47 replies to this topic

[pmcglothin]

This song is the big 8's new theme song, at least temporarily.

[/quote]

Thanks for sharing this. It is exciting to see a popular music group include lyrics in a song that are relevant to the the longevity movement

[e Volution]

Thats another good thing to want that fits in the list of goals on line 7 there. We all have basic drives yes. Im not sure if everybody else agrees, but it seems to me that Maslows Hierarchy of needs sums that angle on it up pretty well.

It seems that sometimes so many people are so busy trying to keep the needs in the bottom parts of the pyramid going that they are never able to focus on moving on or setting sights on the big 8. The big 8 is more like that whole pyramid, from the very top, to the very bottom.

I really like this... A great perspective and very concise, hadn't seen it before, thank you.

[brokenportal]

Around here its a staple of pretty much every psycology class. A psycology major that I know told me that he didnt know what this was the other day too. I thought everybody knew.

Im not sure if we could say its a perfect concept, but its an excellent concept. I think in context of it a lot. For example, if I just feel like I cant focus on this cause, or I feel like I cant enjoy myself outdoors or something, I might think about it and notice that Im extra broke and so since I dont have that level on my heirarchy met I cant experience the higher levels.

Although these things all fit into these 8 categories, it seems that a lot of people dont focus on the big picture, the 8, because they are still too distracted trying to fill those other levels.

[JJN]

Lol, forgive me, I've been away for a while, and am back, and feel chatty. I'm being only 1/2 facetious, but I see in me the desire to smoke too much, drink too much, stay out late at night too much.... and be able to get away with it. for a very long time. Not sure where that fits.

Jeff

[brokenportal]

Lol, forgive me, I've been away for a while, and am back, and feel chatty. I'm being only 1/2 facetious, but I see in me the desire to smoke too much, drink too much, stay out late at night too much.... and be able to get away with it. for a very long time. Not sure where that fits.

Jeff

They fit right in there:

The big 8, to know:

- *the nature of existence, ie infinity, conciousness, particle phyisics, etc..
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy

They are,
-a form of pleasure
and
-the fulfillment of a goal

[JJN]

Lol, forgive me, I've been away for a while, and am back, and feel chatty. I'm being only 1/2 facetious, but I see in me the desire to smoke too much, drink too much, stay out late at night too much.... and be able to get away with it. for a very long time. Not sure where that fits.

Jeff

They fit right in there:

The big 8, to know:

- *the nature of existence, ie infinity, conciousness, particle phyisics, etc..
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy

They are,
-a form of pleasure
and
-the fulfillment of a goal

Ok ok, I see. I was just being silly. I have been thinking about why you are thinking about this, and it is a very valid theme. Some who are content to live out a 'normal' lifespan will bring up the topic that their life was 'complete'. You are trying to point out that there may be more.

Obviously, some of these items will not apply to everybody, so it is more of an all-encompassing list of what 'may be'. For me, I'm pretty sure that points 2 and 8 don't really apply, at least as far as the person I am now. I am very settled on gods being illusory beliefs, flights of fancy; and fallacy is something that we must experience from time to time to grow. I do appreciate you bringing it up.

Jeff

Edited by JJN, 01 October 2010 - 04:54 AM.

[brokenportal]

Ok ok, I see. I was just being silly.

Those are valid things. It can be really fun to do those things. In fact, those used to be some of my favorite things to do. Maybe Ill be able to get back to them some day.

I have been thinking about why you are thinking about this, and it is a very valid theme. Some who are content to live out a 'normal' lifespan will bring up the topic that their life was 'complete'. You are trying to point out that there may be more.

