60 replies to this topic

[e Volution]

Could the changes be at least partly due to a loss of subcutaneous fat caused by retin-a:

http://resources.met...03&size=largest

Interesting question! Does anyone know the answer to this? How important is subcutaneous fat?

Very important. A few milliliters can be the difference between decades of apparent facial age. I have to look into this :(

Do you ever end up investigating this Ben?

[nowayout]

I get good results from retin-A, but I also see the effect described by the OP when stopping it. Resuming it improves the skin in a couple of days.

For this reason, I highly suspect that the cosmetic improvement is mostly from the drying out effect of the retinoid that pulls the skin tighter, and probably not mainly from any repair.

I'm not denying that some repair might take place, but that does not seem to be behind most of the cosmetic effect. Simply, it is tightness due to drying out.

[dehbleh]

This is why I prefer Copper Peptides. I can actually get on with my life and enjoy what is outside... you know... in the sun...

Doesn't matter how much you reapply sunblock, if you spend a proper day in the sun whilst using Retin-A you're gonna look like Freddy Krueger the day after.
Copper peptides have many of the same actions as Retinoids (plus some more) without the pesky sun-sensitivty.

I've used both extensively and for the sake of having a valid social life, I know what I would choose. Saying that, I guess it all depends on where you live!

[TheFountain]

I get good results from retin-A, but I also see the effect described by the OP when stopping it. Resuming it improves the skin in a couple of days.

For this reason, I highly suspect that the cosmetic improvement is mostly from the drying out effect of the retinoid that pulls the skin tighter, and probably not mainly from any repair.

I'm not denying that some repair might take place, but that does not seem to be behind most of the cosmetic effect. Simply, it is tightness due to drying out.

No, studies show that retin-a increases collagen synthesis by approximately 34%.

So it thickens the dermis, despite shrinking the epidermis. This is not simply a drying out effect.

[TheFountain]

This is why I prefer Copper Peptides. I can actually get on with my life and enjoy what is outside... you know... in the sun...

Doesn't matter how much you reapply sunblock, if you spend a proper day in the sun whilst using Retin-A you're gonna look like Freddy Krueger the day after.
Copper peptides have many of the same actions as Retinoids (plus some more) without the pesky sun-sensitivty.

I've used both extensively and for the sake of having a valid social life, I know what I would choose. Saying that, I guess it all depends on where you live!

However, many accounts accounts of copper peptides are negative. People state it actually causes wrinkles. In fact, depending on what forum you visit, I have read more negative accounts than positive ones where copper peptides are concerned.

[spirilla01]

which is the reason why I haven´t included Copper peptides in my skin regime. Too many reviews on MUA and Essential day spa that it actually causes skin sagging.
I have been using Retina A in various strenght for over 5 years, from 0.01 to 0.1 gel from Adc. and finally settled on the 0.05 cream which my skin seems to tolerate quite well. I´ve had exactly the same experience as Ben on a 3 week trip where i forgot to bring my retin A. After a week my skin began looking gray and i lost that pinky fresh looking glow. Fortunately i traveled through Bangkok where you can get Retin OTC at the airport and in just a coulple of days my skin started to improve again. So, I guess i am in for a life time use of Retin A.

[dehbleh]

OK.

Copper Peptides will make your skin look worse initially, a phenomenon known as the "uglies". It's no big secret either, you will see it mentioned plenty of times in the literature and forums at SkinBiology.

What those mugs at EDS / MUA don't realise is that it is quite necessary, part of the healing process in fact. CP's cause scar tissue to rise to the surface and this makes everything worse. Take a couple of days break, include exfoliation and you will see an improvement.

Combining CP's with Retinoids (or some form of exfoliation) is integral to making it work. CP's by themselves will make your skin look rough and leathery (due the the dead skin cell build up).

I've personally experienced a sizeable 5yr old scar on my leg transform into a scab which eventually healed and left perfect skin in its place, all due to CP's. The science is not bunk, they work well when used *properly*.

