Piracetam non-responders
#271
Posted 13 March 2010 - 01:11 PM
http://www.imminst.o...elp-t39374.html
I ruled out hormonal mechanisms as the cause of this episode because my cortisol levels tested normal. I've also had a million thyroid tests and they've come out normal. But now I am reconsidering it. I go pee 15 times a day or more, I have chronic fatigue, I am, constantly anxious, and I am 5'11" and weight about 145 right now. After reading this thread, I am convinced their is something wrong hormonally. The strange thing is, I am currently taking:
Fish Oil
Green Tea
Magnesium
Zinc
Tryptophan
Theanine
A multi
All of these supposedly improve the aldosterone problem, but not for me. The eye test, which I did last night, was while I was on these supps.
A while back I tried some progesterone because chasteberry effects progesterone levels, but I only did it for a day. I might do that longer.
Anyone have any suggestions for my case specifically? If you are interested in the hormonal side of the piracetam problems, please read my thread and the two threads therein.
#272
Posted 13 March 2010 - 06:31 PM
#273
Posted 14 March 2010 - 12:26 AM
This thread has been extremely intriguing to me. I read all 14 pages. I am a non-responder. I took the eye test and my eyes fluctuate more than the chick's eyes in the youtube video, only after a few seconds. But this gives me the explanation of something I've been wondering about for a long time. I am slightly far-sighted, but I where my transitions glasses all the time. The main reason for this is that, whenever I go outside, no matter how bright or cloudy, I always squint. For this reason I always need sunglasses. Before I used sunglasses, I always looked down for years and this negatively affected my posture. I recently made this thread:
http://www.imminst.o...elp-t39374.html
I ruled out hormonal mechanisms as the cause of this episode because my cortisol levels tested normal. I've also had a million thyroid tests and they've come out normal. But now I am reconsidering it. I go pee 15 times a day or more, I have chronic fatigue, I am, constantly anxious, and I am 5'11" and weight about 145 right now. After reading this thread, I am convinced their is something wrong hormonally. The strange thing is, I am currently taking:
Fish Oil
Green Tea
Magnesium
Zinc
Tryptophan
Theanine
A multi
All of these supposedly improve the aldosterone problem, but not for me. The eye test, which I did last night, was while I was on these supps.
A while back I tried some progesterone because chasteberry effects progesterone levels, but I only did it for a day. I might do that longer.
Anyone have any suggestions for my case specifically? If you are interested in the hormonal side of the piracetam problems, please read my thread and the two threads therein.
As others have stated, it is difficult to put too much stock into the eye fluctuation test. There are too many variables. If you physically feel 'burned out' in addition to your results on the test then you are moving in the right direction by seeking help to repair your adrenal system. I would not go strictly off that test alone.
I had a very weak adrenal system from years of being run down. Adrenals are not something that you can build back overnight or even in a month. It took months or even years to wear them out and will take a similar amount of time and dedication to build them back. Are you committed to sleeping 8+ hours a night on a consistent basis? Proper rest is needed to fix your hypothalamic axis. Are you abstaining from alcohol, caffeine, and cigarettes which all tax the adrenals? Are you eating sufficient vegetables and fruits? When your body feels tired you must rest and stop pushing yourself.
Supplementation-wise Eleuthero, also known as Siberian Ginseng is an excellent supplement for rebuilding the hypothalamic axis. There are some helpful websites with regimens and additional supplements to help with this.
I have been diagnosed with chronic fatigue and I take sulbutiamine, ribose, and extra virgin coconut oil. This stack works noticeably well together and has changed my life. I currently have a full time job, part time job, and energy leftover to exercise and do things with my girlfriend.
Edited by mulvena312, 14 March 2010 - 12:49 AM.
#274
Posted 14 March 2010 - 02:30 AM
I tried progesterone, because chasteberry affects progesterone, but I only tried it for a day, unfortunately. I just ordered phosphatidyl serine, progesterone creme and pregnonelone to experiment with. I will first be getting the aldosterone tested, and if that comes out really low, I am sure I will skip all those and just go for the proper prescription. However, if it doesn't, I will very, very slowly experiment with those.
Can someone please give me a detailed link on just how serotonin is used in aldosterone synthesis?
Edited by OneScrewLoose, 14 March 2010 - 02:35 AM.
