42 replies to this topic

[TigerMask]

This is my potential regimen.. Not put into action yet, some stuff is still coming in the mail, and I'd like to take it slowly. Will update with more specifics later, just let me know if anything is contradicted or questionable.

TigerMask, from New Jersey
Age: 21
Weight: 136 - 142 pounds
Height: Between 6 and 6'1

1. I am underweight, and would like to put some weight on. I often have anxiety or social anxiety related nausea or stomach pain. Yes, stabbing stomach pain, which I have gone to the emergency room for, and was diagnosed as an anxiety disorder, not a stomach problem.

2. Poor diet, but it is often better for me to eat anything I can and have an appetite for rather than eating nothing at all. I'd like this to change. Sedentary lifestyle. I do not have a job. I would like this to change as well, but it is sometimes difficult for me to leave the house due to the social anxiety, and I am quite lazy, and often depressed. I realize some of this may change if I started exercising regularly. My goal is to run near-daily, practice Yoga, and do some sort of weight lifting.

3. I have general anxiety and social anxiety, and major depression. I've also struggled with opiate addiction for a few years. I sometimes take Subutex, thought I am no longer seeing the doctor, I will take it if the cravings are bad (I have some pills left from when I saw the doctor, but my supplies are dwindling). I have weird side effects such as my legs trembling and occasional trouble breathing.

Any questions, just ask.

Potential Regimen (Not put into action yet. I only take Magnesium and Calcium Citrate at the moment.)

Jarrow Zinc w/ Copper
LEF B-Complex (Not sure about this, chances are I'll have a bad reaction to something in this complex.)
Now B-1
Now B-3 (As Niacin)
Now B-6 (As Pyridoxine)
Now Inositol (Likely in the range of 2000 mg a day, but I will update this when I set the exact dosage.)
Now Ginger
Now D-3
Source Natural Magnesium Malate
Now Magnesium Citrate
Natures Way Calcium Citrate/Carbonate/Malate
Jarrow FamilE
Jarrow Carotenall
Chia Seeds
Now Bee Pollen
Now Acerola
Jarrow Rice Protein (to help gain weight especially when my appetite is low)
Puritans Pride Vitamin C with Bioflavonoids
Puritans Pride Potassium Citrate (Is supplemental Potassium needed? Will it cause deficiencies in other minerals?)
Now Selenium (as L-Selenomethionine)

I would like to keep it simple. I've tried many more advanced supplements, many of the amino acids associated with mental health, and these things often backfire or are not truly helpful.

Let me know what you think of this regimen. Any advice, criticism, or anything of that nature is welcome.

Thanks!

Edit: I may also add L-Glutamine in if I feel it benefits my mood.

I also get minor tremors. Likely anxiety related.

Edited by TigerMask, 09 January 2010 - 06:11 AM.

[nameless]

I don't think potassium supplements are worth it, as they contain only around 3% RDA levels. No need unless you are potassium deficient, and if that is the case, best to get it from food. I'm not sure of the dosages of some of the things you listed, but try to just take things you know you are low in from diet, around RDA-ish levels. The bee pollen looks sorta iffy (no idea what that's good for).

You can consider fish oil, which may help a little with depression (high EPA formulas). The ginger you listed may be worth trying for stomach issues, even if anxiety related. Magnesium isn't a bad idea, but are citrates a good idea for those with sensitive bellies? *wonders*

[TigerMask]

I don't think potassium supplements are worth it, as they contain only around 3% RDA levels. No need unless you are potassium deficient, and if that is the case, best to get it from food. I'm not sure of the dosages of some of the things you listed, but try to just take things you know you are low in from diet, around RDA-ish levels. The bee pollen looks sorta iffy (no idea what that's good for).

You can consider fish oil, which may help a little with depression (high EPA formulas). The ginger you listed may be worth trying for stomach issues, even if anxiety related. Magnesium isn't a bad idea, but are citrates a good idea for those with sensitive bellies? *wonders*

Hm. Not sure about that, but I'll be trying the Malate form soon. I'm not really sure about the Bee Pollen either, and Now doesn't list all the nutrients, though there are supposed to be quite a few. I suppose many of these so-called superfoods are iffy, probably would be a better idea to change the rest of my diet first.

I will give a good brand of fish oil a shot eventually.

Thanks for your response!

Edited by TigerMask, 09 January 2010 - 06:10 AM.

[TigerMask]

Something strange happened the other day. It was the afternoon. I was in a fine mood, ate a few Bee Pollen granules for the first time, and stirred some rice protein into skim milk. Within an hour, I was out of commission. I felt nauseous, dizzy, and quite sick. I also felt anxious and depressed and promptly took a 6 hour nap.

Maybe it has something to do with the high glutamate in the rice protein, or I'm allergic to Bee Pollen. Any opinions?

[TigerMask]

I'm searching for something to keep me away from opiates.

