438 replies to this topic

[ScienceGuy]

Is one cup of Whey Protein morning enough for GLUTAMATE synthesis or need to take individual (Free-Form)?

One more thing ,body can synthesis if they need more GLUTAMATE ,why need supplement.

FREE FORM AMINO ACIDS, including L-GLUTAMATE have very different physiological effects as the COMPLEX CHAIN AMINO ACIDS that comprise PROTEIN

As such, supplementing with 10 - 100mg of L-GLUTAMATE cannot be replaced by PROTEIN consumption

It is akin to the fact that HYDROGEN GAS + OXYGEN GAS mixed together is not the same as WATER (H2O)

Perfectly explained!

Thank you!

[BrainFrost]

Can someone explain to me a little more as to why choline becomes toxic after 3.5g? I was taking 10g+ (stuff tastes delicious) without any negative side effects for about a week. In fact I felt quite the opposite. Almost superhuman like. I have dropped it down to 1g a day and the effects of feeling like superman are diminishing.

I may be developing a tolerance to piracetam, so I can't contribute that feeling to choline alone, but that is the only thing that I have modified from my original dosage.

P.S. Magnesium is awesome stuff! I finally picked some up and boy did I do a 180! Normaly I am a little hyper and I can't get the words out of my mouth fast enough, magnesium put me in such a calm, relaxed state, there was no social pressure. Highly recommend anyone to give it a try and report back. I took 400mg of Magnesium.

Hyperspace and ScienceGuy! you guys are doing a great job! You kind of keep each other in check

[ScienceGuy]

Can someone explain to me a little more as to why choline becomes toxic after 3.5g?

In short, high dosage CHOLINE dosage dependantly LOWERS BLOOD PRESSURE, which leads to HYPOTENSION, which leads to INCREASED RISK OF CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE and REDUCED LIFESPAN

The NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES has established a Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) of 3.5g/day for CHOLINE, based primarily upon the risk of HYPOTENSION

Furthermore, SURPLUS CHOLINE can induce SIDE EFFECTS, including (but not limited to): DEPRESSION, FISHY BODY ODOUR, NAUSEA, VOMITING, SWEATING, GASTROINTESTINAL DISTURBANCES, HEADACHE

P.S. Magnesium is awesome stuff! I finally picked some up and boy did I do a 180! Normaly I am a little hyper and I can't get the words out of my mouth fast enough, magnesium put me in such a calm, relaxed state, there was no social pressure. Highly recommend anyone to give it a try and report back. I took 400mg of Magnesium.

I also am a HUGE fan of MAGNESIUM. It is awsome stuff!

[nito]

Can someone explain to me a little more as to why choline becomes toxic after 3.5g?

In short, high dosage CHOLINE dosage dependantly LOWERS BLOOD PRESSURE, which leads to HYPOTENSION, which leads to INCREASED RISK OF CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE and REDUCED LIFESPAN

The NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES has established a Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) of 3.5g/day for CHOLINE, based primarily upon the risk of HYPOTENSION

Furthermore, SURPLUS CHOLINE can induce SIDE EFFECTS, including (but not limited to): DEPRESSION, FISHY BODY ODOUR, NAUSEA, VOMITING, SWEATING, GASTROINTESTINAL DISTURBANCES, HEADACHE

P.S. Magnesium is awesome stuff! I finally picked some up and boy did I do a 180! Normaly I am a little hyper and I can't get the words out of my mouth fast enough, magnesium put me in such a calm, relaxed state, there was no social pressure. Highly recommend anyone to give it a try and report back. I took 400mg of Magnesium.

I also am a HUGE fan of MAGNESIUM. It is awsome stuff!

Magnesium malate is good? http://www.iherb.com...blets/1444?at=0

[ScienceGuy]

I also am a HUGE fan of MAGNESIUM. It is awsome stuff!

Magnesium malate is good? http://www.iherb.com...blets/1444?at=0

OK, we're venturing a bit OFF TOPIC here, but yes MAGNESIUM MALATE is very good!

