and test again.

[babcock]

I've read some very interesting things lately on excitotoxicity, acidic pH balances, and brain fog relationships. If one's glutamate levels are too low the brain environment is not beneficial to cognition. A level that surpasses glutamate saturation in the brain leads to excitotoxcity. There is an optimal window for glutamate where saturation is not reached and cognition is maximized. Some experts point to the body's overall pH levels becoming acidic as a major cause of brain fog. An acidic pH environment can not remove excess glutamate efficiently and therefore is at risk to becoming an excitotoxic one.

How do you measure body pH? I've got some habits that probably contribute nicely to alkaline, but also some that contribute to acidity.



Babcock, I would say to test your improvement in the brain exercises you definitely have to stop playing them. You will get better at anything that you practice. If you want to get better, then keep playing. If you want to know if it's the supplements that caused improvement then stop. Test a few times before the supplements to get a baseline score, then take the supplements for some time and test again.

Probably a good point, it is very time consuming too so I definitely won't miss doing the exercises for an hour a day.

[acantelopepope]

i'd just like to add a simple observation of mine, that being that the theory of piracetam's effectiveness having to do with a glutamate sweet spot seems perfectly in line with what i've subjectively noticed while taking it. what i've noticed is that there is a U curve for its efficacy - so that when piracetam stops working for me, if i either cut back or stop, some of the effects seem to come back. sometimes that same sweet spot is hit days after stopping the piracetam, suggesting that some system, whether it be glutamate or acetylcholine, is becoming overactivated. what's troubling is that each system might have a different ideal range for each individual.

maybe this ongoing trend of consuming large doses (3 g - 6 g/day) isn't correct and isn't the most effective way to get piracetam to be effective. remember the people who claim that very small doses (100 - 300 mg) are most effective for them? maybe when you're old and your acetylcholine system is rot higher dosing is in order, but many of us have healthy brains to begin with, or if we do have some sort of deficit, such as adhd, it isn't necessarily even related to the systems piracetam works with. in this way we might see piracetam as a sort of "tuner" for different neurotransmitter systems, with the sweet spot being different for every person, and so when the notch goes too high, it stops working or even leads to deleterious effects.

myself, i notice that piracetam is most effective after about 5 days of megadosing 4 - 6 grams/day, which seems earlier than most. i have enough experience with it to know this isn't placebo. after this point, i'll start going though this phase where i become highly overstimulated and anxious, but which isn't exactly bad, and which is then followed by the drug seeming to cease to work. perhaps we should all take whatever megadose we need to reach maximum effect in the shortest time, and then follow by drastically reducing the dosage to 500 mg or less a day. the idea here being to prevent any further upregulation or downregulation. maybe the secret to piracetam is as simple as finding what a stable maintenance dose is? I don't see many people saying they're taking 300 mg of piracetam a day, and curiously, all the people who i have seen say this seem to voice that it works best for them. all the times i've tried following through with this concept i've stuck to fairly high doses, probably around 2 grams a day. we don't know what a proper maintenance dose is - it seems perfectly possible it's within the 100 - 500 mg range.

also worth noting: all the studies of piracetam that i've seen have been within the short-term. they've probably used higher doses, which is what you'd need to see effects within the short term. lower doses, in this methodology, wouldn't produce as strong of as effect - perhaps leading to a prevailing notion that the piracetam dose range is much higher than it actually should be when consuming long-term.

Good points all around, but I want to add that I have personally experimented with "micro-dosing" as it as been called, to no benefit. In the past, an amount as small as 100mg piracetam would still produce noticeably negative effects, even after a period where I hadn't used piracetam for at least a month.

Just to sum up some recent theories, we have:

-Acidic pH levels reduce body's ability to eliminate excess glutamate.

-Excitotoxicity/excess glutamate

-Adrenals/Aldosterone insufficiency or insufficient cholesterol and therefore other hormones

-Glutamine insufficiency? Glutamate insufficiency?



