272 replies to this topic

[lightowl]

just need a few more bruce clones to clean it up into a nice report

Heh... Bruce, have you read The Collapsium by Wil McCarthy. They are really taking advantage of their "fax" machines on that point

[Bruce Klein]

heh. lightowl..

We have a green light for Transvision 2004 if we wish:

George,

ImmInst is looking to create a film around the book and perhaps
interview a few TV 04 Toronto attendees:
http://www.imminst.org/film.php
(quiet for now)

Would you think it ok for two people (Michael Anissimov and Natty
Coleman) to have a camera at TV 04?


Hi BJ -- that should be no problem. All I ask is that
1) you don't indiscrminately film people
2) you have release forms ready for int'vws and other shooting
situations

Best,
George

[spifflink]

howdy follks, sorry i havent posted. anyway, yes reading on the posts, i was planning already to go dvd on this. it will presevre the quality and allow for cheaper duplication. editing shouldnt be a problem either. yes it does involve long hours sitting, but it is something i happen to enjoy. here is an idea that would take this film to another level. i want to broaden the scop of the film a bit to go a little more in depth into other potential applications of technologies currently in debate by many(stem cell research and nanotechnology). we should present the facts behind the fallacies and rumors politicians come up with to oppose it in congress and provide case studies of people with diseases who could benefit, add an emotional punch. then i think we could go to the christopher reeve foundation or someone like them, who is actively interested in furthering legislation in support of medical technologies such as stem cell research and nanotech. they could sponsor(if not i could most likley secure sponsorship from other people in my area) the pressing of the dvd(there is a HUGE facility here that does an awesome job, stuff for big clients you would all recognize). i want to send a press package to every freaking legislator in the US, telling them what is up and what they have the chance to do. telling them that if the laws change there is potential for a medical revolution that will end the suffering of many and eventually lead to the cure of aging.

does this sound good? it is a chance for this project to do some major good for the world.

[bacopa]

that sounds like a good idea presenting the facts behind stem cell research and focusing on how politicians often sidestep the real potential importance of these technologies as well. Adding an emotional punch is a great idea as well as going to the Chrisopher Reeve foundation a good example of the types of people who would be actively involved in furthering postiive legislation. IT might also be a good idea as we have discussed of interviewing people involved in the field, particularly overlapping with transhumanist studies. Interviewing people like Natasha and Max Moore could help give a more creative outlook on this documentary.

[Bruce Klein]

Excellent ideas, Natty.

Mike West http://imminst.org/f...&f=13&t=2014&s=
a leading proponent and researcher into stem cells is a contributer to the ImmInst book. He may make a good first interview.

Looking to geography, it may be feasible to get one or maybe two interviews per day. Perhaps something like:

Sat July 31 & Sun Aug 1
Mike West - Worcester, MA
Marvin Minsky - Cambridge, MA
Ray Kurzweil - Wellesley Hills, MA

Sat Aug 7 and Sun Aug 8
Transvision Toronto - a number of interviewees in one place
Nick Bostom
Jose Cordeiro
James Hughes
Mike Treder
Natasha Vita-More
Aubrey de Grey
Peter Passaro

Sat Aug 14 - Sun Aug 15
James Halperin - Dallas, TX
Rob Freitas - Richardson, TX
Max More - Houston TX

----

Natty, in light of your wish to focus on stem cell and more biology, with a target audience in mind of politicians, it may be better to tone down the physical immortality focus in favor of a more humanitarian aim.. such as you suggest with Christopher Reeve. But there still may be room to include the overarching goal of physical immortality by such interviewees as James Halperin and Marvin Minsky.

Can you give us another feel for how you envision the final product considering what we know so far? For instance, will we just let the interviewees talk or should we consider a faceless narrator as well?

[bacopa]

i want to send a press package to every freaking legislator in the US, telling them what is up and what they have the chance to do. telling them that if the laws change there is potential for a medical revolution that will end the suffering of many and eventually lead to the cure of aging.