Is DLPA a safer alternative to Tyrosine for someone who is very thin with a fast metabolism? I know Tyrosine boosts the thyroid, which is something I DO NOT need. I also know DLPA turns into Tyrosine but perhaps it is self regulating, I don't really know.

I just don't want to boost my thyroid and wind up even more skinny and with an even faster metabolism and hyperthyroidism.

[kismet]

Maybe it has something to do with the high glutamate in the rice protein, or I'm allergic to Bee Pollen. Any opinions?

Yeah, drop the bee pollen. Unless you know of an evidence-based use.

Drop the Bs, Es, Cs, *tenes. Don't supplement more than 50mcg Se. Drop the zinc and copper, use cron-o-meter instead. Generally, drop all minerals and vitamins which you can get from diet, check using cron-o-meter.

Add K, replace inositol with IP6 depending on dietary intake. 


Improve diet don't waste money on supplements. (or at least supplement the smart way: *know* which stuff you *need* because of poor diet, don't just supplement randomly)
This is more important than supplements can ever be, considering that you're diet is probably hypocolaric *and* crappy.

Edited by kismet, 17 January 2010 - 08:54 PM.

[VespeneGas]

Maybe it has something to do with the high glutamate in the rice protein, or I'm allergic to Bee Pollen. Any opinions?

Yeah, drop the bee pollen. Unless you know of an evidence-based use.

Drop the Bs, Es, Cs, *tenes. Don't supplement more than 50mcg Se. Drop the zinc and copper, use cron-o-meter instead. Generally, drop all minerals and vitamins which you can get from diet, check using cron-o-meter.

Add K, replace inositol with IP6 depending on dietary intake.


Improve diet don't waste money on supplements. (or at least supplement the smart way: *know* which stuff you *need* because of poor diet, don't just supplement randomly)
This is more important than supplements can ever be, considering that you're diet is probably hypocolaric *and* crappy.

This. Targeted supplementation based on dietary analysis is the way to go. When I was on the shotgun approach I was getting too much copper and manganese, and not enough calcium or zinc. I'm surprised vitamin K2 didn't make it's way onto your list, I thought it was a requirement for membership on the forums. You might also consider adding fish oil, since delta 5 and delta 6 desaturase (the enzymes which convert plant w-3's into long chain w-3's) are really sluggish.

Oh, and kismet, he's taking the inositol for anxiety, not colon cancer prevention. I doubt IP6 would be an appropriate substitute in this department.

[kismet]

Oh, and kismet, he's taking the inositol for anxiety, not colon cancer prevention. I doubt IP6 would be an appropriate substitute in this department.

Well, then not a substitute, but it may be a good addition depending on dietary intakes of IP6 which often are surprisingly low (not reaching 1-2g as necessary). && it's not just colon cancer, that stuff is associated with chemoprevention of many cancers, reduced rates of osteporosis, kidney stones and vascular calcification; no definitive evidence, but it's a very safe component of a typical mediterranean diet.

Edited by kismet, 18 January 2010 - 01:05 PM.

[TigerMask]

Maybe it has something to do with the high glutamate in the rice protein, or I'm allergic to Bee Pollen. Any opinions?

Yeah, drop the bee pollen. Unless you know of an evidence-based use.

Drop the Bs, Es, Cs, *tenes. Don't supplement more than 50mcg Se. Drop the zinc and copper, use cron-o-meter instead. Generally, drop all minerals and vitamins which you can get from diet, check using cron-o-meter.

Add K, replace inositol with IP6 depending on dietary intake.


Improve diet don't waste money on supplements. (or at least supplement the smart way: *know* which stuff you *need* because of poor diet, don't just supplement randomly)
This is more important than supplements can ever be, considering that you're diet is probably hypocolaric *and* crappy.

This. Targeted supplementation based on dietary analysis is the way to go. When I was on the shotgun approach I was getting too much copper and manganese, and not enough calcium or zinc. I'm surprised vitamin K2 didn't make it's way onto your list, I thought it was a requirement for membership on the forums. You might also consider adding fish oil, since delta 5 and delta 6 desaturase (the enzymes which convert plant w-3's into long chain w-3's) are really sluggish.

Oh, and kismet, he's taking the inositol for anxiety, not colon cancer prevention. I doubt IP6 would be an appropriate substitute in this department.

First off, I appreciate both of your replies, I really do. I will make this more thorough in the future, including the full details of the regimen.

I will give the Cron-O-Meter a shot, in fact, I'm surprised I haven't already. My only concern is that my diet fluctuates daily. I mean, it typically sucks, but some days there might be a good meal thrown in there, or a few salads. I NEVER eat the same thing on consecutive days. Perhaps I just don't understand how the Cron works yet. I'll try it out. I think my goal should be to make a steady diet, that is relatively the same everyday, and relatively healthy.

I do have K-2, actually. Just started taking today. I will add fish oil eventually.

