336 replies to this topic

[PhDStudent]

copper at 77 and zinc at 106 is pretty good, looks like the treatment has worked (is working). I realize there is a certain level of variation with dfferent labs but I think for minerals it is fairly standard. My lab (Quest Diagnostics) uses normal ranges clearly not as good as your lab. QD: copper 80-180, Zn 60-130. From my research there is absolutly nothing wrong about having a Zn between 130 and 140, in fact i think it'll be my target. Copper in the 70s I'm not sure, it does look low to me. Maybe its ok. But copper is still important, for arteries, dopamine, etc.

I wonder if nearly all labs use the mean ± 2 std deviations as their normal range.

Still we should give you a mission. Since you have direct access to the Pfeiffer Center, it would be easy for you to say.. For a guy in his 20-30s who want to perform at everything, have a good mental sharpness, good hormonal production, etc what numbers would you want to see optimally? For zinc, copper, magnesium, calcium. maybe selenium, manganese. Would they prefer test RBC concentrations or plasma?

im ordering beginner's nootropic right tomorrow, as u can see in the thread i started a few hours ago to ask some questions http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=39787 the point is i want to try all the vitamins and relevant amino acids first. try to get the right dosage with them. see where that gets me. then maybe at some point try a racetam or something else. but unlike u im still a medication virgin (well except antibiotics a few times)

[nito]

http://www.informati...il-supplements/

How come Lithium is not mentioned?

[czGLoRy]

Don't nootropics only last 4.5 hours or less? Why take them all in one dose rather than spread put?

[Solarclimax]

I was browsing google and saw this post. What are peoples opinions on the claims ?

Lion's Mane ~500mg in the morning ~500mg at bedtime to get an even distribution of constant NGF release
400mg Pyritinol in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
5g fish oil in the morning
150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk
750mg aniracetam in the morning with whole milk
1g bacopa in the morning
4g piracetam in the morning

Most of these are pharmaceutical synthetics and have side effects that I would not risk. For example Pyritinol can cause pancreatitis, skin rashes and digestive disturbances. Aniracetam and Piracetam can cause anxiety, which you mentioned you are trying to address.

I also disagree with their recommendation of 5g of fish oil daily. That is a lot of vitamin A, which build up in the liver and can lead to liver damage. High levels of vitamin A have also been linked to bone deterioration. The primary active components in fish oil for brain function are EPA and DHA, which can be purchased as an isolate to get around the risk of vitamin A toxicity.

Most of these compounds are also very pricey. I don't know where they get the $100 a month number. Most of the products average $40 per bottle.

For brain function I can think of many supplements I prefer.

Periwinkle is my favorite. Periwinkle is a nervine and increases blood flow to the brain better than any herb out there. Periwinkle also elevates brain ATP by increasing oxygen and glucose utilization by the brain.

Lecithin granules provide phosphatidycholine, phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylethanolamine.

Sage leaf also calms the nerves and helps prevent acetylcholine breakdown.:

http://curezone.com/...asp?i=1524373#i

http://curezone.com/...asp?i=1524376#i

Rosemary and juniper berry are also good for strengthening the nervous system, including the brain.

Tyrosine can be used to elevate dopamine to help with focus.

I do like bacopa and gotu kola to increase brain circulation and function as well.

And don't forget antioxidants like turmeric to protect the brain cells.


also, what would you reccomend for speaking-anxiety? I start school again soon and speech class is my biggest fear, above death. Is there any herbs I can take to help with the extreme nervousness? (by nervousness, I mean I sweat terribly, can't think at all except about screwing up, and sometimes my body just freezes up and I feel like I'm dying)

The periwinkle and sage I mentioned can help by calming the nerves. The amino acid glycine is also calming and readily absorbed. Also get more B vitamins in your diet, especially B6. This will help strengthen the nervous system and the B6 aids in the formation of GABA, which is also calming.

Taken from this site. http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1550598

[PhDStudent]

eating has been linked to obesity, driving has been linked to increased risks of sudden death. vitamin A will kill you. Inuits eat 30 000IU/ day on average, but the signing part of their rituals cancel the toxicity. I think sage and rosemary are only good at shrinking one's testicules

[NDM]

I thought vit A is high in fish LIVER oil not in fish oil that is purified for high concentrations of EPA/DHA.

[Solarclimax]

eating has been linked to obesity, driving has been linked to increased risks of sudden death. vitamin A will kill you. Inuits eat 30 000IU/ day on average, but the signing part of their rituals cancel the toxicity. I think sage and rosemary are only good at shrinking one's testicules

Good reply, hehe.

The guy who's post i copied, claims he has made a home made atom smasher, and has been reading up on herbs ect for a few decades.

Edited by Solarclimax, 31 March 2010 - 03:18 PM.

[chrono]

Good thread, bmud! Great work describing your experience, in a way that makes sense to the uninitiated. I agree completely about the potential of currently available nootropics.