#275
Posted 18 March 2010 - 12:16 PM
Although we all like to be sensible when it comes down to price, i feel in this case i would most certainly pay whatever the going rate is for the best.
Keep going with the research, you are helping a lot of others out here.
Many thanks, Mark.
#276
Posted 21 March 2010 - 03:19 PM
Im thinking of buying a few things from smart powders and seeing as piracetam no longer produces desired effects would that apply to oxiracetam or pramiracetam??
Im also thinking of picking up sulbutiamine and Idebenone from there because I need something to give me back the mental energy piracetam once did.
#277
Posted 23 March 2010 - 08:46 AM
Brain, can you please tell me your source for "Piracetam". From this site, some members have listed "Smartpowders" as reliable but according to your entries you particular source seems to have impressive efficacy.
Although we all like to be sensible when it comes down to price, i feel in this case i would most certainly pay whatever the going rate is for the best.
Keep going with the research, you are helping a lot of others out here.
Many thanks, Mark.
I used smartpowders, the source that I always used even when it didn't work for very long. I'm pretty much sticking to the idea that it's working now because of the approach i've used to taking it. I believe smartpowder's piracetam is as 'real' as any other piracetam, but this doesn't mean it isn't contaminated to some degree. There was a user on the discussion page for piracetam on wikipedia who claimed to test several bulk suppliers in the US and said that all three of them came back with unacceptable levels of metals, bacteria, and fungus. I have no idea of knowing whether or not that's true or would still apply or which sources he used. I'm really surprised no one else has done this yet.
It might be worthwhile for the group to pool in and have it tested. I'm not sure how we'd coordinate that. I'm also not sure how much it would cost, maybe around $200? It wouldn't be that hard if we asked members for 10 or 20 dollar donations, and I know I'd be willing to put in that amount for the info. One of us would just send in our current batch of smartpowders piracetam.
Edited by brain, 23 March 2010 - 08:48 AM.
#278
Posted 28 March 2010 - 10:55 PM
Brain asked me:
Any updates? I'm curious where you're at.
This is my answer: I'm done experimenting for awhile. With mood support and the protocol we've established, I believe that most people who have trouble with piracetam should get the positive effects they're looking for. Personally, though, I'm taking a step back from everything and thinking about why I'm taking so many supplements. For anyone else who is currently searching for that one special supplement, or for anyone who is taking a breakfast of pills and reading nootropic forums and abstracts for hours and hours, I would suggest they also take a drug holiday and re-evaluate their situation from a financial, medical, and philosophical perspective.
I may still check around here occasionally, but will not be nearly as active for at least the next few months.
Take care of yourselves,
M
#279
Posted 31 March 2010 - 02:40 AM
I had a mild headache for the first days, then it was off, i suffer psoriasis, some plaques routinelly develop in my scalp and ears when im under continous stress, sometimes in other parts behind ears etc, recently(5 days) a plaque has developed over mi right eye lid(which is affecting my confidence) i started my usual topical treatment with clobex (http://en.wikipedia....asol_propionate) which is a super potent corticosteroid im 2 days on it in about seven days the plaque should start go to off.
Anyway i stopped taking piracetam cold turkey, got no noticeable side effects, but today i just had one pill about 11am and on 2pm got the head ache, the same kind i got in the first week of use.
Tomorrow i will not take piracetam and report on it, also to report on the effect of super potent corticosteroids with piracetam.
#280
Posted 31 March 2010 - 12:08 PM
I am now a piracetam responder with no fog. No fog for 1.5 months of piracetam. Fog during last week. I read on the internet that glutamine helps reduce brain fog. Have been taking 10g of glutamine per day and this week the fog is once again gone. This is very ironic because at one point I believed glutamine was a culprit. Turns out it was most likely my high acidic diet. I have changed my diet to High Alkaline and Ketosis based.
This is the same conclusion that I have come to, regarding glutamine, but not for the reasons stated above. I am taking a number of supplements which generally work pretty good, unless my blood sugar goes low, and then I experience brain fog and it is as if I haven't taken a single supplement because they do not affect me at all. Simply taking some glutamine will within approx. 30 minutes allow me to experience the effects of the supplements I had taken earlier. This leads me to conclude that stable blood sugar levels are vital to experiencing any benefits from Nootropics. I have experienced and remedied this a number of times confirming this conclusion.