When I had blood taken, though the tests were not overly thorough, the only problem was very low vitamin D. I see you realized I was taking the Inositol for anxiety! Indeed, I am. I am not concerned about cancer-prevention at the moment, though I may wind up getting IP6 for my mother who has had tumors in the past.

I have been taking the Magnesium and Calcium for around a year now for tremors and night-time bruxism/teeth grinding.

Both of your approaches seems generally different from the rest of the forum. I like it, however. Smarter supplementation.

I do like the LEF B-Complex, the serving size is 3 caps. I take one. I generally hate any sort of Complex/Multi-Vitamin though. I think it's important to know about each thing you're supplementing and what it is doing, and you guys seem to share this belief.

I will be taking Subutex for a while, to help stay sane. It keeps me off stronger opiates, the lesser of two evils. I invite any advice there as well.

I'm having issues with my monitor, I may add more later.

Thanks again.

[TigerMask]

Just began using the CRON-o-Meter. My diet is awful, but I don't feel as terrible as I likely should from such a diet (Basically burritos, crackers, and other frozen foods with fruit juices). Currently taking Magnesium, Calcium, and D (which I am very deficient in based on a blood test). I'm looking for a natural nootropic, so I'll likely give CDP-Choline a try.

If you're not using the CRON-o-Meter, use it. Don't put it off like I did.

I have a question. I have Natrol lemon coated fish oil softgels (supposedly free of heavy metals, it was cheap) and they sort of have an odd fishy smell to them. I guess this is normal? Maybe it's just part of the lemon smell. My mom has a bottle of fish oil from Puritans Pride that I refuse to take, basically because it looks like crap, but it doesn't have this smell.

Edited by TigerMask, 27 March 2010 - 09:03 PM.

[nameless]

I have a question. I have Natrol lemon coated fish oil softgels (supposedly free of heavy metals, it was cheap) and they sort of have an odd fishy smell to them. I guess this is normal? Maybe it's just part of the lemon smell. My mom has a bottle of fish oil from Puritans Pride that I refuse to take, basically because it looks like crap, but it doesn't have this smell.

Do the rancidity test... break open a capsule in your mouth. If it's a little fishy, but not awful, it should still be fine.

If it tastes like sewer fish, spit it out and throw the bottle away.

I've used Natrol fish oil briefly in the past (they are cheap, as you mentioned), back when they were Meg-3, and they were fine. Not sure who they use for their fish oil now though.

Edited by nameless, 27 March 2010 - 09:47 PM.

[jazzcat]

You don't like multis or B complexes.
You have a fast metabolism.
You have a thin build.
The amino acids you've tried didn't seem to do much good.
You might want to research undermethylation (or high histame levels) because you seem to match some of the markers.

[TigerMask]

Thanks, I'll look into that today, jazzcat.

I didn't want the post above to sound like I have no intentions of improving my diet. I do, but it might take a little while; I've been eating like this my entire life.

I'm probably closer to 145 lbs. these days.

Edited by TigerMask, 28 March 2010 - 08:27 PM.

[TigerMask]

Jazzcat, a few years ago I would often take the antihistamine Benadryl (diphenhydramine) to get to sleep. I'm incredibly sensitive to it now, as if it gradually built up in my body. If take one now, I'm wrecked and experience odd side effects besides the obvious fatigue. This may be a strange question, but does this have anything to do with high histamine levels?

Anyway, Should I try Sam-E? If I'm an undermethylator, it could be useful for that as well as for depression and the general lethargy and lack of motivation I feel.

I can't take DLPA. The last time I took it, I started to feel really warm and began panicking. I also have a bad reaction to rice protein (http://www.iherb.com...owder/2494?at=0), which has a lot of glutamate. I definitely should of just bought whey, but maybe this reaction will reveal something. I just felt terrible, like I was going to puke. Like I had been poisoned. I tried less last time before a work out, and this was not so bad, but I'm still cautious with it.

I'm going to cut sugar out soon, as I've noticed how much it sabotages my mood. Seems like I have a bad reaction to anything that is stimulating (I'm okay on amphetamines, but I shake like a leaf).

Edited by TigerMask, 30 March 2010 - 09:05 AM.

[jazzcat]

Jazzcat, a few years ago I would often take the antihistamine Benadryl (diphenhydramine) to get to sleep. I'm incredibly sensitive to it now, as if it gradually built up in my body. If take one now, I'm wrecked and experience odd side effects besides the obvious fatigue. This may be a strange question, but does this have anything to do with high histamine levels?

Anyway, Should I try Sam-E? If I'm an undermethylator, it could be useful for that as well as for depression and the general lethargy and lack of motivation I feel.

I can't take DLPA. The last time I took it, I started to feel really warm and began panicking. I also have a bad reaction to rice protein (http://www.iherb.com...owder/2494?at=0), which has a lot of glutamate. I definitely should of just bought whey, but maybe this reaction will reveal something. I just felt terrible, like I was going to puke. Like I had been poisoned. I tried less last time before a work out, and this was not so bad, but I'm still cautious with it.