I was reading through some of my old notes on my supplement regime, and it appears that while I was taking L-Pyroglutamic Acid, I experienced a temporary boost in piracetam's efficacy (or at least my general sense of well-being). If someone has some available, it's worth trying.

Still haven't tried my new piracetam but I will when the opportunity presents itself. Good work on the theories and research guys, I'm glad that some of you seem to be fixated with the piracetam question also.

[mulvena312]

I've read some very interesting things lately on excitotoxicity, acidic pH balances, and brain fog relationships. If one's glutamate levels are too low the brain environment is not beneficial to cognition. A level that surpasses glutamate saturation in the brain leads to excitotoxcity. There is an optimal window for glutamate where saturation is not reached and cognition is maximized. Some experts point to the body's overall pH levels becoming acidic as a major cause of brain fog. An acidic pH environment can not remove excess glutamate efficiently and therefore is at risk to becoming an excitotoxic one.

How do you measure body pH? I've got some habits that probably contribute nicely to alkaline, but also some that contribute to acidity.

Apparently from researching it is very easy to measure pH. All you need is litmus strips. Place under the tongue an hour before eating. This weekend I will figure out where to track some down.


Brain, micro dosing worked for me fog free. The effects were decent but very subtle. Nowhere near as strong as an initial attack dose. The attack doses are amazing for me. There are responders who use standard dosages for years with continual effects comparable to initial dosage. My goal is to discover a way to join this group.

Today, I went on the high PH/ anti-acidic food diet. Haha, I felt great all day on 3 hrs of sleep. Lots of energy, better mood, cognitively sharper. Was definitely not expecting a noticeable physical effect. I most likely was very acidic. We will find out when I can score some litmus strips. Even if piracetam does not work long term on this diet, I'm definitely sticking to the diet if it continues to help me feel so great! Fyi - I am in decent shape, workout, not overweight, and previously very rarely if ever ate junk food or fast food.

[mulvena312]

Good points all around, but I want to add that I have personally experimented with "micro-dosing" as it as been called, to no benefit. In the past, an amount as small as 100mg piracetam would still produce noticeably negative effects, even after a period where I hadn't used piracetam for at least a month.

Just to sum up some recent theories, we have:

-Acidic pH levels reduce body's ability to eliminate excess glutamate.

-Excitotoxicity/excess glutamate

-Adrenals/Aldosterone insufficiency or insufficient cholesterol and therefore other hormones

-Glutamine insufficiency? Glutamate insufficiency?

Acantelopepope, thank you for summing up the recent theories. Another theory we must not forget is possible lack of source quality/contamination/COA integrity for some suppliers.

Edited by mulvena312, 29 January 2010 - 02:56 AM.

[John W.]

i'd just like to add a simple observation of mine, that being that the theory of piracetam's effectiveness having to do with a glutamate sweet spot seems perfectly in line with what i've subjectively noticed while taking it. what i've noticed is that there is a U curve for its efficacy - so that when piracetam stops working for me, if i either cut back or stop, some of the effects seem to come back. sometimes that same sweet spot is hit days after stopping the piracetam, suggesting that some system, whether it be glutamate or acetylcholine, is becoming overactivated. what's troubling is that each system might have a different ideal range for each individual.

maybe this ongoing trend of consuming large doses (3 g - 6 g/day) isn't correct and isn't the most effective way to get piracetam to be effective. remember the people who claim that very small doses (100 - 300 mg) are most effective for them? maybe when you're old and your acetylcholine system is rot higher dosing is in order, but many of us have healthy brains to begin with, or if we do have some sort of deficit, such as adhd, it isn't necessarily even related to the systems piracetam works with. in this way we might see piracetam as a sort of "tuner" for different neurotransmitter systems, with the sweet spot being different for every person, and so when the notch goes too high, it stops working or even leads to deleterious effects.

