336 replies to this topic

[longevitynow]

In the morning I typically take Piracetam/ALCAR/Choline. Recently made a powdered mix 5 parts Piracetam/1 part Aniracetam/1 part Choline Bitartrate. Taking about 1500mg 2-3x a day. Always do morning dose, so far often miss the others. Just took an 8pm dose with a little ALCAR. Within 5 minutes my visual acuity was noticeably sharper. TV look more lucid. Felt very centered and focused. More often than not I take a broad morning stack and am much more sparse after that as many things tend to affect my sleep at night. Sometimes I take Piracetam by itself in the evening/night and while I can stay up later and be more focused, I dream more (not bad) but may wake up very early without being able to go back to sleep. We will see what happens tonight. But just writing this to mention the significant shift in visual acuity and centeredness that I haven't noticed so much in the morning. I'm guessing I was somewhat fatigued (especially compared to how I feel in the morning) and the effects of the nootropics might be more salient when I am not as sharp/alert. I feel good!

[fro69]

I have been taking the stack oompaloompa listed in the first page of posts for about two weeks.

The first thing I notice is my brain does not fatigue. I used to require a lot more sleep. My work focus and productivity in my life overall has increased.

I noticed some anti anxiety effect. With strangers and general public I approach without any apprehension and start conversations with anyone.

Anyway Happy with the effect and will continue to use these substances. I have had many concussions in sports over my life and did my fare share of partying in college and past. I'm sure my brain has some healing to do.

I may have had some depression and steered away from SSRI's but depression or whatever It has lifted with nootropics. Amen.

I am a heath care practitioner. I wish I could offer these to patients. But I want training from a professional. Looked on the web and could not find any professional courses.

Just my thoughts,

Thanks oompaloompa

[nito]

oompaloompa where you st, give us an update of your progress bro!

[fro69]

I put Thanks oompaloompa at the end of my post thanking him or her. Not as a signature. Oopps didn't want to mislead.



Fro69

[Intrepid026]

You may not be aware of it, but academic steroids are real, completely legal, and clinically proven. I have spent the last 10 months researching, purchasing, and experimenting with nearly every single nootropic available. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic) The effects have been profound. First, with the help of a little caffeine, I am able to study for the bar exam all day with zero mental fatigue. Second, I am able to read vast quantities of information only one time and spit it back with pinpoint precision. It is the closest thing to a photographic memory I have ever experienced. The information is just there on command when needed. When I take practice tests most days I have nearly perfect recall and my only mistakes are analysis.

You can do this for yourself.

The following nootropic regimen is unique in a few regards.

First, the effects of the supplements are synergistic because each of them has a different mechanism of action. If you randomly start taking nootropics, you are likely to take supplements that do not give you a synergistic effect. For instance, acetylcholine is the primary nerotransmitter related to information processing. Acetylcholinerase is responsible for the breakdown of acetylcholine. There are multiple supplements that will increase acetylcholine production, among them CDPCholine, alphaGPC, DMAE, centrophenoxine and Acetyl L Carnitine. If you double up, you simply hit a ceiling on the amount of acetylcholine available. Also, many nootropics such as huperzine A inhibit acetylcholinerase. Inhibiting acetylcholinerase has the same effect as producing more acetylcholine. There are so many supplements whose only mechanism of action is either to increase acetylcholine production or inhibit acetylcholinerase. If you take multiples of these supplements, you will hit a ceiling and will not get a synergistic effect. The synergistic effect of different mechanisms of action is very important to the following regimen.

Second, the effects are cumulative. Caffeine and amphetamines actually deplete your brain over time. They are short-term band-aid solutions that merely shift your brain into overdrive before wearing it out. The supplements here actually enhance the structure and function of your brain. They are proven to be more effective in three months than they are when you first start taking them.

Third, these supplements are non-toxic. They are safe for chronic use.

Forth, if you start with the first three supplements to get a taste of what is available, it is relatively cheap.

If you are just getting started I recommend three supplements.

1) Piracetam
2) CDPCholine
3) Either sulbutiamine or pyritinol

Piracetam is the time honored granddadday of all nootropics. This is a good introduction - http://www.ceri.com/noot.htm When discovered it shocked researchers by being completely non-toxic and also enhancing the performance of normal adults with no forms of mental impairment. Piracetam is proven to increase performance on multiple measures of intelligence. Its effects are cumulative.