However, I think the implication that these particular substances will work for everyone, because of their mechanisms and the fact that they worked for bmud, might be misleading. Reading the first two posts, several supplements are discounted because of subjective ineffectiveness, which work quite well for myself or others.

I just had a conversation with someone who referred to this as a "universal nootropic stack." I think it's important for people just getting into this to realize that everyone reacts differently, not only to piracetam, but to almost any substance. My opinion is that starting a large number of supplements at once because they work for someone else isn't the best method.

Rather, start one substance at a time, give yourself a week or so to get used to it and see how it affects you, and either do the same for the next one, or add one at a time and see how they interact. Review the range of possible reactions, know what expect for effects, side effects, and factors which may influence efficacy. This way, you're able to say with more certainty if you reap the expected benefits, and are better able to tweak dosages and timing. Starting two or three things at once which should be amazing is a mistake I've made several times; in the long run, it causes more uncertainty than indulging my impatience was worth.

At this point in the game, there is no substitute for research, both scientific and anecdotal, and considered experimentation in individual efficacy.

I don't cycle my sulbutiamine. I don't understand how you can develop a tolerance to a vitamin.

I haven't taken sulbutiamine yet, but from anecdotal reports it seems that almost everyone notices tolerance. From the wikipedia:

Its metabolism in the brain leads to an increase in the levels of thiamine and thiamine phosphate esters.[1][19] While the exact mechanism of action of sulbutiamine is unknown, it is thought to occur through the upregulation of the reticular activating system, which is the center of arousal and motivation in the brain.[4] The administration of sulbutiamine potentiates cholinergic activity in the hippocampus.[14] It also potentiates glutamatergic activity in the prefrontal cortex through a reduction in the density of kainate glutamate receptors, which may occur in response to a modulation of intrasynaptic glutamate.[20] The facilitation of central glutamatergic transmission is a likely explanation for the ability of sulbutiamine to improve memory.[21][22][23][24] In addition to its action on cholinergic and glutamatergic transmission, the administration of sulbutiamine reduces the release of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, which increases the density of D1 dopamine receptors through a compensatory mechanism.[20] The modulation of dopaminergic transmission may also contribute to the ability of sulbutiamine to improve memory.

This drug exerts an effect on many neurotransmitters. I couldn't find any papers which mention tolerance either way, but it seems like there are several mechanisms here the brain could potentially get used to. I think equating this drug to thiamine just because it's a chemical derivative, and basing assumptions about its pharmacokinetics on that, is probably a mistake.

Edited by chrono, 08 April 2010 - 12:40 AM.

[SheerGold]

Can you post what dosage(s) you took of each, and at what time(s) of day ?

Lion's Mane ~500mg in the morning ~500mg at bedtime to get an even distribution of constant NGF release
400mg Pyritinol in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
5g fish oil in the morning
150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk
750mg aniracetam in the morning with whole milk
1g bacopa in the morning
4g piracetam in the morning

Excellent thread, bmud.
Thank you for so much useful information.

Please advise the brand name of the the "500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS".

I merely ask as I'd like to find out some more on that item.

Thanks

[Solarclimax]

Can you post what dosage(s) you took of each, and at what time(s) of day ?

Lion's Mane ~500mg in the morning ~500mg at bedtime to get an even distribution of constant NGF release
400mg Pyritinol in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
5g fish oil in the morning
150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk
750mg aniracetam in the morning with whole milk
1g bacopa in the morning
4g piracetam in the morning

Excellent thread, bmud.
Thank you for so much useful information.

Please advise the brand name of the the "500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS".

I merely ask as I'd like to find out some more on that item.

Thanks

http://www.iherb.com...gels/19390?at=0

Edited by Solarclimax, 09 April 2010 - 11:08 PM.

[polybi]

Can you post what dosage(s) you took of each, and at what time(s) of day ?

Lion's Mane ~500mg in the morning ~500mg at bedtime to get an even distribution of constant NGF release
400mg Pyritinol in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
5g fish oil in the morning
150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk
750mg aniracetam in the morning with whole milk
1g bacopa in the morning
4g piracetam in the morning

Excellent thread, bmud.
Thank you for so much useful information.

Please advise the brand name of the the "500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS".

I merely ask as I'd like to find out some more on that item.