This is an excellent idea, we should definitely focus on targeting people in the governement who could positively effect the out come of these burgeoning fields. Focusing on people who have the chance to make a difference in problems that need addressing ASAP is a very pro-active and practical way of going about this documentary, the physical immortality stuff as BJ said, can always be put in at the end of the documentary as a 'things to come' kind of deal. So we focus on practical 'things that are happening now' followed by more future shock type levels of technology even if immortality shouldn't be that 'shocking.' We could also interview authors of this book and find out their particular take on the poltiics of stem cell research, cloning, and ageing in general. I think a great person to interview would be Aubrey de Grey as he is one of the foremost experts in bio-gerentology and someone who has a plan to implement radical life extension, this is the kind of non nonsense 'truth' that I think this documentary could sell to the public. Show them that radical life extension is no longer a pipe dream.

[bacopa]

Natty I might have another person who could help out in the technical end of things, I was wandering if you think we might need a bigger crew.

[randolfe]

I have just started catching up on things here. Hoping not to pop anyone's bubble or to step on anyone's toes, I'll venture a few quick thoughts.

The suggested list of interviewees is the same small coterie of advocates that have dominated this field. We need to add more "new faces" like BJK.

Working with a camera can be very daunting. You better have someone who knows that they have to have all bases covered. If you shoot in a large newspaper store, you need the storeowner's or manager's permission as well as the person you are filming.

Editing is going to be necessary and NO ONE is going to be happy with his or her treatment. What film editors think is important and what subjects of documentaries think is important are quite different.

If you want massive coverage, I'd suggest trying to get distributed via Satellite TV. Film festivals and standard commercial channels will not reach nearly as far since you really want "to reach the world".

The emotional aspect is vital. Has anyone seen the footage of Jennifer Estes (sp?) whose sister's started a foundation to found research into ALS. We need a mass of suffering desperate people who tug at your heart strings.

Ideas of reaching politicians are naive. You have to go the route of the stem cell advocates. The politicians started seeing the light on this issue after all those kids with Juvenile Onset Diabetes (and their parents) descended on their offices demanding research be allowed to go forward.

I have been meaning to advocate a "social sciences" section to this site. It's absence is glaring--the psychological hurdles, the sociological hurdles, even the political science obstacles to advancing our cause are at the heart of our progress.

Before you present "uploading yourself" here and then "downloading yourself" there (or later), you better figure out how to make that idea comfortable and appealing to those who are not so well informed. That is a job for the social sciences. Yes, we must master being propagandists for the things we believe in.

[spifflink]

I know exactly what you mean, I have already considered these aspects. While true that no subject will be happy with the final cut, the thing to do is talk with the subject about what they want to see on the film, and help them understand that not everything will be on screen. Reaching politicians IS harder than I made it sound, but not impossible, I am in active debates with about 5 or 6 senators and representatives in CA and UT, and I maintain active correspondence with them. It is a matter of getting them to pay attention. We need a wide base of people to step up and back this school of thought. Did you see CNN today? Nancy Reagan held a big press conference and Michael J Fox was there to speak, and they called on the government to open up stem cell research. We need to leverage the support of celebrity. The Christopher Reeve Foundation isn't even supported by Reeves anymore. Robin Williams funds it, Reeves supposedly ran out of money, and they are best friends, so yeah. The war of ideals is on, and the scale is tipping in our direction, and it is up to us to push it all the way.

[spifflink]

oh, and i am pretty well acquainted with shooting in public/open situations, so i think we have that base covered

[bacopa]

If you want massive coverage, I'd suggest trying to get distributed via Satellite TV. Film festivals and standard commercial channels will not reach nearly as far since you really want "to reach the world".

The emotional aspect is vital. Has anyone seen the footage of Jennifer Estes (sp?) whose sister's started a foundation to found research into ALS. We need a mass of suffering desperate people who tug at your heart strings.

great points Randolphe and Spifflink also strong points regarding celebritydom certainly appealing to famous names will make the masses start paying better attention.

I am in active debates with about 5 or 6 senators and representatives in CA and UT, and I maintain active correspondence with them. It is a matter of getting them to pay attention.

Spifflink, what sort of debates? on stem cell research via email format? That sounds like another good idea maybe I should be doing that get these people to realize the importance of these beneficial therapies.

The war of ideals is on, and the scale is tipping in our direction, and it is up to us to push it all the way

yes we must push as hard as we possibly can getting our hands dirty if need be.

