24 replies to this topic

[Davevanza]

I tried Pyritinol HCl along with Lecithin.

Its effect was good, especially when used as an aid to mathematical task.

It does not have any stimulant effect to me, but when I sit down trying to sort numbers, it does help a lot.

A cup of coffee ( or any caffeinenated energy drinks) helps me to perform best at repetitive task such as data-entry kind of jobs, or sorting books's numbers in the library, and driving ability. But it is inferior to Pyritinol HCl, when it comes to mathematical kind of tasks.

I guess, different kind of nootropics have different kind usefulness.

As with amphetamine-like stimulants like Diethylpropion, it gives me the drive,mood and faster reading ability, but I notice little effects on memory/recall.

I read from the internet that Racetams actually increase our ability to memorise and recall.

( WELL, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE ITS MARVELOUS EFFECTS ON MY MEMORY FUNCTIONS.....BUT I JUST HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL MY NEUROLOGIST GET AN APPROVAL FROM THE TGA, BEFORE I CAN COLLECT THE MEDICATION FROM THE PHARMACY.)

Anyone ever experienced with Pyritinol HCl + Choline ?

[Zoroaster]

Pyritinol is awesome. I don't know why more people on these forums aren't talking about it. It's one of my favorite noots. It affects processing speed exclusively so it doesn't do anything for memory but it definitely helps me read faster and think faster. I'm often listening to Med school lectures on my computer at 2X speed and pyritinol makes that process much easier. It's also great for situations where I'm required to think on my feat, like when I'm subjected to a Q and A or something. I agree that there are no noticeable stimulant effects. In fact, it doesn't make me feel differently at all, I'm just able to do everything more quickly.

[Davevanza]

Well, exactly as you said.

Pyritinol HCl even enables me to remember numbers and words quickly.... and I could even spell them out backwardly... this is an amazing smart-drug..

I agree that you said it helped you think and read faster, as in my case, I could retrieve any informations inside my brain clearly, and expressed them out in a formed sentences faster. ie. English is my second language that I started to learn when I was in High School, but when it came to a speech test, I noticed that i could form sentences clearer and faster.... it also helped my maths a lot...

It's a great stuff.

[matthias7]

Wow.... I take mega-B vits regularly. Particularly B6 in ZMA as a night-time supplement.

I don't notice any effect from Pyritinol. Why?

What you guys are seeing is a dopamine effect. Thats what B6 does. Since I use it every day in high dosage I've a tolerance, all dopamine based stuff does this. Really I need to stop the night-time supplements and use pyritinol in the day.

However - if true - the effect will not last.

[neuropill]

I've been using this again recently and really enjoy the stimulant like and mental processing enhancement properties. My interest was in part due was to attenuate some benzo induced mental fatigue. When trying to read up on the research it appears to effect the benzo and GABA A receptors (https://ncbi.nlm.nih.../pubmed/2851848) but it does not state how exactly it does this in the abstract except that it reduces the period of time a agonist (or perhaps an antagonist) binds to the receptor.

I would like more thoughts on this and if this is ultimately causes up-regulation of the GABA-A and Benzo receptors.

[gizmobrain]

If anyone has any Pyritinol lying around that they'd like to get rid of, PM me. I've been interested to try it for awhile.

[renfr]

I'm quite interested in trying pyritinol. Many users claim it helps you to be motivated and it makes you quite productive.
I am wondering which mechanism allows this and I'm pretty sure it has something to do with dopaminergic pathways.
The sole study I could find talking about dopaminergic system changes with pyritinol administration is there : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2730616

Pyritinol prevented the learning deficit due to hypoxia and decreases the potassium stimulated DA release from striatal slices.

In other terms, pyritinol decreases dopamine release triggered by potassium. By a compensatory mechanism this could mean that dopamine receptors get to be upregulated hence the motivating effect.
I would also like to put that in perspective with sulbutiamine that is also known to trigger a compensatory mechanism with D1 receptors.
I wonder which one is the most effective in order to produce the effects of dopamine.

[dear mrclock]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15001508

im not able to get the full text on this, but from the title it seems like a serious side effect from pyritinol

[gizmobrain]

The link you posted has a link to the full text for free:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC381054/

Here is the summary:

' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC381054/']
Although pyritinol has been used in Europe for more than 20 years, only a few cases of drug induced hepatitis have been published.^2,5-7 Interestingly, the doctors who referred the patients to our unit did not consider pyritinol to be a likely cause of hepatitis, so it is possible that this non-dose dependent drug hepatotoxicity may have been substantially under-reported during these years.
These six cases fulfil the usual criteria for diagnosis of drug induced liver injury, namely a temporal relation and the exclusion of alternative causes. Moreover, when we used a semiquantitative diagnostic scale, the results showed high levels of probability for drug induced liver injury.⁸ In four patients, immunological investigation showed a marked drug specific in vitro lymphocyte proliferative response, and CD4+ T lymphocytes were identified as the predominant drug specific lymphocytes. What is more striking is that the degree of T lymphocyte reactivity to the drug is much higher than the one usually observed in drug hypersensitivity hepatitis.³ Noteworthy, in addition to its putative effect on the memory and intellectual concentration, pyritinol has been shown to have favourable effects on rheumatoid arthritis¹ similar to the ones described for penicillamine, which is also a drug with an active sulfhydryl group.² Interestingly, penicillamine is typically responsible for several adverse reactions of immunological nature, such as immune complex nephropathy, autoimmune-like skin disorders, leucopoenia, and thrombocytopoenia.²
Clinically, the most striking feature in these patients was the severe and prolonged nature of the cholestasis that required admission to hospital in four previously healthy young individuals. The seriousness of this adverse reaction contrasts with the relatively small clinical importance of the problem that led to its prescription. Therefore, the cases reported here justify a reassessment of the risk and benefit of pyritinol.

