438 replies to this topic

[outsider]

Also let's not forget that everything we take longterm we just don't "feel it" anymore because it becomes our personnality there is a cumulative effect so the difference between each dose becomes less pronounced. For exemple I'm perfectly aware that I have more energy and sociability than before because of my herbs but I don't "feel it" when I take them. Even if I take a mix of 10g of different potent tonic herbs I just don't feel absolutely nothing after each dose. But the firt time I took them I was like wow there is something going on here.

But at the same time I believe there could be a problem with racetams like many synthetics.

Edited by outsider, 19 February 2010 - 04:39 AM.

[ovecta]

Acantelopepope are you still getting bad side effects from piracetam?
If you were to take both magnesium and piracetam together wouldnt that cancel the bad side effects from piracetam?
I notice that when I take magnesium it seems to cancel the over-stimulating effects of coffee (nervousness,jitters ect) but doesnt cancel any other effects.

Heres the James South article someone mentioned

"Since Piracetam-nootropics act (in part) through subtly amplifying neuronal electrical excitability, they will tend to increase the activity of other drugs that modify neural activity taken simultaneously. This in turn may increase both the positive action of the other drug, as well as possibly lead to the occasional nootropic over-stimulation effects. Thus even caffeine may be sufficiently stimulating to bring on the "nootropic over stimulation effect," especially in those very sensitive to caffeine. A key normal regulator of neuronal sensitivity is the essential mineral, Magnesium. Dietary surveys in the Western world routinely show most people to be at least marginally Mg deficient, with many getting half or less of the recommended dietary Magnesium intake (Wester 1987).

Thus, the occasional over stimulation seen with Piracetam-nootropics may simply evidence an undetected synaptic Magnesium deficiency, and Magnesium supplementation may provide a natural remedy to minimize such over stimulation Piracetam-nootropics have been combined in many clinical and experimental situations with other drugs, almost always with a positive, synergistic effect."

Edited by ovecta, 19 February 2010 - 03:30 PM.

[1cc]

Also let's not forget that everything we take longterm we just don't "feel it" anymore because it becomes our personnality there is a cumulative effect so the difference between each dose becomes less pronounced. For exemple I'm perfectly aware that I have more energy and sociability than before because of my herbs but I don't "feel it" when I take them. Even if I take a mix of 10g of different potent tonic herbs I just don't feel absolutely nothing after each dose. But the firt time I took them I was like wow there is something going on here.

But at the same time I believe there could be a problem with racetams like many synthetics.

What do you take? How long have you been taking them for? How long did it take for you to stop noticing the physical effects of the supplements?

[tritium]

During that month, him, his brothers and I averaged 3-5 beers a day for at least 21 days straight and ever since piracetam stopped working for me.

The exact same thing that happened to me last summer after finals. Maybe the combination of alcohol and piracetam has some kind of irreversible effect on the brain. Ever since, my motivation and clarity has been terrible.

[EvertonP]

During that month, him, his brothers and I averaged 3-5 beers a day for at least 21 days straight and ever since piracetam stopped working for me.

The exact same thing that happened to me last summer after finals. Maybe the combination of alcohol and piracetam has some kind of irreversible effect on the brain. Ever since, my motivation and clarity has been terrible.

at least for me, my motivation and clarity have been normal, but I lost the effects of piracetam...

although I have to say that this morning, after having excercised last night for 30 minutes, I took a 1g dose of piracetam at 7:30 am and while I did not feel the immediate effects I used to, during my 8-9am pchem class, I did have to hold back from answering all of the professors questions to give other people a chance, that hadn't happened to me in a while. I also had a weak headache all day...

On the subject of the quality of my prima force piracetam, I also had my wife take a 1g dose this am, and by 10am she texted me that indeed this supply works for her just like the previous one did, so quality and purity are not the issue.

I have a feeling that the exercise did some good and will try again today and take some more piracetam tomorrow morning at work, hopefully the effect will increase.

[outsider]

Also let's not forget that everything we take longterm we just don't "feel it" anymore because it becomes our personnality there is a cumulative effect so the difference between each dose becomes less pronounced. For exemple I'm perfectly aware that I have more energy and sociability than before because of my herbs but I don't "feel it" when I take them. Even if I take a mix of 10g of different potent tonic herbs I just don't feel absolutely nothing after each dose. But the firt time I took them I was like wow there is something going on here.

But at the same time I believe there could be a problem with racetams like many synthetics.

What do you take? How long have you been taking them for? How long did it take for you to stop noticing the physical effects of the supplements?

It's a bit like chyawanprash (like a jam) but I use different inexpensive powders. The main herb is amla 3 to 6 g with guduchi 500 mg, triphala 1,5 g, licorice 500 mg and bacopa very cheap and gives energy every day without side effects. But the best is to take chyawanprash (herbal mix based on amla) the best tonic in the world I believe.

[brain]

So I'm now about two weeks in to taking piracetam without any choline source. I went with DMAE for about a week, to try and curb some of the anticholinergic effects. I dropped the DMAE yesterday, and added pramiracetam as well. I'm starting to experience some amazing results. I took 4 grams at once, earlier in the evening, and experienced no negative side effects or brain fog. Instead, I found that I felt immensely clear and lucid, with my visual perception taking on an almost psychedelic vividness, which I haven't ever really experienced from piracetam before. I got the "first time wearing glasses" effect. I find myself making very clever remarks effortlessly, something which wasn't a strong point of mine before. Socially, I feel much more fluid and at ease than I have in a very long time. I made people laugh 5 different times tonight. This doesn't usually happen at all, let alone multiple times. I'm just making a lot more connections in general, and many of them are comical or witty. I also have adhd-pi, and for the first time I find myself feeling up to speed around other people. I'm very fast with reasoning, but my intuitive faculties aren't always up to speed. I'm noticing this isn't the case anymore. I don't know if this is the pram/piracetam combo, or if the pram mostly doing the good work here. I know that I definitely don't have any mood-flattening or depressive effects. The sense of clarity is really remarkable. As I said, everything seemed to get better once I dropped the DMAE and simultaneously add the pramiracetam. The pramiracetam seems to add a noticable increase in focus which the piracetam doesn't. In total, I took 9 grams of piracetam today, and 1.5 grams of pramiracetam. No choline source, and it's working just how it always did those few first magical days before seeming to slide downhill. I think that my theory that piracetam no longer needs a choline source after several weeks may be true. Unless this is all the pram. Whatever I'm doing, it's working very, very well. I know I've had these thoughts with piracetam in the past, so I'm hoping this holds up.

