336 replies to this topic

[tobicles]

Hi! Looks like you have a pretty good stack going. No criticisms come to mind that you haven't addressed. Do you get much effect from 800mg tyrosine? I haven't played with it much; most recommendations I've seen are for 1-3g. I've found NALT much better so far.

What brand of bacopa are you taking? Does it give you any fatigue, brain fog or trouble waking up the next morning? I had trouble with those, but I think it differs with each extract. Or it could be personal. Something to think about if you're considering whole plant; it may have other side effects that are eliminated when removing a bunch of the plant matter. I'll keep an eye out for % composition.

Best place for lion's mane mycelium is Myco Essentials. See posts here and here.

Thanks - I don't see heaps of effect but a subtle increase in my ability to maintain focus on a task is improved (this could well be placebo, I've only recently begun experimenting with it). Generally I've been using this for tasks that are not particularly mentally taxing, but rather hard to get motivated to do or stay focused on (boring, necessary work rather than creative or challenging). I was wary of increasing the dose that much as I've heard of problems with peripheral stimulation, getting annoyed easily and other things; I'll give it a try though and report back.
I got all of these supplements from smart powders, so I guess it is their brand. I haven't experienced any such troubles, though I have been finding sleeping in to be extra tempting - this could well be because revision for exams awaits me in the day ahead Thanks, I would appreciate that - You'd think this would be discussed in literature discussing the properties of the extract, but I could not find any.
Speaking of these herbal extracts, what are your thoughts on ashwagandha, chrono? I have heard it has similar dendritic/nerve growth abilities to Lion's Mane, as well as increasing thyroid hormones and other effects.

I am also considering supplementing magnesium- However most store brands are very expensive and have a trivial amount of the oxide form (which I have since learned has very poor bioavailability); however online the best value magnesium supplements I can find are bundled with calcium & vitamin D, with the magnesium in the citrate form. Would this be a significant problem? I have heard that nearly all people are deficient in vitamin D, so this is a definite plus.
Thank you for that link to mycoessentials, and that does seem like a pretty good deal. However optimally I'd like to order a bulk amount, as with shipping being a large percentage of the cost (generally the same as if not more than the supplements themselves) it makes financial sense - Mycoessentials only offers 50g, and while I'll keep this in mind a bulk supply would be good too. I will likely just take the mycelium in a gel capsule.
Also, just as a side note: Everyone seems to universally recommend vitamin B as a kind of wonder vitamin, but I have found that when taking any vitamin B supplments I feel lethargic, depressed, my thoughts feel cloudy - Almost the exact OPPOSITE of what they are claimed to do. Thoughts? (Oh and disclosure, I also take 30mg mirtazapine of an evening - interesting that this modulates norepinepherine and serotonin with an inverse agonist, a study has shown it increased memory, and I think i remember seeing something about how modulation of 5ht2c receptors induces brain plasticity)

[Templanoid]

Thanks bmud, interesting thread, but all this is too much details for me... as my brain is pretty fogged most of the time, hehe.

I need some beginner's adivce..
My brain has always been fogged and fatigued, and lately somewhat slow I think, so I'm thinking of starting to try Piracetam...I wanted to know, what kind of dosage should I start with? Will the normal 1600mg per dose (after breakfast, lunch and dinner) do? Also, about how long do I have to continuously take it before I might see the effects? And last thing, my country (Thailand) doesn't have CDP-Choline.. so can I take Lecithin instead as a choline source? Or just eat eggs? What should I do?

Depending on how that works, I might up the ante in the future.

Thanks a lot for your help.

[babcock]

Thanks bmud, interesting thread, but all this is too much details for me... as my brain is pretty fogged most of the time, hehe.

I need some beginner's adivce..
My brain has always been fogged and fatigued, and lately somewhat slow I think, so I'm thinking of starting to try Piracetam...I wanted to know, what kind of dosage should I start with? Will the normal 1600mg per dose (after breakfast, lunch and dinner) do? Also, about how long do I have to continuously take it before I might see the effects? And last thing, my country (Thailand) doesn't have CDP-Choline.. so can I take Lecithin instead as a choline source? Or just eat eggs? What should I do?