myself, i notice that piracetam is most effective after about 5 days of megadosing 4 - 6 grams/day, which seems earlier than most. i have enough experience with it to know this isn't placebo. after this point, i'll start going though this phase where i become highly overstimulated and anxious, but which isn't exactly bad, and which is then followed by the drug seeming to cease to work. perhaps we should all take whatever megadose we need to reach maximum effect in the shortest time, and then follow by drastically reducing the dosage to 500 mg or less a day. the idea here being to prevent any further upregulation or downregulation. maybe the secret to piracetam is as simple as finding what a stable maintenance dose is? I don't see many people saying they're taking 300 mg of piracetam a day, and curiously, all the people who i have seen say this seem to voice that it works best for them. all the times i've tried following through with this concept i've stuck to fairly high doses, probably around 2 grams a day. we don't know what a proper maintenance dose is - it seems perfectly possible it's within the 100 - 500 mg range.

also worth noting: all the studies of piracetam that i've seen have been within the short-term. they've probably used higher doses, which is what you'd need to see effects within the short term. lower doses, in this methodology, wouldn't produce as strong of as effect - perhaps leading to a prevailing notion that the piracetam dose range is much higher than it actually should be when consuming long-term.

Good points all around, but I want to add that I have personally experimented with "micro-dosing" as it as been called, to no benefit. In the past, an amount as small as 100mg piracetam would still produce noticeably negative effects, even after a period where I hadn't used piracetam for at least a month.

Just to sum up some recent theories, we have:

-Acidic pH levels reduce body's ability to eliminate excess glutamate.

-Excitotoxicity/excess glutamate

-Adrenals/Aldosterone insufficiency or insufficient cholesterol and therefore other hormones

-Glutamine insufficiency? Glutamate insufficiency?



I was reading through some of my old notes on my supplement regime, and it appears that while I was taking L-Pyroglutamic Acid, I experienced a temporary boost in piracetam's efficacy (or at least my general sense of well-being). If someone has some available, it's worth trying.

Still haven't tried my new piracetam but I will when the opportunity presents itself. Good work on the theories and research guys, I'm glad that some of you seem to be fixated with the piracetam question also.

Ok guys as has been noted there's essentially two new theories here, I really think the culprit of glutamate is something really worthwhile examining and for me its made a big difference, so I've got a proposition to test it with only a $6.00 investment. Firstly, the two theories are basically that Piracetam woes are caused by:
1.) Insufficient Glutamate
2.)Excessive Glutamate

So here's how we test it. Buy a small bottle of L-Glutamine (which at my local store costs about 6.00 for a month’s supply). Take 1 gm but do so on an emtpy stomach and without other amino acids. About 30 minutes later take a relatively small dose of piracetam, we'll say 700 mg. Now we should be able to confirm right away one of the theories, if either is valid. If the problem is insufficient glutamate, then adding the supplement should remedy this, and you should notice a difference. In addition to subjective measures, I believe the pupil test can serve as an 'objective' measure of the degree of negative response, as glutamate has been implicated in certain vision processes.

Now, this could have alternatively confirmed hypothesis 2, as if the second theory is correct you will feel worse with the supplement. (I can say I’ve taken as much as 2 grams piracetam and 2 grams glutamine simultaneously and not felt bad, so I wouldn’t worry about anything like your head exploding from this experiment if theory 2 is correct). If excitotoxicity is the problem, the low dose of piracetam combined with increasing glutamate should make you feel brain fog equivalent to or maybe even worse than a higher/regular dose of piracetam. Now if this is the case move to the next step, which is to increase to your ability to process what appears to be excessive glutamate. Try eating high pH, but also if possible add magnesium and taurine, both of which will reduce excitotoxicity from glutamate.

And presto, we've got a nice little experiment with what seems to be really promising mechanism of action of Piracetam, and hopefully the solution to non/negative response to it. Post your results and we can draw conclusions from there. For me, I performed it and got as far as the first step, at which point I felt better and pupil fluctuation dropped.

Notes-

If you weigh significantly over or under 180 adjust the Piracetam dose, just for consistency's sake. I weigh 180 and made the 700 mg estimate accordingly, so if your weight is far from that consider the equation 3.888 mg's per pound (eg 3.888x180=700mgs).