It is recommended that you take a source of choline with piracetam. I recommend CDPCholine. Piracetam needs a source of choline because acetylcholine is the primary neurotransmitter related to information processing.

Sulbutiamine prevents mental fatigue. You can be as effective 8 hours in to your day as you are upon waking up. Pyritinol increases alertness, energy and the ability to concentrate. Pick either.

The blood-brain barrier is a threshold that any nutrient must cross in order to be used by your brain. Sulbutiamine is a synthesized version of thiamine that crosses the blood-brain barrier better than regular thiamine. After crossing the blood-brain barrier it is broken down into two parts normal thiamine. It is essentially a brain specific source of thiamine. Thiamine reserves play an important role in mental endurance.

Pyritinol is a neuroenhanced version of vitamin B6. It is one of the oldest and safest nootropics available. Like sulbutiamine, it is essentially a brain specific version of a B vitamin.

I also take the following supplements.

Picamilon
Aniracetam
Lion's Mane
Fish Oil
PhosphatidylSerine
Bacopa

Picamilion is a designer drug. GABA is a neurotransmitter that plays a role in reducing nervous excitement. However, taking GABA orally is ineffective because GABA cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Picamilion is a synthesis of niacin (vitamin B3) and GABA that was designed to cross the blood-brain barrier. After crossing the blood-brain barrier picamilion is broken down to niacin and GABA.

I especially like the effect of the three neuroenhanced B vitamins. Sulbutiamine is broken down to two thiamine parts (vitamin B1) after crossing the blood-brain barrier. Picamilon is broken down to niacin (vitamin B3) and GABA after it crosses the blood-brain barrier. Pyritinol is enhanced B6. The combination of brain specific B1, B3 and B6 is greater than any of them alone. They are highly synergistic.

Aniracetam is a supplement derived from piracetam. It is much more potent that piracetam and has entirely different types of effects. I take 750 mg of aniracetam and 4000 mg of piracetam daily. The effects are synergistic. Aniracetam is another supplement that you should probably research for yourself. Any supplement in the -racetam family is entirely non-toxic, has cumulative effects, and impacts almost every known measure of mental performance.

Lion's mane is a mushroom that has been used for centuries in the east to enhance the nervous system. Recently it has been discovered that this is because lion's mane increases the production of Nerve Growth Factor. NGF is responsible for determining the rate at which new brain cells are produced. A Nobel Prize was awarded for this discovery because no other substance is known to cross the blood-brain barrier and stimulate the production of NGF. Six months of supplementation with lion's mane is proven to produce a significant improvement in nearly every measure of mental function in people with dementia. In a literal sense, you have more brains when you supplement with lion's mane. NOBEL-FREAKING-PRIZE. Don't underestimate it.

Phosphatidylcholine is synthesized from uridine, choline, and DHA. Fish Oil has two omega-3 fatty acids: EPA and DHA. CDPCholine is broken down and converted into uridine and choline. Thus, phosphatidylcholine can be produced from supplementation with CDPcholine and fish oil. Both phosphatydlcholine and phosphatidylserine are essential components of every nerve cell membrane. Increasing the levels of phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylserine improve nearly every measure of mental performance.

Bacopa is a herbal supplement long used in India to enhance memory. It has unique chemicals that have a mechanism of action distinct from every other supplement in this regimen. Even alone it has a powerful effect on memory recall. It also repairs old and damaged neurons and dendrites. An interesting side effect is that it is as effective at reducing anxiety as prescription anti-anxiety medicines. This effect cannot be underestimated on stressful tests.

Finally, exercise is crucial. http://well.blogs.ny...ess-anxious/?em Exercise ensures that new neurons produced are able to perform under stress. It gives you a higher level of cognitive function naturally.

This is the holy grail of nootropic supplementation. If you go with the cheapest suppliers on the internet, you shouldn't be set back more than $100 a month. $3 a day is what it costs for limitless mental endurance and the best memory your brain is capable of having. You will surprise yourself. I promise you that you do not know how smart you really are.

As a side note, a doctor diagnosed me with ADHD and prescribed me Adderall. I think most ADHD diagnoses are bogus, but I still took Adderall because it was so effective at helping me to study. I still have a prescription for Adderall but I have stopped taking it. I literally experience almost no effect from it. With this regimen, it is as if I am always on Adderall already. Don't get me wrong. I WISH Adderall worked in conjunction with everything else. But the only effect it has on me now is making me obsessively organize and clean my room.