Depending on how that works, I might up the ante in the future.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Personally, I take 3g piracetam every morning without a choline source. I started doing this as an experiment after reading this thread here. I've been doing this for three weeks and haven't gotten any headaches. I had previously been taking piracetem at large doses (4-8g) a day WITH choline and had gotten headaches within 2 weeks of initially taking it.
@3g with orange juice on an empty stomach in the morning the effects are not terribly noticeable but it is noticeable in comparison with the mornings I don't take piracetam. At this point I probably won't reorder piracetam after I run out but that won't be for a while with the .75kg I have left. (I find other things to be a better noot experience for me, ALCAR + ALA for example)
BTW, the 4-8g doses did give me noticeable effects for maybe an hour or so after I took the dose. It was almost a light headed feeling but not in a disconcerting way. Definitely felt more "peppy" on the drive into work.

[chrono]

Thanks, I would appreciate that - You'd think this would be discussed in literature discussing the properties of the extract, but I could not find any.

For bacopa, the saponins (there are 12 of them, 5 being the major constituents) comprise 5-6% of the dry/powdered plant material (from Chem Pharm Bull (Tokyo). 2006 Jun;54(6):907-11).

Speaking of these herbal extracts, what are your thoughts on ashwagandha, chrono? I have heard it has similar dendritic/nerve growth abilities to Lion's Mane, as well as increasing thyroid hormones and other effects.

Will look into ashgawandha composition next. This plant sounds awesome to me, but honestly I haven't looked into it much beyond the neuroprotection/genesis properties. I'm a little concerned about the possibility of fatigue, but it's still near the top of my list for neuro-helpfuls (probably before lion's mane, due to the cost). Some of the studies have shown that very minute quantities of the Withanolide molecules are nedded to achieve some of these effects, which is pretty exciting.

Would you mind saying where you're thinking about getting these bulk plant powders?

I am also considering supplementing magnesium- However most store brands are very expensive and have a trivial amount of the oxide form (which I have since learned has very poor bioavailability); however online the best value magnesium supplements I can find are bundled with calcium & vitamin D, with the magnesium in the citrate form. Would this be a significant problem? I have heard that nearly all people are deficient in vitamin D, so this is a definite plus.

First, I would recommend a form other than the citrate, which is most likely to cause GI problems like loose stool. Mg taurate, glycinate, and malate (and probably a few others) are good forms that don't have this effect for most people. If you're into capping your own stuff, BAC sells Mg malate for 33¢/g elemental Mg (this is the cheapest I've been able to find any of the forms I would take, without spending more than $100 at once). If you want to give citrate a try, PureBulk sells it for about 17¢/g elemental.

I wouldn't buy a product which combines magnesium with calcium. There are several discussions on the board that suggest that calcium inhibits magnesium absorption if taken at the same time. Also, it seems like calcium supplementation isn't as necessary as magnesium, so it may not be a good idea, especially if you're locked into a certain ratio. which may give you a higher dose than you want when you take your desired amount of Mg. Vitamin D is best taken in gelcap form, and you'll probably want to be able to tweak your dose without changing the amount of Mg you're taking.

Thank you for that link to mycoessentials, and that does seem like a pretty good deal. However optimally I'd like to order a bulk amount, as with shipping being a large percentage of the cost (generally the same as if not more than the supplements themselves) it makes financial sense - Mycoessentials only offers 50g, and while I'll keep this in mind a bulk supply would be good too. I will likely just take the mycelium in a gel capsule.

I don't think you're likely to find a quality mycelium product in a more "bulk" quantity than that. But if you do, please share! Did you see the 25% off coupon code Myco gave us for orders of 200g? And interestingly, the PP checkout doesn't add any charge for shipping, so apparently it's free.

My brain has always been fogged and fatigued, and lately somewhat slow I think, so I'm thinking of starting to try Piracetam...I wanted to know, what kind of dosage should I start with? Will the normal 1600mg per dose (after breakfast, lunch and dinner) do? Also, about how long do I have to continuously take it before I might see the effects? And last thing, my country (Thailand) doesn't have CDP-Choline.. so can I take Lecithin instead as a choline source? Or just eat eggs? What should I do?

Anywhere from 800-1600mg+ will probably work fine. You may notice it immediately, or it may take a few weeks. Lecithin works fine for most people, maybe about 1200mg with each dose? ALCAR might work for this requirement as well. And some people find it keeps them up if they take it late at night. Every 5 hours might be a better number. And piracetam isn't fat soluble, so taking it on an empty stomach will result in increased, faster absorption.

[brundall]

Is it pointless to take both CDP Choline and ALCAR as part of a supplement regime? I know they are both a choline source but do they offer additional benefits to justify taking both?