Right, and not only that, but this list is trying to point out EVERYTHING. The point of it is to work to try to cover everything. Many people who think they can grasp an (limited) amount of things that they can have all in one life time think that that is all that there is to life. They think that that is what comprises a life that takes full advantage of the chance given to them. They think that if by the time they are on their death bed, that if they have done x amount of things that that will be enough. This list is to try to jostle their thinking in to realizing that there is much much more. Its here to try to illuminate for them that we are nothing but a tiny unnoticeable speck of illumination here, or light, in this seemingly infinite sea of vast dynamic endless incredible mystery, and that we havent even, begun, to scratch the surface of the surface of what it means to exist yet. Our lives, compared to what we could have are like those of a gopher who lives in a hole and gets eaten the first time he sticks his head out of the hole, or a fruit fly that is born on your banana peel and dies on your window sill. I think that contemplating the chance to have this list and what that means for a person is a fundamental piece of what it means to harness existence for what it is truly worth. By (hopefully) getting more people to think about this, I hope to encourage more people to want them, and hence long for more time, and hence want indefinite life extension.

Obviously, some of these items will not apply to everybody, so it is more of an all-encompassing list of what 'may be'.

The big 8 are opportunities that can better a persons existence if they choose to indulge them. Its a lot like how certain flavors can better our experience of life if we indulge them. Like being in a candy store, lets say we've never had chocolate. We dont have to eat the chocolate, but its one of the things that is there for us.

For me, I'm pretty sure that ponts 2 and 8 don't really apply, at least as far as the person I am now.

#2 applies to you, for sure. Unless your omnipotent, a cosmonaut from the future, or you have super intelligence, super computers with yottaflops, and a space ship with warp drive that your not telling us about, if so then I retract that statement.

I am very settled on gods being illusory beliefs, flights of fancy; and fallacy is something that we must experience from time to time to grow.

We need to experience it from time to time in order to help us spot and eliminate it from out thinking, sure, but we dont need it like we dont need a tumor in the head.

I do appreciate you bringing it up.

Thanks, I do appreciate you helping to keep the discussion moving because discussion is one of the key ways that we all learn. I feel like I get dumber when I dont engage good discussion, and that I get smarter when I assimilate more and more perspectives and insights from people like you.

Edited by brokenportal, 01 October 2010 - 05:14 AM.

[JJN]

I am going to hold tight to my comments about points 2 and 8, for me anyways. I am settled on my thoughts about gods, and it won't hold any interest in my wanting to live longer than 'normal'. For those who are agnostic it may be a valid point. Others who are believers, would not want to know any different than what they believe now, and it would not hold interest for them either, and this may actually be a point of contention for them, and make them want to not live longer.

In regards to fallacy, one of the definitions for it is deception, or lies. There are other fallacies, sometimes in logic, and reasoning, and that's probably what you are really talking about, and I understand it. For deceptions, we lie to ourselves on occasion about what we can and cannot do, sometimes to our gain and sometimes to our detriment. We lie to others as part of social navigation. Can, or should we do completely without it? I posit no.

I am playing devil's advocate now: If you were to ask psychologists and sociologists what it means to be a full spectrum human, I am sure they would include fallacies as part of the mix.

Life is gritty and visceral, as well as sometimes clean and rewarding. Personally I'm not looking for any sort of utopian future. This is getting off topic about 'The big 8', but it is a huge leap from what it means to be a full spectrum human right now, to becoming transhumanst. I really hope that in the future there will still be room for full spectrum humans as we know ourselves now, maybe perhaps with some enhancements. To lose that in the future really turns me off in regards to transhumanism.

Jeff

[JJN]

Eric, if I may use the familiar,

I really am not trying to shut you down. I was once a very idealistic person. I think you can reach those who are so with your views, and there are many. I am still idealistic in many ways, and have not become cynical. I am positive and far-thinking about the future.

What future should we build, and why, and how? It will have many facets. Perhaps we will have splinter cultures, transhumanists, VR arcologies, star colonists and so on. The possibilities are vast.

What we are faced with for now, is what we have always been. To predict the future is to understand where we were, and are now.

It is the transition, the change, that we may focus on for now. Change is difficult, but it is a'coming. There are many, though, and myself included, who want to hew to some old ways. It is difficult to get us to let go of our natural heritage.

I'm not sure what my point is really. I guess your views have merit, but in the big scheme of things, so do others.