Thanks

http://www.iherb.com...gels/19390?at=0

hey bmud where did you get the sulbutiamine from? cheers

[Benny Profane]

I'm about to start experimenting with some of the nootropic's mentioned here, and I was hoping to get some advice. I plan on starting with "one substance" (actually two: piracetam and CDPcholine), and phasing new substances in once a week (perhaps fortnightly, or monthly would be better?). However, I'm also thinking that I should be able to simultaneously start with a few other things that seem like they shouldn't interfere with my assessment of the efficacy of the different things I will be testing. So, for instance, I'm planning on starting with DHA, B12, maybe creatine (I'm a vegetarian), and multivitamin from the get-go, as I doubt these will hinder assessment or other substances. I'm less certain about Lion's Mane, but it seems like the NGF effect shouldn't influence my judgment of the effects of anything else (unless I attribute any positive effects of Lion's Mane with something else... but I don't know how likely that is). Finally, bacopa... I'm actually leaning towards phasing this in, as the short-term effects seem like they could make assessment of simultaneously introduced substances more difficult; on the other hand, part of me feels like maybe I should start it immediately, on account of the delayed onset of certain effects reported in the literature.

So I am thinking I will start with:
Piracetam
Citocoline (CDP-choline)
DHA
Lion's Mane
(maybe) Bacopa (any thoughts on this?)

Then phase in one each of the following, weekly:
Picamilon
Phosphatidyl Serine
Sulbutiamine
Aniracetam

Does anyone have any advice about starting up with this stack? I'd like to phase in the substances that are most likely to have positive effects early on, in the hopes of establishing a reliable base stack. So, any advice about a good order to introduce the substances in the second group? I'm a relative nootropic neophyte (I've never taken any, but I've been researching them for a while); I searched the forums as best as I could, but I apologize if my questions have been answered elsewhere.

[kassem23]

Good thread, bmud! Great work describing your experience, in a way that makes sense to the uninitiated. I agree completely about the potential of currently available nootropics.

However, I think the implication that these particular substances will work for everyone, because of their mechanisms and the fact that they worked for bmud, might be misleading. Reading the first two posts, several supplements are discounted because of subjective ineffectiveness, which work quite well for myself or others.

I just had a conversation with someone who referred to this as a "universal nootropic stack." I think it's important for people just getting into this to realize that everyone reacts differently, not only to piracetam, but to almost any substance. My opinion is that starting a large number of supplements at once because they work for someone else isn't the best method.

Rather, start one substance at a time, give yourself a week or so to get used to it and see how it affects you, and either do the same for the next one, or add one at a time and see how they interact. Review the range of possible reactions, know what expect for effects, side effects, and factors which may influence efficacy. This way, you're able to say with more certainty if you reap the expected benefits, and are better able to tweak dosages and timing. Starting two or three things at once which should be amazing is a mistake I've made several times; in the long run, it causes more uncertainty than indulging my impatience was worth.

At this point in the game, there is no substitute for research, both scientific and anecdotal, and considered experimentation in individual efficacy.

I don't cycle my sulbutiamine. I don't understand how you can develop a tolerance to a vitamin.

I haven't taken sulbutiamine yet, but from anecdotal reports it seems that almost everyone notices tolerance. From the wikipedia:

Its metabolism in the brain leads to an increase in the levels of thiamine and thiamine phosphate esters.[1][19] While the exact mechanism of action of sulbutiamine is unknown, it is thought to occur through the upregulation of the reticular activating system, which is the center of arousal and motivation in the brain.[4] The administration of sulbutiamine potentiates cholinergic activity in the hippocampus.[14] It also potentiates glutamatergic activity in the prefrontal cortex through a reduction in the density of kainate glutamate receptors, which may occur in response to a modulation of intrasynaptic glutamate.[20] The facilitation of central glutamatergic transmission is a likely explanation for the ability of sulbutiamine to improve memory.[21][22][23][24] In addition to its action on cholinergic and glutamatergic transmission, the administration of sulbutiamine reduces the release of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, which increases the density of D1 dopamine receptors through a compensatory mechanism.[20] The modulation of dopaminergic transmission may also contribute to the ability of sulbutiamine to improve memory.

This drug exerts an effect on many neurotransmitters. I couldn't find any papers which mention tolerance either way, but it seems like there are several mechanisms here the brain could potentially get used to. I think equating this drug to thiamine just because it's a chemical derivative, and basing assumptions about its pharmacokinetics on that, is probably a mistake.

Would snorting the drug give a better effect? It doesn't seem to do much to me when I take it with milk, (1g dosage).

[neuromancer]

Great research would buy again A+++++

Been trying this stack for less than a week, with a few modifications. No aniracetam, added l-arginine, and minimal selegiline and hydergine (~2mg each).

It's working fantastically well. Better than when I first started Piracetam. Much, much better. Recall, comprehension, mental agility seem to be outstanding. Mental tasks that took a few seconds of concentration last week seem to come instantaneously, easily now. Long-forgotten memories are surfacing effortlessly.

First time I've ever needed choline. Started in on a headache the first day, took ~100mg choline bitarate, felt better. ~250 mg seems to be about right for me. Switching to CDP soon.

Only thing I would change is the sulbutiamine. It tastes like ten different kinds of a**. Even through cranberry juice. Which does work well as a chaser, but next time, it's capsules all the way.