[babcock]

Is it pointless to take both CDP Choline and ALCAR as part of a supplement regime? I know they are both a choline source but do they offer additional benefits to justify taking both?

Things CDP-Choline has been shown to do that ALCAR does not:

• Improve Dopamine Receptor Density (ref)

Things ALCAR has been shown to do that CDP-Choline does not:

• Improve sperm motility (ref)
• Cross the BBB to provide anti-oxidant support (ref)
• Improve Insulin response (ref)(ref)
• Has a positive effect on muscle diseases and heart conditions(ref)(ref)

I never knew ALCAR was a choline source, could you hit me up with a link explaining this?

[Templanoid]

Personally, I take 3g piracetam every morning without a choline source. I started doing this as an experiment after reading this thread here. I've been doing this for three weeks and haven't gotten any headaches. I had previously been taking piracetem at large doses (4-8g) a day WITH choline and had gotten headaches within 2 weeks of initially taking it.
@3g with orange juice on an empty stomach in the morning the effects are not terribly noticeable but it is noticeable in comparison with the mornings I don't take piracetam. At this point I probably won't reorder piracetam after I run out but that won't be for a while with the .75kg I have left. (I find other things to be a better noot experience for me, ALCAR + ALA for example)
BTW, the 4-8g doses did give me noticeable effects for maybe an hour or so after I took the dose. It was almost a light headed feeling but not in a disconcerting way. Definitely felt more "peppy" on the drive into work.

My brain has always been fogged and fatigued, and lately somewhat slow I think, so I'm thinking of starting to try Piracetam...I wanted to know, what kind of dosage should I start with? Will the normal 1600mg per dose (after breakfast, lunch and dinner) do? Also, about how long do I have to continuously take it before I might see the effects? And last thing, my country (Thailand) doesn't have CDP-Choline.. so can I take Lecithin instead as a choline source? Or just eat eggs? What should I do?

Anywhere from 800-1600mg+ will probably work fine. You may notice it immediately, or it may take a few weeks. Lecithin works fine for most people, maybe about 1200mg with each dose? ALCAR might work for this requirement as well. And some people find it keeps them up if they take it late at night. Every 5 hours might be a better number. And piracetam isn't fat soluble, so taking it on an empty stomach will result in increased, faster absorption.

Thanks for your reply guys.. well I tried it today..

I took 800mg of Nootropil this morning, and soon enough I felt quiet angry and agitated... :/ I felt terrible, I didnt think much at first, but then I realized this anger must be related to the piracetam, and now I read in that "piracetam with no choline" thread that some people have gotten angry byt taking piracetam alone with no choline source..

so what should I do now? Should I got buy Lecithin? And how much dose of Lecithin should I have with 800mg of Piracetam? Do I take Lecithin before or after Piracetam? Or take them together? Please help guys, I just need basic info. Been having a lot of brainfog that I really need to get sorted. Thanks for your input.

[babcock]

Personally, I take 3g piracetam every morning without a choline source. I started doing this as an experiment after reading this thread here. I've been doing this for three weeks and haven't gotten any headaches. I had previously been taking piracetem at large doses (4-8g) a day WITH choline and had gotten headaches within 2 weeks of initially taking it.
@3g with orange juice on an empty stomach in the morning the effects are not terribly noticeable but it is noticeable in comparison with the mornings I don't take piracetam. At this point I probably won't reorder piracetam after I run out but that won't be for a while with the .75kg I have left. (I find other things to be a better noot experience for me, ALCAR + ALA for example)
BTW, the 4-8g doses did give me noticeable effects for maybe an hour or so after I took the dose. It was almost a light headed feeling but not in a disconcerting way. Definitely felt more "peppy" on the drive into work.

My brain has always been fogged and fatigued, and lately somewhat slow I think, so I'm thinking of starting to try Piracetam...I wanted to know, what kind of dosage should I start with? Will the normal 1600mg per dose (after breakfast, lunch and dinner) do? Also, about how long do I have to continuously take it before I might see the effects? And last thing, my country (Thailand) doesn't have CDP-Choline.. so can I take Lecithin instead as a choline source? Or just eat eggs? What should I do?