Glutamine converts to glucagon which is readily convertible to glucose when needed by the body in order to raise blood sugar levels, preventing hypoglycemia. (Diabetics have to exercise caution when using glutamine due to their abnormal glutamine metabolism). It is possible that those who are not responding to piracetam or other Nootropics, may be a result of unstable blood sugar levels possibly as a result of using the Nootropics, which may be remedied by taking glutamine in divided doses throughout the day.
I read that Glutamine helps cross the Blood Brain Barrier in much the same way as Choline?
#281
Posted 31 March 2010 - 07:58 PM
Ladies and gentlemen,
Brain asked me:Any updates? I'm curious where you're at.
This is my answer: I'm done experimenting for awhile. With mood support and the protocol we've established, I believe that most people who have trouble with piracetam should get the positive effects they're looking for. Personally, though, I'm taking a step back from everything and thinking about why I'm taking so many supplements. For anyone else who is currently searching for that one special supplement, or for anyone who is taking a breakfast of pills and reading nootropic forums and abstracts for hours and hours, I would suggest they also take a drug holiday and re-evaluate their situation from a financial, medical, and philosophical perspective.
I may still check around here occasionally, but will not be nearly as active for at least the next few months.
Take care of yourselves,
M
Amen. That is about the same boat of thought I am in right now. I am cycling off the piracetam and bacopa. Excellent mood and less fatigue is the result. It bothers me what exactly are in these powders. These suppliers do not keep their quality certificates up to date and most of the products come from China. I am no longer a magical speaker but I have retained some things. The fog was my main issue and that has been addressed. If I have to give a speech or presentation then I may bust the piracetam out. I'm going to take a couple months off the nootropics at least. My next course in a few months is going to be directed at amyloid plaque removal/reduction. Then I will do a metal detox course. I'm currently focusing on brain training & IQ improvement through exercises and brainwave training.
Edited by mulvena312, 31 March 2010 - 07:59 PM.
#282
Posted 01 April 2010 - 01:15 AM
#283
Posted 02 April 2010 - 04:43 AM
are you saying that you are certain that piracetam damages the quality of your speeches?!
No. That is not what I said at all. I said that I am no longer a magical, elegant speaker since stopping piracetam. I am only average. Most users report piractem greatly enhances speech. It greatly enhanced my speech abilities. If I have to give a speech, host an important phone call, or need to give a presentation then I will use piractem. Rather than using it every day.
A strongly connected corpus callosum will enhance speaking abilities. There are natural exercises/training that can enhance left/right brain connections and communication between the hemispheres. I'm going to spend time going the permanent natural route.
Edited by mulvena312, 02 April 2010 - 04:51 AM.
#284
Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:02 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,
Brain asked me:Any updates? I'm curious where you're at.
This is my answer: I'm done experimenting for awhile. With mood support and the protocol we've established, I believe that most people who have trouble with piracetam should get the positive effects they're looking for. Personally, though, I'm taking a step back from everything and thinking about why I'm taking so many supplements. For anyone else who is currently searching for that one special supplement, or for anyone who is taking a breakfast of pills and reading nootropic forums and abstracts for hours and hours, I would suggest they also take a drug holiday and re-evaluate their situation from a financial, medical, and philosophical perspective.
I may still check around here occasionally, but will not be nearly as active for at least the next few months.
Take care of yourselves,
M
I believe there are many people ending up in the same boat as you. And I understand that. In my point of view this happens very often with the use of synthetic nootropics but less so with nootropic herbs.
Synthetic nootropics like racetams are somewhat difficult to synergise and make a stack with. I think they are best used alone. Herbs are easier to work with. I had great effects with celastrus, shankapushpi and vacha until I mixed in aniracetam. Then I started experiencing some mind fog. But aniracetam alone is good.
#285
Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:45 PM
Blunted response to cocaine in the Flinders hypercholinergic animal model of depression.
Fagergren P, Overstreet DH, Goiny M, Hurd YL.
The Flinders sensitive line (FSL) rat is a proposed genetic hypercholinergic animal model of human depression. [...]
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15857718
I haven't seriously explored the idea of hypercholinergic depression, but the title is interesting.
Anyway, what I think has not been sufficiently discussed in this thread is the need for balance between different subsystems of the CNS. Neither the cholinergic, the dopaminergic or any other subsystem exists in a vacuum, but is interconnected with variois others systems in both directions.