I have been meaning to advocate a "social sciences" section to this site. It's absence is glaring--the psychological hurdles, the sociological hurdles, even the political science obstacles to advancing our cause are at the heart of our progress.

Before you present "uploading yourself" here and then "downloading yourself" there (or later), you better figure out how to make that idea comfortable and appealing to those who are not so well informed. That is a job for the social sciences. Yes, we must master being propagandists for the things we believe in.

great points and duly noted, be must EDUCATE the, pardon the expression, the VASTLY ignorant masses on the harsh harsh realities of death and why something like uploading is actually more rational and ultimately beneficial than not.

[Bruce Klein]

Dr. Mike West is open to helping us with the film project.

Bruce,

I am happy to help you any way I can.  Whatever you need me to do just let me know.

- Mike

Also, thus far, Jim Halperin, Max More, Natasha Vita-More, Mike West and James Hughes have given indications of wishing to help with the film.

[bacopa]

great! let me know if I can help in this process, please. For instance I have communicated with Aubrey de Grey I was wandering if I should ask him to help out?

[Bruce Klein]

Aubrey will be at TransVision in Toronto... and I've just sent a notice to him about the film.. will let you know.. I'll keep in mind how you may help going forward... but I know we'll need you at TransVision.

[bacopa]

ok I'm just trying to ensure that this thing goes smoothly too obviously I don't want to help in areas that are already accounted for, I talked with Natty a bit and he told me the equipment he is planning to use I have some eperience with final cut perhaps I can be instrumental there when he is busy with another task.

[Mind]

Randolph: The suggested list of interviewees is the same small coterie of advocates that have dominated this field. We need to add more "new faces" like BJK.

Good point Randolph. I concur.

[Bruce Klein]

I will be traveling to Toronto for Transvision 04 Aug 7-8 to help Michael Anissimov, Natty Coleman, and Devon Fowler with filming.

[brokenportal]

So who are the experts on different subjects? Can anybody make a list of them to contact?

My brother is getting into college for film and I have always encouraged him in that direction for this very reason. So far him and I have begun dabbling with flash animator, which isnt a bad idea. A bunch of cartoon clips would be much better than nothing. After all, teenagers are less likely to have their ways set to much in stone yet.

Is there a good place in Imminst to post short commercial clip and or cartoon types of ideas?

[Mind]

Broken Portal, you can just start a forum here in the "Action & Reaching Out" section for now. I am sure everyone would be excited to see any "shorts" you produce.

[lightowl]

I have an idea for the Book and Film combo project. It would be nice if we could get the book recorded on an audio CD to extend the combo. Book+Film+AudioBook. Does anyone know anyone with a nice authoritative voice? I think we also need someone for the speaker in the film project. What do you think? I would definitely buy such an AudioBook. If such an Audio CD was made, it could be used to promote the longevity meme through radio shows and maybe someday in schools, which would be excellent.

Edited by lightowl, 08 July 2004 - 04:50 PM.

[Bruce Klein]

Like the idea, lightowl. I'll keep this in mind as I travel and work on the ImmInst Film Project.

Here is an Aug 18 - 2004, Film Project Update:

I will now take on the role as Film Director and Producer for the ImmInst Film Project. As Natty and Michael were unable to travel to Toronto, there are extra funds to purchase film equipment. I've recently purchased a Panasonic AG-DVX100A:

for 1,748.99 and accessories for 773.38. I will now trade in my SUV for a compact better gas millage car in order to travel more economically over the next few months while filming.

I'm now practicing with Adobe Premiere 1.5 Film Studio software and expect the Film Equipment to arrive by mail soon.

If any ImmInst members wish to be included in the film and/or has floor space for me to sleep in route, I'd be grateful. More about travel plans found at the film site: http://www.imminst.org/film

Thanks,
Bruce

[cryofan]

Broadband should become more and more common over the next couple of years; as wireless broadband comes online, it should force cable and telco carriers to lower their prices. So, probably in 5 years, most of the Americans households will be on broadband.