In fact, MAGNESIUM MALATE is my preferred and most recommended form of MAGNESIUM for PER ORAL administration

It is highly absorbed when taking PER ORALLY and also the MALATE supports ENERGY PRODUCTION through KREBS CYCLE.

MAGNESIUM MALATE is very helpful in treating FATIGUE, such as with CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME (CFS)

[1thoughtMaze1]

so ur sayng that the smartpowders sold by mike could be toxic and fake? : /

I would say that could be vey accurate, many of the people posting to this and other forums are owners of these companies, mike has posted to this thread is evidence of that, with multiple profiles praising the effects of these drugs. I'm almost positive Isochroma or what ever his name is was someone like mike cleverly "marketing" his products. That's one of the main problems with noots and these scratchy suppliers. I can make you a lab analysis certificate in about 10 on my laptop and you won't be able to tell it from a fake. My advice is buy from major, big, companies that make many other products, I should say corporations, it will cost more but the quality will be superior. Smart powders sells a whole bunch of stuff from other manufacturers and then there is smart powders piracetam or Aniracetam, yeah ok there buddy. I emailed smart powders a question about the stability of the piracetam molecule when mixed with certain substances, and even though the owner claimed to have "two" chemists working for him could not provide me with a coherent answer, what I gat was, " I can not confirm or refute your question" . I'm not trying to single out smart powders, this has happened to me with other companies.

Nootropill is a pharmaceutical grade piracetam, hence the price. Saving money when it comes to your Heath is always a bad idea!

[nito]

so ur sayng that the smartpowders sold by mike could be toxic and fake? : /

I would say that could be vey accurate, many of the people posting to this and other forums are owners of these companies, mike has posted to this thread is evidence of that, with multiple profiles praising the effects of these drugs. I'm almost positive Isochroma or what ever his name is was someone like mike cleverly "marketing" his products. That's one of the main problems with noots and these scratchy suppliers. I can make you a lab analysis certificate in about 10 on my laptop and you won't be able to tell it from a fake. My advice is buy from major, big, companies that make many other products, I should say corporations, it will cost more but the quality will be superior. Smart powders sells a whole bunch of stuff from other manufacturers and then there is smart powders piracetam or Aniracetam, yeah ok there buddy. I emailed smart powders a question about the stability of the piracetam molecule when mixed with certain substances, and even though the owner claimed to have "two" chemists working for him could not provide me with a coherent answer, what I gat was, " I can not confirm or refute your question" . I'm not trying to single out smart powders, this has happened to me with other companies.

Nootropill is a pharmaceutical grade piracetam, hence the price. Saving money when it comes to your Heath is always a bad idea!

wot bout cereberal health?

[1thoughtMaze1]

Well cerebral health doesn't even reply to emails so for that reason I wouldn't trust them

[SuperjackDid_]

Why some post got deleted ? i see lessen page ,i 'm worries about importance post will get delete and new comer will go blindly again .

My first post ( I had to post this); If piracetam doesn't work for you, try a VERY SMALL dose (10mg - 250mg) of Monosodium Glutamate, if you feel effects within 1.5 - 2 hours or earlier then It means that your NMDA receptor was below normal and needed to be excited.

This reflects on the working of piracetam on the brain by increasing oxygen uptake and optimizing the neuro-kinetic routes. Try the glutamate for alternate days for atleast 3 days, maximum 5 days. If the glutamate doesn't work then you could possibly have a vitamin deficiency or lack of acytylcholine with some restriction to your NMDA receptor. After the MSG (monosodium glutamate) experiment, try to incorperate more glutamates in your diet (if the experiment worked),
soy,
cheese,
regular salt (which might have caused the misconception of aldosterone defficiency)
or MSG in very strict and restricted low amounts.

You can also try ashwagandha if all else Fails.

WARNING!!! Do Not Consume Too Much Monosodium Glutamate, It may cause obesity or asthma along with excitoxicity. (it's safe to humans but do not consume too much)

This worked for me, now I'm enjoying the complete effects of piracetam, including saturated vivid vision, enjoyable crisp music, sharp and clear vision/thoughts; and overall happy moods. (with some occasional inhibited effects). Post your results here.