[Animal]

Yeah, please keep us updated on your experiences Brain. The effects you're getting are essentially what everyone strives for when taking any nootropic, let alone a racetam. Lets just hope it lasts, maybe a combination of Pram/Piracetam is part of the solution.

[pauuul]

I apologize and warn the reader of my being off topic with this post. I found this forum yesterday and I've been completely captivated by what I've learned so far. This thread has been a remarkable read and I wanted to make my first post here, in a thriving thread, so that I can look back at it months or years down the road. I look forward to seeing much more discussion about the workings of piracetam yet to come. I will volunteer my research to the thread once I have acquired some experience myself. In this post I want to encapsulate the developments that have come along this past week for me, as this seems to be a culmination of some lines of thought that I have been following for quite a while now. I echo the hope heard by others here that these drugs might surrender to their potential so that we may surrender to ours. May the force be with you all, noot-skywalkers )

A series of events that lead me here:
Yesterday morning I happened to pull one of the two Smart Drugs and Nutrients books (which I bought 10 years but had long since forgot about) off my bookshelf and read the introduction. A few days before I had watched a BBC special on pharmaceuticals that spoke of trials for Ritalin in healthy adults as a performance enhancer and this was on my mind as I read in SD+N about the doctors' right to prescribe drugs for non-approved uses being essential to therapeutic innovation, as declared in an FDA bulletin in 1982, wondering whether this was still in effect. Next, I went on Amazon to read the reviews of the SD+N books, hoping to get a sense of what came of the public experimentation with those drugs referenced there nearly 20 years before. The reviews were few and mixed, but one mentioned Nootropic forums and I was soon here, reading through the threads on the front page. This thread was by far the most intriguing and I was up late last night reading it through and taking notes. Then today I began with a reread of SD+N 1 and then an attempt at figuring out my first nootropic regimen (mostly based on the information gained from this thread) and the sources to use.

a bit of my health background:
I am a moderate smoker (organic cigarettes lol) and coffee drinker, don't drink any alcohol whatsoever, eat mostly healthy foods but in binges and irregularly, and have never consistently followed a vitamin or supplement program except when I was suffering from an autoimmune disease years ago. This is what I have come up with so far, the discussion about purity and heavy metal poisoning! led me to focus on these relatively expensive suppliers:

supplier/product: administration: cost per day: options:
Ray and Terry's
Total Care Multivitamin morn, mid, eve $.75 # 2 is recommended but poss 3 or 4
Magnesium chelate morn, eve .50
carnosine/carnotine multi morn, eve .50
5htp eve .50
Relentless
Omega 3/6/9 morn, eve .40 recommended is 4 a day but I plan on 2 because I thought I read about
potential interference. but then another member posted his stack and
including omegas and racetams and no one said anything about it.

piracetam morn, afternoon .50 2X800 to start after an attack period to break into the effects.
alpha gpc morn, afternoon 1.50 2X250. might need more but I'm going for a low P:C based on
everything I've read so far.


Any suggestions are most welcomed!

Still researching or considering: hydergine, tyrosine, pyritinol, L-deprenol

I don't know exactly what type of effect I'm looking for from the regimen, but my mentality has been stuck in the same rut for a while now and I'm ready to try this despite potentially becomming a negative responder. And reading this thread has given me high hopes for the racetams..

I'm planning to establish the vitamin routine for a week or two first. Then adding the 5htp, carnosine compound, and finally the piracetam and choline.
Also, exercise program kicked up from a 2/10 to a 4 to help get that hormone production (I forget why).


my purpose for the program:
I graduated college last year, deciding not to further my education in the traditional way, nor to opt for employment. My interests having veered away from my scholastic domain and into the arts, I was now faced with what many creative people can only dream of: unlimited free time without any financial burdens. The circumstances were right for me to develop the set of skills that would allow me to create my future vocation from scratch . The problem that I faced, and which I have consistently been plagued by since, was the issue of how to motivate myself. Not having any supervisory or consequential component that I faced while in school, I have consistently struggled to begin or maintain a productive daily routine. I had conceived a daily work routine that fit my needs and would allow me to do exactly what I wanted to with my life, but could not manage to apply myself to those things deemed most essential. The written plan for my daily routine has reached probably it's 20th incarnation over the past year and I am set on developing the desire and ability to place my actions in line with what I know, logically, will allow me to achieve my goals.