The experiment could technically be performed in the reverse (first adjust diet etc. then try L-Glutamine but this would be much more imprecise. The high pH foods eaten could also be high in glutamine which could make things much more confusing.

[acantelopepope]

Good plan, John. I forget, though: what is your history with piracetam? Did you respond positively then negatively? Vice versa?

Also, I think that L-Pyroglutamic Acid should be tested with the same methods as glutamine.

Edited by acantelopepope, 29 January 2010 - 06:42 AM.

[Invariant]

Just dropping this regarding glutamate excitotoxicity:

http://www.sciencedi...441cdb2f0b3e26a

Curcumin protects against glutamate excitotoxicity in rat cerebral cortical neurons by increasing brain-derived neurotrophic factor level and activating TrkB

[recitative]

In the past I found that L-Pyroglutamic Acid seemed to cause a "brain fog" similar to one caused by piracetam.

Good plan, John. I forget, though: what is your history with piracetam? Did you respond positively then negatively? Vice versa?

Also, I think that L-Pyroglutamic Acid should be tested with the same methods as glutamine.

[mulvena312]

Piracetam came in the mail yesterday. There was 4 inches of snow on the road but I didnt care. Drove and picked up the package. Immediately dosed.

Effects from day 1 & day 2 results - euphoria, laser fast thoughts, creativeness, better verbalization, concentration, memory, music sounds better, everything is interesting (even boring things), limitless brain energy.

The above are all great initial side effects.. However they all sound like deja vu. Previously these side effects would last for 1-2 weeks with no fog. Then I would get the effects followed by late afternoon fog that would not go away (even with additional dosing, micro dosing etc).

My attack plan:

Adrenals (ensure response)
----------
-Quit smoking, drinking alcohol, coffee (each for 30+ days)
-Sea Salt and eleuthero for 30 days

Choline (headaches)
--------
-DMAE morning
-Eggs/lechithin to subdue headaches

Excitotoxicity (brain fog)
---------------
-Green tea
-Vinpocetine
-Tumeric (contains curcumin)
-B & multi vitamins
-High Alkaline/low acidic pH diet

Shelf-life of product
------------------
-storing in refrigerator


The true tests comes in 1-2 weeks. Lets see if I can make it without the fog. I'm attack dosing. 6 grams spread yesterday. 5 gm spread today. Will probably spread 4gm tomorrow.


P.S. - side note: last night for our date my g/f and I were snowed in. I read her posts from the Isochroma guy for a few hours. We laughed the night away, haha.

Edited by mulvena312, 01 February 2010 - 01:55 AM.

[viltro]

Well, I'm another fluctuating non-responder. Is the fluctuation actually a conclusive symptom of low adolsterone?

I've been experimenting with piracetam for the past 5 days. The first day I got subtle but definite effects at 1000mg. The next day I tried 800mg and ramping, with no luck. I next couple of days I tried 1000mg 2-3 times a day which results in nothing but headaches. The past too days I've been eating lots of eggs which seems to have solved that for now, but I have still been unable to reproduce the effects. Today I've had 1200mg three times, spaced about 3 hours. Since I'm not experiencing headaches I may try a 2000mg or higher dose this evening. Unless anyone else has suggestions?

[babcock]

Well, I'm another fluctuating non-responder. Is the fluctuation actually a conclusive symptom of low adolsterone?

I've been experimenting with piracetam for the past 5 days. The first day I got subtle but definite effects at 1000mg. The next day I tried 800mg and ramping, with no luck. I next couple of days I tried 1000mg 2-3 times a day which results in nothing but headaches. The past too days I've been eating lots of eggs which seems to have solved that for now, but I have still been unable to reproduce the effects. Today I've had 1200mg three times, spaced about 3 hours. Since I'm not experiencing headaches I may try a 2000mg or higher dose this evening. Unless anyone else has suggestions?