To those wondering about the combinations, efficacy, sides, etc, well, here's what I've done. I've tried each element seperately just to weigh the effects first. Starting slow and low seems to be fine for me. After trying each element individually, I started ramping up putting them together. A number of folks on imminst recommend caution.

Truth is, there are so many elements here, it's hard to judge, and the risk certainly isn't zero. I'm planning to cycle down a piece at a time after a few weeks, or at least cycle off certain elements like the hydergine, just to be on the safe side and get some perspective on different combinations. So I plan to keep to low doses over the mid- to long-term. But the combination right now works great.

One thing, there seems to be general confusion over Bacopa vs Gotu Kola. Both names are apparently used and mixed for two different herbs. For what it's worth, I'm taking Gotu Kola. It indeed seems to work fine on it's own, and it does take a few weeks to really notice.

One question for anyone about stomach issues. I need high Piracetam dosage, and I'm taking 10g l-arginine for HGH release. I put it all together on an empty stomach.

Works fantastic, and there don't seem to be obvious sides, except one thing. When my gut and I disagree, I tend to lose the argument. Any suggestions?

[neuromancer]

I'm about to start experimenting with some of the nootropic's mentioned here, and I was hoping to get some advice. I plan on starting with "one substance" (actually two: piracetam and CDPcholine), and phasing new substances in once a week (perhaps fortnightly, or monthly would be better?). However, I'm also thinking that I should be able to simultaneously start with a few other things that seem like they shouldn't interfere with my assessment of the efficacy of the different things I will be testing. So, for instance, I'm planning on starting with DHA, B12, maybe creatine (I'm a vegetarian), and multivitamin from the get-go, as I doubt these will hinder assessment or other substances. I'm less certain about Lion's Mane, but it seems like the NGF effect shouldn't influence my judgment of the effects of anything else (unless I attribute any positive effects of Lion's Mane with something else... but I don't know how likely that is). Finally, bacopa... I'm actually leaning towards phasing this in, as the short-term effects seem like they could make assessment of simultaneously introduced substances more difficult; on the other hand, part of me feels like maybe I should start it immediately, on account of the delayed onset of certain effects reported in the literature.

So I am thinking I will start with:
Piracetam
Citocoline (CDP-choline)
DHA
Lion's Mane
(maybe) Bacopa (any thoughts on this?)

Then phase in one each of the following, weekly:
Picamilon
Phosphatidyl Serine
Sulbutiamine
Aniracetam

Does anyone have any advice about starting up with this stack? I'd like to phase in the substances that are most likely to have positive effects early on, in the hopes of establishing a reliable base stack. So, any advice about a good order to introduce the substances in the second group? I'm a relative nootropic neophyte (I've never taken any, but I've been researching them for a while); I searched the forums as best as I could, but I apologize if my questions have been answered elsewhere.

Well, I think you have some good ideas for starting out cautiously, checking out side effects and efficacy first. If I were you, I'd scale a bit differently though. Just to preface, this is all uneducated unprofessional advice, just personal experience and reading.

If you want any of this to work, you'll need multivitamins. That will take time for your body to adjust to, especially if you have deficiencies. So I'd start on the multi, plan to take it pretty much forever, and stabilize that plus diet and exercise first. I personally wouldn't want a nootropic enhancement process competing with the process of repairing a deficiency or adjusting to new nutrients. IMO that would be your "sub-baseline".

Next, I've read that there's a bit of confusion over the difference between Gotu Kola and Bacopa. For what it's worth, I've been taking Gotu Kola, and took it alone for a few weeks. Reason being, anti-anxiety effects appear immediately, but recall improvement takes a few weeks to notice. Also, my understanding is there are no long-term ramifications for it. My understanding is that if it works for someone, with no trouble, you never have to stop. Could be wrong, it never hurts to be too cautious, but they say GK is extraordinarily safe. I think Lion's Mane is pretty safe too. So that would be the next base addition.

The same more or less goes for the Piracetam. My understanding is that it's the oldest, most well-tolerated and most well-studied nootropic. I've read that side effects are extremely rare and it's very, very difficult to ever take "too much". Seems that everyone responds differently to Piracetam, and there's a u-shaped response curve. That means there's an optimal dose "in the middle", but too much is as bad as too little, and everyone seems to need a different dose. In short, I'd try maybe ~500mg for a couple days, and if no response, bump up until it became noticeable. If it works, you'll really really know, it will really hit you.

In the same vein, it seems like there's an adaptation period for Piracetam too. This is sort of an educated guess from what I've read about responses and long-term use. If you're anything like me, your sensory input will multiply many-fold, and your brain will be running a mile a minute, so you may get easily distracted. It will be like seeing new colors for the first time, music will sound better, food will taste better, everything will become more subtle and complex. Your brain might need time to adjust to processing more input and processing faster. In my case it was some months before things "settled down". So I would establish this baseline before moving on.