Especially those like myself afflicted with ADHD may be particularly interested in optimising the catecholamine innervation of the prefrontal cortex, as this region of the brain is the primary location of working memory, which is important in attentional, organisational and executive functions. For example, the working memory will not work well if dopamine D1- or alpha1-adrenergic receptors are overstimulated, and it seems logical to hypothesise that a certain noradrenaline to dopamine ratio is optimal and that deviation from this ideal will be more or less detrimental. The alpha2-adrenergic receptor may be less sensitive to overstimulation and is therefore an attractive target for pharmacological intervention, especially considering the availability of clinically tested alpha2-adrenergic agonists. Guanfacine is the most well researched option, but guanabenz seems an interesting alternative, whereas clonidine is associated with considerable sedative effects. Meanwhile, those who use the alpha2-adrenergic antagonists yohimbine, mirtazapine and/or mianserin should be wary of possible detrimental effects on working memory. My own aversive exprience with mirtazapine suggests thats those with ADHD may be more vulnerable to such adverse effects.
It seems sensible also to begin by fixing the subsystem that is most dysfunctional. Personally, I've experienced the most robust and indisputable benefits from dopaminergic intervention with stimulants. Such benefits include greater eloquence (verbal fluidity?), motivation, working memory and motor coordination, some of which others seems to experience readily with piracetam (or other racetams). Meanwhile, my experience with the racetams have yielded at best subtle benefits so far, but I may not have been consistent enough in my dosing thereof. While huperzine A seemed to have a definite effect on my memory, I wasn't certain enough that I liked it in order to use it daily. Memantine has occasionally produced a strong stimulant-like experience that surpasses methylphenidate, but is subject to rapid tolerance. Amantadine was mostly without effect, but may have been a triggering factor for a hypomanic episode, which in almost every respect surpasses any experience I've had with drugs, supplements or herbs; notably, however, it did not relieve anhedonia - a mission briefly accomplished only by pramipexole. Sulpiride deserves mention as a particularly powerfully activating and motivational drug, but as usual, the effects were lost within weeks and have never fully returned; furthermore cross-tolerance to the related amisulpride seemed complete. Apart from some temporary mild nausea and somnolence, all my experience with opiates so far has been positive, and of particular interest here may be the beneficial effects from buprenorhpine on working memory and motivation, as well as its apparent synergism with stimulants. I didn't note a working memory benefit from codeine (metabolically activated by conversion to morphine) but it deserves mention for the accidental and unique "high" that resulted from an attempt to treat cough with two different cough medicines; the experience may further involve an interaction with other drugs or foods I had ingested, because I've not been able to reproduce it after several attempts. I would not describe it as euphoria or pleasure, but rather a sense of complete freedom from fears and anxieties combined with feelings of warmth and relaxation, and while I wouldn't describe it as my happiest moment ever, I'm inclined to say it was the most comfortable.experience to date. Moreover, there was little if any of the enthusiasm and hypermotivation observed in hypomania, and which stimulants at their best, can only begin to approximate, but there was also none of the apathy that characterises depression. Furthermore, while any boost in self-confidence wasn't as distinct as with stimulants, the total anxiolysis may be functionally equivalent and certainly has a nicer feel to it. Finally, the capacity to enjoy life was not restored as clearly as from the anti-anhedonic effect of pramipexole, but on the other hand, the codeine experience seemed closer to satisfaction. These experiences combined suggests to me approximately what life ought to be like in the absence of disorder and dysfunction. Not all of the experiences could possibly co-exist at any given time, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that they should all be normal parts of a heathy life. After all, its obvious that the neurophysiological infrastructure is intact and capable of producing these experiences, but it seems as though some of the facilites have remained unused for decades only waiting to be put into operation my some impulse that seems to come only from drugs, or from some random sequence of events, as in the case of hypomania.
Seriously, though, I don't believe it's logically sound to deduce that because the effects of cocaine excitotoxicity and possible piracetam excitotoxicity are not the same, that some of the negative effects people experience from piracetam are not excitotoxic in origin. What you're talking about with cocaine, when it becomes "less effective" and then you have to take more, could be explained by "tolerance" through various mechanisms. It may not be due to excitotoxicity at all, but rather excitotoxicity may just be an undesirable side-effect of cocaine over-use. Are you saying the excitotoxic effect of cocaine causes simple tolerance?