three part plan:
1. Spending a set time period every day focusing on several of the skills that I need to develop. The idea being that if I spend 90 minutes on this, 90 minutes on that, and so on, that I will have a clear idea of how much effort I have put into something after a week, month, year upon which to gauge my progress. However, as of yet, I have failed to follow through on any of the scores of plans I have drafted, often spending more time analyzing the plan than it would actually take to do everything in it. It's clear to me, something theorized by David Hume which has taken many different names in its different applications, that the emotional factor (desires as he calls it) has won out over the rational factor logic in defeating these plans in my past. Parts 2 and 3 are my attempt to combat this antagonism.
2. Working with a practitioner using modern psychological technology (NLP and Hypnotherapy) to create a self-image more favorable in regards to my work and development of the skills I seek. I came to believe that a major part of why I have failed to consistently apply myself has to do with limiting beliefs and fears. I ordered books on hypnosis in an attempt to learn how to correct some of the negative beliefs I had slowly acquired but could no longer tolerate. The first book I read, the Power of the Subconscious by Emile Coue, potentially the starting point of mind-body therapeutic innovation in western civilization, defines and extracts the inevitable connections regarding his theory of the impotence of the will when opposed by the imagination (the latter referring to, roughly, as the total set of beliefs that we hold regarding reality and fiction), struck me profoundly and helped me decide once and for all that the conventional notion of therapy would not suit me and that I would seek technologies based on hypnosis to shape my beliefs directly. I don't have the time or patience for the repitition that conventional therapy would require to correct these limiting beliefs which I knew logically to be perfectly false already. So I began searching last week for a hypnotherapy practitioner, but only found what seemed to be a great deficit of people qualified for the job. Then I found someone calling themselves a 'life coach' who had a background in NLP and who expressed a familiarity with the hypnotherapist who had become center on my radar with regards to studying that field. I'm looking forward to meeting this person soon.
3. Achieving a stabilized mentality that will enable me to 'buckle down' and work with the least resistance and greatest productivity. I've always had excellent comprehension skills, but I seem to have lost the ability to focus on one thing for very long (if I ever had it at all or just forced myself to do so in order to meet expectations). As Marshall McCluhan aptly described, in the acoustic information environment we live in today, people can't focus on their goals for more than ten seconds (paraphrase). There's always some distraction that I will entertain to my detriment. I cut out television almost entirely then spend even more time on the internet than the sum of both prior. I cut out alcohol entirely but pick up coffee in a big way. etc. Anyways, aside from experimenting with nootropics, I plan to cut my internet attachment down to 2x 2 hour stints a week. The fewer things I focus on the better. I hope to simplify my intellectual life by sharpening my focus on the knowledge I seek to gain and ignoring all else. Hell, Einstein had 20 copies of the same outfit so he didn't even have to make a decision of what to wear.


TBC..

[jackj]

I'm on the 'no choline stack' with the rest of it (plus Mg but not regularly when I see muscle twitchiesness). It's going well but the only thing I find it I am sometimes so tired. I seem to be thinking fine but I just want to sleep when I'm bored. I'll give it a few more weeks. I'm trying to get off caffeine currently though.

[1cc]

Is it best to take piracetam with food or on an empty stomach? How long does it take for the Piracetam to work?

[brain]

Is it best to take piracetam with food or on an empty stomach? How long does it take for the Piracetam to work?

You're really asking this question in a thread like this? Use the search function, dude.

Anyway, I wanted to follow up and stay that my continual high doses (6g - 9g/day) of piracetam are still yielding good results. The pronounced low-dose psychedelic-like clarity has dwindled a bit, or at least I've become used to it, but all of the other desired effects are still here. I won't really bother elaborating on what they are, because they're well documented, it's just that i've never experienced them continually like this. I believe that I actually noticed more negative symptoms, like overstimulation and agitation, when I combine it with DMAE or Alpha-GPC, both of which I've tried since piracetam begun to work without them. It also seems to contribute to an "empty" feeling, which is difficult to describe, but some of you may be familiar with.

Two days ago, I picked up two liquid ethanol extracts of Rhodiola and Eluethero, and the synergy so far is amazing. Both of these really seem to take away the previously mentioned hollow feeling that piracetam can induce on its own, and which doesn't seem very conducive to being interested or emotionally engaged with much, and which in turn hinders much externalized action/engagement. I never had much luck with rhodiola in the past, but I have a feeling the liquid extracts are better (the study which demonstrates the substantial MAOI properties of rhodiola confirm this) and may help balance piracetam out, imbalance not necessarily being present without the piracetam. The addition of these two herbs seems to add a feeling of warmth, contentedness, and mood-elevation without interrupting piracetam's effects on processing-speed and clarity.

One thing which is interesting is that the siberian eluethero has been shown to bind to mineralocorticoid receptors and posesses both progesterone-boosting and testosterone boosting properties. On top of this, both seem to block the release of stress hormones while simultaneously increasing the sensitivity to these hormones, which might have the effect of preventing or restoring any burnout. It does seem like piracetam can increase stress and agitation, at least in me, and either the rhodiola or the eluethero or both seem to completely block this, which really cleans up the piracetam "high". I also find that my libido is back in full-force. I'd highly recommend that anyone who's found piracetam to be depressing or who wasn't completely content with it's effects consider combining it with one or both of these. The combination really does feel balanced and uplifting in a way that piracetam alone isn't. I didn't fully realize this until I had experienced the combination.

I have two other things coming in the mail, L-deprenyl tabs and liquid Kanna (Sceletium tortuosum) extract. Kanna's pharmacology is obscure and for the most part unstudied, but it's maintained to exert SSRI like actions without being either sedating or numbing. It also doesn't possess any narcotic qualities, but can potentiate substances which do. If you look at the reports on Erowid, they're almost all glowing. I'm surprised I didn't hear about this one earlier.

My current stack, then, is this:

Piracetam, 6-9g/day
rhodiola ethanol extract, 30 drops 2x/day
eluethero ethanol extract, 30 drops 2x/day
B/C vitamins, matcha green tea

soon to be added are:

L-deprenyl, 5mg/day
Kanna extract, 2x/day.

I'm going to look into potential interactions between kanna and rhodiola a bit more. One recent study on rhodiola showed, I believe, 95% inhibition of MAO-A, 80% of MAO-B. This was only with the liquid extract. This seems pretty powerful, but it's probably reversible inhibition, so it may not lead to any serious interactions. Input on this is welcomed. I'll let you guys know how all this stuff interacts.

Edited by brain, 28 February 2010 - 10:57 PM.