In addition to increasing performance on a variety of mental tasks, many of these supplements are proven effective at reversing alcohol related cognitive impairment. A year ago my short-term memory and ability to concentrate were impaired from all the drinking I did in law school. Today I can safely say that I am the smartest I have ever been. This will work for anybody.

Do your own research. You will only verify with I have told you.

If you start taking other supplements, the odds are you are only going to compound an effect already produced by one of the supplements on this list. They will not be synergistic. If you are really aggressive about nootropics with synergistic mechanisms of action, you can also look in to deprenyl, hydergine, lithium orotate and ashagandha. I take deprenyl and hydgergine off and on, but they are expensive enough that I do not include them in my usual nootropic stack. I caution against lithium orotate unless you know exactly what you're doing because it can be dangerous.

Good luck.

Note: Every person's brain biochemistry is different. There are a certain number of people who do not respond to Piracetam at all. The effect of any one of these supplements might be different for you. There is ultimately no substitute for researching and experimenting to find out what works for you.

This article is very interesting, however, I cannot find one online store (that doesn't look shady)to buy piracetam from, which makes this article now a moot point. It's one of the core ingredients being recommended for newbies (which I am) yet unavailable. Is there something I can use to replace it?

[owls]

Re: Sulbutiamine, Picamilon and Pyritinol

I actually had a very strong reaction to each of these supplements. The first time I took sulbutiamine my upper lip quivered for an hour. I actually had a physical reaction. The next day was my clearest thinking day up until that point. I also had a strong reaction to picamilon. Like sulbutiamine, my upper lip quivered but for a much shorter period. I almost think I had some sort of deficiency that these two supplements fixed.

The first time I took pyritinol I was still taking Vyvanse, an amphetamine. The combination of pyritinol and vyvanse gave me the shakes. I couldn't stop my hand from automatic twitching. My mind was racing, but it was good. It was like a very clean amphetamine high. It's like I was overdosing on amphetamines. The next day I did it again and simply felt energized. Now I don't even get a boost when I take the Vyvanse. It does next to nothing. Trying to take it is not only worthless, it's unnecessary.

My strong physical reactions to these three supplements leads me to believe I had some sort of B vitamin deficiency up until I started taking them. Now I simply have a clear head that lasts all day. The clarity of thought kicks in in the morning after I take my supplements. Until then I'm as groggy as the next guy.

do you take sulbutiamine everyday?

[Major Legend]

Troll Time

[Justchill]

Currently trying :

piracetam : 800mg twice

The first week I noticed it alot, but now it is a lot less. Still there is visual enhancement that stays, colors look brighter, I have better nightvision, everything looks sharper.. This is kinda weird..

Other effects: mood lift, talking is easier, concentration is better, also more energy (being able to do sports more)
Negative effects: small headaches, brainfog (not being able to think/concentrate)

Plan to add choline citrate to this.

I'm also taking fish oil, magnesium and a multi (now adam)

[The Likud Is Behind It]

oompaloompa where you st, give us an update of your progress bro!

I'm doing well. This newbie's guide is half hype/trolling. But it actually did seem that revolutionary to me at the time. I'm not doing anything specifically for a nootropic effect right now. I take bacopa, but for spiritual reasons, not for memory. I take sulbutiamine because I like the subtle effect it has on my morning cardio sometimes.

I need a chemistry/biology degree to understand the new things I want to understand.

First I was X now I am Y, look at MEEEEEEE That's not who I am. I could rewrite everything with lots of interesting stuff, but I think I could skip straight to writing a book if I were going to do that.

I had so much trouble concentrating when I wrote this. It was chronic life destruction type stress. I don't need anything now really.

Mostly I'm eating a lot of fruits and vegetables and meditating. My mind is clear. I don't have memory problems. I feel good.

[SatchFan]

Hello,
I just joined this site to respond to this thread. I have been looking into this, and have decided to give this a try. I live in the US and was looking up where I could get the 3 recommended items:
1) Piracetam
2) CDPCholine
3) Either sulbutiamine or pyritinol (I'm going with sulbutiamine)

I found some providers, but decided to give ebay a look while I was at it for these items. Now I'm not sure about the Piracetam. I have found 2 items that in the description say that they are more potent than Piracetam. Aniracetam and Oxiracetam.
Aniracetam is stated as being 8 times more potent than Piracetam and lasts longer.