I'm going to cut sugar out soon, as I've noticed how much it sabotages my mood. Seems like I have a bad reaction to anything that is stimulating (I'm okay on amphetamines, but I shake like a leaf).

Yes, anti-histamines would help high histamine types; they sometimes take them for headaches because UMs or high H types can be prone to headaches. (Of course they might discover this benefit by chance.) I'm not sure why they don't work for you now but if you had been taking the wrong supps (like niacin and folic acid and some other things) you might have made your H levels higher.

The only amino you should take is SAMe or methionine. These aminos improve your UM and effect all neuros. So taking DLPA or 5HTP or any of the others that effect neuros doesn't work for UMs because they are causing an imbalance in neuros.

The reaction to DLPA sounds like it might have been converting to E because methylation effects the conversion of NE to E. The glutamate was probably just creating an imbalance.

If you try some SAMe and it seems to help then post again so I can tell you what else to take. You might also search for methionine and methylation here to see some of the other supps because I'm sure I've posted this before. But a good trial is 2 weeks of 400 mg twice a day away from food. If after two weeks you don't notice anything then you might not be an UM.

It helps to understand about undermethylation and high H levels if you do benefit from SAMe. A google search will give you some links for the symptoms that this type has. You should have about 5 of those symptoms to consider yourself this type. If you know the symptoms before you try SAMe that might help you recognize that you are feeling better in other ways besides mood and energy levels (like sleep, racing mind, sensitivity to pain, etc).

UMs are called sugar burners in Metabolic Typing; that means they burn sugar rapidly. A high carb or high sugar diet is not good for them because it can speed up their metabolism. Actually good carbs and small amounts of sugar may not terrible but its about the breakdown of the meal. They do better with slow digesting foods but not high protein. Any high carb or high sugar snacks, for example, would be bad for them. Snacks and meals should be about a balance of slow digesting protein and fat with some carbs (maybe a little sugar) for energy.

But Metabolic Typing can have some info for what foods and type of diet to eat. This info may be harder to find on the net; there are only a few books out on MT. Walcott's book is OK and I think Krystal's seems better but MT gets confusing with different labels used by different practioners or author. You're a sugar burner and a protein type and slow oxidizer and possibly something else. But if you are an UM then you might start with the supps first and then focus more on the diet and foods to eat.

Of course its possible that there could be some other reason why sugar messes with your mood. But SAMe is a source of sulfur and if you are an UM then you have a sulfur deficiency. Sulfur is needed to make insulin.

[TigerMask]

I took a blood test last year, perhaps this will help. I will find it later today. The odd thing is, I seem to have more symptoms of overmethylation: social isolation, academic underachievement, high anxiety, even somewhat heavy body hair (my hair grows fast). Very rarely do I get headaches, and it's always related to shoulder issues like when I'm hunched over a computer for way too long. But we'll see, I'm keeping an open mind. I'll order a small supply of Sam-E (Dr's Best or Jarrow) later today, if there is still suspicion of undermethylation.

I may add more later, I can't really type too much at the moment. Thanks for your help, jazzcat.

http://images.icanha...44903534469.jpg

[madanthony]

I took a blood test last year, perhaps this will help. I will find it later today. The odd thing is, I seem to have more symptoms of overmethylation: social isolation, academic underachievement, high anxiety, even somewhat heavy body hair (my hair grows fast). Very rarely do I get headaches, and it's always related to shoulder issues like when I'm hunched over a computer for way too long. But we'll see, I'm keeping an open mind. I'll order a small supply of Sam-E (Dr's Best or Jarrow) later today, if there is still suspicion of undermethylation.

I may add more later, I can't really type too much at the moment. Thanks for your help, jazzcat.

http://images.icanha...44903534469.jpg

The list of symptoms for under/over methylators are only suggestive of which type you are. For instance if you have a COMT+/+ genotype you will not break down dopamine very fast and so may be high dopamine (regardless of your methylation status), even while you are an undermethylator and thus low serotonin. I have anxiety issues and I am an undermethylator with low serotonin and normal dopamine. (I do not know how this affects anxiety issues, it's just how I am). I did not have anxiety issues until I was 51, so there is a hormonal dimension. I read that estrogen helps women MAKE choline, which can in fact be used for methylation, so maybe that is the reason. Low methylators DO WANT B vitamins. I believe B vitamins should never be taken separately as they all work together. Check this website for an excellent pictorial of the methyl cycle and ensuing discussion: http://www.heartfixe...trigenomics.htm

If you are an undermethylator and you have high homocysteine (you can order a test online for $60),
then you have one or more biochemical pathways blocked and need these supplements:
(1) to drain away hcy you need p5p (active B6)
(2) to recycle it to form more SAM you need methylcobalamine (active B12) and l-methylfolate (active folate)
or (3) to recycle it to form more SAM you need choline and/or betaine

One or more of these paths also needs B2. I forget where that goes.