Anecdotally, I don't think there are any long-term problems with Piracetam, but some people report stimulants, depressants or anxiety can be exacerbated. Also, it seems like long-term Piracetam use does create long-term or maybe permanent effects. You probably do not want long-term adaptation to a depressed, stimulated or anxious state. So I'd be cautious in the long term.

Next, cdp choline. I wouldn't start it unless really needed. Reason being, too much will make you depressed and on the toilet all day. Also, some people don't need it at all. Some people who do need it, only need it initially, and then need none. If it were me, I'd wait and see how the rest of the stack works. If I felt it were sub-optimal, or developed head or neck aches, I'd start minimal choline and see if it got better. And still scale back after a week and see if it was ok. You can also get plenty of choline from eggs.

I don't have experience with the rest, but I don't think you can go wrong at all with multivitamins, Gotu Kola, Lion's Mane and Piracetam, as long as you're sensibly cautious and otherwise healthy.

Again just my personal experience. Hope this helps and good luck, keep us posted.

[Shay]

I'm about to start experimenting with some of the nootropic's mentioned here, and I was hoping to get some advice. I plan on starting with "one substance" (actually two: piracetam and CDPcholine), and phasing new substances in once a week (perhaps fortnightly, or monthly would be better?). However, I'm also thinking that I should be able to simultaneously start with a few other things that seem like they shouldn't interfere with my assessment of the efficacy of the different things I will be testing. So, for instance, I'm planning on starting with DHA, B12, maybe creatine (I'm a vegetarian), and multivitamin from the get-go, as I doubt these will hinder assessment or other substances. I'm less certain about Lion's Mane, but it seems like the NGF effect shouldn't influence my judgment of the effects of anything else (unless I attribute any positive effects of Lion's Mane with something else... but I don't know how likely that is). Finally, bacopa... I'm actually leaning towards phasing this in, as the short-term effects seem like they could make assessment of simultaneously introduced substances more difficult; on the other hand, part of me feels like maybe I should start it immediately, on account of the delayed onset of certain effects reported in the literature.

So I am thinking I will start with:
Piracetam
Citocoline (CDP-choline)
DHA
Lion's Mane
(maybe) Bacopa (any thoughts on this?)

Then phase in one each of the following, weekly:
Picamilon
Phosphatidyl Serine
Sulbutiamine
Aniracetam

Does anyone have any advice about starting up with this stack? I'd like to phase in the substances that are most likely to have positive effects early on, in the hopes of establishing a reliable base stack. So, any advice about a good order to introduce the substances in the second group? I'm a relative nootropic neophyte (I've never taken any, but I've been researching them for a while); I searched the forums as best as I could, but I apologize if my questions have been answered elsewhere.

Picamilon made me very cranky/angry by evening. So bad that I only took it twice. I took only 1 pill in the morning (can't remember the precise dose).

[Benny Profane]

Well, I think you have some good ideas for starting out cautiously, checking out side effects and efficacy first. If I were you, I'd scale a bit differently though. Just to preface, this is all uneducated unprofessional advice, just personal experience and reading.

If you want any of this to work, you'll need multivitamins. That will take time for your body to adjust to, especially if you have deficiencies. So I'd start on the multi, plan to take it pretty much forever, and stabilize that plus diet and exercise first. I personally wouldn't want a nootropic enhancement process competing with the process of repairing a deficiency or adjusting to new nutrients. IMO that would be your "sub-baseline".

Unprofessional advice is exactly what I was looking for. That sounds flippant, but really, no kidding. I've read a lot of the articles in the academic journals in order to determine safety, efficacy, etc., but journals don't tell you anything about the subjective experience, and they certainly don't deal with the interactions between, potentially, 5-10 substances.

As for bacopa vs. gotu kola... I don't really know anything about the latter. I was referring to Bacopa monniera, and its apparent build-up period (see, e.g., "The chronic effects of an extract of Bacopa monniera (Brahmi) on cognitive function in healthy human subjects", Stough, et. al., 2001... the authors noted "an interesting finding was that the effects of B. monniera were only significant after 12 weeks of treatment."). But the chatter on these forums also indicates that bacopa can cause some immediate, short-term effects, so I am leaning towards phasing that in later.

That's interesting about CDP-choline. I guess I just assumed I should start using it simultaneously with piracetam. Most people here seem to suggest taking piracetam with a choline source, but it sounds like CDP-choline has it's own effects. I guess I'll start with just the piracetam, and if it gives me headaches, I'll add the CDP-choline.

I didn't really give any background, so here it is: I'm 26 years old. I've been taking multivitamins, in addition to vitamin D (I was diagnosed with a deficiency a few years ago... I recommend that everyone out there get checked if you haven't already. It seems as if it's pretty easy to have a deficiency, and I did see very positive (though non-cognitive) effects when I started supplementing), B-complex, B12 (I'm pretty much vegan, so I think this is necessary for me), and fluoxitine (Prozac). I also feel as if my diet is fairly well balanced (aside from being vegan), and I exercise fairly vigorously an hour a day, 4-6 times a week. So I don't think there's too much I can do to radically improve my lifestyle.