[user1]

If anyone in the UK wants some Piracetam tablets, I have 240 x 1200mg tablets and 100 x 800mg tablets which I ordered from DocSimon, but for which I have decided against using. Yours for £35 (which includes quick postage!), cost me £42.70.

[Wilberforce]

I am wondering if the inverted U effect is actually an M shape. I take 400mg at a time and get a major effect on cognition and mood, I'm even thinking of lowering to 200mg. The effects actually build throughout the day if I dose every 2-5 hours. However, if I take higher doses (1600mg+ at a time) I get nearly zero effect, and this might explain the experience of some of the non responders.

As an aside, L-Tyrosine seems to enhance the above effects, as does St John'sWort, although I usually only take one or none of these in the morning. Choline doesn't seem to be needed, and sometimes it paradoxically 'kills' the effects.

WF

Edited by Wilberforce, 13 April 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

it seems that if you take huperzine A or other NMDA Antagonists; (ethanol too, which is used in alchoholic beverages and causes bad effects when taken in conjucnction with piracetam) it will inhibit glutamates from reaching the NMDA receptor thus not allowing piracetam to work to its full extent. (or even work at all.)

When trying the experiment, avoid taking alchohol, huperzine A, lead (i don't know why anyone would consume this) and Memantine. Overall just avoid using NMDA antagonists to let the glutamates reach your NMDA receptor allowing faster brain function.

OK, whilst I applaud the effort being made to enable more people to reap the rewards of PIRACETAM usage, this is one of those instances wherein I feel the need to step in and 'set the train back on the tracks' so to speak due to matters having just ventured distinctly SIDEWAYS…

You are absolutely correct that PIRACETAM appears to function, at least to an extent, via the GLUTAMATE PATHWAY and via modulation of the NMDA RECEPTORS; however, we need to be careful not to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' here so to speak.

PIRACETAM's mechanism of action is somewhat complex; it would be a mistake to oversimplify it and thereby eliminate utilization of compounds, which may in fact work hand in hand with PIRACETAM to improve COGNITION, such as NMDA RECEPTOR ANTAGONISTS.

Hyperspace21, with the utmost respect, please kindly note the following:

1) RE: "…NMDA Antagonists... will inhibit glutamates from reaching the NMDA receptor thus not allowing piracetam to work to its full extent. (or even work at all.)" - This statement, aside from being sheer academic conjecture, is in fact factually incorrect. You have no conclusive substantiated evidence (nor even substantial clinical practice) to support this statement. Your statement is akin to taking 1 plus 1 and making 12.

2) RE "...avoid taking alchohol, huperzine A, lead (i don't know why anyone would consume this) and Memantine. Overall just avoid using NMDA antagonists to let the glutamates reach your NMDA receptor allowing faster brain function." - With the utmost respect, it is wholly irresponsible to instruct others to takes actions for which you have no substantiated evidence whatsoever; and especially when there are severe implications regarding what you are instructing everyone to do.

I DO realise that you have prefaced this with "When trying the experiment..."; however, to the casual reader you are very much communicating the following message: "for PIRACETAM to work properly you must avoid taking all NMDA RECEPTOR ANTAGONISTS and take GLUTAMATE"

There is a common misconception within this forum that NMDA RECEPTOR ANTAGONISTS are wholly ANTI-NOOTROPIC.

With regards to the connection between NMDA RECEPTORS and COGNITION, it is vital to understand there is a U-SHAPED CURVE, in that both too little and too much activation of the NMDA RECEPTORS causes IMPAIRED COGNITION.

For example, see the following:

Neuropharmacology. 2007 Nov;53(6):699-723. Epub 2007 Aug 10.

Memantine: a NMDA receptor antagonist that improves memory by restoration of homeostasis in the glutamatergic system--too little activation is bad, too much is even worse.