[acantelopepope]

Good stuff, brain. Right now, you are one of the only--if not the only--models we have illustrating a seemingly full reversal of negative effects in piracetam usage. Please continue updating us and if you do experience negative effects, or the positives seem to become noticeably diminished, report that too.

Since your case is essentially what we are trying to replicate here, I have a few questions about your piracetam history.

1. How long did you experience unequivocal positive effects from piracetam (dates?)
2. Any noteworthy health conditions or changes in health during the period beginning with your piracetam use and ending in the present?
3. When did you decide that you were experiencing negative effects? (emptiness, moodiness, cloudiness, etc.)
4. What was your general health regime/supplement regime? (exclude items you think are erroneous)
5. When did you begin experiencing unequivocal positive effects from piracetam?
6. Are there any other factors besides those that you've mentioned that may have contributed to this turn-around?
7. Can you verify that the effects you are experiencing are from piracetam, and not from pramiracetam or ginseng/rhodiola alone?
8. Any strange effects? (blurred vision, light-headedness upon standing, irritability, etc.)
9. Dietary choline sources? (e.g. eggs, cauliflower, red meat)
10. Can you describe your DMAE use history in detail (duration of use, dosages, timing, form, etc.) and how it makes you feel when you combine it with a racetam?

That's all I can think of for that that might be relevant without making you fill out an entire form Thanks again.

Edit: where are you getting your pramiracetam?

Edited by acantelopepope, 01 March 2010 - 07:03 AM.

[mxr808]

I'm completely new to nootropics

I've started with

750mg Choline Bitartrite
750mg Aniracetam

I used the choline bitartrite for a few days and it was completely fine didn't feel any difference but once I added the aniracetam I get a VERY mild headache thats barely noticeable. Tried doubling my amount of choline but that hasn't worked. Is it just an adjustment period or do I need to lower the dose of aniracetam or choline?

[brain]

Good stuff, brain. Right now, you are one of the only--if not the only--models we have illustrating a seemingly full reversal of negative effects in piracetam usage. Please continue updating us and if you do experience negative effects, or the positives seem to become noticeably diminished, report that too.

Since your case is essentially what we are trying to replicate here, I have a few questions about your piracetam history.

1. How long did you experience unequivocal positive effects from piracetam (dates?)
2. Any noteworthy health conditions or changes in health during the period beginning with your piracetam use and ending in the present?
3. When did you decide that you were experiencing negative effects? (emptiness, moodiness, cloudiness, etc.)
4. What was your general health regime/supplement regime? (exclude items you think are erroneous)
5. When did you begin experiencing unequivocal positive effects from piracetam?
6. Are there any other factors besides those that you've mentioned that may have contributed to this turn-around?
7. Can you verify that the effects you are experiencing are from piracetam, and not from pramiracetam or ginseng/rhodiola alone?
8. Any strange effects? (blurred vision, light-headedness upon standing, irritability, etc.)
9. Dietary choline sources? (e.g. eggs, cauliflower, red meat)
10. Can you describe your DMAE use history in detail (duration of use, dosages, timing, form, etc.) and how it makes you feel when you combine it with a racetam?

That's all I can think of for that that might be relevant without making you fill out an entire form Thanks again.

Edit: where are you getting your pramiracetam?

First off, let me clarify what my history of piracetam-induced negative effects is. I never really had anything that profoundly negative, as you did. It mostly just seemed to stop working, caused irritability at certain stages, seemed to prevent me from thinking as much, and was questionably related to worsening sinus/lung issues and causing long term depression and sluggishness after I came off it. Its difficult to fully draw any real causation here, because at some of these times, I was in very unusual situations in my life and some of them may have been stressful or overwhelming. The worst of the effects seem to happen right after stopping, and I'm somewhat convinced that I was worse off than during baseline at these times.

1. I've been taking the piracetam for 5 weeks now, and I've experienced almost nothing but positive effects for the last two. They were building up until then. They're getting stronger and stronger every day. As I said before, I had been taking the DMAE for the week before that, and the good effects really kicked in when I stopped.

2. Nope. I gave up with the exercising, but that's it.

3. I had always experienced some of these negative effects (moodiness, irritability, agitation) with piracetam, even when it was working at its best. I don't have them anymore, and I believe the rhodiola and the eluethero are what are warding off the increased stress and irritability. Two days ago, I threw in 10 mg/day of L-deprenyl to my stack. I really feel the best that I think I've ever felt, on this stack. Similar to how you don't always know if piracetam is working until you stop, I didn't really realize how unbalanced piracetam felt in isolation until I added the Eluethero and the Rhodiola. I have a much more "full" feeling now, which is tough to articulate, but something I had only felt before when I was high.

4. It was basically just piracetam and eggs, which I'm still eating at least every other day. I'm not really trying to back this up in any scientific way, but I think it might be possible that the natural form of choline in the eggs might be better alongside piracetam. That might be because its the natural source the brain uses to generate acetylcholine and coexisting circuits/receptors (again, I'm not trying to be ultra scientifically precise, here). I don't seem to feel worse on days when I don't eat the eggs, so what I'm thinking is that all of the eggs might have helped to strengthen the natural acetylcholine receptors/pathways in a way that other choline precursors don't. At times when I felt negative anticholinergic effects, I'd take 100 mg of DMAE, which I felt was probably less mood-flattening/depression-inducing than the other forms. On week three, I started taking the DMAE every day. At week for, to test my theory that the piracetam upregulates acetylcholine receptors though a means which isn't dependent on neuronal choline availability, I stopped the DMAE altogether, figuring I had given my brain enough time to upregulate, which is in line with the study on this. I have not experienced any negative anticholinergic side effects since then, and seem to have absolutely no need for additional choline. But, like I said, I'm still eating the eggs, which I'm mostly doing for the cholesterol. I'm going to start eating them raw.