Anyway, thanks for the advice.

[chrono]

Does anyone have any advice about starting up with this stack? I'd like to phase in the substances that are most likely to have positive effects early on, in the hopes of establishing a reliable base stack. So, any advice about a good order to introduce the substances in the second group? I'm a relative nootropic neophyte (I've never taken any, but I've been researching them for a while); I searched the forums as best as I could, but I apologize if my questions have been answered elsewhere.

Sounds like you did quite a bit of reading before posting. All your ideas are in the right direction. Start the DHA and B12 any time. A (good) multivitamin is always a great idea, but is by no means essential for these other substances to work.

I would take sulbutiamine, picamilon, bacopa and lion's mane each on a test run for a few days before you start your stack proper. For sulbutiamine and picamilon, I think it would be valuable to know if/how you respond to these alone. Their effects are immediately apparent, and you can quickly evaluate dosages.

Bacopa is a little tricky; some people (myself included) find it gives them a considerable amount of fatigue and brain fog, while others don't. My theory atm is that it depends heavily on what kind of extraction is used. Some people report that lion's mane makes them tired as well, though it sounds like a lesser concern. The effects from these two take much longer to (subtly) manifest, but side effects will be more quickly apparent. And this doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't take them, but will give you a better idea what to expect. If results are to your liking, I would add these immediately after your piracetam/aniracetam titration.

When starting your stack proper, I would start with piracetam for at least a week to see if it gives you any negative sides that require choline supplementation. Titration is difficult and will probably require some extended scrutiny and acclimation to its subtle effects. I'd start piracetam anywhere from 800-1200mg; some people like less or more, but that's a reasonable sweet spot if you don't want to spend a month tinkering with a piracetam log.

ALCAR may work for a choline source. If not, I'd say it's worth adding to the beginning of your stack anyway for the mental energy, and synergy with piracetam.

If it were me, I would add aniracetam second, as the effects are subtle and close enough to piracetam that it might be easier to tweak the dosages before adding others. But you can work it a lot of different ways, obviously. Feel free to start a thread in the regimen section as well, if you feel like it. Would probably make it easier to read and discuss your individual responses or issues. Good luck!

[Benny Profane]

Sounds like you did quite a bit of reading before posting.

Yeah, I tried. I just finished an MLIS, and I still have access to University journal databases, so I was able to do a pretty thorough lit. search.

I'm embarrassed to say that I was not aware of the regimen section. I hope I didn't threadjack, here. I think I'll start a thread in the regimen section once I have a little more experience under my belt. Also, I was thinking of throwing together and posting a bibliography of some of the relevant articles I've found. I did a quick search, and it didn't seem as if anything like this has been done here yet. Would this be helpful? Has it already been done?

Thanks for the help. I plan on following your advice.

[chrono]

I'm embarrassed to say that I was not aware of the regimen section. I hope I didn't threadjack, here. I think I'll start a thread in the regimen section once I have a little more experience under my belt. Also, I was thinking of throwing together and posting a bibliography of some of the relevant articles I've found. I did a quick search, and it didn't seem as if anything like this has been done here yet. Would this be helpful? Has it already been done?

I don't think you hijacked, people have been doing that for most of this thread.

Personally, my thoughts on bibliography threads are divided. On one hand, more science is good. On the other, a long list of papers is probably only useful to those of us who do literature reviews anyway. I like to post an abstract in the relevant discussion threads, with the most important sentences in bold, and some useful excerpts with comments/discussion if it's a more in-depth discussion. Simply posting links to papers in a thread doesn't usually generate that much discussion.

If you're talking specifically about posting a list of articles that was particularly helpful in setting up your stack, it's an interesting thought. Though most people new to this aren't apt to read a lot of abstracts, putting some relevant ones together might be encouraging. As a lot of people seem to be using this thread as a jumping-off point these days, maybe post it here? Good formatting with regard to links and title (with not too much "extra" info like authors/ref citation) and some grouping by subject would make it most accessible/likely to be used.

EDIT: Oh, and welcome! Hope you'll stick around and help with the science ^_^

Would snorting [sulbutiamine] give a better effect? It doesn't seem to do much to me when I take it with milk, (1g dosage).

While it's water-soluble and might technically work, I can't recommend it. It would be a lot of powder to snort, and as the taste is evidently pretty foul, I imagine you'd regret it. And it might not be good for your nose, depending on its other properties. Several people have mentioned recently that they simply don't respond to sulbutiamine, even at pretty high dosages. Very strange.

Edited by chrono, 29 April 2010 - 03:10 AM.