[nowayout]

I get good results from retin-A, but I also see the effect described by the OP when stopping it. Resuming it improves the skin in a couple of days.

For this reason, I highly suspect that the cosmetic improvement is mostly from the drying out effect of the retinoid that pulls the skin tighter, and probably not mainly from any repair.

I'm not denying that some repair might take place, but that does not seem to be behind most of the cosmetic effect. Simply, it is tightness due to drying out.

No, studies show that retin-a increases collagen synthesis by approximately 34%.

So it thickens the dermis, despite shrinking the epidermis. This is not simply a drying out effect.

That is indeed a good thing, but I still suspect most of the cosmetic effect on me personally is from drying tightness.

[TheFountain]

OK.

Copper Peptides will make your skin look worse initially, a phenomenon known as the "uglies". It's no big secret either, you will see it mentioned plenty of times in the literature and forums at SkinBiology.

What those mugs at EDS / MUA don't realise is that it is quite necessary, part of the healing process in fact. CP's cause scar tissue to rise to the surface and this makes everything worse. Take a couple of days break, include exfoliation and you will see an improvement.

Combining CP's with Retinoids (or some form of exfoliation) is integral to making it work. CP's by themselves will make your skin look rough and leathery (due the the dead skin cell build up).

I've personally experienced a sizeable 5yr old scar on my leg transform into a scab which eventually healed and left perfect skin in its place, all due to CP's. The science is not bunk, they work well when used *properly*.

All well and good, but what about the 'skin sagging' that people seem to report while using copper peptides. It seems like a separate phenomenon from the condition you mention above. And how do you successfully integrate it into a regimen where you are already on retinoids and require sun protection during the day? It seems foolhardly to me.

Edited by TheFountain, 20 November 2010 - 10:01 PM.

[dehbleh]

All well and good, but what about the 'skin sagging' that people seem to report while using copper peptides. It seems like a separate phenomenon from the condition you mention above. And how do you successfully integrate it into a regimen where you are already on retinoids and require sun protection during the day? It seems foolhardly to me.

Skin sagging comes from copper peptide overuse and improves beyond baseline upon temporary cessation with some light exfoliation. In my experience, it's not a seperate phenomenon.

How to integrate them into a regime with Retinoids? Easy, use at seperate times of the day (ie: Retin-A application at night and CP application in the morning). You will find the two actives are synergistic and CPs go some way to providing skin protection during the day. Synergism and skin protection from using both? Not so foolhardy now.

The only reason I don't bother with Retin-A is because I would rather go out in the sun any time I choose. If I didn't care about life outside then I would go back to using both.
Regardless, I'm still getting vast improvements from CP's alone (though not as quick as when I was using both). FYI, I've been using CPs for just under 5 years.

[TheFountain]

All well and good, but what about the 'skin sagging' that people seem to report while using copper peptides. It seems like a separate phenomenon from the condition you mention above. And how do you successfully integrate it into a regimen where you are already on retinoids and require sun protection during the day? It seems foolhardly to me.

Skin sagging comes from copper peptide overuse and improves beyond baseline upon temporary cessation with some light exfoliation. In my experience, it's not a seperate phenomenon.

How to integrate them into a regime with Retinoids? Easy, use at seperate times of the day (ie: Retin-A application at night and CP application in the morning). You will find the two actives are synergistic and CPs go some way to providing skin protection during the day. Synergism and skin protection from using both? Not so foolhardy now.

The only reason I don't bother with Retin-A is because I would rather go out in the sun any time I choose. If I didn't care about life outside then I would go back to using both.
Regardless, I'm still getting vast improvements from CP's alone (though not as quick as when I was using both). FYI, I've been using CPs for just under 5 years.

But you apparently don't wear sunscreen over the copper peptides in order to preserve the benefits of it?

Being the experimental idiot that I am I have been debating the slow introduction of copper peptides into a regimen, but I am very cautious about it because of the reports of skin sagging, even with moderate use, yes, moderate use. Go read the nightmare accounts from people at that really famous skincare forum. They call it 'the uglies'. In other words crepeyness and sagging.