Viltro,

I've been taking 4-6g every morning with 500 mg CDP Choline and 400 mg Pyritinol (one time per day) and I just started feeling effects yesterday (2 weeks since I started). I'm not gonna say the effect was beneficial (in doing my job, writing code) but I definitely noticed it. This morning I noticed it too and read some medical journal articles. I noticed that rather than skipping the medical jargon (like I usually do) I was able to pronounce the words fully in my head in little to no time. I did notice last night before I went to bed that I started getting on and off head aches. I went to bed without taking anything and they didn't bother me anymore. I'm going to stick the usage out till the end of this week at least and then I'll prolly stop and only use piracetem when i need to do a lot of reading etc.

In your situation I would give it at least one more week.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: P.S. My eyes fluctuate a lot too but I think it's because my body seems to be typically dehydrated. The only time I could ever get my eye fluctuations to stop was when I made myself consume water all day. Normally I don't ever have an urge to hydrate and I seem to be fine. I wouldn't say that eye fluctuation is conclusive because it can be caused by other things than just low adolsterone levels.

Edited by babcock, 02 February 2010 - 04:30 PM.

[viltro]

Viltro,

I've been taking 4-6g every morning with 500 mg CDP Choline and 400 mg Pyritinol (one time per day) and I just started feeling effects yesterday (2 weeks since I started). I'm not gonna say the effect was beneficial (in doing my job, writing code) but I definitely noticed it. This morning I noticed it too and read some medical journal articles. I noticed that rather than skipping the medical jargon (like I usually do) I was able to pronounce the words fully in my head in little to no time. I did notice last night before I went to bed that I started getting on and off head aches. I went to bed without taking anything and they didn't bother me anymore. I'm going to stick the usage out till the end of this week at least and then I'll prolly stop and only use piracetem when i need to do a lot of reading etc.

In your situation I would give it at least one more week.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: P.S. My eyes fluctuate a lot too but I think it's because my body seems to be typically dehydrated. The only time I could ever get my eye fluctuations to stop was when I made myself consume water all day. Normally I don't ever have an urge to hydrate and I seem to be fine. I wouldn't say that eye fluctuation is conclusive because it can be caused by other things than just low adolsterone levels.

Cheers. Yes, after reading all the posts about brilliant short term results, I keep forgetting there are supposed to be accumulative benefits too.

I forgot to mention, it has definitely changed the effect alcohol has on me. Sort of like I can see/think more clearly but I get drunk quite easily. I drank 4x500ml cans of Export the other day and physically it felt more like six pints, but I seemed to be thinking fairly normally. The same with red wine, last night I had a half bottle when I normally would have finished it. I've found this to be frustrating, like I'm drowsy from the booze but I am also thinking about work and ideas - "that'd be cool", "I should try that". It makes me less inclined to drink, which is probably a good thing..

Edited by viltro, 02 February 2010 - 04:39 PM.

[nito]

would mixing piracetam with some table salt put under the tounge and consumed sublingually enhance the effects?
Thanks.

[babcock]

would mixing piracetam with some table salt put under the tounge and consumed sublingually enhance the effects?
Thanks.

What makes you think it would?

[matter_of_time]

I always take piracetam powder with a small amount of water. I think it is absorbed pretty fast, I believe it is already absorbed in your mouth.

would mixing piracetam with some table salt put under the tounge and consumed sublingually enhance the effects?
Thanks.

What makes you think it would?

[acantelopepope]

The first time I experienced piracetam, it took roughly 5 days for me to "notice" the effects, but even then I wasn't aware that it was the piracetam that I was feeling. I had trouble sleeping because I was having what seemed to me as too many profound ideas. I had to write them down. I also had to go for a walk and bask in the night. lol. I went to bed at 4AM, woke up at 9AM without trouble, and had a day filled with incredible verbal fluidity and general ebullience.

Of course, that was just the first moment I can track my response back to. Needless to say, it does not make you superhuman, you do need sleep still, you are not GOD, etc. etc.

