60 replies to this topic

[Ben]

For three months I stopped using retin-a in order to give my skin a break.

During that time I noticed my skin's appearance slowly deteriorating. It was actually a little bit frightening, first the pores on my nose started enlarging, then, when large enough, the oil within them starting going black and brown. The skin around my eyes which has thinned due to sun damage reverted back to how it used to be, but even thinner. So much so that a whole bunch of veins could be seen around my eyes. Gradually, the skin around my whole face became rougher in texture and really uneven in colour. When I was using retin-a there was a uniformity to the colour around my face that really makes a huge aesthetic difference. My skin was blotchy and sallow for most of the 3 months.

This week I started using it again. Already I'm noticing the colour of my skin evening out and the size of its pores being reduced. Also a glow is starting to replace the ugly sallowness. Interestingly, although the retin-a is making my skin more red than when I was regularly using it, I haven't any flaking or redness when I wash it off like I did when I first started using it.

Looking at my self in the mirror, I look about 5 years younger now that I'm using it again. Scary.

[TheFountain]

Were you using a sunblock and moisturizer while taking your break from the retinoids? Do you take anything internally for skin health, like biosil? If I took a break that long I would be doing bi-weekly glycolic acid peels or weekly lactic acid peels to keep collagen synthesis going.

Edited by TheFountain, 18 January 2010 - 02:40 PM.

[Ben]

Were you using a sunblock and moisturizer while taking your break from the retinoids? Do you take anything internally for skin health, like biosil? If I took a break that long I would be doing bi-weekly glycolic acid peels or weekly lactic acid peels to keep collagen synthesis going.

You're quite right I should have peeled but the idea was really to give my skin a big break and prevent any adaptations that it might be making to my regimen. I did use sunscreen, but only when I went outside at a uv index over 3.

I think, looking at how much my skin has changed over these three months, I'm going to really step my program up. Peels, BioSil, etc.

[numbered]

hey Ben. maybe you should ease your self in to your new skin program if you are adding glycolic peels etc. damn its hard to believe that your skin changed in such a sort time. Ive been using retinoids for a long time and you kinda got me scared of what might happen if i stopped. stupid question but , do you smoke? or get exposed to smoke? or maybe there were other dietary changes at the same time? hmmm

[TheFountain]

hey Ben. maybe you should ease your self in to your new skin program if you are adding glycolic peels etc. damn its hard to believe that your skin changed in such a sort time. Ive been using retinoids for a long time and you kinda got me scared of what might happen if i stopped. stupid question but , do you smoke? or get exposed to smoke? or maybe there were other dietary changes at the same time? hmmm

I don't think cigarette smoke would act so fast as to immediately destroy the benefits of retinoids, the damage from exposure to cigarette smoke is cumulative rather than punctual. It would take years to see. Unless he has a cigarette allergy. That said people should still avoid second hand smoke as much as humanly possible and take lung cleansers like NAC when in the presence of a smoker.

[numbered]

hey Ben. maybe you should ease your self in to your new skin program if you are adding glycolic peels etc. damn its hard to believe that your skin changed in such a sort time. Ive been using retinoids for a long time and you kinda got me scared of what might happen if i stopped. stupid question but , do you smoke? or get exposed to smoke? or maybe there were other dietary changes at the same time? hmmm

I don't think cigarette smoke would act so fast as to immediately destroy the benefits of retinoids, the damage from exposure to cigarette smoke is cumulative rather than punctual. It would take years to see. Unless he has a cigarette allergy. That said people should still avoid second hand smoke as much as humanly possible and take lung cleansers like NAC when in the presence of a smoker.

yeah i guess you are right it is just that 3 months is a such a small time frame and Ben is young. I hoped that retinoids would have produced somewhat longer lasting results.

[TheFountain]

hey Ben. maybe you should ease your self in to your new skin program if you are adding glycolic peels etc. damn its hard to believe that your skin changed in such a sort time. Ive been using retinoids for a long time and you kinda got me scared of what might happen if i stopped. stupid question but , do you smoke? or get exposed to smoke? or maybe there were other dietary changes at the same time? hmmm

I don't think cigarette smoke would act so fast as to immediately destroy the benefits of retinoids, the damage from exposure to cigarette smoke is cumulative rather than punctual. It would take years to see. Unless he has a cigarette allergy. That said people should still avoid second hand smoke as much as humanly possible and take lung cleansers like NAC when in the presence of a smoker.

yeah i guess you are right it is just that 3 months is a such a small time frame and Ben is young. I hoped that retinoids would have produced somewhat longer lasting results.