Kind regards,

Jeff

P.S. I guess what what my main point is that mainly, we may decide that we wish to continue to lead a full, rich life into the future. You are trying to break it down into some sort of 'bullet points'. Life isn't that simple...

Edited by JJN, 06 October 2010 - 03:31 AM.

[JJN]

What I am thinking now, is that a higher order of what you are talking about, are such things as being productive, and socially useful. I know this may have coverage in your list, but maybe such things should be 'bullet points' by themselves. Just something to think about...

Regards,

Jeff

P.S. I have seen Maslow's hierarchy before, and sometimes think about it. What he was trying to do, when all of psychology seemed to be just describing pathologies, was to describe what it meant to be a self-actualized person. I'm not sure how well received his description is. It was developed a few years ago now, and with advances in understanding the mind (brain), perhaps a better map is emerging. I think about it a lot actually

P.P.S. I think we still don't know ourselves all that well. Whether it be a scientific understanding, social contracts, and so on, we are still learning about ourselves, and others. One of the things I will point out, that keeps us at the bleeding edge sometimes, is that our knowledge sometimes outpaces our wisdom

P.P.P.S. LOL What future will we build? Will we decide to be content cattle, free of all anguish and despair? Will we decide to try to eliminate human physical suffering, neglect and abuse? These really are big questions, and pertinant to the subject at hand

Edited by JJN, 08 October 2010 - 03:16 AM.

[brokenportal]

I am going to hold tight to my comments about points 2 and 8, for me anyways. I am settled on my thoughts about gods, and it won't hold any interest in my wanting to live longer than 'normal'. For those who are agnostic it may be a valid point. Others who are believers, would not want to know any different than what they believe now, and it would not hold interest for them either, and this may actually be a point of contention for them, and make them want to not live longer.

I know where your coming from. Ive been in the thick of it, not sure which way to go, god, atheism, some variant. In the end though, we just do not know. If we take some of the good and bad arguements we can make and have heard in to account it may be easy to sway one way or the other, but if we take the utter depth and mysteriousness of this grand complex and endlessly dynamic mind twistingly vast space of things yet to know and discover in to account then we undisputingly hands down just dont know. We cant even figure out who did it at the beginning of a half hour episode of Murder She Wrote or Monk. There is no way that we can expect to know the answers of the universe with confidence until we get much further out in to this episode.

In regards to fallacy, one of the definitions for it is deception, or lies. There are other fallacies, sometimes in logic, and reasoning, and that's probably what you are really talking about, and I understand it. For deceptions, we lie to ourselves on occasion about what we can and cannot do, sometimes to our gain and sometimes to our detriment. We lie to others as part of social navigation. Can, or should we do completely without it? I posit no.

Again, I understand where your coming from here, I agree in principle and what I find, you might agree is that this is splitting hairs here. This is more about the pursuit of the elimination of fallacy. If there is some along the way then that can be fine, but as we stand here we are mired in it, like a doctor with a bag of life saving drugs on their way to a children's hospital wading through waist deep mud (fallacy) that doesnt need to be there.

I am playing devil's advocate now: If you were to ask psychologists and sociologists what it means to be a full spectrum human, I am sure they would include fallacies as part of the mix.

Sure, in the same way that they will say that it was part of being human to say, learn to walk, learn to form morals, learn to find a place to contribute in the world, etc.. but along the way we shed those previous obstacles in our way. In that way yes, the process of eliminating fallacy is a part of what it means to be human. We probably never will eliminate it all, its the pursuit of it we are after. Also, in the end, as you are getting at, we may find that some fallacy like scenerios may be fun or enlightening, etc... If through our understanding of fallacy we allow them, then it doesnt become a true fallacy any more, but more like a token gesture. Kind of like when your playing monopoly your not really buying board walk.

Life is gritty and visceral, as well as sometimes clean and rewarding. Personally I'm not looking for any sort of utopian future. This is getting off topic about 'The big 8', but it is a huge leap from what it means to be a full spectrum human right now, to becoming transhumanst. I really hope that in the future there will still be room for full spectrum humans as we know ourselves now, maybe perhaps with some enhancements. To lose that in the future really turns me off in regards to transhumanism.