You can't bypass and ignore the B12 pathway because your brain needs B12 (don't know why).
You can't ignore the B6 pathway, or your homocysteine levels will continue to rise and it will lead to heart disease, stroke, brain fog, many problems.
Studies on homocysteine have shown that many people (a third?) with elevated homocysteine cannot ignore the betaine pathway or they will never lower their homocysteine (not sure why as that just recycles it).

This website does not cover the transamination pathway and not sure how that figures in...it may be that by spinning the homocysteine around an extra time or two that gives some time for a slower transamination pathway to clear some of it...or something...

If you are an undermethylator and you have low or nonexistent homocysteine (you can order a test online for $60), you have a problem draining too much homocysteine away down the B6 pathway. heartfixers says you need to limit methionine input then and supplement the methylcobalamine, l-methylfolate, and betaine parthways to get as much recycle as you can out of the methionine you eat (I know nothing about this -- don't have this problem).

I guess if you are an undermethylator and your homocysteine is right on the money (6.3) then you probably are just not eating enough methionine.

I know that B vitamins are heavily involved in mood. Every enzyme to metabolize glucose uses a B vitamin and the brain only uses glucose for energy...it is the highest consumer of glucose in fact. Eating emty calories like crackers consumes B vitamins to metabolize them w/o replacing them. Since they are water soluble, I think pretty much everyone in our fast food society should be supplementing with B vitamins (unless you make and only eat your own stone ground 100% whole wheat bread, which you'll note entrire grocery stores contain only 1 single loaf of an any given day).

For anxiety I take hormone replacement. But perhaps I have just talked myself into a choline trial...

[TigerMask]

I'm so tired of feeling this way. Feeling incredibly empty and like my potential is limited by my social anxiety and lack of energy/motivation. I know people my age that are going to great colleges and I feel like that should be me, for what it's worth. I'm so frustrated because I think I am a lot better than this. I'm not terrible unhappy. I just feel like life is dull.

Really need some motivation, that was the main factor in my past drug/opiate abuse. I notice that the more energy I have, the less social apprehension I have.

1. I have to improve my diet. I think later in life I will have a vegetarian/vegan diet, but for now a good carnivorous diet will have to do. This is hard because I live with my Mom and she has a very poor diet as well. It's up to her what we buy, in the end. I don't know how to cook. I will work on this because I am starting to think my poor diet is a big factor in many of my issues. This is more important than any supplement.

2. I have to start getting out more. Even if it's just going to the library. I have to do this and I have to do it everyday. The more I get out, the better I feel.

3. Need to have a regular time that I go to sleep and wake up. I go to sleep at a different time every night and wake up in the afternoon. This needs to change.

Despite the fact that I feel stuck in many of these bad habits, they can be changed. I'm still interested in any supplement recommendations.

[jazzcat]

I think you should be able to feel better using the right nutritional supplements but I can't emphasize this enough that you have to find some type of doctor or professional to help you. You will continue to struggle if you to try to do this alone for different reasons (lack of knowledge of nutrition, lack of proper lab tests, lack of motivation, lack of focus, etc).

And finding the right doctor can take time. It's a lot more frustrating when you don't have any help or support. There's plenty of well-intentioned but not so qualified people and some self-serving sham artists that just want your money.

If you get the right doc and get a good supp regimen and start making improvements you might be able to get your mother to change her eating habits. If you can't find someone locally consider some options / resources online. You can work with some websites (I think wrongdiagnosis.com has some services online) perhaps, or someone who does maybe hair analysis (Larry Wilson MD has lots of experience with HTMA) or use a helpful and accomodating local GP to do some lab work for you and make do with what you have now until you can get something better lined up.

It's a process that will take time. You might have to try different doctors to find the best health care for you.

But I think you can feel better if you invest in your well being and health by commiting to working with a qualified professional. It will be expensive but don't you think you're worth it? Not working with a professional is like telling yourself you don't deserve to be healthy. Just start with a commitment to yourself to get professional help.

[TigerMask]

I think you should be able to feel better using the right nutritional supplements but I can't emphasize this enough that you have to find some type of doctor or professional to help you. You will continue to struggle if you to try to do this alone for different reasons (lack of knowledge of nutrition, lack of proper lab tests, lack of motivation, lack of focus, etc).

And finding the right doctor can take time. It's a lot more frustrating when you don't have any help or support. There's plenty of well-intentioned but not so qualified people and some self-serving sham artists that just want your money.

If you get the right doc and get a good supp regimen and start making improvements you might be able to get your mother to change her eating habits. If you can't find someone locally consider some options / resources online. You can work with some websites (I think wrongdiagnosis.com has some services online) perhaps, or someone who does maybe hair analysis (Larry Wilson MD has lots of experience with HTMA) or use a helpful and accomodating local GP to do some lab work for you and make do with what you have now until you can get something better lined up.