5. Covered this in the other questions.

6. None that I can think of, really. I smoke pot on and off, and I drink now and then, but lately not very much. I've found the pot really doesn't mesh well with the piracetam when you're not dosing with choline. I found myself scrambling my words and articulating poorly, up until the day after. I'm not going to be using any more. On the other hand, it's awesome with mushrooms, and I just bought a bunch of these so I'll continue on with that every now and then.

7. I stopped the pramiracetam after two days. I didn't like the effect. It seemed to give me what Isochroma dubbed "empty-head syndrome". It made me very detached and I didn't get the motivating effects others reported. No, it couldn't be the rhodiola or the eleuthero, because I only added these in at week 5. There is definitely an awesome synergy going on, and I can't recommend the combination enough. The Herb Pharm liquid extracts are what I'm taking. My adhd-pi, my social anxiety, lethergy, cloudiness, and memory problems all seem to be gone. This is about as much as I could possibly want from any drug or regimen. I seem to be thinking about 3 or 4 times faster, these days, without any amphetaminic feeling of speediness. My typing is also way waster, as is my speaking. The people around me are starting to appear slower and slower and duller and duller. Reading is effortless, and I find that I have the ability and mental energy to read dense/abstract material in a way that I couldn't before.

8. None.

9. Eggs, as mentioned. I don't eat much red meat, but sometimes I eat chicken or fish.

10. Yesterday, I tried combining the DMAE with the piracetam and everything else again. I did this because I was wondering if it was possible that the rhodiola or the eleuthero might be lowering choline levels, and if some additional supplementation might be even more effective. Nope. I felt irritable, I found myself imagining arguments with people in my head, my mood became flat, and the impatience level went up.

acantelopepope, you didn't mention any questions about recent life changes, and I feel that could be playing some role here. I really don't think it's the cause for all of this, becuase a lot of it is so cognitively oriented, but I think it might play a part. I currently live pretty far out in the boondocks, where I really don't belong, but I'm moving up to NYC in a month and I'm really excited about it. So I'm probably a bit more upbeat these days than I might be usually.

I'd really suggest that everyone try piracetam without any choline source. Its possible that you might score better on certain memory parameters with it, or something like this, but as a whole I feel much better without it. It took a couple of weeks, and there were some days when I was slower and sleepier than usual, and some days when I had some verbal problems (possibly weed-provoked), but I'm confident now that I'm much better off without it. I've spent years researching and trying different supplements, medications, and nootropics, and I feel that it's all finally payed off. I've got all the bases covered with this one. It isn't expensive and it doesn't have any side effects. All in all, I'm really happy that I finally figured this out, that I feel I can fully function at a high level, and I'm just going to hope that homeostasis doesn't come along and bite me in the ass.

Edit: One other thing. I also make sure to drink a lot of water, because I'm convinced the piracetam is dehydrating, for whatever reason. It seems to make a difference. Oh, and I bought the pramiracetam from SmartPowders. I still have 20 grams of it, so if you, or anyone else, wanted to trade for something else, I'd be up for that. I'm interested in trying modafinil, tianeptine, and oxiracetam. I also just bought 200 tabs of deprenyl, so I could trade some of that as well. I've also heard that there is a brown bunny somewhere around here who would also be willing to trade a psychedelic substance previously mentioned, but probably only for modafinil, which is the only thing the brown bunny could see as a worthy trade. Both me, and I'd imagine the brown bunny, would probably only be interested in trading within the US.

Edited by brain, 05 March 2010 - 02:11 AM.

[1cc]

My current stack, then, is this:

Piracetam, 6-9g/day
rhodiola ethanol extract, 30 drops 2x/day
eluethero ethanol extract, 30 drops 2x/day
B/C vitamins, matcha green tea

soon to be added are:

L-deprenyl, 5mg/day
Kanna extract, 2x/day.

I'm going to look into potential interactions between kanna and rhodiola a bit more. One recent study on rhodiola showed, I believe, 95% inhibition of MAO-A, 80% of MAO-B. This was only with the liquid extract. This seems pretty powerful, but it's probably reversible inhibition, so it may not lead to any serious interactions. Input on this is welcomed. I'll let you guys know how all this stuff interacts.

How is your sleep on this stack? Are you able to fall asleep without problems? Are you able to remain asleep? Have you found that you are sleeping fewer hours than usual?

[acantelopepope]

Thanks for the reply Brain. I personally thought your findings about DMAE were the most interesting, primarily because I take an abnormally large amount of DMAE every day. I have been taking it daily for at least 4 years now. It is the first nootropic that I was introduced to, and has been with me the longest. I take roughly 1 tablespoon in powder form with orange juice every day. When I do not take it, I feel strangely detached, as if the world is moving twice as fast. It's probably for this reason that I feel more irritable and generally in a bad mood -- DMAE seems to make me more resilient, more intelligent, and happier.

The problem is that I am all but addicted to the stuff. It has no negative effects that I can tell of right now, but it is a money drain and I have serious questions about putting something into my body every day which may contain low levels of heavy metals day after day. However, without it I do not function well. I get a sharp panicky feeling if I'm put under intellectual or social pressure without my DMAE. It's strange because I haven't heard about anyone else experiencing this.

Back to piracetam + DMAE. Despite what I've said about DMAE, I am curious to see how I feel with piracetam when I do not take DMAE, because if you are experiencing very positive results from piracetam alone but negative effects with piracetam + DMAE, then there may be something there-- too much acetylcholine is a possibility-- when I took centrophenoxine with DMAE, I found that I would get irritable and moody if I took too much centrophenoxine, and I believe that to be due to excess acetylcholine. It could very well be that DMAE + Piracetam functions similarly.


On another note, how much piracetam do you plan to take daily if you continue to experience positive effects? You mentioned that the only issue you're afraid of is equilibrium biting you in the ass, and I would also be wary of that: besides Isochroma, I can't think of too many people on this board who have been able to sustain an unequivocal positive response for long periods of time.