And the effects did not last, in the end. So here we are.

RE salt with piracetam: salt does not enhance aldosterone, in fact it suppresses it slightly. Still, if you are not producing enough aldosterone, you are likely sodium deficient, which is the reason it is recommended to take salt if you fail the pupil test.

I'm leaning away from the aldosterone theory now-- it is still valid, of course, but I have a feeling (based upon the evidence) that most non-responders and negative-responders are that way because of something else (see earlier posts for current theories).

RE "non-response" after 5 days: give it 2 weeks. Headaches are a good sign in my book: it means acetylcholine receptor growth, from what I understand. Just keep the natural choline intake high. I would suggest minimizing artificial sources of choline, but those work also.

BTW, I have too much aniracetam (sealed) and piracetam for my own good; it's for sale if anyone is interested. No tampering, promise.

[babcock]

The first time I experienced piracetam, it took roughly 5 days for me to "notice" the effects, but even then I wasn't aware that it was the piracetam that I was feeling. I had trouble sleeping because I was having what seemed to me as too many profound ideas. I had to write them down. I also had to go for a walk and bask in the night. lol. I went to bed at 4AM, woke up at 9AM without trouble, and had a day filled with incredible verbal fluidity and general ebullience.

Of course, that was just the first moment I can track my response back to. Needless to say, it does not make you superhuman, you do need sleep still, you are not GOD, etc. etc.

And the effects did not last, in the end. So here we are.

RE salt with piracetam: salt does not enhance aldosterone, in fact it suppresses it slightly. Still, if you are not producing enough aldosterone, you are likely sodium deficient, which is the reason it is recommended to take salt if you fail the pupil test.

I'm leaning away from the aldosterone theory now-- it is still valid, of course, but I have a feeling (based upon the evidence) that most non-responders and negative-responders are that way because of something else (see earlier posts for current theories).

RE "non-response" after 5 days: give it 2 weeks. Headaches are a good sign in my book: it means acetylcholine receptor growth, from what I understand. Just keep the natural choline intake high. I would suggest minimizing artificial sources of choline, but those work also.

BTW, I have too much aniracetam (sealed) and piracetam for my own good; it's for sale if anyone is interested. No tampering, promise.

Damn, So jealous of you guys who have these "profound" experiences. :-P

Yea, so headache is coming on right now I can feel it. I'm not one to get headaches and these "receptor growth headaches" are odd ones. From my experience it'll be a throb like minor pain for maybe 2-4 seconds with these periods occurring a few times an hour.

Acantelopepope, could you give some insight into why these headaches indicate receptor growth and maybe why this occurs? Have we pinned down what causes the headaches?

Anyway, noots are working, I can feel them. Just doesn't seem to be what I was hoping for.

[viltro]

Can anyone shed light on what happened to Isochroma? The first time I came to imminst was shortly after the "delete my account" threat. It seems he was taking very large doses and experienced worsening megalomania.

Do you guys think his experience was genuine, perhaps fabricated claims or simply placebo(or perhaps attributable some other factor)?

Edited by viltro, 02 February 2010 - 08:09 PM.

[babcock]

Can anyone shed light on what happened to Isochroma? The first time I came to imminst was shortly after the "delete my account" threat. It seems he was taking very large doses and experienced worsening megalomania.

Do you guys think his experience was genuine, perhaps fabricated claims or simply placebo(or perhaps attributable some other factor)?

I have read most of his posts and I think there may be some personal/mental/placebo affects going on. Or maybe his body is just way more special than normal with regard to racetams. Reading his posts, (which are very well written) I think he enjoyed the attention they generated mostly because his "experiences" using racetems seemed to be near hallucinogenic. I guess I'm somewhat biased to this opinion as I can tell that my body is jealous it hasn't reacted as well to piracetem but I honestly haven't come across anyone else as manic as Isochroma. He was in love with racetems as he even kept a website listing current racetem prices gathered from various places for reference.