I am a year younger than ben and although I haven't stopped for that long as yet when I do stop for longer than 3-4 days I do notice a slight difference and my skin doesn't feel as tight as it does when I take it. The reason I stop is redness. But my new strategy is instead of stopping I simply use adapalene instead of retin-a to keep my skin adapted during the time I am not using the retin-a.

Edited by TheFountain, 19 January 2010 - 09:28 AM.

[Ben]

hey Ben. maybe you should ease your self in to your new skin program if you are adding glycolic peels etc. damn its hard to believe that your skin changed in such a sort time. Ive been using retinoids for a long time and you kinda got me scared of what might happen if i stopped. stupid question but , do you smoke? or get exposed to smoke? or maybe there were other dietary changes at the same time? hmmm

I don't think cigarette smoke would act so fast as to immediately destroy the benefits of retinoids, the damage from exposure to cigarette smoke is cumulative rather than punctual. It would take years to see. Unless he has a cigarette allergy. That said people should still avoid second hand smoke as much as humanly possible and take lung cleansers like NAC when in the presence of a smoker.

yeah i guess you are right it is just that 3 months is a such a small time frame and Ben is young. I hoped that retinoids would have produced somewhat longer lasting results.

I don't smoke now but I did pretty heavily from the age of 16 to 24. I smoked quite few drugs over this time too (almost everything).

From what I've read, it takes about ten years for sun damage to develop. During my childhood and early teens I spent almost all the time I had on the beach, some of it in Israel, but most of it here. The problem is that Australia's UV levels are unusually high, so, not only was I not protected most of the time (my wog father is against anything like that), I was also exposed at midday to an extreme level of UV.

Fast forward a bit and I am at Uni. Monash Caulfield. Sadly this campus has a lot of white concrete and my classes mostly started at midday. Because I used to live nearby I would walk to class during high noon with the sun beating down on me and probably 80%+ being reflected back at me for a double dose. In summer the UV here stays around 14 and goes up to about 18. Imagine it. It was around this time in my life that the skin around my eyes started thinning and the tiny veins starting becoming visible on the surface. An ugly, aged look.

When I started using sunscreen, retinoids and various acids on my face in mid 2008, my skin was already quite damaged. The retinoids and aggressive glycolic acid peels worked really well, but, after this experience, I see that I'm almost fully dependent on them.

[Dagon]

Thanks for the detailed report Ben!

One question I have is; if a person - after years - decided to stop using retinoids, would the skin end up looking worse than if the person had never started retinoids in the first place?

[mustardseed41]

Thanks for the detailed report Ben!

One question I have is; if a person - after years - decided to stop using retinoids, would the skin end up looking worse than if the person had never started retinoids in the first place?

No

[Ben]

Thanks for the detailed report Ben!

One question I have is; if a person - after years - decided to stop using retinoids, would the skin end up looking worse than if the person had never started retinoids in the first place?

No

Indeed MS is probably right, unless there were exceptional circumstances while you were using the retinoid, from what I understand you skin will be better as it is apparently repaired while you are using the cream. To be honest though, from what I saw, there really wasn't any repair at all.

[rollo]

I always wondered about this very thing.

Thanks for posting Ben.

[rollo]

Could you tell us about skin sensitivity to the sun during this time aswell? Did you burn more easily...???

Thanks

[Chaos Theory]

I only used retinoids for around two months. I was using OTC .9% retinol, green cream. I had to stop due to sun sensitivity.

While I thought the retinol made my skin look better, when I stopped using it my skin looked so much worse than when I had started.

Coming off the retinol, my skin was still very sun sensitive, but in addition it now had a blotchy look to it. The texture was very irregular.

This has persisted for a very long time. It has slowly gotten better, and now it is 10 months since I stopped using the retinol. My skin is still not exactly where it was when I started.

I personally wish I never would have touched the stuff, and I'm interested in hearing from other people who used them for a while then stopped completely.

[NDM]

I only used retinoids for around two months. I was using OTC .9% retinol, green cream. I had to stop due to sun sensitivity.

While I thought the retinol made my skin look better, when I stopped using it my skin looked so much worse than when I had started.

Coming off the retinol, my skin was still very sun sensitive, but in addition it now had a blotchy look to it. The texture was very irregular.