Anywhere from 800-1600mg+ will probably work fine. You may notice it immediately, or it may take a few weeks. Lecithin works fine for most people, maybe about 1200mg with each dose? ALCAR might work for this requirement as well. And some people find it keeps them up if they take it late at night. Every 5 hours might be a better number. And piracetam isn't fat soluble, so taking it on an empty stomach will result in increased, faster absorption.

Thanks for your reply guys.. well I tried it today..

I took 800mg of Nootropil this morning, and soon enough I felt quiet angry and agitated... :/ I felt terrible, I didnt think much at first, but then I realized this anger must be related to the piracetam, and now I read in that "piracetam with no choline" thread that some people have gotten angry byt taking piracetam alone with no choline source..

so what should I do now? Should I got buy Lecithin? And how much dose of Lecithin should I have with 800mg of Piracetam? Do I take Lecithin before or after Piracetam? Or take them together? Please help guys, I just need basic info. Been having a lot of brainfog that I really need to get sorted. Thanks for your input.

I tend to lean towards the anger either being how your body responds to piracetam (in which case you should stop taking piracetam) or a placebo effect. Choline was originally only suggested to be administered because it supposedly increases dopamine receptor density which is supposed to help piracetam absorption/effect. So my theory would be that if piracetam is truly effecting affecting you this much without choline it would only increase the effect with choline.

My recommendation would be to stop if you can't tolerate the "anger" or else experiment with dosages for a few days and see if you get the same effect every time. I definitely notice different effects dependent on the size of the dosage I take.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Curse you english language.

Edited by babcock, 09 June 2010 - 04:17 PM.

[unregistered_user]

Use the anger to confront problematic people in your life. That's what I did.

[chrono]

Damnable English language! It's about time someone came up with a better one.

I think the "piracetam without choline" hypothesis is a little problematic. I used it that way for about a year and a half, took an ~8 month break, and when I came back I needed acetyl/choline supplementation. If I stop my choline now, it takes 2-3 days before I start getting brain fog, slight headaches, and not-inconsiderable irritability and depression; just like when I re-started piracetam without choline. I know (IRL) two people who have used piracetam for 3+ years without even knowing about the choline issue, but many others who require it immediately. I'd like to work toward an understanding of what factors influence this, but I think my case shows it's not even as simple as "some need it, some don't." My current theory is that this requirement is dependent on a complex set of variables, including diet (e.g. glucose is one of the precursors of ACh), individual physiological factors including activity of several aspects of the cholinergic system, other substances ingested, and individual metabolism and effect of piracetam (including the big question of whether it changes over time).

But as I understand it, the general consensus about choline requirement was based on the fact that piracetam increases ACh utilization, and hence depletes ACh levels (in some parts of the brain).

Templanoid: it might be that piracetam doesn't agree with you, but I think it's more likely that you need choline supplementation. Lecithin or choline bitartrate should be available locally. As for figuring out the dosage, I'd encourage you to use the google search box (maybe lecithin dose or how much lecithin).

If you're more adventurous, you could also try ALCAR, but it's more "active" than the other choline sources I just mentioned, and your response to it may be variable. ALCAR doesn't increase choline, but is possibly able to increase the amount of acetylcholine through a couple of mechanisms (babcock, I'm hoping to start a new thread on this subject in the next few days, because it's come up a lot recently. Working my way through some papers now to try to get all the mechanisms right). ALCAR works great for me for the purpose of supplementing piracetam (much better than Alpha GPC did), and has the bonus of some awesome synergy with the mental effects.

Edited by chrono, 09 June 2010 - 05:40 PM.

[medievil]

I got tolerant to piracetam after a few weeks, it allways worked fine but possibly it was the lack of a proper choline source wich caused acetylcholine depletion and thus my tolerance. I never really tought of that.

Edited by medievil, 09 June 2010 - 05:43 PM.

[babcock]

My current theory is that this requirement is dependent on a complex set of variables, including diet (e.g. glucose is one of the precursors of ACh), individual physiological factors including activity of several aspects of the cholinergic system, other substances ingested, and individual metabolism and effect of piracetam (including the big question of whether it changes over time).

But as I understand it, the general consensus about choline requirement was based on the fact that piracetam increases ACh utilization, and hence depletes ACh levels (in some parts of the brain).

Completely agree, I may not need to supplement Choline because I tend to eat a lot of eggs and meat. I didn't really consider that perhaps someone's diet would affect it that much but now thinking about it, it only makes perfect sense.