Parsons CG, Stöffler A, Danysz W.
Source

Merz Pharmaceuticals, Eckenheimer Landstrasse 100, 60318 Frankfurt am Main, Germany.
Abstract

The neurotransmitter glutamate activates several classes of metabotropic receptor and three major types of ionotropic receptor--alpha-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazolepropionic acid (AMPA), kainate and N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA). The involvement of glutamate mediated neurotoxicity in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's disease (AD) is finding increasing scientific acceptance. Central to this hypothesis is the assumption that glutamate receptors, in particular of the NMDA type, are overactivated in a tonic rather than a phasic manner. Such continuous, mild, chronic activation ultimately leads to neuronal damage/death. Additionally, impairment of synaptic plasticity (learning) may result not only from neuronal damage per se but may also be a direct consequence of this continuous, non-contingent NMDA receptor activation. Complete NMDA receptor blockade has also been shown to impair neuronal plasticity, thus, both hypo- and hyperactivity of the glutamatergic system leads to dysfunction. Memantine received marketing authorization from the EMEA (European Medicines Agency) for the treatment of moderate to severe AD in Europe and was subsequently also approved by the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) for use in the same indication in the USA. Memantine is a moderate affinity, uncompetitive NMDA receptor antagonist with strong voltage-dependency and fast kinetics. This review summarizes existing hypotheses on the mechanism of action (MOA) of memantine in an attempt to understand how the accepted interaction with NMDA receptors could allow memantine to provide both neuroprotection and reverse deficits in learning/memory by the same MOA.

PMID: 17904591

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Furthermore it is important to understand that appropriate administration of NMDA RECEPTOR ANTAGONISTS in fact produces long-term NOOTROPIC effects via UPREGULATION of the NMDA RECEPTORS and LONG-TERM POTENTIATION (LTP) OF SYNAPTIC STRENGTH.

As such, it has been demonstrated that MAGNESIUM, which is an NMDA-RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST, is in fact a NOOTROPIC; see attached published research paper: “Enhancement of Learning and Memory by Elevating Brain Magnesium”, which demonstrates this fact.

And there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that administration of MAGNESIUM, which is an NMDA-RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST, interferes with PIRACETAM’s physiological NOOTROPIC effects, in any regard.

In fact, in my clinical practice I have often used MAGNESIUM in combination with PIRACETAM with fantastic results.

Furthermore, I like to practice what I preach, in that I myself take PIRACETAM in combination with high doses of MAGNESIUM, and I can personally vouch for the fact that the MAGNESIUM, which is an NMDA-RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST, has no effect whatsoever on the efficacy of PIRACETAM.

And finally, the fact that there is conclusive substantiated evidence that demonstrates that high dose PIRACETAM itself in fact proliferates NMDA RECEPTOR DENSITY, also warrants consideration.

And what are your credentials "science guy"?

[skf]

Im on Piracetam now for round about two weeks. im on rather high doses of 6-10g a day. keeps me wakeful, i did drive 6 1/2 hours in my car with a longer breaks and most of the time I was more focused. trouble arises if i don't get sufficent food, eg. low blood sugar and a lack of choline makes me tired, irritable, aggressive with an headache. supply some food, eggs... bam, here i go.

so, although i experience some ups and downs i would say i'm a responder.
results of the pupil test: fluctuating

this actually scares me.

[SuperjackDid_]

Mean Piracetam not safe anymore ? by interfere with too many mechanism in body .

[Nickotin]

I read through the first four pages and caught up on the last two. I'm sure I am missing a lot of new info on this thread, and plan to catch up when I get the opportunity. In the meantime, I was wondering if someone could take a look at my eye testand tell me if it is consistent with the results of those who have an adrenal deficiency? I'm honestly not sure if that is still talked about in here, but I'm curious nonetheless. I do have fluctuations, but they are subtle. I'm curious because I notice a huge difference (with how my mind works on piracetam) when I drink electrolyte drinks and/or iodized salt mixed with water.