I think I could give a desperate person a placebo any day and give them false hopes and false dreams of what the placebo will do and if they're desperate enough they'll unconsciously compensate to convince themselves it does everything promised.

I'm not saying racetems have no effect because they certainly do. I have experienced the effects myself. But my personal experiences are no where as profound as some report. I wish I could have had the experiences Isochroma and others report but racetems are no "miracle smart drug" I'm sure. I hope that we find a way to control the effects better and that's why I enjoy following this thread and trying to help share my experiences from a controlled standpoint.

[nito]

Can anyone shed light on what happened to Isochroma? The first time I came to imminst was shortly after the "delete my account" threat. It seems he was taking very large doses and experienced worsening megalomania.

Do you guys think his experience was genuine, perhaps fabricated claims or simply placebo(or perhaps attributable some other factor)?

To be honest, he used to write in such eloquent way, which made me think maybe it's piracetam. But i don't think i can say it was due to piracetam alone. I think he always professed some sort of a written ability.
He spent so much time here talking about his experiences , if it did work and he experienced what he does then would he still come on here and share them so frequently? I'm not sure what to believe becasue he described it as some sort of a "god drug". Maybe he was the luckiest user or it was a big exaggeration!

[Animal]

I thought it was rather obvious that Isochroma experienced a manic episode due to the absurd amounts of piracetam he was consuming. Delusions of grandeur are extremely common during these episodes, and he displayed plenty of evidence of this particular characteristic with his allusions to becoming a god or superhuman. Of course he had plenty of time to come to this site and describe his experience in detail, he was unemployed and lived alone, so there was no-one to recognise what would have been an obvious change in behaviour.

It seems to me that a substance induced hypomanic response is often evident in the individuals who claim to experience 'profound' effects from piracetam, and hypomania by it's very nature is a transitory state. Hence the common complaints of a lack of sensitivity after a few weeks. Needing to go and "bask in the night" or having days filled with "incredible exuberance" is not the typical response to racetams.

If you actually had any understanding or experience with the manic psyche you would not want to have the same response that Isochroma had. His irrational paranoia obviously got the better of him in the end since he was threatening the administrators of this site unless they deleted his account.

[stephen_b]

Anyone try transdermal piracetam? It's a smaller molecule than even nicotine, which has excellent transdermal bioavailability.

[viltro]

If you actually had any understanding or experience with the manic psyche you would not want to have the same response that Isochroma had. His irrational paranoia obviously got the better of him in the end since he was threatening the administrators of this site unless they deleted his account.

Oh, I didn't meant to suggest it was desirable, I'm more interested to know if it's a likely hazard to be wary of and if it provides an idea of the potential of piracetam. From what I've read Isochroma was obviously manic as you said, however I had no experience with him so lacked contextual information that might help me understand him more.

Anyone try transdermal piracetam? It's a smaller molecule than even nicotine, which has excellent transdermal bioavailability.

Never even seen these available. Have they been used in any studies? I love the idea of transdermal patches. Not sure why, maybe because it makes me thing of science fictionesque augmentation. I think they're used a lot in Gibson's Sprawl books. But I thought generally, transdermal patches are inefficient?

Edited by viltro, 03 February 2010 - 12:20 AM.

[acantelopepope]

Only a minute to respond, but I just wanted to say a couple things.

First, transdermal application is a horrible idea. It would be pointless, as piracetam is not metabolized and passes straight into the urine... defeating the purpose of skipping the digestive system. Piracetam is cheap and you can dose as high as you want (as is evidenced).

Second, nobody in their "right mind" wants to become MANIC. Hypomania, if you want to refer to this as that, on the other hand, would be considered desirable to many: it's being on your game, having more energy, having more tenacity. It's a fuzzy line, and it always will be, between true mania and hypomania. I have friends who are bipolar and mania is not a state I would like to experience. When I said I wanted to "bask" in the night I was deliberately portraying the experience as a hypomanic one-- but notice that I was not making claims of becoming god, etc.