The following is a copy/paste from the Aniracetam description:

Aniracetam is part of a family of “smart drugs” known as nootropics and racetams.

It is a fat-soluble analog of Piracetam and is up to 8 times more potent and is longer-lasting.

While it shares many of Piracetam's effects on the brain, it has two main unique advantages Piracetam does not have.

* Being fat soluble it has far better penetration into the brain through the blood brain barrier and is longer lasting.
* It is a more potent stimulator of the brain's Glutamate AMPA receptors.

It is reported to improve mental functions such as perception, memory, focus, attention, concentration, and creativity.

Aniracetam increases communication between the two hemispheres of the brain and stimulate AMPA and NMDA receptor sites
shown to be important in memory formation and concentration.

It has been reported to be the best in the Racetam family for anti-anxiety effects.

Since it is fat-soluble, Aniracetam should be taken with a meal or whole-fat milk for best absorption.
Aniracetam has been found to have very few side effects, and those it has are typically "few, mild, and transient."


Here is a copy/paste from the description for Oxiracetam:

Oxiracetam is member of the racetam family of “smart drugs” known as nootropics.

It is the closest derivative of piracetam and is used in the industry as the nootropic standard
(in other words, when new nootropics are designed, they are compared to oxiracetam).

Oxiracetam is similar to, but far stronger than piracetam and aniracetam.
It is reported to improve mental functions such as cognition, memory, creativity, motivation, attention, and concentration.

It is thought to work by stimulation of certain neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine and glutamate.

Oxiracetam appears to increase communication between the two hemispheres of the brain.
Oxiracetam is said to inhibit platelet aggregation which is supportive to healthy blood-flow.

Oxiracetam has been found to have very few side effects, and those it has are typically "few, mild, and transient."

Is this thought to be true or is this just Ebay type hype to sell a product? Wondering what you guys think about these being stronger and lasting longer etc? Any other thoughts for a noob on nootropics would be appreciated too! I'm not sure which one I should start with and for how long before starting the 2nd one etc.
Peace,
SatchFan

[owls]

thanks for not answering my question oompaloompa

Take them separately because the ALA and the ALCAR react together to form some kind of polymer like mush in your gut if you take them at the same time. Not good.

Source for this/more info?

i wonder if that poster realizes that a cup of water and the contents of ones gut are vastly different..?

[kb2]

I am very interested in the supplement regime you mentioned. I was all set to go out and buy the stuff, but further research brought up an issue about permanent increased permeability of the blood brain barrier when supplementing with piracetam. I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this.

[Gecko]

I am very interested in the supplement regime you mentioned. I was all set to go out and buy the stuff, but further research brought up an issue about permanent increased permeability of the blood brain barrier when supplementing with piracetam. I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this.

If you could point me in the direction of that research I may be able to formulate some thoughts, I haven't yet read anything indicating a permanent effect, intriguing idea though?

[m147]

When it comes to B vitamins, I have also read positive experiences regarding the consumption of Methylcobalamin, the only form of vitamin B12 that is used by the central nervous system.

Thanks for this. This was exactly what I was looking for. I purchased some now.

Np. Forgot to say though that methylcobalamin should be taken sublingually. If it is swallowed, it'll break down in the digestive track.

I found a source offering sublingual (lozenges) doses of Methylcobalamin; 1-10 mg, does anyone have a recommendation for daily intake?

[houstonguy76]

When it comes to B vitamins, I have also read positive experiences regarding the consumption of Methylcobalamin, the only form of vitamin B12 that is used by the central nervous system.

Thanks for this. This was exactly what I was looking for. I purchased some now.

Np. Forgot to say though that methylcobalamin should be taken sublingually. If it is swallowed, it'll break down in the digestive track.

I found a source offering sublingual (lozenges) doses of Methylcobalamin; 1-10 mg, does anyone have a recommendation for daily intake?