Edited by Nickotin, 18 November 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[megatron]

So maybe this is why none of the racetams work on me. My pupils fluctuate from the very beginning! It didn't even go 30 seconds before it started happening, but almost immediately.

[SuperjackDid_]

i no have any pupil fluctuate ,but fluctuate to Piracetam effect :(

[megatron]

I just discovered that I have nearly 100% of the symptoms for adrenal insufficiency.

[megatron]

So the reason I don't respond to any of the racetams could perhaps be narrowed down to something as simple as lack of glutamate in the brain? If so should I buy L-glutamine or L-glutamate? What's the differutence between glutamine and glutamate? Is glutamate just the acid residue of glutamic acid? If so, what should I order?

Edited by Megatrone, 29 November 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[SuperjackDid_]

MSG easy accessible than l-glutamate ,it also kick pretty fast and strong ,make sure take Piracetam with milk .
SicienceGuy take Piracetam with milk and get very consistency effect .

Hope it will work for you to narrow things down .

[megatron]

MSG easy accessible than l-glutamate ,it also kick pretty fast and strong ,make sure take Piracetam with milk .
SicienceGuy take Piracetam with milk and get very consistency effect .

Hope it will work for you to narrow things down .

Do they sell MSG in the grocery store?

[SuperjackDid_]

MSG easy accessible than l-glutamate ,it also kick pretty fast and strong ,make sure take Piracetam with milk .
SicienceGuy take Piracetam with milk and get very consistency effect .

Hope it will work for you to narrow things down .

Do they sell MSG in the grocery store?

Sure ,MSG also contain in a lot of foods as taste enhancer ,but sometime not list in label ,not sure in US rule .

I know too many choice to experiment with ,but i think you will get the right path .

[Nickotin]

I'm not a hard core scientist so could someone explain why you would want to supplement neurotoxic msg instead of loading up with a glutamate precursor like glutamine?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Michael Campbell]

I'm not a hard core scientist so could someone explain why you would want to supplement neurotoxic msg instead of loading up with a glutamate precursor like glutamine?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

*want* to, no; but it's ubiquitous and cheap is my guess.


Where does one buy glutamine cheaply? (Not trying to sound like a douche, I'm actually curious.)

[Nickotin]

I use optimum nutrition 100% gold standard whey with about 5g of glutamine per serving as well as many other aminos. I also have an old bottle of glutamine that I got from the vitamin shop which I'm sure could be purchased very cheap on Amazon.

In addition I found this article on PubMed which states, " The concentration of glutamate in the brain extracellular fluid must be kept low (approximately 3 microM) in order to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio upon the release of glutamate from neurons. In addition, the nerve endings require a supply of glutamate precursors that will not cause depolarization. The major precursor to neuronal glutamate is glutamine, which is synthesized in astrocytes and converted to glutamate in neurons"

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/7805588/

I'm not trying to be a douche either, I just don't fully understand why you would want to directly Jack up glutamate levels? Anyone?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[megatron]

I searched around and it seems like MSG has been removed from almost all foods in Norway. I really hope something as cheap and easy to get as MSG is the key to make piracetam work. I really don't want to start taking fludrocortisone (it's both expensive and hard to get).

[megatron]

Started taking glutamate today, will update you on how it goes.

[megatron]

I have been taking approximately 250mg MSG for five days, and 10g piracetam for three days. Nothing has changed. I don't experience brain fog, headaches, improvements. Nothing.

[Major Legend]

Piracetam has pooped out on me after a year and half of it working wonderfully, and I didn't even even dose it everyday, there are no withdrawals but the magic is definitely gone

[AndorBandi]

I don't know what the hell is going here recently, but this topic has solved my problem - strong drowsiness. Probably I experience the state of adrenal fatigue, which would not be surprising as I have a strong allergic to everything and I am under constant stress. I ordered 50 mg pregnenolone, I take every day to empty stomach, 2-3 hours before the first piracetam dosage... and it works. I am quite satisfied with the effect of piracetam!

Thank you again!

p.s. It worth to read this: http://www.neurobrai...k-for-some.html