Edited by acantelopepope, 05 March 2010 - 06:51 AM.

[brain]

Thanks for the reply Brain. I personally thought your findings about DMAE were the most interesting, primarily because I take an abnormally large amount of DMAE every day. I have been taking it daily for at least 4 years now. It is the first nootropic that I was introduced to, and has been with me the longest. I take roughly 1 tablespoon in powder form with orange juice every day. When I do not take it, I feel strangely detached, as if the world is moving twice as fast. It's probably for this reason that I feel more irritable and generally in a bad mood -- DMAE seems to make me more resilient, more intelligent, and happier.

The problem is that I am all but addicted to the stuff. It has no negative effects that I can tell of right now, but it is a money drain and I have serious questions about putting something into my body every day which may contain low levels of heavy metals day after day. However, without it I do not function well. I get a sharp panicky feeling if I'm put under intellectual or social pressure without my DMAE. It's strange because I haven't heard about anyone else experiencing this.

Back to piracetam + DMAE. Despite what I've said about DMAE, I am curious to see how I feel with piracetam when I do not take DMAE, because if you are experiencing very positive results from piracetam alone but negative effects with piracetam + DMAE, then there may be something there-- too much acetylcholine is a possibility-- when I took centrophenoxine with DMAE, I found that I would get irritable and moody if I took too much centrophenoxine, and I believe that to be due to excess acetylcholine. It could very well be that DMAE + Piracetam functions similarly.


On another note, how much piracetam do you plan to take daily if you continue to experience positive effects? You mentioned that the only issue you're afraid of is equilibrium biting you in the ass, and I would also be wary of that: besides Isochroma, I can't think of too many people on this board who have been able to sustain an unequivocal positive response for long periods of time.

Interesting that you're able to take so much DMAE. How many MG is in a tablespoon, anyway? I'm extremely sensitive to DMAE, and even without any piracetam, 100mg has me very overstimulated and in a way that isn't conducive to focus but actually causes impatience and irritability more than anything. In another thread of yours, where you explained your history with wellbutrin/nootropics and the eventual crash, one thing which crossed my mind is you might have starved your brain of serotonin so excessively that despite being on an antidepressant, you actually induced a long-term depression. The wellbutrin reduces serotonin, the DMAE probably does, and the piracetam most likely does. The aldosterone deficiency, if a real problem, might be interconnected with this, and more a correlation and additional factor rather than the primary cause of the problems. If I took that much DMAE, I'd be a mess, and I'd probably be infuriated with everyone all the time. Keep in mind that despite having some anxiety issues, in a social context and with some neurotic characteristics, I'm basically understimulated at my baseline state, which is why I load up on piracetam and coffee and cigarettes and tend to need stimulants if I want to feel alert and productive. I'm also generally very tolerant and easy going with others. I'm known for not ever getting angry with people, or at least venting it, to the point that some have said that this almost seemed "frightening" in some way. What they might not be seeing is that part of this is out of fear and timidity. I don't really seem to have that when I'm on the piracetam.

About the piracetam dosage:

I've lowered it to 6 grams a day. I'd like to think that part of the reason people aren't experiencing long-term positive effects is because they're overloading themselves with choline. Both me and Isochroma aren't, but I'm not really sure Isochroma should even be considered here, because he's basically like a freak candidate for a case-report and evidently has some wacked-out mania-prone neurochemistry, as much as I love the guy. I know its mentioned again and again, but I really do think there is some merit to the idea that you stop noticing the effects after a while. The fact that I'm typing about twice as fast continues to remind me, but if I'm just sitting and trying to gauge my conscious state, it isn't always that easy to see. Part of this is because the effects are so cognitive in nature. You don't really feel that much different like you would if you were on a drug which was effecting monoamine levels. I do, now, but I think part of that is the adaptogens and the deprenyl. Christ, even when I was taking adderall at 20mg a day I started questioning if it was doing anything after about three weeks. We know how powerful adderall is. When I stopped the adderall, I found that I was entirely different without it. I had completely forgotten what my previous self was like. Its amazing how quickly you can acclimate to a totally different mental state/consciousness. The fact that the good effects seem to go away when I dose with DMAE/alpha-gpc is encouraging to me and leads me to believe that this is why I noticed a downhill progression in the past. If you read my "no choline" thread, you saw that in the past I noticed to my surprise that the positive effects of piracetam would come back when I lowered my alpha-GPC dosage. I never completely kicked it, which was a mistake. Considering that the primary basis of piracetam's effectiveness is acetylcholine and NMDA receptor up-regulation, I feel confident enough that even If I did notice some reduced efficacy, all I would really have to do would be to lower the dosage or cycle it. I seem to be doing even better now that I've dropped down from the admittedly insane 9g/day dosage. If I begin to notice any of the effects waning, then I suppose I'll lower it to four.

I've been taking the liquid DMAE H3, by the way, but I'm not sure I notice much difference from the power form.

I really don't know what to say about you taking that much DMAE, I find it kind of confusing. Is it possible that you've grown tolerant of the DMAE, and what you're dealing with when you stop are only the rebound effects? I'm sure by this time you've gone without it a handful of times and for different lengths, so I guess you'd know by now.