It's a process that will take time. You might have to try different doctors to find the best health care for you.

But I think you can feel better if you invest in your well being and health by commiting to working with a qualified professional. It will be expensive but don't you think you're worth it? Not working with a professional is like telling yourself you don't deserve to be healthy. Just start with a commitment to yourself to get professional help.

Your response is helpful jazzcat, and I appreciate it as I do all your great comments. The fact is, I have been through the professional help gauntlet. I have sought help for social anxiety, anxiety, depression, and opiate addiction.

Anyway, I've had more professional help than I feel comfortable admitting publicly in front of the Imminst community. This has not helped. In the past, my family begged me to get help (since I was around 15) and saw that the benefits were nonexistent. I feel like they have learned to live with how I am and realize that professional help is not as helpful as they expected. I have encountered some quackery which has turned me off. One doctor wanted to put me on lithium without occasional blood tests. I refused. Another doctor verbally attacked me in front of my mother, provoking me into a verbal fight.

Still, I'd be interested in a doctor with knowledge of supplements or at least nutrition, as well as depression and anxiety. I'd jump at the chance to be a patient of this kind of doctor. Unfortunately, this kind of doctor is hard to find in this area. If someone can recommend a doctor like this or any kind of doctor who has helped you in southern or central New Jersey, northern Delaware, or Philadelphia/Eastern PA, please send me a message. I think regular blood tests would be a great thing for me, and be useful in creating a good supplements regimen. Last blood test only indicated a Vit D deficiency but it didn't test for minerals or even for all the vitamins. B12, calcium, and magnesium were in the upper ranges.

Opiates have helped in the short term. I've never been psychically addicted and seeking out Subutex/Suboxone treatment was essentially me seeking an alternative to the mental peace that full opiate agonists give me (like Oxycodone or Hydrocodone.) I'd do everything to avoid benzo addiction (the only physical addiction I've dealt with), but if I had the opportunity to legally become an opiate addict (you know what I mean, I'm sure), I wouldn't have to think about it. I'd do it. I see the flaws in this statement, but until recently, I was kindest and most helpful when high. Now (and possibly due an increase in tolerance from legally the Sub), I am argumentative with opiate usage. 40 mg Oxycodone does nothing for me (even when abstaining from Subutex for a few days). I have decided to quit the Subutex, for fear of opiate receptor down-regulation and the myriad side effects. I've been on it for 3 months, and I'm done with it. I would like to say I'm done with opiates altogether, but I can't say this for sure. In any case, my usage will be sporadic as it always has been.

I am thinking about giving Mucuna a try (aware of the dangers and still reading up on it), unless someone wants to talk me out of it. Also at my disposal are large supplies of Wellbutrin and Prozac in starting doses. A psychiatrist may have to be looked for, at least to begin the process of finding a good doctor. Will continue to search for information on doctors in my area.

I really should be more active. I think this will help some of my issues.

Thanks for putting up with me,
TigerMask

[TigerMask]

Actually, I don't plan on taking Mucuna. Too dangerous.

[TigerMask]

Any reports on the long term effetiveness of l-theanine? Any down-regulation? Is taking it every day consistently more helpful than taking it as-needed?

[TigerMask]

I started Sam-E, 200 mg today. I think I took it too close to a meal, so perhaps I will try 400 mg in the morning tomorrow. Also taking magnesium malate, calcium in many forms, D3, K2.

May start taking 300 mg l-theanine at night before bed consistently. Makes me feel more upbeat upon waking in the morning.

Anyone still taking Sam-E?

[TigerMask]

Took 3500 mg Inositol 3 or 4 hours ago. I'd like to experiment more with this one. I've taken it in the past in dosages 3000 - 4000 mg. Initially, it was almost euphoric. It leveled off but it still may be useful. Another supplement I find almost euphoric is Taurine. Taurine has a very special effect on me, I will discuss this more later. Like a breath of fresh air feeling. Sadly, after an hour or so this goes away and I am left sedated and lazy. Need to experiment with this one more, too.

One time a few years ago, I took Taurine, Ashwagandha, and a few Kava caps and I recall this being one of my better days. Opened doors for old ladies and everything. There may have been another ingredient, but I'm not sure. Ashwagandha's positive effects could possibly be from its effects on Acetyl Choline inhibition, which is something I should look into.

Ash feels similar to Taurine to me, which also has an effect on acetyl choline levels. This is just something I noticed. It is possibly the acetyl choline effects that give Taurine and Ash their pleasurable effects for me. I think there may be a link here which may help us understand how my brain works, and what sort of supplements work best for it. I do have some choline bitartate.

Just trying to put some ideas together.