This has persisted for a very long time. It has slowly gotten better, and now it is 10 months since I stopped using the retinol. My skin is still not exactly where it was when I started.

I personally wish I never would have touched the stuff, and I'm interested in hearing from other people who used them for a while then stopped completely.

I wonder how kismet and the like would weigh your contribution...what you say is anectodal, hence (close to) irrelevant...Yet, for most of us mortals, what you say is relevant and we do weigh it. Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

[Mia K.]

I only used retinoids for around two months. I was using OTC .9% retinol, green cream. I had to stop due to sun sensitivity.

While I thought the retinol made my skin look better, when I stopped using it my skin looked so much worse than when I had started.

Coming off the retinol, my skin was still very sun sensitive, but in addition it now had a blotchy look to it. The texture was very irregular.

This has persisted for a very long time. It has slowly gotten better, and now it is 10 months since I stopped using the retinol. My skin is still not exactly where it was when I started.

I personally wish I never would have touched the stuff, and I'm interested in hearing from other people who used them for a while then stopped completely.

I wonder how kismet and the like would weigh your contribution...what you say is anectodal, hence (close to) irrelevant...Yet, for most of us mortals, what you say is relevant and we do weigh it. Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

Goodness.  What Chaos Theory and NDM have posited.  

Hope your skin comes around, Ben-Aus...do you have a good hat or few? MK

Edited by Mia K., 07 February 2010 - 03:40 PM.

[Ben]

...what you say is relevant and we do weigh it. Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

EBM.

Hope your skin comes around, Ben-Aus...do you have a good hat or few? MK

Thanks for that. I'm using retin-a again and the difference is incredible (and relieving). I do need a good hat, though, it's hard to find one that's even near aesthetically acceptable.

[amonavis]

I only used retinoids for around two months. I was using OTC .9% retinol, green cream. I had to stop due to sun sensitivity.

While I thought the retinol made my skin look better, when I stopped using it my skin looked so much worse than when I had started.

Coming off the retinol, my skin was still very sun sensitive, but in addition it now had a blotchy look to it. The texture was very irregular.

This has persisted for a very long time. It has slowly gotten better, and now it is 10 months since I stopped using the retinol. My skin is still not exactly where it was when I started.

I personally wish I never would have touched the stuff, and I'm interested in hearing from other people who used them for a while then stopped completely.

You said it made you sun sensitive. Did you wear a high protection sunscreen? Did you practice sun avoidance?
Retinoids can cause sun sensitivity however no more than if you exfoliate regularly and then go out into the sun. You skin becomes more fragile and has a greater tendancy to burn and get sun damage IF you do not use sun protection. Perhaps this is what happened to you. I would only recommend retinoids to someone who is willing to not only use sunscreen but also practice sun avoidance, ie no more trips to the beach. It's not for everyone.

I am using the strongest retinoid available, Tazorac, in the highest concentration and I have only noticed an improved texture however I never go out in the sun and I always wear my SPF 50.

[TheFountain]

...what you say is relevant and we do weigh it. Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

EBM.

Hope your skin comes around, Ben-Aus...do you have a good hat or few? MK

Thanks for that. I'm using retin-a again and the difference is incredible (and relieving). I do need a good hat, though, it's hard to find one that's even near aesthetically acceptable.

Another suggestion would be, if you do take a break again, use Metazene gel (topical niacinamide) while on your off time. This too has been shown to increase collagen in studies by 13% I believe.

[miklu]

Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

Ex ante, EBM; ex post, experience. To keep using a product unsuitable for your skin, even if EBM shows it's useful on the average skin, is just plain dumb.

[Chaos Theory]

I wonder how kismet and the like would weigh your contribution...what you say is anectodal, hence (close to) irrelevant...Yet, for most of us mortals, what you say is relevant and we do weigh it. Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

I don't see how my experience differs very significantly from Ben's, aside from the fact that he chose to go back on the retinoids and I stayed off of them.

I'm not implying that there is permanent damage from using retinol. I was merely pointing out that I found it takes a significant amount of time for the skin to get back to where it was originally. Though I have never used a powerful chemical exfoliant, retinol in my experience is far and away more exfoliating than anything else you can get OTC. If you read over on the green cream boards the owner of the company said that after 2 months on retinoids you have completely removed the stratum corneum.