This is probably not the best place to expound on the topic of tolerance to cocaine and similar stimulants, but it's a major research interest of mine, arising from both curiosity and practical needs.
Cocaine inhibits the reuptake of the three monoamine neurotransmitters dopamine (DA), serotonin and noradrenaline (norepinephrine) and blocks voltage-gated sodium channels, and also acts as an agonist at the sigma-receptor, but this is only an abbreviated list of its pharmacological actions. Its pharmacology becomes even more complex when its active metabolites are taken into account - especially if the drug is taken with alcohol. In the case of the mixture sold as "cocaine" on the street, one ought also to consider the other ingredients, which in a best case scenario will include at least several other natural coca alkaloids, some of which are known to be pharmacologically active. However, attempts to treat cocaine as anything more complex than a selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor (DRI) are usually reserved to serious researchers and enthusiasts of cocaine trivia. Fortunately, the simplified DRI model seems a surprisingly accurate approximation for the purpose of understanding many of cocaine's properties, because the same properties can be observed in other less complex or less researched DRIs, including (but not limited to) methylphenidate (Ritalin), amineptine, and 2-DPMP (diphenylmethylpiperidine or desoxypipradrol), the last of which is mentioned only for its special roles in the production of this text and as a backbone in my current regimen. To cut it short, given my current understanding of this complex matter, tolerance develops as a result of prolonged elevation of synaptic DA concentratiions secondary to the drug's inhibition of the DA reuptake transporter protein (DAT) of dopaminergic nerve terminals, which in turn induces an upregulation of dynorphin synthesis via a DA D1 receptor-dependent mechanism. Dynorphin is an opioid peptide which serves as the major endogenous ligand for the kappa-opioid receptor (KOR). Activation of the KOR triggers a chain of events, which among other possible consequences, results in a downregulation of DA receptor density and hence reduced opportunity to trigger the responses mediated by the receptors in question. At least some studies furthermore suggest a KOR-mediated downregulation of .DAT, which would diminish the relative influence of the DRI on synaptic DA concentrations. Presynaptic DA autoreceptors also trigger negative feedback mechanisms that reduce neuronal firing rate and possibly a downregulation of tyrosine hydroxylase - the rate-limiting step in catecholamine synthesis.
The model of cocaine tolerance depicted above is likely to be incomplete, but seems to be supported by experimental evidence, including the attenuation of drug consumption observed in rats treated with KOR antagonists such as norbinaltorphimine and JDTic, as well as my own prematurely terminated experiments with buprenorphine (BUP), which strongly suggested not only prolonged, but enhanced, response to methylphenidate. It should be noted however, that BUP has other actions beyond KOR antagonism that presumably contributed to the effects observed. BUP is the only clinically available KOR antagonist, but to be honest, I'd much rather resume my work in elucidating the role of KORs in mental illness and stimulant tolerance using more selective and longer lasting tools such as the aforementioned norbinaltorphimine or JDTic.
Unfortunately, my last review of chemical suppliers turned up only sources that charge hundreds of dollars for trace amounts of these substances, which was out of my budget. The same was true in the case of other chemical tools required in my investigations of targets other than the KOR, including the delta opioid, the serotonin 5-HT2C, the beta3-adrenergic, and the dopamine D1 receptors, respectively. Meanwhile, several cannabinoid-receptor (CBR) agonists have been advertised to me at more acceptable prices and in reasonable quantities; I mention this for the benefit of other potential investigators, because the CBRs currently have low priority in my research, due of course to their memory-impairing and appetite-stimulating actions, although naturally the analgesic properties seem exciting. Several "research" stimulants were also offered, and while stimulants certainly are of major interest to me, the items offered seemed merely to be minor chemical variations for the purposes of circumventing the latest ban on predecessor substances that proved too popular for various drug-warriors' tastes, and as long as more trusted alternatives remain available, I have no need for yet another potentially neurotoxic noradrenaline+dopamine reuptake inhibitor. However, I would be most interested if someone were to offer potent and selective DRIs. Combined serotonergic and dopaminergic or triple monoaminergic RIs, respectively, may be of interest as well, if the dopaminergic component predominates. Currently, I'm not particularly optimistic about the prospect of having my requirements for research supplies met at a price reasonable for an independent, small scale and primarily non-profit investigator, since currently, all known research matierial suppliers appear to focus on the recreational user market, on big universities funded by huge government grants, or on pharmaceutical companies with unlimited resources.