I really think the proper tests are important so I know what I'm really dealing with here. In my case, since I'm so sensitive to many supplements, this might be the best idea. It's up to me to find a doctor and ask for the tests, though. My GP has done blood tests for me in the past, but they don't test for everything. I did find out I have a Vitamin D deficiency from these tests.


NOTE: Please note, when I say "euphoric," in no way do I mean any sort of intense euphoria. Just a somewhat pleasurable feeling.

[TigerMask]

I AM BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT. I try not to come off as one. So any advice I give, take it with a grain of salt, and always be safe and careful.

Okay, just a few thoughts:

Today is going to be find me a doctor day. Being Friday, some might be closed, but at least I'll gather a list of Orthomolecular doctors. Or any other type of doctor that will look into nutritional deficiencies as a catalyst for my anxiety/depression issues. I think a combination of treatments is necessary. Which may mean (hopefully minimal) medication along with supplements. And not random supplements. Supplements that are suited to me and my nutritional needs.

Anyone new to this, listen to what I'm saying. DON'T throw a bunch of random supplements at your problems. If you try a supplement and find it really works for you, that's great, use it. Always do some research on any supplement you're taking. Don't start 15 random new supplements all at the same time and expect good results. One at a time. Trial and error. Safety first. Keep a journal of what you take and when and how it effects you. I don't want to sound like a dick here and many of you probably already know this stuff. It's just that I wasted a lot of money thinking MORE was better. Then I realized, once you find a few supplements that work for you, it's so much better. You should know the individual effects of each supplement you take. I've never really spoken to him, but ask guys like Lufega (who has a wonderfully thought out regimen). There are a bunch of people who were using a lot of supplements and then realized they were taking way too many. Many people will also tell you that getting tests done to find any nutritional deficiencies is the best way. And I agree with that.

I still only take magnesium and calcium and D3. That's all I take on a daily basis. I have boxes full of vitamin bottles, vitamins that I don't use. Trial and error.

For Sleep
The following are supplements I've tried over the years and find I like, and I consider them pretty safe for me, based on research and personal experience. Only occasionally, If I'm having a lot of trouble sleeping, I've been taking these:
B6 - 15 mg (I actually remembered some of my dreams for once!)
Taurine - 850 mg
Inositol - 2000 or 2500 mg (Start with a lower dose if you try this)
Theanine - 300 mg
Niacinamide - 500 mg
Glutamine - 450 mg (I read something about this cross tolerating with Taurine. Huh? Can anyone explain this?)

Right before I took this, I couldn't really hold a good conversation, I was in a negative mood and uptight. Right away, I felt better. I bite through all the capsules to get them to absorb faster. I'm guessing that immediate effect was from the Taurine. Taurine always works within a few minutes for me. Then I get a really great mood lift for like 30 minutes. I'm pretty sure Theanine takes longer to work (like an hour). I wrote "I feel great! More talkative/confident" in my journal. Then I fell asleep.

Next thing I want to look into is Zinc. I'd like to figure out my levels of Zinc and Copper. A lot of my social issues (like the feelings I get when I'm in a public place), read like copper deficiency. However, I really don't think it's safe to supplement with these before I figure out what my levels are. I've supplemented JUST Zinc (picolinate) in the past and nothing terrible happened, so MAYBE I'll try it again (before I get more tests).

Do I need a doctor to order tests for me? Is there a RELIABLE online test? How do I go about getting specific tests from a doctor? I'd even like to get a hormone test done, but I feel like I'd have a hard time explaining this to my GP. If you know the answers to these questions, I'd be really appreciative.

Edited by TigerMask, 16 April 2010 - 10:21 AM.

[nameless]

Do I need a doctor to order tests for me? Is there a RELIABLE online test? How do I go about getting specific tests from a doctor? I'd even like to get a hormone test done, but I feel like I'd have a hard time explaining this to my GP. If you know the answers to these questions, I'd be really appreciative.

A doctor can order those tests for you, but finding one that will may be another matter. I'll assume you have insurance, as otherwise it'd get expensive. I expect LEF does offer most of the types of tests you want, but you'd have to pay all out of pocket.

Zinc + copper is tricky to test -- actually, all minerals seem to be hard to test for. Big deficiencies or if you are way overboard may show up though. Except for maybe copper... copper may be high due to inflammation, not excess copper intake.

You can ask for a zinc RBC, copper serum, and do a zinc taste test, which may tell you if you some sort of basic status there. A magnesium RBC may be worth getting too. For other vitamins, they can be tested, but you'll need to find a very agreeable doctor to do them. Cronometer is worth doing too, to figure out nutritional intake.

Duke had a list of basic tests most people should get done, posted here somewhere too. Maybe try to squeeze some of those in if you can.

For a hormone panel, you may need to see an endocrinologist. Maybe explain fatigue or other symptoms (sorry, not sure what all your symptoms are as I haven't read this full thread yet), and ask to get some hormones checked out?