Templanoid: it might be that piracetam doesn't agree with you, but I think it's more likely that you need choline supplementation. Lecithin or choline bitartrate should be available locally. As for figuring out the dosage, I'd encourage you to use the google search box (maybe lecithin dose or how much lecithin).

I'm still going to disagree that not having adequate choline will produce emotional responses to piracetam but that is strictly my own theory and not based on anything so feel free to disagree. I guess I was suggesting this (anger = placebo) more because I think it's unlikely (again, from my experience/others I have read about) that day one, on a low dose, someone's body is going to react that profoundly to piracetam. I'd really like to see Templanoid half halve the dosage and try it for about a week and see if he still feels angry when he takes it.

BTW Templanoid, is Nootropil straight piracetam or is there anything else in it?

If you're more adventurous, you could also try ALCAR, but it's more "active" than the other choline sources I just mentioned, and your response to it may be variable. ALCAR doesn't increase choline, but is possibly able to increase the amount of acetylcholine through a couple of mechanisms (babcock, I'm hoping to start a new thread on this subject in the next few days, because it's come up a lot recently. Working my way through some papers now to try to get all the mechanisms right). ALCAR works great for me for the purpose of supplementing piracetam (much better than Alpha GPC did), and has the bonus of some awesome synergy with the mental effects.

Heh, adventurous? IMO ALCAR is one of the best supplements out there and has one of the least profound but most noticeable effects of the noots out there (If that makes any sense at all). I ran out of ALCAR a few weeks ago (stupid desiccant packet in the bottom made me think I had more left ) I didn't think much of it, but when not taking it I feel so much more lethargic in the morning (back to how I used to feel pre-noot supps, good hour or so to "wake-up"). If someone new to noots were to approach me today and ask me where they should start I would definitely say ALCAR and R-ALA. Much more subtle feeling compared to racetams.
Now that you point it out chrono, I have been taking ALCAR with my piracetam and have had much more reliable/better effects than when I was just taking piracetam and CDP-Choline. Would be interesting to hypothesize ALCAR+piracetam synergize (I know it's not a word) to relive the headaches I had been experiencing before I started taking ALCAR (and R-ALA). I think I'll start upping my piracetam dosages back to 4-8g and see if I develop headaches again. I will be looking forward to reading your proposed thread.

Edit: Gah, iherb better hurry up with my ALCAR!

Edited by babcock, 09 June 2010 - 09:17 PM.

[rvdvaart]

I forgot to ask this in the other thread but if Piracetam works so well as a nootropic then why aren't there any mainstream news stories about it? If you do a Google News search, nothing comes up (at least in English). You would think the news media would pick up on it if it worked so well.

Edited by rvdvaart, 10 June 2010 - 02:42 AM.

[nito]

I forgot to ask this in the other thread but if Piracetam works so well as a nootropic then why aren't there any mainstream news stories about it? If you do a Google News search, nothing comes up (at least in English). You would think the news media would pick up on it if it worked so well.

Seems only to work for a lucky few ones.

[Vodka]

I've read this thread completely and immediately purchased the following:

I'm going to try to imitate the OP's regimen (at least proportionally) and I'll report back with results.

25g Aniracetam Powder $20
100g Piracetam Powder $15
250mgx30 Cognizin Citicoline (CDP Choline) capsules $15
500mgx30 Phosphatidyl Serine Matrix capsules $15
420mgx180 Phosphatidyl Choline $15
500mgx30 Ginkgo Awareness (bacopa) $7
Fish oil/lion's mane instore

[chrono]

haha, "adventurous" was definitely the wrong word to use regarding ALCAR. I've been using piracetam + ALCAR steadily for about 5 months now, and I can't say enough good things about it. There are a few people here who don't respond well to ALCAR, getting headaches or fatigue. But mostly, I guess I was trying to say that it's something that has effects of its own, and while they're reasonably transparent, it would skew your idea of what piracetam is like if you're just starting out.