The recommendations I have read online are that a healthy person who his not deficient in B12 should supplement w/ 1 mg/daily of methyl whereas one who is deficient should use 5 mg/daily. I use the former and love it...many great effects of methyl

[m147]

When it comes to B vitamins, I have also read positive experiences regarding the consumption of Methylcobalamin, the only form of vitamin B12 that is used by the central nervous system.

Thanks for this. This was exactly what I was looking for. I purchased some now.

Great thread. From what I understand from this and other threads is that to get nootropic benefits from B vitamins high quantities are recommended; B1 (sulbutiamine 1g, over 7000% rda), B6 (pyritinol 400mg, 2000% rda), B3 (niacin/niacinamide 1g, over 5000% rda), B12 (methylcobalamin sub lingually 1mg, over 1000% rda) and inositol (4g, ?rda).

My question is; are the other B vitamins (B2/B5/B7/B9)or any other vitamins in high doses recommended/known to have benefits or are these the best to take in high quantities?

[Gecko]

Great thread. From what I understand from this and other threads is that to get nootropic benefits from B vitamins high quantities are recommended; B1 (sulbutiamine 1g, over 7000% rda), B6 (pyritinol 400mg, 2000% rda), B3 (niacin/niacinamide 1g, over 5000% rda), B12 (methylcobalamin sub lingually 1mg, over 1000% rda) and inositol (4g, ?rda).

My question is; are the other B vitamins (B2/B5/B7/B9)or any other vitamins in high doses recommended/known to have benefits or are these the best to take in high quantities?

I'd tend to be careful taking high doses of B vitamins, particularly pyritinol as I've read about cases of proprioceptive neuropathy resulting from chronic mega-dosing. As a similar example of risk as I haven't time to find my source currently, I'll refer you to this thread:

http://www.longecity...tinol-confused/

In which someone summarises a selection of cases of high-dose pyritinol related issues from this article- "Severe cholestatic hepatitis induced by pyritinol"


Article here - http://www.bmj.com/c...439/572.extract

"Case 1—A 23 year old female student complained of nausea, malaise, and jaundice one month after starting pyritinol 600 mg a day for "memory improvement." She had also been taking paracetamol with codeine sporadically for some years because of headache. Discontinuation of pyritinol led to rapid clinical improvement and to normalisation of liver function five months later.

Case 2—An 18 year old female student was prescribed nitrofurantoin 400 mg a day for cystitis and pyritinol 600 mg a day for "memory improvement." Five days later she was admitted to hospital with pruritus and jaundice of the skin and sclera. One year earlier she had been taking pyritinol at the same dose for 20 days with no known adverse effects. Improvement of her condition was observed after she stopped taking pyritinol, and liver function returned to normal five months later.

Case 3—A 27 year old woman presented at the out-patient clinic with jaundice and abnormal liver function tests. She had been taking oral contraceptives for three years and had started taking pyritinol 400 mg a day 25 days before presenting at the clinic. Liver function returned to normal more than six months after she stopped taking pyritinol.

Case 4—A 21 year old woman was admitted to hospital with malaise, vomiting, and fever of three days' duration and abnormal results for liver function tests. She had been taking pyritinol 600 mg a day for a month and was also taking nimesulide (one or two pills a month) for dysmenorrhoea. After she stopped taking pyritinol, liver function improved but did not return to normal for nine months.

Case 5—Ten days after starting to take pyritinol 600 mg a day, a 41 year old man was admitted to hospital with nausea, vomiting, jaundice, and abnormal liver function. Complete clinical and biochemical normalisation was seen two months after he stopped taking the drug.

Case 6—A 24 year old woman had nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, fever, and jaundice 14 days after starting to take pyritinol 400 mg a day for "memory improvement." She had also been taking erythromycin 500 mg every six hours during the previous eight days for a sore throat. Liver function returned to normal within a month. When she inadvertently took pyritinol again six months later, she developed the same symptoms and blood tests gave similar results. "


I'm no expert, but it's something I'd definitely want to do some more research into before considering a large dose.

[m147]

I'm no expert, but it's something I'd definitely want to do some more research into before considering a large dose.
[/quote]

cheers, I'll give the pyritinol a miss and look into the others

[wizard5000]

I've found NALT much better so far.

Chrono, how well have you found NALT to work? I just picked up a bottle of Jarrows off iherb last night. What dosage do you take?

Thanks.

I am sorry total newbie what do yo mean by NALT?