One tip when dealing with doctors that I have found helpful -- you can try to steer doctors towards testing or considering certain health problems, but they tend to dislike it if you try to discuss a million supplements with them, or suggest diseases to test for (unless you have symptoms).

Sometimes I've found it easier to spread the tests out among several doctors, just so when you ask doc for a couple of tests, it seems reasonable. If you ask a doctor for 10+ tests, he/she'll probably just give you a weird look and change the subject.

[TigerMask]

You're right. That would seem odd to many doctors. Though, I'm sure an orthomolecular doctor would be willing to run all these tests. If it's in my price range, this is likely the next kind of doctor I will be going for. I'd also be interested a psychiatrist familiar with treatments like low dose naltrexone or other cutting-edge treatments. I actually came into contact with one a long time ago. He said he would recommend LDN to my regular doctor, and he seemed fairly progressive. I'm disappointed that I forget his name.

I've had magnesium tested. It was a blood test, I'm not sure which type. Does this sound like an RBC test? Magnesium was in the normal range, but high. I had been supplementing with it for a while already. Calcium was the same.

Thanks for your advice. I really don't know anything about tests, but your post helped a lot.

I really don't want to supplement random things, like I said. But as you said, minerals seem to be tough to detect, so there may have to be some trial-and-error. I just want to be safe and not cause any more problems.

There's still so much to learn.

[nameless]

I've had magnesium tested. It was a blood test, I'm not sure which type. Does this sound like an RBC test? Magnesium was in the normal range, but high. I had been supplementing with it for a while already. Calcium was the same.

No way to know without looking at the test results. It could have been mag serum or mag RBC. RBC is more accurate (or so I've read), although even there it's not 100% accurate.

Cronometer may be the best way to figure out mag/calcium and other mineral intakes.

There are other mag tests, like mag intracellular (which nobody seems to offer) and mag loading tests, but those are a pain to do (24 hr urine)... and not sure if every lab even does that.

The basic stuff I expect any good family doc to do at least once (VAP lipoprotein, hs-c reactive protein, glycated hemoglobin, CBC, vitamin D) + maybe you can convince him/her to throw in a mineral or two, if you can explain a good reason to test. Perhaps just saying you've been supplementing mag/zinc or whatever and want to make sure you aren't killing yourself would be a good enough reason. Or doc will just say stop taking those things and not give the tests... depends a lot on the doctor.

If you complain of fatigue & say thyroid disease runs in your family, you can maybe get thyroid stuff tested. But ask for TSH, free T3, free T4 and antibodies. Testosterone and other hormone things may be in endo territory, like I mentioned before.

Some docs act like each blood test comes out of their own pocket and won't test for anything, while I've had others who more or less test for whatever I ask (within reason). For that type, I go with a list written down with what I want tested and just hand the list to doc. Seems less weird for me that way, so I don't have to rattle out 6+ tests -- it's all written down for her, and all she has to do is copy the tests down.

Edited by nameless, 18 April 2010 - 05:46 PM.

[TigerMask]

I am in contact with an LDN-prescribing doctor. I'm going to try it despite the fact that there is little information published on its effectiveness in social anxiety disorder. I also have depression that does not respond to typical medicines, so hopefully this will help. Any thoughts?

If the LDN does not work, I suppose I will try MAOIs next. That is, if I can find a willing doctor.

Since I've written here last, I've been going through (legally prescribed) Subutex withdrawal. It has been awful. Perhaps the worst part is the opiate cravings - they are more extreme than ever. I see them as the only cure for my social anxiety, my depression, and just about anything else that ails me. Hopefully, once the withdrawal symptoms get a little better, I can work on changing this idea and working on more healthy ways to deal with my ailments.

I'm starting to think that the lethargy/depression and social anxiety are tied together more than I ever suspected. It's hard to explain, though probably typical. If one symptom gets better, another symptom comes along and makes it very difficult to maintain a normal social life.

I'll work on adding some supplements in once I get situated. I still have to reorder magnesium (malate) - I'm really missing it.



By the way, I hope this thread still belongs here. If not, I'd have no issues with moving it to some off-topic part of the ImmInst forums. It is still going to contain plenty of supplement/LDN talk, but a few off-topic rants may be present as well.

[bacopa]

Oh, and kismet, he's taking the inositol for anxiety, not colon cancer prevention. I doubt IP6 would be an appropriate substitute in this department.

Well, then not a substitute, but it may be a good addition depending on dietary intakes of IP6 which often are surprisingly low (not reaching 1-2g as necessary). && it's not just colon cancer, that stuff is associated with chemoprevention of many cancers, reduced rates of osteporosis, kidney stones and vascular calcification; no definitive evidence, but it's a very safe component of a typical mediterranean diet.

what about regular old inositol for chemopreventative purposes, especially in studies of former smokers.

Are there strong studies showing the IP6 form is really chemopreventative? I'll look for some myself,

thanks