#286
Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:44 PM
#287
Posted 07 April 2010 - 03:07 PM
Regarding the mercury connection:
Mercury poisoning disrupts adrenal gland functioning, which may be related to the decrease in piracetam effects (as i read in this thread). Mercury harms many body systems even in very low levels. I've read that mercury also affects levels of b vitamins. Many people have symptoms from chronic mercury exposure and are not aware. The biggest source of mercury is dental fillings (amalgams). When the cause of the symptoms is mercury, chelation usually eliminates or greatly reduces the symptoms. ADHD, fatigue and cognitive problems are some of the symptoms of mercury poisoning.
Chelation can be done with DMSA, DMPS or ALA (this last one crosses the blood-brain barrier). Extreme caution must be used when chetating. One must not have any mercury fillings or other mercury sources in the body. Otherwise the chelating agent will extract mercury from these sources and part will be left in the body, worsening the symptoms. Andy Cutler has a good protocol using frequent low doses of chelators.
One link about mercury and the endocrine system / adrenal glands: http://www.autismped..._Endochrinology
Since many people try nootropics because they feel they have cognitive problems, and since they may be caused at least partialy by mercury poisoning, it's possible many people in this forum suffer from it. And if that's the case, the only thing that makes sense is to first solve that problem and only then use nootropics.
Idea: See if there is any correlation between decrease in Piracetam positive effects and the number of amalgam fillings.
Jaime (sorry for the bad english)
#288
Posted 09 April 2010 - 12:53 PM
Hi,
Regarding the mercury connection:
Mercury poisoning disrupts adrenal gland functioning, which may be related to the decrease in piracetam effects (as i read in this thread). Mercury harms many body systems even in very low levels. I've read that mercury also affects levels of b vitamins. Many people have symptoms from chronic mercury exposure and are not aware. The biggest source of mercury is dental fillings (amalgams). When the cause of the symptoms is mercury, chelation usually eliminates or greatly reduces the symptoms. ADHD, fatigue and cognitive problems are some of the symptoms of mercury poisoning.
Chelation can be done with DMSA, DMPS or ALA (this last one crosses the blood-brain barrier). Extreme caution must be used when chetating. One must not have any mercury fillings or other mercury sources in the body. Otherwise the chelating agent will extract mercury from these sources and part will be left in the body, worsening the symptoms. Andy Cutler has a good protocol using frequent low doses of chelators.
One link about mercury and the endocrine system / adrenal glands: http://www.autismped..._Endochrinology
Since many people try nootropics because they feel they have cognitive problems, and since they may be caused at least partialy by mercury poisoning, it's possible many people in this forum suffer from it. And if that's the case, the only thing that makes sense is to first solve that problem and only then use nootropics.
Idea: See if there is any correlation between decrease in Piracetam positive effects and the number of amalgam fillings.
Jaime (sorry for the bad english)
It's hard to know exactly what is in our tubs of Piracetam but I can confirm that mine also smells of rats piss (from SP). As nice as that is it does concern me slightly. It may be the case that this is actually the smell of Piracetam and if it is then I have nothing to worry about. It works and the bitter taste always overpowers the smell for sure. With respect to levels of mercury that is something which concerns me even more - to the point where I am actually considering ditching this supplement for good despite its numerous beneficial effects. I prefer mine without the dash of mercury.
#289
Posted 16 April 2010 - 12:57 PM
Anyways, this Piracetam discussion really interests me, specially since I always saw myself as a non-responder, but changed that after further analysis.
Okay, after reading through all the ideas here, this line of thought came into my mind. Due to lack of some expertise on how to better expose this theory, I'll just pour the idea out there and you guys tell me what you think, I plan on looking for some research data to back this up.
Here goes nothing:
So from what we know there are 3 kinds of people when it comes to Piracetam, responders, non-responders and "partial-responders".
It looks like a constant that, after some time, Piracetam loses most, if not all, of its effects.
Reading through some materials on the possible mechanism of action from Piracetam, I ran into this study that suggests it has relation to the decrease in lipofuscin in the brain of rats. Lipofuscin, as some might know, increases due to aging and alcohol.