When this happens, the internet will become the newly dominant multimedia entertainment distribution system. See for example this quote from Steven Spielberg when interviewing with reporter Katie Couric:
>>>>
Steven Spielberg has forecast that the Internet will eventually become the primary source for entertainment. Appearing on NBC's Today show on Thursday, Spielberg told cohost Katie Couric: "I think that the Internet is going to effect the most profound change on the entertainment industries combined. And we're all gonna be tuning into the most popular Internet show in the world, which will be coming from some place in Des Moines." When Couric remarked, "Great, I'm gonna lose my job," Spielberg interjected, "We're all gonna lose our jobs. We're all gonna be on the Internet trying to find an audience."
>>>>>>>>

So, when this happens, and people getting their tv and movies over the Net, the distribution system for audiovisual entertainment becomes low-barrier-to-entry for the first time ever. That will be very disruptive, especially when you throw peer to peer networks into the mix. I also can see 5 years into the future and see a much more accessible and egalitarian distribution network.

Five years from now, if you want to make your own movie, documentary, etc, just trot down to the store, or ebay, and buy yourself a digital camera ($300--$3000 depending on quality, and the prices just keep going down), and get yourself some $500 video editing software/effects software (or get it free from GNU, or from the p2p networks), and buy some lights, and write a script and make your self a movie/documentary.

When you are done, throw it on the p2p networks, and if it is any good, in a few years, thousands or even millions will have seen it. And the neat thing is that it never dies. Any quality video entertainment can be immortal on the p2p networks.

And what a powerful tool to propagate memes! Imagine a great script incorporating cryonics/immortalism, produced and created by dedicated cryonicists all over the world, collaborating over the internet. We could work on it for years, and then when the wireless broadband revolution is ripe, we upload it on the p2p network. It would live forever there, spreading immortlist ideas likes a virus....traveling from computer to computer....

Edited by cryofan, 27 August 2004 - 04:13 PM.

[cryofan]

P.S. I also am working a small demo film using Adobe Premiere 6.0

I took the footage using a cheapo digital camera (it takes stills and video).

Looks pretty bad, but it good practice.

[Bruce Klein]

And what a powerful tool to propagate memes! Imagine a great script incorporating cryonics/immortalism, produced and created by dedicated cryonicists all over the world, collaborating over the internet. We could work on it for years, and then when the wireless broadband revolution is ripe, we upload it on the p2p network. It would live forever there, spreading immortlist ideas likes a virus....traveling from computer to computer....

Yes, this is the goal. I'm learning Adobe Premier also.

[cryofan]

Regarding the script for an immortalist/transhumanist/cryonicist movie, I think the best approach is a science fiction movie that allows the viewer to see our society, our planet, from a different perspective, the perspective of someone living in the future, the same kind of future in which we cryonicists hope to be revived.

For example, the script might use some sort of commonly used science fiction device, such as time travel, window/portal to the future, where conflicts involving the protagonists might allow expository characters/scenes which contrast "rational" attitudes toward death, versus irrational, "deathist" attitudes. For example, our protagonist might be chased into the future by some antagonist, where expository characters might explain that humans in the year 2004 irrationally viewed death as natural, and found radical life extension techniques such as cryonics, cloning, stem cell research, body transplants, etc, "yucky", etc. The contrast could be made between an immortalist future where people think and reason as we cryonicists do right now, and the deathist society of today.

In the movie, exposition might be implemented using "archival material from the distant past," such as interviews of cryonicists from the year 2004.

Of course, this approach would have to be leavened with typical dramatic conflicts, character development, plot, etc. Otherwise it could be a bit heavyhanded.

As for Mr Ettinger's suggestion regarding what is of the most import, I have to respectfully disagree in part. Of couse, it should be of paramount importance that each of us make cryonics arrangments. I agree; that is paramount. I have made my own cryonics arrangements, and in five years, the accumulated equity will make the payments on my policy.

But I want more. And talking to acquaintances is not nearly as effective as a movie might be, if the movie is halfway decent. Now, I think it may be pretty hard to make a movie good enough to make it into the distribution system we have right now. But as I pointed out in another post (at the end of this thread, I believe), many informed people think that wireless broadband will precipitate a much more egalitarian video entertainment distribution system.

But as far as watching free video entertainment goes, people watch old black-n-white movies with crappy rabbit-ears reception all the time. If the movie is decent, and nothing else is on....