I cant be sure but you seem to be getting at a world with out mistakes and learning processes to go through. This isnt about that, we will still have that. The pursuit of the big 8 is about that thats exactly right. Im in complete agreement. And there too, its not about the completion of the big 8 as much as it is about the journey to get there.

I really am not trying to shut you down. I was once a very idealistic person. I think you can reach those who are so with your views, and there are many. I am still idealistic in many ways, and have not become cynical. I am positive and far-thinking about the future.

Give me your best criticism if you have it, but also give me your support if this list is right. It needs both. Almost all of philosophy is idealism. What I find is that few if any of them are philosophies that paint the big picture and set goals to go there. This is the philosophy that we dont know the answers and that because of this it is our obligation, if we want to know and be able to say that we know, to move toward these goals. I must stress, this is philosophy of direct action to reach the big picture. I didnt conceptualize the big picture by assembling subjectivities that are privy to my particular brain patterns. We assembled here a list, an index, a mostly objective index of what the big picture consists of. What is there to pursue if you should wish to pursue things with an unlimited amount of time? Its these things. These are the things to pursue. There is some subjectivity in the how the categories are laid out, but not much. The topic here states that too. A book could have its index ordered in a variety of different ways, but the point is to get the whole of its contents indexed out in a succinct form for people to be able to get a grasp of its contents.

What future should we build, and why, and how? It will have many facets. Perhaps we will have splinter cultures, transhumanists, VR arcologies, star colonists and so on. The possibilities are vast.

What we are faced with for now, is what we have always been. To predict the future is to understand where we were, and are now.

I agree, I think we may pretty much agree on most to all of this, but not be able to see it quite yet for use of the different languages of perspectives which discussion like this tends to help translate in to the same language for us.

It is the transition, the change, that we may focus on for now. Change is difficult, but it is a'coming. There are many, though, and myself included, who want to hew to some old ways. It is difficult to get us to let go of our natural heritage.

I'm not sure what my point is really. I guess your views have merit, but in the big scheme of things, so do others.

Right, exactly, that is exactly what this is about. This isnt about my views. These arent my views. This is an index of we can find value in to know and do. There are no other views on what may be valuable to do because that is the very nature of this list, that it is working to be a summary of them all. If you can find more then they will need to be added and I may add them. Its been modified over the years, less and less so as the years wear on but I hope to add more refinement to it.

As for the old ways, Im right there with you. I want that stuff too. For example, with the big 8, if we get indefinite life extension, then one classification of goals that I hope to see unfold is the creation of theme planets, like a planet that is set up like the romans empire circa year 100, the Mongols circa 13th century, Colonial Americans, Incas, Aztecs, Paleo Indians, and so many others used to have it, (but with human rights and morals and more safey codes and what not in place ie, less fallacy).

P.S. I guess what what my main point is that mainly, we may decide that we wish to continue to lead a full, rich life into the future. You are trying to break it down into some sort of 'bullet points'. Life isn't that simple...

This is all about leading a full rich life in to the future, thats right, and the big 8 is simple on a superficial level yes, that is part of the point of creating it, to be able get more of a grasp on the entire big picture all in one bite, but in the long run, the big 8 is as complex as it can get, it is an idex of everything of constructive value that there is to do.

What I am thinking now, is that a higher order of what you are talking about, are such things as being productive, and socially useful. I know this may have coverage in your list, but maybe such things should be 'bullet points' by themselves. Just something to think about...

You want to split hairs, and thats fine, I do too, but this list isnt about splitting hairs and creating a long detailed list. Its about summing it up to make it easier to get a grip on the big picture. Many people, especially people who dont support indefinite life extension, rarely, if ever seriously contemplate the big picture. If we are to live out our potentials and take our opportunities for what they are worth then it is essential that we prioritize our lives in light of the big picture.