What I found interesting about this is that it might open a new way to look into Piracetam: instead of looking at it as some "cognitive enhancing" nootropic, perhaps it has more of a "healing/cleaning" effect.(sorry about the poor choice of words, not a native English speaker)
So what I'm proposing is that perhaps instead of having responders, non-responders and partial-responders, we actually have:
- people with high ammounts of lipofuscin
- people with low ammounts of lipofuscin
- people with medium ammount of lipofuscin
This would explain the variation of effects on people, and also why after cycling off for some time, people actually start feeling its "effects" again.
I'd like to propose, for the sake of discussion, that people don't stick only to the "lipofuscin" aspect of this theory, but instead, think of the possibility that Piracetam doesn't have a "cumulative" effect. In conclusion, a person with low levels of lipofuscin(or whatever degenerative substance Piracetam might help decrease) taking Piracetam would be "similar" to a person taking painkillers with no pain at all!
It would no longer be a matter of whether the medicine if effective or not, but instead a case where the condition which it treats is no longer present.
I'm not really sure how to go on approaching this, but I believe age and lifestyle would then play a MAJOR role on an individual's responsiveness to Piracetam.
Also, people should then cycle on/off Piracetam based on their on body's response. Some might take months to "need" Piracetam once again, some might need weeks.
Not really sure if I made my point here clear enough, but I'm anxious to hear some opinions on this.
Furthermore, I know this theory has many flaws, and it would then place most of Piracetam's effects on its action on lipofuscin.
Tell me what you guys think...
#290
Posted 16 April 2010 - 07:43 PM
Hey guys, first post here, so I'm sorry if what I say sounds completely irrational! :D
Anyways, this Piracetam discussion really interests me, specially since I always saw myself as a non-responder, but changed that after further analysis.
Okay, after reading through all the ideas here, this line of thought came into my mind. Due to lack of some expertise on how to better expose this theory, I'll just pour the idea out there and you guys tell me what you think, I plan on looking for some research data to back this up.
Here goes nothing:
So from what we know there are 3 kinds of people when it comes to Piracetam, responders, non-responders and "partial-responders".
It looks like a constant that, after some time, Piracetam loses most, if not all, of its effects.
Reading through some materials on the possible mechanism of action from Piracetam, I ran into this study that suggests it has relation to the decrease in lipofuscin in the brain of rats. Lipofuscin, as some might know, increases due to aging and alcohol.
What I found interesting about this is that it might open a new way to look into Piracetam: instead of looking at it as some "cognitive enhancing" nootropic, perhaps it has more of a "healing/cleaning" effect.(sorry about the poor choice of words, not a native English speaker)
So what I'm proposing is that perhaps instead of having responders, non-responders and partial-responders, we actually have:
- people with high ammounts of lipofuscin
- people with low ammounts of lipofuscin
- people with medium ammount of lipofuscin
This would explain the variation of effects on people, and also why after cycling off for some time, people actually start feeling its "effects" again.
I'd like to propose, for the sake of discussion, that people don't stick only to the "lipofuscin" aspect of this theory, but instead, think of the possibility that Piracetam doesn't have a "cumulative" effect. In conclusion, a person with low levels of lipofuscin(or whatever degenerative substance Piracetam might help decrease) taking Piracetam would be "similar" to a person taking painkillers with no pain at all!
It would no longer be a matter of whether the medicine if effective or not, but instead a case where the condition which it treats is no longer present.
I'm not really sure how to go on approaching this, but I believe age and lifestyle would then play a MAJOR role on an individual's responsiveness to Piracetam.
Also, people should then cycle on/off Piracetam based on their on body's response. Some might take months to "need" Piracetam once again, some might need weeks.
Not really sure if I made my point here clear enough, but I'm anxious to hear some opinions on this.
Furthermore, I know this theory has many flaws, and it would then place most of Piracetam's effects on its action on lipofuscin.
Tell me what you guys think...
Very interesting, sounds plausible. One thing it agrees with is the one "permanent responder" that we have, Isochroma, who uses "bowl o bud" and DXM daily which may very well "replenish" his lipofuscin. The fact that piracetam lessens brain damage for alcoholics who stop drinking also agrees with your theory (alcohol use and especially withdrawal from alcohol is known to increase lipofuscin).
Removal of lipofuscin (or some other substance) cannot be the only mode of action though, because many people notice a slight withdrawal syndrome after cessation of piracetam treatment. If piracetam had simply removed the lipofuscin then the lipofuscin would still be gone after stopping piracetam.