As I said, in a couple of years, enough of an audience will exist on broadband for our proposed movie to be worthwhile. We could distribute such a movie virtually free on p2p networks. And human culture is based on ideas passed through many avenues--including movies, teevee sitcoms, etc. Like force vectors, these ideas slowly move society in one direction or another. We need to add our force vector to the pile.

How many people can we reach by talking to our family and acquaintances collectively? A few thousand? Once most Americans and Europeans have new computers and are on broadband, decent movies uploaded to the p2p networks can live forever, passing immortalist ideas from computer to computer, year after year.

Better to reach hundreds of thousands or even millions via a movie. And what a superb mechanism for propagating memes! Once you suspend disbelief and enter the ingratiating world of a movie, the viewer is far more susceptible and receptive
to the ideas of the filmmaker.

[cryofan]

As an example of a movie that was used by the director to carry a meme message, see _They_Live_ by John Carpenter.

Here is the imdb link:
http://imdb.com/titl...096256/combined

Check the link for user comments....

They Live was a science fiction movie from about 20 years ago that used an aliens-disguised-as-humans to carry a leftist-political anti-capitalist meme. It starred Rowdy Roddy Piper. John Carpenter, director, scriptwriter is/was one of Hollywood's leading directors, albeit one who concentrated on horror and SF movies.

It appears on the surface to be a low budget scifi flick, but I am sure it did its part to undermine supply-side neoliberalism/Reaganism.

It may be the most subversive mainstream Hollywood movie ever.
An immortalist movie could be made along similar lines, with similar goals.

A more recent example of such a "message movie" will be coming out in about one month--John Sayles' _Silver_City_. It is a movie about a "fictional" politician and political campaign, "coincidentally" bearing a great deal of resemblance to George Bush and his 2000 campaign.

[Bruce Klein]

Great ideas, cryofa. Movies may be an eventual avenue for ImmInst, but for now, documentaries, because they can be produced on a tighter budget, seem to be the most logical use of our limited resources.

[lightowl]

I totally agree with the notion that internet distribution is perfect for nearly free and fast distribution. When the film is ready I can offer some webspace and bandwidth for quick distribution via a link on the ImmInst just as a starter. As for the p2p networks, it is my experience that the movies and films available currently is of such a poor quality that they are hardly worth watching. The problem is that p2p file sharing is often only used on single files and bandwidth is still limited on the multiple hosts. The most common distribution method of large files is FTP and multiple rar/zip files. The reason is reliability of host and content.

Anyway, my point is. I think the best way to distribute on the web is by linking to a download host from websites that have audience that might have an interest or just generally curious audiences. To find a file on p2p you have to actively search for it, so people has to know what it is named and that it actually exists in the first place. Also, I think the p2p availability will come eventually if the film is popular, since the people who download from the site(s) are free to distribute. ( It may be a good idea to make a free for distribution announcement in the film for clarity of copy rights )

SO, when the film is being distributed and watched, would it not be fun to have an idea of how many people have seen it. Just an idea. In the end of the film, a text could state that "We would like to know what you thought of this film. If you would like to participate, please visit www.blablabla.xx. If you don't have an opinion just let us know that you have seen the film". If some good logging is made of such a "poll" it could be used to identify which distribution channels are the most effective. On that same page could be an explanation on how to distribute and a link to a direct download.

Example of poll.

0. Did you se it ?
a. Yes.
b. What the **** are you talking about.

1. Where did you get the film ?
a. Downloaded from website (FTP)
b. Got it from a friend.
c. Found it on P2P
d. Watched it on a TV-Channel.
e... etc

2. What did you think of it ?
a. Fantastic.
b. Great.
c. Interesting.
d. Boring.
e. Stupid.
f. Amusing.
g... etc

3. Do you want to see more ?
a. Yes please.
b. No, not really.
c. If I have to.
d... etc

4. Did you / or do you plan on distributing it ?
a. Did distribute.
b. Plan on distributing.
c. Distribute ?
d. Dont want to.
e. Dont know how.
f... etc

Heh, I think you got the general idea by now.

[Bruce Klein]

Another good idea. Thanks!

[lightowl]

Oh, just another note. The poll weblink has to be as simple as possible for the TV-Channel viewers to remember. Also, that same poll page could have polls to the book and future films and links to ImmInst and other LE/Transhuman orgs.