If you do try taking piracetam again, I might suggest trying it with a reversible MAOI (RIMA). Moclobemide might be a good choice. It can be purchased fairly cheaply here. It isn't the most effective of antidepressants, but it doesn't carry much risk for dietary/drug interactions and should help prevent draining your brain and taxing your glands. Rhodiola also might fit the bill, given its demonstrated MAOI-inhibiting properties. Maybe you could go ahead and continue the DMAE while you're taking it, since that seems to work for you. I'm becoming more and more suspicious that overly inhibited serotonin might be the bad guy in this equation, at least for some of us. I'm definitely depression prone, and I've really been way down deep in its pits all throughout the last couple of years, in and out, usually hitting a high of melancholy at best, and I guess its possible that even though I always considered myself to be low in dopamine and not serotonin, I might actually be low in both. I mean, I might actually be low in everything, as sad as that sounds. I never really felt it was chemical, because I always had such concrete psychological processes that seemed to underlie the chemical substrates. I would usually take the view that it was a circular and reinforcing mind-brain feedback loop. I'm starting to think more and more that this was an illusion, and that my brain was actually sick. I wasn't low in serotonin, or dopamine, the whole organ was wallowing in sickness. My persona reflected this. I think my multi-modal approach here is working very well for this, if it is the case. I know that if I went and saw a psychiatrist, I'd probably be diagnosed as mildly adhd and either anhedonic or depressive. I'd probably be put on a combination of adderall/ritalin and an SSRI. What a bunch of bullshit that would be in comparison with this. Sorry for all the tangents and stuff.

Edit: Its noteworthy that my high sensitivity to DMAE might be reflective of an already-high level of acetylcholine, and that this may be why I'm doing better without any choline source. I've even considered dosing in the 20-30 mg/day range, to see if it's better than nothing, and because the effects are so overpowering at the 100mg level. Did you mean teaspoon, dude? One site is telling me that 1/2 a teaspoon is 1500 mg. I can't even fucking imagine taking this much. Like, the equivalent here to me would be like consuming three pots of coffee in an hour-long sitting. It wouldn't make any sense at all and the idea is cringe-worthy. There is some huge 20 - 30 page monograph on DMAE floating around somewhere on the internet. I believe its mostly in relation to toxicity, but I remember it having a bunch of other valuable information as well. I remember it having like 80 references. You might want to try and look for it and see if it might give you some clues.

Edited by brain, 05 March 2010 - 09:27 AM.

[nito]

Iread somewhere on this forum someting negative on aginrats orsometing i dont't kow. But it didn't look positive regardig DMAE. I was about t obuy ituntil i read that, since iam fed up with CDP.

[brain]

http://ntp.niehs.nih...date_110002.pdf

This is the document I was talking about, acantelpopepope. 130 pages all on DMAE. The relevant information is mixed in with all the toxicity stuff, from what I remember.

Edited by brain, 05 March 2010 - 05:12 PM.

[neuromancer]

So I'm now about two weeks in to taking piracetam without any choline source. I went with DMAE for about a week, to try and curb some of the anticholinergic effects. I dropped the DMAE yesterday, and added pramiracetam as well. I'm starting to experience some amazing results. I took 4 grams at once, earlier in the evening, and experienced no negative side effects or brain fog. Instead, I found that I felt immensely clear and lucid, with my visual perception taking on an almost psychedelic vividness, which I haven't ever really experienced from piracetam before. I got the "first time wearing glasses" effect. I find myself making very clever remarks effortlessly, something which wasn't a strong point of mine before. Socially, I feel much more fluid and at ease than I have in a very long time. I made people laugh 5 different times tonight. This doesn't usually happen at all, let alone multiple times. I'm just making a lot more connections in general, and many of them are comical or witty.

Testify, brother! This sounds just like my first piracetam experience after finding the right dose. (I started without choline, and added later.) It's like having a new life.

Well done brain, hope it keeps up!

[acantelopepope]

I've been sick as a dog all weekend. Couldn't get out of bed yesterday. This may have actually had something to do with piracetam, believe it or not. Here's the super short condensed version:

-On Friday, I decided to cut DMAE out of my regimen for the day to test Brain's insights
-I felt a LITTLE sick when I woke up
-Took 4g piracetam spread out over 3 dosings
-Ate 5 hardboiled eggs
-Decided to take it easy for the day
-Noticed, subjectively, increased visual acquity (the 'wow, that looks amazing!' factor), and creative thought production.


Noticed a subtle, but uncomfortable headache.

-Took 300mg A-GPC (high quality choline)

Headache kept getting worse

-Took 600mg A-GPC

Headache became a migraine

-Took 1200mg A-GPC

Migraine subsided into a headache again

-Felt shaky and weak, went to bed
-Woke up with a killer migraine again at 3AM and 5AM
-Took a handful of A-GPC pills, roughly 2400mg, I would guess

Saturday:
-Woke up with the severe migraine
-Had to crawl to the bathroom (elevation made it hurt even more and I felt as if i would pass out)
-Crawled back to bed and slept the entire day
-Popped lots of Motrin to no effect
-Right after I would take A-GPC the headache would get a little bit better, so that I could stand up a couple times, but it would just get worse again
-FINALLY by about 9PM I felt steady enough to stand up and walk out to my storage to search for a different choline source.
-The only thing I found was choline bitartrate, so I took a heaping tablespoon with juice
-The headache went from a 8/10 to a 3/10 on a pain scale.

Sunday:
-Headache mostly gone, but it's still there, subtly

Overall, a really bad time.

I'm not saying for sure that this entire episode was due to the piracetam, but I had almost no other flu symptoms to go with this, and the choline seemed to be the only thing to make my head feel better. I'll post back soon with a reflection and some guessing as to why this happened.

[werry111]

Nice post! It's really interesting and i think that there is really good for all, specially health lovers. If you are a new gym extremist who wants to have a maximum workout then taking in a quality protein shake or protein drink is vital post-workout. You can create a shake with protein powder after a workout if that’s your desire. Thanks for this so interesting information.

[Animal]

Dude it sounds like you massively overdosed on choline, I'm surprised you didn't get depressed as hell.

[acantelopepope]

Nice post! It's really interesting and i think that there is really good for all, specially health lovers. If you are a new gym extremist who wants to have a maximum workout then taking in a quality protein shake or protein drink is vital post-workout. You can create a shake with protein powder after a workout if that’s your desire. Thanks for this so interesting information.

What the hell?