[Guacamolium]

Don't nootropics only last 4.5 hours or less? Why take them all in one dose rather than spread put?

Receptor binding affinity differs vastly for different molecules. EPA for example lasts 72 hours roughly on the ligand. It all depends on the enzymes and the binding affinity (magnetic affection) of the molecule against antagonistic enzymes.

[neuromancer]

As for bacopa vs. gotu kola... I don't really know anything about the latter. I was referring to Bacopa monniera, and its apparent build-up period (see, e.g., "The chronic effects of an extract of Bacopa monniera (Brahmi) on cognitive function in healthy human subjects", Stough, et. al., 2001... the authors noted "an interesting finding was that the effects of B. monniera were only significant after 12 weeks of treatment."). But the chatter on these forums also indicates that bacopa can cause some immediate, short-term effects, so I am leaning towards phasing that in later.

It's a semantic problem. Gotu Kola and Bacopa are used interchangeably for two different plants (as I understand it). See here: http://en.wikipedia....tella_asiatica

Here is the relevant quote:

Gotu Kola (ගොටුකොල), Asiatic Pennywort, Indian Pennywort, Luei Gong Gen, Takip-kohol, Antanan, Pegagan, Pegaga, vallaarai (வல்லாரை), Kula kud, Bai Bua Bok (ใบบัวบก), Brahmi (this last name is shared with Bacopa monnieri^[1])

Maybe the word Brahmi is the source of the confusion, but I understand if you order Bacopa, there's another herb sold by the same name.

I would add that you make a really good point about the difference between clinical research and experience.

On another note, in the long-term Piracetam thread, I think many (including myself) report cycling. I'm not sure what would happen if you took it continuously for years. I keep about three to four months on, and a month or two off. Compared to everyone else that seems pretty conservative. But it seems that almost everyone cycling long-term has good long-term results. I quizzed a friend of mine too, it was the same. Several years of use, healthy lifestyle, similar cycling as mine, and there seem to be semi-permanent benefits.

Anyway the rest of your post sounds like you're really on the right track. I'd be interested to know how you progress, will you keep us posted?

[chrono]

It's a semantic problem. Gotu Kola and Bacopa are used interchangeably for two different plants (as I understand it). See here: http://en.wikipedia....tella_asiatica

I've never seen these used interchangeably. I think it's pretty clear what plant each of these names refers to. Bacopa is an entire genus (to which gotu kola does not belong), so if you just order "bacopa" from certain places, you could end up with any number of plants. But I've never seen it refer to anything but bacopa monnieri in our context.

As benny noted, they both have immediate anxiolytic effect, and putative long-term memory boosting as well.

Edited by chrono, 01 May 2010 - 12:12 AM.

[Guacamolium]

As benny noted, they both have immediate anxiolytic effect, and putative long-term memory boosting as well.

Herbally, Bacopa rocks more than anything as a cerebral enhancer. Just throwing that out there for the herbalists...

[Benny Profane]

I'd be interested to know how you progress, will you keep us posted?

Definitely. I think I will start a thread in the regimen section. I am planning on starting tomorrow, which means I will be trying different things individually for a while, then I will slowly start building my stack. So, it may be some time before I have anything useful to post.

Personally, my thoughts on bibliography threads are divided. On one hand, more science is good. On the other, a long list of papers is probably only useful to those of us who do literature reviews anyway. I like to post an abstract in the relevant discussion threads, with the most important sentences in bold, and some useful excerpts with comments/discussion if it's a more in-depth discussion. Simply posting links to papers in a thread doesn't usually generate that much discussion.

I think I agree. Forums probably aren't the best place for a laundry list of academic articles. However, I think that a wiki would be perfect for this sort of thing.

[tobicles]

Hello everyone, new member here I've been interested in nootropics for a while now, and this is my current stack:
Standard Multivitamin 2x a day
2-3 Fish oil capsules 3x a day (i think they have around 125mg EPA & DHA respectively)
ALCAR 800mg of a morning
Bacopa (20% standardised) 600mg of an evening
Choline Bitartrate 500mg of a morning and night
Essential Amino Acids 1g (Just to help with anything I might miss in my diet)
L-Tyrosine 800mg (generally taken when I feel I will need extra focus)
Taurine 800mg (mostly just because it was cheap, it's been shown to be beneficial to the heart, and I made up my own capsules with 800mg Taurine & ~100mg caffeine)
I also take a spoonful of lecithin granules every morning
Any comments, criticisms etc?
I've tried to base this off the OPs stack, and I would include piracetam and aniracetam, but when I tried to import these they were confiscated by customs. I also omitted pyritinol and sulbutiamine for sheer cost reasons, they are quite expensive per dose, and I couldn't find a cheap source of Lion's Mane.
I'm considering ordering some bacopa & ashwagandha root powder - I can get about 450g for the same price as it would cost me to get 30g of the standardised extracts from the place I bought these other nootropics (the standardised extract for ashwagandha they offer is 5%) however I can't seem to find any estimates on the natural concentration of the alkaloids in the plant powder, so I was hoping someone here would know.
Also, where is a place to buy Lion's Mane Mycelium, that sells in bulk? I live in Australia, and so the cost of shipping makes up the majority of the cost in most cases, so I'd be looking to order 500g or so.