[tj1320]

"Second, I am able to read vast quantities of information only one time and spit it back with pinpoint precision. It is the closest thing to a photographic memory I have ever experienced. The information is just there on command when needed. When I take practice tests most days I have nearly perfect recall and my only mistakes are analysis.

You can do this for yourself."

This post is seriously misleading newcomers into believing that nootropics will make significant improvements to their cognitive abilities, when in fact many of us here have not experienced the slightest improvements. Furthermore, the improvements that he/she states here is definitely not something I've heard of in months of reading here.

As an entering 2L this fall, I am VERY interested in what the topic starter has said. However, this post makes me a little nervous. I have the money to spend on this stack, but I want to hear more positive things about it first. My girlfriend naturally has a near photographic memory and I would love to come even somewhat close to having one. (She is actually somewhat irritating when arguing because she remembers pretty much everything verbatim) I hate having to read things over and over again to memorize them, ESPECIALLY in law school when there is so much material to cover.

[nezxon]

"Second, I am able to read vast quantities of information only one time and spit it back with pinpoint precision. It is the closest thing to a photographic memory I have ever experienced. The information is just there on command when needed. When I take practice tests most days I have nearly perfect recall and my only mistakes are analysis.

You can do this for yourself."

This post is seriously misleading newcomers into believing that nootropics will make significant improvements to their cognitive abilities, when in fact many of us here have not experienced the slightest improvements. Furthermore, the improvements that he/she states here is definitely not something I've heard of in months of reading here.

As an entering 2L this fall, I am VERY interested in what the topic starter has said. However, this post makes me a little nervous. I have the money to spend on this stack, but I want to hear more positive things about it first. My girlfriend naturally has a near photographic memory and I would love to come even somewhat close to having one. (She is actually somewhat irritating when arguing because she remembers pretty much everything verbatim) I hate having to read things over and over again to memorize them, ESPECIALLY in law school when there is so much material to cover.

I'm not aware of any nootropic regimen that bestows instant genius. I'd say the effects are best described as slight or subtle. But I've yet to hear a reasonable argument against being slightly smarter. I guess it comes down to a Cost/Benefits Analysis. What's the minimum price/performance ratio you're willing to accept? (rhetorical)

[Major Legend]

I was wondering if the stack is still working for Neuromancer who said that it worked excellent, but didn't exactly mention what he was taking. I think this was an interesting thread.

I feel the whole nootropics thing has been a come and go internet fad, like pick-up once was.

I also feel a bit discouraged that the op has decided not to take nootropics anymore, does it mean it was all placebo afterall?

[wiserd]

Whatever people's opinions are about it's oral absorbability, I challenge you to take it (b12) orally and notice it as much as sublingually.

It's not an opinion. A few people, (probably including yourself) can't absorb b12 through their intestines. Usually this is due to low levels of intrinsic factor. But the majority of people can. Which is why it's problematic to generalize on your personal experience. Different people have different deficiencies to correct for. I've tried sublingual tablets and never noticed a particular benefit with them compared to simply swallowing a pill. I don't get a particular bump from pure B12 either way, though I regularly take a B Complex that does have some benefits for me, mostly because of the riboflavin but possibly due to synergy between the components of the complex.

[Mikael Llerena]

I read somewhere on here about a stack that was purported to give you photographic -or eidetic- memory...anyone know of a stack that they have seen for themselves, or have heard from others, that gives results similar to getting near-perfect memory??

[hippocampus]

there is no such thing, sorry.

[JChief]

I also feel a bit discouraged that the op has decided not to take nootropics anymore, does it mean it was all placebo afterall?

Well all I can say is that so far I love the effects I am getting from piracetam and other noots. It's definitely not placebo effect. The effects are unique and noticeable. I notice the little things though. I know I'm not just magically speaking more fluently and thinking more constructively. Would you care to mention why the OP decided to quit? Who cares anyway. It works and I am so glad I discovered them. Makes my life more enjoyable.

[sam7777]

Remember that the guy who started " piracetam non responders thread" Well He quit too. He went to Thailand to do kickboxing.

I do not see a life saving grace to be had with racetams, or the 1500 $ of supplements in my kitchen. Sure I will keep taking them, but just do not forget that your health being #@%R@#%R up is the only reason you think you can cheat nature in the first place by going after these substances.