And I really hope "synergize" is a word, because I use it a lot

The reaction of "anger" certainly might be placebo, but that doesn't sound like the kind of psychosomatic response someone would create/expect for piracetam. And I doubt templanoid literally meant like, angry with rage, though that's just my guess. It sounded a bit like some of my experiments with choline-less piracetam...it takes 3-4 days for the effect to manifest in me, but aren't there some people who feel this way immediately? I start feeling very unlike myself, agitated in a subtle yet pervasive way. I have trouble thinking clearly, and tend to react irritably to stimuli and people. "Depression" is far too strong, and the wrong term...but I remember pretty clearly waking up during one of these experiments and having suicidal thoughts. Not that I was in any way impelled to act on it, but given my unflinchingly positive outlook (which has persisted through many grueling and tragic circumstances), the fact that suicide made sense to me for even a moment gives me a great deal of respect for what messing with the cholinergic system can do. Not trying to scare people away from piracetam in any way, but just giving an example of the possible magnitude of the effect we're talking about.

babcock, were you using ALCAR during your piracetam-without-choline experiment? If so, it definitely skewed your results; ALCAR has 4-5 mechanisms which can potentially increase acetylcholine levels via 2-3 cholinergic systems. I may not get to start that thread until early next week. I'm leaving for the humanity+ conference in Boston tomorrow, and I have a few more papers I can grab while I'm in town.

I forgot to ask this in the other thread but if Piracetam works so well as a nootropic then why aren't there any mainstream news stories about it? If you do a Google News search, nothing comes up (at least in English). You would think the news media would pick up on it if it worked so well.

Coupla reasons. First, it's about 50 years old. And it's subtle in its effect, probably moreso than caffeine. Its efficacy is based on internet acecdotes, some success in treating mild cognitive impairment, and a very few studies in healthy people showing mostly a small increase in verbal memory.

News is based on stories, not reporting facts for the good of viewers/readers (cynical, but largely true). Nothing about piracetam is sensational or controversial enough to make a major story. And perhaps most importantly, cognitive enhancement is a fringe science, not accepted in cultural ideology or the disease-oriented/"not broke, don't fix it" mentality of the medical world. The only big CE stories I can think of are for modafinil or adderall, which both have some elements of controversy, and acceptance as actual prescription medications in the US.

I'm glad piracetam has never made headlines, because it would probably be an angle like "internet forum users take unregulated/untested/unproven drug as mental steroid."


@Vodka: welcome to the board! Hope you'll let us know how those work out for you.

[outsider]

I forgot to ask this in the other thread but if Piracetam works so well as a nootropic then why aren't there any mainstream news stories about it? If you do a Google News search, nothing comes up (at least in English). You would think the news media would pick up on it if it worked so well.

If main stream news did really tell what's really going on they would just lose credibility. They have to tell just enough so it is called news but not too much so they keep their jobs. It's a system. So if you find something that is wonderful for you, you don't need CNN or FDA to tell you what to do, you know what to do. Same thing if it doesn't work.

Edited by outsider, 10 June 2010 - 08:58 AM.

[babcock]

The reaction of "anger" certainly might be placebo, but that doesn't sound like the kind of psychosomatic response someone would create/expect for piracetam. And I doubt templanoid literally meant like, angry with rage, though that's just my guess. It sounded a bit like some of my experiments with choline-less piracetam...it takes 3-4 days for the effect to manifest in me, but aren't there some people who feel this way immediately? I start feeling very unlike myself, agitated in a subtle yet pervasive way. I have trouble thinking clearly, and tend to react irritably to stimuli and people. "Depression" is far too strong, and the wrong term...but I remember pretty clearly waking up during one of these experiments and having suicidal thoughts. Not that I was in any way impelled to act on it, but given my unflinchingly positive outlook (which has persisted through many grueling and tragic circumstances), the fact that suicide made sense to me for even a moment gives me a great deal of respect for what messing with the cholinergic system can do. Not trying to scare people away from piracetam in any way, but just giving an example of the possible magnitude of the effect we're talking about.

Wow, I have honestly never experienced any "emotional" response directly due to taking piracetam. Even when I dose at high levels I experience a slight euphoric feeling for the hour or so after taking it. By euphoric I mean I feel a heightened sense of things, things seem clearer or almost if they're moving more slowly because my brain actively comprehends what happens as soon as it happens (I swear, I'm no Isochroma). But that effect is ultimately short lived and replaced by the less noticeable feeling.

babcock, were you using ALCAR during your piracetam-without-choline experiment? If so, it definitely skewed your results; ALCAR has 4-5 mechanisms which can potentially increase acetylcholine levels via 2-3 cholinergic systems. I may not get to start that thread until early next week. I'm leaving for the humanity+ conference in Boston tomorrow, and I have a few more papers I can grab while I'm in town.