Edited by tobicles, 04 June 2010 - 06:25 PM.

[babcock]

Also, where is a place to buy Lion's Mane Mycelium, that sells in bulk? I live in Australia, and so the cost of shipping makes up the majority of the cost in most cases, so I'd be looking to order 500g or so.

See this thread http://www.imminst.o...NGF-t37707.html towards the end for banter between chrono and I discussing the various non-sketchy places we could find to get mycellium extract from. Fungi Perfect I think was the place that sells bulk Lion's mane freeze dried powder. I think it was like $35 bucks per pound which although it's only freeze dried I've considered buying to add to my tea etc. along with taking an extract. When I buy the extract I plan on obtaining it from the place chrono mentions he got a discount (4 for price of 3 if you enter coupon code 'chrono') forget the name.

[chrono]

Hello everyone, new member here I've been interested in nootropics for a while now, and this is my current stack:
Standard Multivitamin 2x a day
2-3 Fish oil capsules 3x a day (i think they have around 125mg EPA & DHA respectively)
ALCAR 800mg of a morning
Bacopa (20% standardised) 600mg of an evening
Choline Bitartrate 500mg of a morning and night
Essential Amino Acids 1g (Just to help with anything I might miss in my diet)
L-Tyrosine 800mg (generally taken when I feel I will need extra focus)
Taurine 800mg (mostly just because it was cheap, it's been shown to be beneficial to the heart, and I made up my own capsules with 800mg Taurine & ~100mg caffeine)
I also take a spoonful of lecithin granules every morning
Any comments, criticisms etc?
I've tried to base this off the OPs stack, and I would include piracetam and aniracetam, but when I tried to import these they were confiscated by customs. I also omitted pyritinol and sulbutiamine for sheer cost reasons, they are quite expensive per dose, and I couldn't find a cheap source of Lion's Mane.
I'm considering ordering some bacopa & ashwagandha root powder - I can get about 450g for the same price as it would cost me to get 30g of the standardised extracts from the place I bought these other nootropics (the standardised extract for ashwagandha they offer is 5%) however I can't seem to find any estimates on the natural concentration of the alkaloids in the plant powder, so I was hoping someone here would know.
Also, where is a place to buy Lion's Mane Mycelium, that sells in bulk? I live in Australia, and so the cost of shipping makes up the majority of the cost in most cases, so I'd be looking to order 500g or so.

Hi! Looks like you have a pretty good stack going. No criticisms come to mind that you haven't addressed. Do you get much effect from 800mg tyrosine? I haven't played with it much; most recommendations I've seen are for 1-3g. I've found NALT much better so far.

What brand of bacopa are you taking? Does it give you any fatigue, brain fog or trouble waking up the next morning? I had trouble with those, but I think it differs with each extract. Or it could be personal. Something to think about if you're considering whole plant; it may have other side effects that are eliminated when removing a bunch of the plant matter. I'll keep an eye out for % composition.

Best place for lion's mane mycelium is Myco Essentials. See posts here and here.

[babcock]

I've found NALT much better so far.

Chrono, how well have you found NALT to work? I just picked up a bottle of Jarrows off iherb last night. What dosage do you take?

Thanks.

[chrono]

Chrono, how well have you found NALT to work? I just picked up a bottle of Jarrows off iherb last night. What dosage do you take?

I have the same stuff, been using it for about a month and a half. Trying to keep it down to once or twice a week, to avoid tolerance. The dosage I've been using is two caps—700mg. I take it on as empty a stomach as possible, first thing in the morning, or maybe between lunch and dinner.

Honestly, I haven't found it to be all that useful for cognitive enhancement. If I add it to my standby mix of piracetam and ALCAR, I notice slight difficulty in writing, or complex analysis. Though not really any "brain fog" under normal conditions. This is in contrast to many (or perhaps most) people on the board, who've mentioned that tyrosine improves thinking quality or speed.

What I use it for atm is mood enhancement (in a way). The increase in dopamine is very rewarding for me. It helps with some ADD symptoms like motivation, or the inability to relax and do something like watch a movie, as well as both general and social anxiety. These are the same things that adderall does for me, but in much lesser magnitude, and less "overwhelmingly." More like it gives me the opportunity to take advantage of this state of mind, but doesn't compel me in the ways amphetamine can.

To put it simply, I'm more relaxed and outgoing, at the cost of some finer cognitive enhancement. So I tend to save it for down time and social time. But I suspect my results may not be typical.