Many people literally only think about life vainly, in terms of themselves, or in terms of their household, think a farmer in the backwoods on a hill with a family and a shot gun, or in terms of their community, think soccer mom with banners all over her van, or in terms of their state, like a senator for example, in terms of their country, like say, a Marine, in terms of the world, like an ambassador or an explorer, etc... in terms of the universe, a cosmonaut, a philosopher, etc...

P.S. I have seen Maslow's hierarchy before, and sometimes think about it. What he was trying to do, when all of psychology seemed to be just describing pathologies, was to describe what it meant to be a self-actualized person. I'm not sure how well received his description is. It was developed a few years ago now, and with advances in understanding the mind (brain), perhaps a better map is emerging. I think about it a lot actually

Ya me too. Its a rather fundamental staple, guide, of sociology class and life in general. This is about the pursuit of supreme self actualization. Just non stop submersion in full living. About harnessing what it means to be alive, about latching on and pursuing it in relation to the big picture for all that its worth.

[brokenportal]

This quote from future pundit sums up one good angle on the big 8:

"Think about it: If you want to live long enough to see the universe get a tenth of a percent older (and really, who doesn't) you are going to have to figure out how to stay alive for another 13.75 million years. Puts things in perspective."

[brokenportal]

I was reading through this thing called "neo think" today and it reminds me of the big 8 too.

"This very act of accepting an unknown as an answer is a mystical default by nature, for it results in a suspended search. When we stop searching we cease to locate answers."

Thats part of the very point of this index to the big picture of existence, aka the big 8.

[TelepathicMerg]

"Still, in the end, for me personally, there's only one good reason: As long as you're alive you can always die, but when you're dead that's it. (At least this is what the evidence suggests.) So, why die? Seems rather silly to me. No more lovely women to look at. No more laughter. No more tears. No more stories to read or tell. No more beautiful vistas to behold. No more dreams. What a awful, dismal prospect."

- How do you know Till? What kind of "evidence" do you have? (: May be it is all but a matter of finding out what's actually out "there" and then having a true choice. Perhaps we'd be all rewriting the list then... Really, how could "death" or "ending" be the assumption of all the curious people? Personally I am ready to leave the tank with the rest of the gold fish asap.

[brokenportal]

Personally I am ready to leave the tank with the rest of the gold fish asap.

Do you mean to see if there is an afterlife or do you mean like to get out of this shell with this short fuse on it and get unglued from this one tiny orb and leave this area and time zone and move on out into the rest of the universe and existence in that way?

[Droplet]

"Still, in the end, for me personally, there's only one good reason: As long as you're alive you can always die, but when you're dead that's it. (At least this is what the evidence suggests.) So, why die? Seems rather silly to me. No more lovely women to look at. No more laughter. No more tears. No more stories to read or tell. No more beautiful vistas to behold. No more dreams. What a awful, dismal prospect."

I'm with that...except for me, change "women" to "men."

[brokenportal]

One of the 8 is:

-All forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered

I often use examples like, "For example, imagine if you had never tasted chocolate, or had never been able to see anything, then one day you could. It seems like there are countless more things out there for us like that, "Chocolate", that we are yet to taste, etc."

This video here is a great example of capturing the kind of things that we don't want to be missing out on. Imagine if this woman would have died never having known this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsOo3jzkhYA

[brokenportal]

So part of the reason for creating the big 8 was to help more people be able to wrap their minds around the vast scope of things there are to do in this existence, to try to help people get a better grip on all of the things that there are to do in life. What does being alive afford us? It affords us the opportunity to experience as much of the big 8 as we want.

A lot of people can't think of much to do. You will often find people who say that it will get boring, playing basket ball, listening to music, and talking to your friends for hundreds of years. Part of the reason It seems they cant conceptualize it is summed up pretty well by this blog post here: http://meteuphoric.w...-introspectors/

In part:

When we don’t have concepts for things, we can hardly think about them. When I learn new concepts, I often notice them applying everywhere where before I didn’t even notice anything missing.