Edit: Just had a second between class so there's no time to write anything substantive, but just a quick response to animal RE choline overdosing-- actually, my mood was extremely stable (positive, despite my severely debilitated state) the entire weekend. As I think I said above, adding more choline just served to reduce the severity of my headaches, which is what I was expecting given the assumption that I was experiencing the classic acetylcholine receptor growth pains.

Still not sure what to make of this episode, but I am more convinced of brain's insight about DMAE than before. Also, I have quickly looked over the 130 page DMAE report and have found it disturbing. I need time to make more solid statements, though.

Edited by acantelopepope, 08 March 2010 - 09:06 PM.

[Rain]

Hi, sorry if someone has asked this before, but i just saw this thread and don't have enough time to read all 14 pages hehe, but i have never taken piracetam or any racetam for that matter. I did this test out of curiousity and within 5 or so seconds my pupil dilates and constricts quite rapidly, it's rather frightening, as it gets really big for a second and quickly goes back down. Is this really bad that this happens? What does it mean for a relatively 'healthy' drug-free person? Should i be cautious with piracetam? Thanks.

[Lallante]

I think its fair to say that the test is basically meaningless. Many other factors such as hydration, where you focus, and the strength and diffusion and even movement of the light will have far more of an effect than anything you are supposedly 'measuring'

Edited by Lallante, 10 March 2010 - 03:17 PM.

[mulvena312]

I am now a piracetam responder with no fog. No fog for 1.5 months of piracetam. Fog during last week. I read on the internet that glutamine helps reduce brain fog. Have been taking 10g of glutamine per day and this week the fog is once again gone. This is very ironic because at one point I believed glutamine was a culprit. Turns out it was most likely my high acidic diet. I have changed my diet to High Alkaline and Ketosis based.

I stopped using piracetam for 3 days at one point and went back to baseline. Verbal fluidity, ideas, creativity, enhanced learning diminished. So I immediately went back on and all of the positive benefits returned.

The only problem I'm having right now is with my mood. It is very unpredictable. Some days I feel amazing and some days I'm robotic with enhanced mental capabilities. I have tried tryptophan to boost serotonin. It occasionally works but is inconsistent.

I'm going to give rhodiola a try in the liquid form (suggestion from brain) to enhance mood. I am waiting until 3 months comes with bacopa. Three months of chronic daily bacopa use occurs end of march then I will discontinue use. I will try SAMe 1st which was very successful in the past to boost mood. SAMe and bacopa interact poorly. I am in a terrible mood when I take this stack.

I've also tried brain's suggestion to reduce choline supply. Once the headaches subsided initially from piracetam I went off DMAE and choline sources. This worked very well to maintain results. I'm still eating too many eggs a few times a week because they are a cheap meal. I'm going to go off the eggs and see if that helps.

If this mood issue can get straightened out then I will stay on piracetam. I love this stuff! My managers have told me (without any probing) that my communication ability has improved and that I am one of the most creative, best planners in the department. This is all thanks to piracetam. At my 2nd job my manager has said that I seem more mature and I am getting better tips from customers because of my enhanced wit and charm.

Edited by mulvena312, 10 March 2010 - 03:42 PM.

[1cc]

I am now a piracetam responder with no fog. No fog for 1.5 months of piracetam. Fog during last week. I read on the internet that glutamine helps reduce brain fog. Have been taking 10g of glutamine per day and this week the fog is once again gone. This is very ironic because at one point I believed glutamine was a culprit. Turns out it was most likely my high acidic diet. I have changed my diet to High Alkaline and Ketosis based.

This is the same conclusion that I have come to, regarding glutamine, but not for the reasons stated above. I am taking a number of supplements which generally work pretty good, unless my blood sugar goes low, and then I experience brain fog and it is as if I haven't taken a single supplement because they do not affect me at all. Simply taking some glutamine will within approx. 30 minutes allow me to experience the effects of the supplements I had taken earlier. This leads me to conclude that stable blood sugar levels are vital to experiencing any benefits from Nootropics. I have experienced and remedied this a number of times confirming this conclusion.

Glutamine converts to glucagon which is readily convertible to glucose when needed by the body in order to raise blood sugar levels, preventing hypoglycemia. (Diabetics have to exercise caution when using glutamine due to their abnormal glutamine metabolism). It is possible that those who are not responding to piracetam or other Nootropics, may be a result of unstable blood sugar levels possibly as a result of using the Nootropics, which may be remedied by taking glutamine in divided doses throughout the day.

[brain]

Nice post! It's really interesting and i think that there is really good for all, specially health lovers. If you are a new gym extremist who wants to have a maximum workout then taking in a quality protein shake or protein drink is vital post-workout. You can create a shake with protein powder after a workout if that’s your desire. Thanks for this so interesting information.

What the hell?

Edit: Just had a second between class so there's no time to write anything substantive, but just a quick response to animal RE choline overdosing-- actually, my mood was extremely stable (positive, despite my severely debilitated state) the entire weekend. As I think I said above, adding more choline just served to reduce the severity of my headaches, which is what I was expecting given the assumption that I was experiencing the classic acetylcholine receptor growth pains.

Still not sure what to make of this episode, but I am more convinced of brain's insight about DMAE than before. Also, I have quickly looked over the 130 page DMAE report and have found it disturbing. I need time to make more solid statements, though.

I'm going to guess that it's highly possible that acetylcholine sources would be augmenting for the initial 'growth'/acetylcholine up-regulation/proliferation stage. What's key here is that this growth is probably only beneficial up until a degree. We see this with the dopamine system, as well. As the structural initiation of new receptors is booming during this stage, it might make sense that one should be sure to supplement with precursors to ensure the structural integrity of the system itself. Once the new system is established and functional, additional supplementation may not be entirely helpful and could even be less efficacious than not supplementing at all. All it may take are eggs. Going along with the growth pains analogy, it's really only especially important to drink milk while you're going through a growth spurt, and is much less essential as an adult. It might be similar with the receptor up-regulation.