You are saying overuse caused this, but according to some of these people they only used copper peptides 2-3 days a week. What constitutes overuse then?

[dehbleh]

But you apparently don't wear sunscreen over the copper peptides in order to preserve the benefits of it?

Being the experimental idiot that I am I have been debating the slow introduction of copper peptides into a regimen, but I am very cautious about it because of the reports of skin sagging, even with moderate use, yes, moderate use. Go read the nightmare accounts from people at that really famous skincare forum. They call it 'the uglies'. In other words crepeyness and sagging.

You are saying overuse caused this, but according to some of these people they only used copper peptides 2-3 days a week. What constitutes overuse then?

I guess overuse depends on how permeable your epidermis is. People who exfoliate regularly and apply retinoids are obviously going to fall under this banner.

If the copper peptides are strong enough (like SuperCop x2) 1-2 days a week is plenty. Try and think of it this way:
Strong CPs + permeable epidermis = strong healing reaction and increased risk of temporary side effects ("uglies").

If you're going to experiment try a weaker strength and work your way up.

[TheFountain]

But you apparently don't wear sunscreen over the copper peptides in order to preserve the benefits of it?

Being the experimental idiot that I am I have been debating the slow introduction of copper peptides into a regimen, but I am very cautious about it because of the reports of skin sagging, even with moderate use, yes, moderate use. Go read the nightmare accounts from people at that really famous skincare forum. They call it 'the uglies'. In other words crepeyness and sagging.

You are saying overuse caused this, but according to some of these people they only used copper peptides 2-3 days a week. What constitutes overuse then?

I guess overuse depends on how permeable your epidermis is. People who exfoliate regularly and apply retinoids are obviously going to fall under this banner.

If the copper peptides are strong enough (like SuperCop x2) 1-2 days a week is plenty. Try and think of it this way:
Strong CPs + permeable epidermis = strong healing reaction and increased risk of temporary side effects ("uglies").

If you're going to experiment try a weaker strength and work your way up.

Link me to the weaker, first generation version of the copper peptide formula from skin biology please. I am not sure which one that is.

[dehbleh]

Link me to the weaker, first generation version of the copper peptide formula from skin biology please. I am not sure which one that is.

Heh, yeah Skin Bio's website is horrible. Not nearly as bad as it used to be though.

You're looking for Super GHK Copper Cream.

Although If I were you, I'd definitely go for something like Protect & Restore Classic Cream. It's their mildest second generation GHK formula. I say this because I've only ever used 2nd generation copper peptides, so I really have no idea if the 1st generation product works at all.

Also look around on froogle.com for a better price. There are far cheaper resellers out there.

[dehbleh]

Btw, sorry to Ben for hijacking his thread.

I only intended to add my two cents on the subject but it kind of spiraled into this.

[Strangelove]

Very interesting thread!

Reading about Retin-A and copper peptides it seems that these are two actives that realy seem to be effective!

Any uptades anyone on those?

I have not tried many skin products, but the only thing that has made a noticable difference in my skin is this AHA-B cream.

http://www.iherb.com...-oz-30-ml/21481

I know that you cannot use an AHA cream with Retin-A as it would make it inactive, but do you think you could use the three together (copper peptides included) at different times of the day or would be overkill?

A micro needle roller seems highly effective also for better skin in many skin issues.

http://www.amazon.co...roneedle roller

Also I really want to try this, it seems quite interesting!

http://www.facelift-gym-america.com/

[nowayout]

I am a year younger than ben and although I haven't stopped for that long as yet when I do stop for longer than 3-4 days I do notice a slight difference and my skin doesn't feel as tight as it does when I take it.

I'm almost sure the tightness and smoothing people experience from retinoids is due to the drug drying out your skin, not any "rejuvenation." Your experience is in accordance with mine, and seems to confirm my hypothesis.