Given enough time and "krutch" like help from these substances, perhaps in the lucky enlightened few, the body really does heal and repair itself back to normal. Hence, no more stuff needed. Most people just eat their-selves into oblivion with more french fries though.

[JChief]

Remember that the guy who started " piracetam non responders thread" Well He quit too. He went to Thailand to do kickboxing.

I do not see a life saving grace to be had with racetams, or the 1500 $ of supplements in my kitchen. Sure I will keep taking them, but just do not forget that your health being #@%R@#%R up is the only reason you think you can cheat nature in the first place by going after these substances.

Given enough time and "krutch" like help from these substances, perhaps in the lucky enlightened few, the body really does heal and repair itself back to normal. Hence, no more stuff needed. Most people just eat their-selves into oblivion with more french fries though.

The thing is my life was fine before starting nootropics. To me its just another nice addition to a health focused lifestyle. Exercise, diet, well-being. Supplements I try to narrow down to what works, has few side effects, and seems to be beneficial. Plus I love experimenting. Changing consciousness no matter how subtle can be fun and enlightening.

"Among the normal population are men and women with incredible memories, fast learners of language and music, and those with enhanced capabilities of all kinds. Something in their brains allows them to encode new information at lightning speed. We accept the fact that they must have some chemical system that is superior to ours or some neural circuitry that is more efficient. So why should we be upset if the same thing can be achieved with a pill? In some way, we were cheated by Mother Nature if we didn't get the superior neural system, so for us to cheat her back through our own inventiveness seems like a smart thing to do. In my opinion it is exactly what we should do." -- Prof. Michael Gazzaniga (PhD CalTech), Director of the SAGE Center for the Study of Mind at the University of California Santa Barbara

Edited by JChief, 11 November 2011 - 02:13 PM.

[chrono]

do not forget that your health being #@%R@#%R up is the only reason you think you can cheat nature in the first place by going after these substances.

Given enough time and "krutch" like help from these substances, perhaps in the lucky enlightened few, the body really does heal and repair itself back to normal.

The body/brain does not need to be broken, health ruined, to benefit from nootropics or supplements. The defining characteristic of the human species is its ability to create and use tools, and that's precisely what these are. We've been "cheating nature" for tens of thousands of years, and drawing that line at nootropics and supplements is pure, arbitrary ideology (albeit a popular one).

Frankly, I couldn't care less about some fanciful state of "normal" body/brain function, but only leading the most fulfilling life I can. Whether it's improving my ability to attend to the tasks I wish, or improving my chances of avoiding crippling ailments, there are tools here which improve my life materially.

Changing consciousness no matter how subtle can be fun and enlightening.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Trying a new nootropic is one of my favorite things to do, even if it doesn't end up being what I hoped.

[sam7777]

I do not actually think I disagree with your response Chrono. I do not adhere to dogmas, my opinion changes with science and findings, naturally. But, I have really seen, and personally felt the sinister effects of what happens when "drugs go wrong". And make no mistake, these are all drugs. Drug does not have a connotation to it, or at least I do not think that it should. But pharmacology, particularly neuropsychopharma deserves cautious respect.

Not everyone here is a case gone wrong like Isochroma, but it can definitely happen. The really big issue is when someone gets into the mentality of "take substance B indefinitely- get reaction A desired, do not give a damn bout how/why it works so long as I can get my fix". What makes this community here so good, is that many of the people ENJOY how/why the nootropics work, the learning, immersive process. It can be fun, satisfying, and a hobby in of itself.

I do ADVOCATE more "fanciful baseline health", because we live in a modern age of destructive, degenerative diseases. People will most, most certainly choose to take drugs to enhance life, no doubt about that. I am one of those people. But, I never want to let that become and excuse to totally cast off any prevention of disease, or proactive lifestyle choices. Once again, the cautious, curious nootropic enthusiast will most certainly hold a proactive attitude towards health prevention in terms of diseases like obesity and cardiovascular health. But, conversly the person who does not give a damn about the why/how may say well - Substance B for my "diauuubeetus" allows me to eat my favorite flavor of hot pocket. I do not buy into that pharmaceutical/food industry psuedo-scientific lie.

The other day my professor said that the permitting process we were studying allowed politicians to implement solutions based on scientific political/economic reasoning. He noted the oxymoronic nature, but said that it was preferable to non-scientifically deduced political reasoning.