→ source (external link)

[neuropill]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15001508

im not able to get the full text on this, but from the title it seems like a serious side effect from pyritinol

It's an allergic reaction that occurs in a small % of users but it's not severe unless you continue taking it after you notice a reaction. Which makes it safer than a peanut but far less likely to cause a problem.

[renfr]

I tried pyritinol, something between 600-800mg dissolved in whiskey and found it very effective to motivate me and make me productive.
I can now focus on a single task without constantly switching and never ending my duties (I was never diagnosed with ADHD and I don't think I have it, I'm just naturally terribly lazy).
I hope this effect can continue long-term, I really need that one.

BTW, the taste is FOUL, UGH I really mean it, worse than piracetam, almost like Phenibut.

Edited by renfr, 12 October 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[renfr]

After trying out pyritinol during 3 days and then left it, I've been experiencing a withdrawal syndrome whcih includes :
- Insomnia (I can't sleep at all, benzos and antihistamines do work but with them my sleep is interrupted, I wake up 3h after then sleep again) it's been 3 days it's ongoing, I hope it resolves soon
- Tunnel vision, with pyritinol I experienced a great vision enhancement, after withdrawing my vision wasn't like before, it's tunnel like, my peripheral vision seems to be impaired
- Constant elevated heart rate at 90bpm (normal values range from 65-74bpm)

After extensive research, I guess I managed to understand the issue :
- Pyritinol is involved in cholinergic pathways, many studies say it does increase acetylcholine levels dramatically
- High acetylcholine is related with slow heart rate, high acetylcholine inhibits epinephrine and dopamine when low acetylcholine lets epinephrine fasten heart rate
- Low acetylcholine includes symptoms such as insomnia (this seems to happen to patient after an heart attack) but also symptoms such as tunnel vision
Therefore the problem seems to be in acetylcholine deficiency, my pyritinol dosage (600mg) increased acetylcholine a lot and downregulated receptors. Therefore there is a withdrawal symptom that cannot be ignored.

What I will be trying according to my research :
- Take a lot of soy lecithin then decrease amount over the week (I will check my heart rate and see what happens)
- If that doesn't work, I would take pyritinol again at lower doses in order to alleviate withdrawal
- If the two don't work, I shall use caffeine which is a muscarinic acetylcholine inhibitor and therefore increases acetylcholine receptors density, this might be a good solution (however piracetam didn't work)

I don't know if it's because of my own biochemistry, but I suggest those trying pyritinol to start with low dosage (200mg) and not go 600-800mg as I wrongfully did.
Taking it in the morning is important to avoid insomnia and it is important to not go cold turkey to not experience an acetylcholine deficiency.

Took soy lecithin one hour ago :
Before my HR was 90bpm (20h40), now it is 87BPM (21h40), not very significant therefore I cannot draw any conclusion.
In 30mins I will be taking half tbsp of acetylcholine and see how it goes
UPDATE : Just took a second dose
HR at 22h20 => 82-83bpm, results start to become significant and my theory seems to be true

Edited by renfr, 19 October 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[renfr]

A little update.
Before sleeping my HR went way much slower down to 75bpm which is fairly good after 2 tablespoons of soy lecithin.
I managed to sleep without any antihistamines, benzos or any sleeping pills, my sleep was slightly disturbed but I managed to sleep well.
In the morning the HR went up again to 90bpm, therefore I decided to go for the third solution which is caffeine.
I took 100mg of caffeine (only as I am very sensitive to caffeine) and in a matter of a few hours it worked like a charm, HR back to 75bpm and I don't have that "wide awake" feeling anymore.
I didn't take any soy lecithin today, I hope I will manage to sleep well this night.
Therefore my conclusions is that I recommend (at least to myself) to take a small dosage of caffeine along with pyritinol to avoid extreme downregulation of muscarinic receptors, however caffeine dosage should be limited as caffeine is a muscarinic ANTAGONIST therefore it can cancel out some of the benefits of pyritinol (such as increased memory, high motivation and high concentration).
Another option is to alternate pyritinol/caffeine, one day with pyritinol, another with caffeine in order to reset pyritinol tolerance.
If you experience the same symptoms as I did (insomnia, high HR, etc...) now you know what to do, it's linked to the cholinergic system.

[norepinephrine]

I'm a bit confused about the benefits of supplementing pyritinol vs. just taking something like a B-complex.