[Ben]

You said it made you sun sensitive. Did you wear a high protection sunscreen? Did you practice sun avoidance?
Retinoids can cause sun sensitivity however no more than if you exfoliate regularly and then go out into the sun. You skin becomes more fragile and has a greater tendancy to burn and get sun damage IF you do not use sun protection. Perhaps this is what happened to you. I would only recommend retinoids to someone who is willing to not only use sunscreen but also practice sun avoidance, ie no more trips to the beach. It's not for everyone.

I am using the strongest retinoid available, Tazorac, in the highest concentration and I have only noticed an improved texture however I never go out in the sun and I always wear my SPF 50.

Personally, while using retin-a and being aware of the added sensitivity, I'd say my sun protection efforts were adequate yet not exceptional (avoiding peak UV, properly applying high UVA sunscreen, heliocare and carotinoids in diet such as lycopene).

Another suggestion would be, if you do take a break again, use Metazene gel (topical niacinamide) while on your off time. This too has been shown to increase collagen in studies by 13% I believe.

Thanks I'll look into that.

Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

Ex ante, EBM; ex post, experience. To keep using a product unsuitable for your skin, even if EBM shows it's useful on the average skin, is just plain dumb.

I agree with you to an extent. Part of the effectiveness of a reliance on high-quality EBM is that it removes subjectivity and bias. Making self-assessments will always reintroduce the two, however, that said, you can usually tell when something is really wrong for you.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 11 February 2010 - 12:47 PM.

[ascendedcobra]

I wonder how kismet and the like would weigh your contribution...what you say is anectodal, hence (close to) irrelevant...Yet, for most of us mortals, what you say is relevant and we do weigh it. Should we trust our intuition or evidence-based medicine?

I don't see how my experience differs very significantly from Ben's, aside from the fact that he chose to go back on the retinoids and I stayed off of them.

I'm not implying that there is permanent damage from using retinol. I was merely pointing out that I found it takes a significant amount of time for the skin to get back to where it was originally. Though I have never used a powerful chemical exfoliant, retinol in my experience is far and away more exfoliating than anything else you can get OTC. If you read over on the green cream boards the owner of the company said that after 2 months on retinoids you have completely removed the stratum corneum.

I have had the same experience as you. It caused my skin to get blotchy on my forehead. Unfortunatly in my case it seems permanent thus far. The thing is I have really good skin other than that and almost zero wrinkles at 40yrs. I got greedy and actually hurt my skin. I am considering laser therapy to get rid it, but have to avoid any more sun for the rest of my life.

[e Volution]

So Ben, are you basically now resigned to using retinoids regularly for the rest of your life without any more breaks?

[Ben]

So Ben, are you basically now resigned to using retinoids regularly for the rest of your life without any more breaks?

Yeah, I think I'll keep using them. The difference is really noticeable and I believe now that they're working to prevent aging rather than temporarily making my skin look better.

[e Volution]

So Ben, are you basically now resigned to using retinoids regularly for the rest of your life without any more breaks?

Yeah, I think I'll keep using them. The difference is really noticeable and I believe now that they're working to prevent aging rather than temporarily making my skin look better.

So you think your initial experience was more of a subjective bias having witnessed the transition from retinoids back to normal which exaggerated the change, sort of like how 60km/h in a car is quite fast but feels slower than walking when you move down to it after doing 110km/h on the highway?

[Ben]

So Ben, are you basically now resigned to using retinoids regularly for the rest of your life without any more breaks?

Yeah, I think I'll keep using them. The difference is really noticeable and I believe now that they're working to prevent aging rather than temporarily making my skin look better.

So you think your initial experience was more of a subjective bias having witnessed the transition from retinoids back to normal which exaggerated the change, sort of like how 60km/h in a car is quite fast but feels slower than walking when you move down to it after doing 110km/h on the highway?

Well, even considering subjective bias, the change was quite apparent but, the thing is, I don't know how I would have looked had I not used the retinoids. Without a control like that I have to go with the science.

[UltimaRatio]

Could the changes be at least partly due to a loss of subcutaneous fat caused by retin-a:

http://resources.met...03&size=largest

[Dagon]

Could the changes be at least partly due to a loss of subcutaneous fat caused by retin-a:

http://resources.met...03&size=largest

Interesting question! Does anyone know the answer to this? How important is subcutaneous fat?

[Ben]

Could the changes be at least partly due to a loss of subcutaneous fat caused by retin-a:

http://resources.met...03&size=largest

Interesting question! Does anyone know the answer to this? How important is subcutaneous fat?

Very important. A few milliliters can be the difference between decades of apparent facial age. I have to look into this :(