[Authentic]

I've switched to Retin-A micro 0.04%. The micro form stopped the drying out and redness mentioned above. I've had good experiences with the micro compared to the regular forms. If you saw my skin you'd understand immediately that it's not just drying out. I'm on my 4th year of Retin A and happily it has helped with skin quality. I get "you have great skin" very often from people I meet.

[TheFountain]

I am a year younger than ben and although I haven't stopped for that long as yet when I do stop for longer than 3-4 days I do notice a slight difference and my skin doesn't feel as tight as it does when I take it.

I'm almost sure the tightness and smoothing people experience from retinoids is due to the drug drying out your skin, not any "rejuvenation." Your experience is in accordance with mine, and seems to confirm my hypothesis.

I actually ceased Retin-A a year and a half ago (or was it two years?).

You are way better off using amlactin once a week in the winter (at night) and a good mineral sunscreen.

The price you pay for Retin-A's modest benefits is too high in my opinion.

[Strangelove]

I am a year younger than ben and although I haven't stopped for that long as yet when I do stop for longer than 3-4 days I do notice a slight difference and my skin doesn't feel as tight as it does when I take it.

I'm almost sure the tightness and smoothing people experience from retinoids is due to the drug drying out your skin, not any "rejuvenation." Your experience is in accordance with mine, and seems to confirm my hypothesis.

I actually ceased Retin-A a year and a half ago (or was it two years?).

You are way better off using amlactin once a week in the winter (at night) and a good mineral sunscreen.

The price you pay for Retin-A's modest benefits is too high in my opinion.

Seems interesting, AHA and ceramides. I did not see a face cream in their site, do you use their body cream on your face? Why only once per week?

For me there is no problem for the cost of a tretinoin cream, as I found that is really cheap in my country. Around $4 for a 20gr tube. I bought one and I ll report back in a couple weeks. There are quite a few anecdotes on line, that a retin A cream made a huge positive difference on facial skin. I am only worried of possible side effects from long term use.

How to use correctly a tretinoin cream.

http://www.drbaileys...ging-skin-care/

From the same page, why to use it.
Lastly, why bother with this tricky and sometimes inconvenient skin care treatment?
Scientific studies and my medical experience give me so many reasons to be a big fan of tretinoin:

• It has proven itself to reduce, reverse, and prevent wrinkles. The younger a person starts (teens and twenties), the more benefit they receive, but it’s never too late!
• It helps lighten and prevent age spots.
• It builds collagen to thicken and increase the structural strength of treated skin.
• It helps to decrease a person’s risk of developing skin cancer.
• Skin just looks better and younger when they use tretinoin.

Edited by Strangelove, 08 September 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Strangelove]

A list with effective topicals I found.

http://www.smartskin...tments/topical/

[Authentic]

Just a point of clarification - I'm saying to use micronized Retin-A. It's much less irritating than classic Retin-A.

[TheFountain]

I am a year younger than ben and although I haven't stopped for that long as yet when I do stop for longer than 3-4 days I do notice a slight difference and my skin doesn't feel as tight as it does when I take it.

I'm almost sure the tightness and smoothing people experience from retinoids is due to the drug drying out your skin, not any "rejuvenation." Your experience is in accordance with mine, and seems to confirm my hypothesis.

I actually ceased Retin-A a year and a half ago (or was it two years?).

You are way better off using amlactin once a week in the winter (at night) and a good mineral sunscreen.

The price you pay for Retin-A's modest benefits is too high in my opinion.

Seems interesting, AHA and ceramides. I did not see a face cream in their site, do you use their body cream on your face? Why only once per week?

For me there is no problem for the cost of a tretinoin cream, as I found that is really cheap in my country. Around $4 for a 20gr tube. I bought one and I ll report back in a couple weeks. There are quite a few anecdotes on line, that a retin A cream made a huge positive difference on facial skin. I am only worried of possible side effects from long term use.