Yes, I was taking 533mg ALCAR + 150mg R-ALA + 3g piracetam on an empty stomach and it was great. Immediately kicked me out of my morning fogginess way better than when I used to chug cup after cup of coffee + sugar. As has been stated a million times it's a way better alertness too, no jitters, barely noticeable until you stop taking it. Yea, I was aware that it prolly skewed the results via some synergism but was unaware that it increased choline levels.

Synergize is reported by firefox to be an incorrect spelling. Suggestions are synergism and synergistic and synergy and energize. If firefox says it isn't a real word, it's obviously not a real word...course it also says piracetam isn't a real word...

[Templanoid]

Okay, so I think I'll go buy some Lecithin tomorrow, and also see if they have any L-Carnitine available (that's the same as ALCAR, right?).

Now about my anger/agitation response to Piracetam: I've never really taken Piracetam before this. The first time I just took a 400mg pill of Nootropil (and yes, the Nootropil package says it is 400mg of Piracetam per pill, with nothing else listed, so I'm assuming it is pure Piracetam), I noticed nothing really, it was really as if I took nothing.. and I'm unsuare about having to take it for weeks on its own, I think taking it with Lecithin might be a good idea to try something.. unfortunately, Nootropil (the only Piracetam brand I've found in my country) seems to be the only available option, and it's pretty expensive.

I'll take dose of about 1200mg Piracetam along with about 1200mg Lecithin (which is fine I hope?) and update on how I felt.

The main problem that I'm trying to cure for me is mental fatigue, physical fatigue (not weakness, but a lot of constant tiredness), and perhaps get my cognition to be more clearer.

Edited by Templanoid, 10 June 2010 - 06:47 PM.

[Templanoid]

Sorry for my earlier ignorance, I just found out the difference between L-Carnitine and ALCAR. Now I don't know if it's even possible to find ALCAR or ALA where I live. :( Living here has some big disadvantages.

[chrono]

ALCAR is indicated for fatigue, mental and physical, as well as improving mental clarity. I'd encourage you to pursue its purchase or importation.

[Mindweaver]

I'm leaving this question open to all forms of substance use, but I was just curious.. would a night of drinking (obviously to get drunk) effect the progress I've made with Piracetam stacking? Or would it be safe to do it, as long as it is in moderation? I was like, an eighth of my way down a Screwdriver and realized I didn't want to risk losing any progress Piracetam had in healing my brain from dissociative damage (that I had been suffering for 2 years) so I just wanted some opinions.. I've only been on Piracetam for 4 days.

Thanks

[Vodka]

chrono: Thanks for the welcome.

Well, I intend to fully copy the OP's stack and maybe phase out some parts, because I want to get it down to $100/mo instead of ~$150/mo. (Perhaps ala http://www.amazon.co.../ref=cm_sw_su_w )

How should I go about starting off slowly? I'm thinking about taking a small dose of everything for a few days before I start increasing. Is this the way to approach it, or should I start off with full doses of Piracetam/CDP Choline/Sulbutiamine and add in more? I plan to fully take note and keep track of the effects as to not make my experimentation a waste...

Has anybody else tried the OP's stack? All the posts I've read involved discussing how to go about finding the supplements, or their experiences with one or two of the drugs.

Thanks in advance

[babcock]

I'm leaving this question open to all forms of substance use, but I was just curious.. would a night of drinking (obviously to get drunk) effect the progress I've made with Piracetam stacking? Or would it be safe to do it, as long as it is in moderation? I was like, an eighth of my way down a Screwdriver and realized I didn't want to risk losing any progress Piracetam had in healing my brain from dissociative damage (that I had been suffering for 2 years) so I just wanted some opinions.. I've only been on Piracetam for 4 days.

Thanks

I've read posts of people claiming piracetam has helped them become intoxicated faster and I have also read that piracetam helps people control hangovers better. All anecdotal. Piracetam won't help your brain "regain" at all, or at least there is no scientific evidence of it (correct me if I'm wrong chrono :-P). Piracetam is merely more of a stimulant for your brain rather than a neuroprotective. If you're looking to reverse brain damage I would take a look at Lion's Mane. Thread here.

But yes, drinking in moderation is recommended always unless you can spare some brain cells.

[Templanoid]

Alright, an update. I took 800mg of Piracetam with 2400mg of Lecithin (which is about 345mg of Phosphatidyl Choline) and I didn't feel angry this time. I felt very normal. I didnt notice any improvements at all. I felt just normal/neutral. I haven't been taking it daily, as I have only one strip of Piracetam, and it seems to be quite expensive to buy weeks worth of pills here.