I get similar effects to what you guys are describing taking a sublingual, coenzymated B-complex, with the bonus that the stimulant-like focus comes on almost immediately.

From my understanding, supplementing a single B (whether the vanilla types or the more novel compounds like sulbutiamine and pyritinol) over time can produce unwanted side effects. From my own experience, taking B6 alone for ~6 months resulted in neuropathy and derealization at ~50-100g/day.

Could someone enlighten me on why these more exotic forms of B-vitamins are useful?

[renfr]

50g of B6 a day? Are you serious? This is not even a high dose, it's beyond overdose. Thank God that you're alive today.
Honestly I get no such effect with a B complex (with vitamins ranging from B1 to B12 including B6), B6 only increases my REM sleep and incidence of dreams, concerning motivation I don't really feel effects, maybe is it because I take normal doses (under 200mg), probably taking several grams would do the trick.
Pyritinol is better than B6 as as far as I know there is no such side effect near neuropathy that you can have with B6.
B vitamins are somewhat useful as they are cofactors to many reactions including neurotransmitter balance, increase and health, immune system boost, cell health, cognitive health. Just don't overdo them, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

I suggest concerning fat soluble B vitamins not to take them everyday and space out supplementation.
B6 has an half life of 2 weeks, meaning that it accumulates fastly.
People supplementing high dose B6 (over 200mg) a day can get damage as early as 2 years later due to accumulation, therefore it is important to control your intake.
B6 induced neuropathy is likely to be permanent so caution is advised.

Edited by renfr, 21 October 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[norepinephrine]

Sorry, 50-100g was a typo. I meant 50-100mg/day.

[dear mrclock]

what are you talking about b6 has half life of 2 weeks ? its a water soluble b vitamin. you can take it regularly but not in high doses. didnt think it can stay within your system for so long like a fat soluble.

[renfr]

what are you talking about b6 has half life of 2 weeks ? its a water soluble b vitamin. you can take it regularly but not in high doses. didnt think it can stay within your system for so long like a fat soluble.

Indeed, my mistake. B vitamins are all water soluble however according to what I read on the web, the 2 weeks half life seems to be widely accepted. This is conforming with the fact that chronic B6 intake can lead to neuropathy, which may be irreversible and when reversible takes several weeks or months to return to normal function.
If correctly taken, B6 can be extremely beneficial, first it is a GABA cofactor and it is also a great vitamin to enhance REM sleep.
REM sleep means incidence of dreams but also enhancement of procedural memory.
A minor but insignificant side effect is that increase of REM sleep can make you wake up 2 or 3 times during the night.
The scariest side effect to me is that dreams are usually nightmares to me, it's as if I took melatonin.
I hate having nightmares and then wake up in survival mode with a huge heart rate.
I still don't know exactly why nightmares occur, apparently it can be caused to a bad sleeping position which causes the brain to force us to wake up in an extreme freakout.

Edited by renfr, 22 October 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[dear mrclock]

i still dont understand how come a water soluble vitamin accumilates in the body for up to 2 weeks. but ok, whatever you say

[protoject]

I think pyritinol is a gaba antagonist if I'm not mistaken, which would explain its nootropic effect, however I wonder if this property would make it a good candidate for GABA receptor upregulation.

[xsiv1]

^^ Very good question. I've found nothing to suggest that it's effect upregulates the Gaba receptors but it sounds entirely plausible.

[KoolK3n]

Any of you guys still taking it?

[FocusPocus]

[bump] ^^

[8bitmore]

[bump] ^^

Okay then: I have been taking Encephabol (oral in liquid form) in 200-500mg doses (100mg per 5ml) and literally have noticed nothing outstanding whatsoever about it - it may be that the effects carry thorugh faster for some than others, or that it only has appreciative effects when there's a "ill to cure" so to speak. Also, it may be that some forms are stronger than others (copy pasting my own post from other pyritinol thread here):

"Lets try and establish what exactly the chemical formula/name is for functional Pyritinol, the only chemical formula that I have seen repeated C₁₆H₂₀N₂O₄S₂ which is equivalent to pyridoxine disulfide. It is written on all over the net (Wikipedia being chief offender) that Encephabol is equivalent to pyridoxine disulfide, only this is false, Encephabol contains C₁₆H₂₂Cl₂N₂O₄S₂ which is equivalent to Pyrithioxine hydrochloride (also written as Pyritinol HCI or Pyritinol hydrochloride). As for the difference in potency, well, most of the studies done are on Pyritinol HCI/Encephabol as far as I can via pubmed ("Pyritinol hydrochloride" yields 255 results whereas "Pyritinol disulfide" yields 10 results - using different spelling may well change outcome, I tried a few and not much difference noted).

Pyritinol HCI has zero noticeable effect for me so I might well try the Pyritinol disulfide edition next time around - would be nice if we could establish once and for all what type of Pyritinol is active (unfortunately it might also vary with differing capacity for metabolizing, I would love to hear from others that have tried the Merck brand of Encephabol to see whether they have had an effect or not!?)"

[FocusPocus]

Would taking pyritinol with Ritalin or Caffeine be contra indicated for some reason?