How to use correctly a tretinoin cream.

http://www.drbaileys...ging-skin-care/

From the same page, why to use it.
Lastly, why bother with this tricky and sometimes inconvenient skin care treatment?
Scientific studies and my medical experience give me so many reasons to be a big fan of tretinoin:

• It has proven itself to reduce, reverse, and prevent wrinkles. The younger a person starts (teens and twenties), the more benefit they receive, but it’s never too late!
• It helps lighten and prevent age spots.
• It builds collagen to thicken and increase the structural strength of treated skin.
• It helps to decrease a person’s risk of developing skin cancer.
• Skin just looks better and younger when they use tretinoin.

There is an obscure study that shows Amlactin is successful at reversing skin sagging. We already know the benefits of AHA's on Collagen synthesis.

Abstract

BACKGROUND: Topical corticosteroids produce atrophic changes in skin, including thinning of the epidermis and decrease in dermal ground substance. We observed that 12% ammonium lactate produced an increase in the thickness of epidermis and increased amounts of dermal glycosaminoglycans. OBJECTIVE: Our purpose was to determine whether 12% ammonium lactate could minimize cutaneous atrophy produced by a potent topical corticosteroid. METHODS: Clobetasol propionate, 12% ammonium lactate, and both agents were repetitively applied under occlusive patches as well as in open patches on the forearms of human volunteers for 3 to 4 weeks. Biopsy specimens were analyzed for thickness of the epidermis and dermal glycosaminoglycans by image analysis. RESULTS: Twelve percent ammonium lactate produced a significant sparing of atrophy in both the epidermis and dermis without any influence on the bioavailability or antiinflammatory properties of the corticosteroid. CONCLUSION: Twelve percent ammonium lactate may be useful in mitigating the adverse effects of corticosteroid on skin. (J Am Acad Dermatol 1992 Apr;26(4):535-44)

http://www.eblue.org...le/0190-9622(92)70076-R/abstract

Edit: Apparently the Journal entry was removed for some reason. But the study no doubt exists nevertheless.

Edited by TheFountain, 09 September 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Strangelove]

I've switched to Retin-A micro 0.04%. The micro form stopped the drying out and redness mentioned above. I've had good experiences with the micro compared to the regular forms. If you saw my skin you'd understand immediately that it's not just drying out. I'm on my 4th year of Retin A and happily it has helped with skin quality. I get "you have great skin" very often from people I meet.

When you say "compared to the regular forms", do you mean less side effects and\or better results?
I can only find the regular Retin-A, but I am using a very small amount and plan to use it only twice a week for the first month.

[Authentic]

Yes, I mean less side effects (not as much redness and flaking) and better results. When I was using classic Retin-A I could only tolerate the 0.01%. I had tried the 0.025% but it made me look very red and splotchy. With the Micro, I can tolerate 0.04%.

[Strangelove]

Nice, isotretinoin seems to be a good option also, somewhat less side effects with better results long-term to the outer skin layer.

[Strangelove]

Some "unique" products I found.

epidermal growth factor.
http://www.skinactiv...tor-BT-EGF.html

Cheap copper peptides to add to a cream.
http://www.skinactiv...eptide-GHK.html

[danezcou3]

How old are you and for how long have you been using retin a?

[Ben]

How old are you and for how long have you been using retin a?

I used retinoids for 2 years, from 2008 to 2010. I plan to resume soon. If you want to slow down facial aging, from my experience, I recommend retinoids.

I'm 29 now, 2 months to the big three o though.

Edit: This is incomplete. After stopping retinoids, I noticed my skin quality improving slightly to begin with and then decreasing markedly over a longer period of time.

Edited by Ben, 29 October 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[nickdino]

Yes, I mean less side effects (not as much redness and flaking) and better results. When I was using classic Retin-A I could only tolerate the 0.01%. I had tried the 0.025% but it made me look very red and splotchy. With the Micro, I can tolerate 0.04%.

Could you direct me to a product on iherb or comparable site perhaps? I live in holland, iherb is what i use most because number of products and low shipping costs