Edited by Novotropic, 16 April 2010 - 07:44 PM.
#291
Posted 17 April 2010 - 12:21 AM
I’ve been taking Piracetam and Choline Citrate since April 8. I didn’t notice any effects on my memory or intellectual abilities, but I noticed a sizeable increase in motivation and also unlimited stamina. For example, on the weekends I can study and read from 6AM to 1AM and my mood doesn’t change...
I feel like a machine or someone on an automatic system lol. Actually, when I do read from 6 to 1AM I have difficulty seeing because my eyes are so tired.
Is this an effect of my taking too great a dosage for my weight? (I am 5’9” and weigh 115 lbs.)
On the first day I took 3.4 grams of Pira and 6 grams of Choline Citrate three times throughout the day, and the day after it was more hardcore: 1.7grams Pira at 7AM and then at 11:40, 12:40, 13:40, 14:40, and 15:40 I’ve been taking 12 grams of Pira. And I feel nothing.
#292
Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:33 PM
Very interesting, sounds plausible. One thing it agrees with is the one "permanent responder" that we have, Isochroma, who uses "bowl o bud" and DXM daily which may very well "replenish" his lipofuscin. The fact that piracetam lessens brain damage for alcoholics who stop drinking also agrees with your theory (alcohol use and especially withdrawal from alcohol is known to increase lipofuscin).
Removal of lipofuscin (or some other substance) cannot be the only mode of action though, because many people notice a slight withdrawal syndrome after cessation of piracetam treatment. If piracetam had simply removed the lipofuscin then the lipofuscin would still be gone after stopping piracetam.
Yeah, I'd say this approach would need some further investigation!
About the withdrawal syndrome, do people have it INSTANTLY after stopping the Piracetam treatment? Because the way I see it, the effect of lipofuscin removal should last for a while, but that period will be determined probably by the variables > age + lifestyle.
Again, I don't want to imply lipofuscin is the Piracetam's only mode of action, but I was reading some studies that show how some smart drugs for people with ADHD might be ineffective for those who don't have the condition, and I'm thinking Piracetam might be somehow similar.
I do need to add that my own experience "KINDA" disproves this a little, since I'm a heavy drinker(and some extra stuff :D) and I fall into the "non-responders" category.
Thanks for the feedback Novotropic, I'm glad this makes sense! :D
#293
Posted 27 May 2010 - 02:09 PM
#294
Posted 16 June 2010 - 09:08 AM
#295
Posted 18 June 2010 - 02:03 AM
Edit: The taste of Piracetam is the most vile thing every created by a human being. It's like eating dog shit with metal. I had to shotgun it with soda.
Edited by rvdvaart, 18 June 2010 - 02:05 AM.
#296
Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:00 AM
So I just took Piracetam for the first time today.....about 3 grams as an attack dose. I feel incredibly spacey - not really focused at all. Is that normal and does it go away?
Edit: The taste of Piracetam is the most vile thing every created by a human being. It's like eating dog shit with metal. I had to shotgun it with soda.
No, spaceyness means you're dosing too high, either your body will regulate and get used to it or else you should decrease your dosage. Some people find the spaceyness desirable. But i've experienced it too and it distracts me a lot.
And yes piracetem does taste terrible. I mix my 3g every morning with a glass of orange juice. The orange juice doesn't taste great but the bitterness is similar.
#297
Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:32 AM
So I just took Piracetam for the first time today.....about 3 grams as an attack dose. I feel incredibly spacey - not really focused at all. Is that normal and does it go away?
Edit: The taste of Piracetam is the most vile thing every created by a human being. It's like eating dog shit with metal. I had to shotgun it with soda.
No, spaceyness means you're dosing too high, either your body will regulate and get used to it or else you should decrease your dosage. Some people find the spaceyness desirable. But i've experienced it too and it distracts me a lot.
And yes piracetem does taste terrible. I mix my 3g every morning with a glass of orange juice. The orange juice doesn't taste great but the bitterness is similar.
Thanks for the reply. 3 grams isn't a lot for an attack dose from what I read. I thought I was being conservative. I will try to taper it down a bit and see if the spaceyness goes away
#298
Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:46 AM
If you're responding that strongly to 3g, maybe you don't even need an attack dose? I think it's pretty questionable that anyone needs it, really.
#299
Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:22 PM
#300
Posted 01 July 2010 - 09:53 PM
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