But tomorrow or day after I'll try taking 1600mg of Piracetam along with 4800mg of Lecithin (that's about 690mg of Phosphatidyl Choline).. what do you guys think? Is that dosage too much?

Chrono: I tried to get hold of ALCAR, I've looked a lot but most pharmacies here tell me they don't sell it in my country. Sucks. :/

[babcock]

Alright, an update. I took 800mg of Piracetam with 2400mg of Lecithin (which is about 345mg of Phosphatidyl Choline) and I didn't feel angry this time. I felt very normal. I didnt notice any improvements at all. I felt just normal/neutral. I haven't been taking it daily, as I have only one strip of Piracetam, and it seems to be quite expensive to buy weeks worth of pills here.

But tomorrow or day after I'll try taking 1600mg of Piracetam along with 4800mg of Lecithin (that's about 690mg of Phosphatidyl Choline).. what do you guys think? Is that dosage too much?

Chrono: I tried to get hold of ALCAR, I've looked a lot but most pharmacies here tell me they don't sell it in my country. Sucks. :/

If you're trying to establish a baseline for how you react to piracetam, you should keep a consistent dosage for a set period of time. Give it a week or so (unless you experience bad results). It becomes difficult to infer anything when you try random dosages. I'm still sticking with your anger you experienced that one time may be unrelated.

I always feel "normal/neutral" now when taking my consistent dosage of piracetam (3g). The only times I feel something awry is when I megadose (4-8g). I understand that since piracetam is hard to come by where you are it is hard to experiment but the only way you'll be able to figure out a long term usage schedule is to move gradually.

When I supplemented CDP-Choline I only took 250 mg with my 4-8g doses. This seemed to work for the few weeks before the afternoon headaches. I don't think increasing your choline intake will affect results that much. Other threads I read here seem to suggest more that supplementing Choline is more to guarantee your dopamine receptor density was adequately supplemented not something that was necessary to generate the piracetam effect. With this in mind I would suggest you stay at 2400mg of lecithin and increase your piracetam dose. Don't change both variables at once.

[chrono]

@Guru: I don't think it's well understood what kind of damage dissociatives actually do, physical or mental (referring to the DXM psychosis thread here). As babcock said, I don't think it's been shown that piracetam has any mechanisms which would repair damaged brain structures. Maybe the temporary increase in brain functions served to clear out some pipes in some way. But to answer your question: it's very hard to answer your question. Alcohol acts mostly on different systems than piracetam and dissociatives, so you're probably all set. OTOH, it's one of the worst drugs known to man, and anything but small amounts is bad for your brain (and psychology) in a host of other ways. If you're really worried about how your brain works, weigh this carefully.

@Templanoid: Does your country allow importation of supplements/drugs? I know Canada doesn't allow ALCAR sales either, but I have no problem mailing it to my friend who is going to school there. What country are you in? I don't think 1600mg is too much...probably on the high end of what I would consider the "sweet spot," though others here take more for one dose. Though there's a school of thought which suggests taking an "attack dose" of 2g+ for a week or two when you're starting out. Not sure how much sense this makes, but it's what I did (mostly by accident), and worked out well.

I think normal/neutral is just about what you should be looking for. Most of the changes will be in subtle improvements in the way you think, what you remember, verbal memory and eloquence, etc. I get a slight change in vision, things are more sharp and vivid.

@Vodka: If you scroll up the thread, one of my last posts (#138) had some good advice about starting out. Basically, give yourself as much time with each individual variable (substance/dosage/life circumstance/combinations) as you have patience for, so you'll know how and when it will work best for you. I'd test whatever short-acting things you have on hand first (like sulbutiamine), then stop and give piracetam/choline 2-3 weeks by itself, so you can titrate your dosages accurately.

[tepol]

Does it make any real difference if you take powdered caps as opposed to say liquid form for most nootropics - esp anything do with nerve health like choline , lions mane etc ?

[chrono]

Liquid absorption is going to be quicker, because the capsule and then powder don't have to dissolve. Certain molecules might be more stable when not in solution, but probably none that we're talking about here. So in short, not really.

[tepol]

Liquid absorption is going to be quicker, because the capsule and then powder don't have to dissolve. Certain molecules might be more stable when not in solution, but probably none that we're talking about here. So in short, not really.

I figured as much

thanks