48 replies to this topic

[russianBEAR]

Doxylamine. Not a "supplement" but an antihistamine. Unlike diphenhydramine it doesn't build up a tolerance, and unlike tylenol PM doesn't leave you feeling like crap the next morning.

I've even semi-confirmed that it helps with my cognition the day after. It might not be the doxylamine in particular, but more a good night's rest. However, I have compared it to Ambien CR, and doxylamine results in better scores on memory tests the day after, hands down.

Personally, ZMA has never had noticable effects for me.

Melotonin is excellent for cat naps, so I only use it when I'm feeling ill and need to rest. If I take it nightly it always wakes me up in the middle of the night, and sometimes doesn't work at all :(

Doxylamine is not really a great substance IMO. It's basically not a sleep aid but more of a "sleeping pill"...good luck getting any rest at night when you decide to go off it, might as well just go for Nitrazepam then

Edited by russianBEAR, 11 March 2010 - 01:59 AM.

[neuromancer]

Any advice on how to deal with sleep deprivation most effectively?

I have pretty serious sleep deprivation on a regular basis and have developed some techniques for dealing with it. Unfortunately, none of them are very good for you. For one, I don't eat much. Keeps my stress hormones high, and the constant state of mild hunger keeps me more alert. A long the same lines I make sure not to dress warmly so as to be constantly slightly cold. It's best if I'm almost shivering. Once again it just helps keep me more alert and aware. I also try to shower mid-day instead of in the morning. Since showering gives me an alertness boost for a few hours. If I'm getting tired, I do some pushups, take a brisk walk around the block or up the stairs, or try to get in a friendly debate, which generally wakes me back up. Keeping busy in general is good. I also try to sit down as little as possible and stay in brightly lit areas. Going outside periodically helps as well. If I'm really serious about it I'll also drink more water than usual so I have to hit the restroom more often. The feeling of needing to pee and the frequent trips to the brightly lit bathroom environment help. They're little things but taken together they make a pretty big difference, for me at least.

Also, caffeine.

This isn't the advice you're looking for, but, many of the things you mention combine to make a recipe for insomnia. Now I don't know the context of your situation or how the problem started. But it looks like, intentionally or not, you have conditioned your body and mind such that when you feel fatigued or ready for sleep, you force yourself awake. Therefore when you actually try to go to sleep, your system responds by keeping you alert and awake. That's what you are training your mind and body to do.

In another post, you mentioned you had good sleep hygiene, but what you say here is in direct contradiction. Cold helps you go to sleep at bedtime. Skipping a meal before bed will help reset your circadian rhythm in one day - but every day? Caffeine carries it's own whole set of issues.

It bears mentioning that you can use the same classical conditioning to train yourself to sleep.

[Logan]

Glycine

[Logan]

Glycine

OOps, already mentioned. My bad

[Zoroaster]

We came out with a new sleep supplement at Cerebral Health called Somnulis. It contains Valerian Root, L-Tryptophan (precursor to melatonin), and GABA.

My understanding is that GABA doesn't cross the BBB. What's your rationale for including it in your supplement?

[Zoroaster]

This isn't the advice you're looking for, but, many of the things you mention combine to make a recipe for insomnia. Now I don't know the context of your situation or how the problem started. But it looks like, intentionally or not, you have conditioned your body and mind such that when you feel fatigued or ready for sleep, you force yourself awake. Therefore when you actually try to go to sleep, your system responds by keeping you alert and awake. That's what you are training your mind and body to do.

In another post, you mentioned you had good sleep hygiene, but what you say here is in direct contradiction. Cold helps you go to sleep at bedtime. Skipping a meal before bed will help reset your circadian rhythm in one day - but every day? Caffeine carries it's own whole set of issues.

It bears mentioning that you can use the same classical conditioning to train yourself to sleep.

I appreciate the concern but maybe I should explain myself a bit more here. I was listing techniques that I use when I am sleep deprived and yet still need to absolutely be alert during the day. If, for example, I haven't slept more than 3 hours a night for the last week and yet have a day where I need to spend 12 hours working in a clinic where I'm being assessed by preceptors and am trying to accurately diagnose patients, then those are the techniques I use to make sure I can still function and maintain alertness. I do not use those techniques every day or even close to it. They're only for dire circumstances. My general sleep hygiene is quite good.

[Zoroaster]

I've been using doxylamine for about a month straight now. At first, it worked really well with just two tablets. After a few weeks, I had to up the dose to four tablets to fall asleep. Now, it seems as though I have become tolerant to it, as I barely notice any effect with 6 tablets. Any suggestions?

That sucks tritium. Six 25mg tablets is a hell of a lot of doxylamine. I've never taken more than one personally. I would start weaning off it if possible. I've always found that it's a good idea to cycle sleep aids since most of them can lead to some degree of tolerance. There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread. I've had the most luck with melatonin, ZMA, and phenibut in the past.

[Logan]

We came out with a new sleep supplement at Cerebral Health called Somnulis. It contains Valerian Root, L-Tryptophan (precursor to melatonin), and GABA.

My understanding is that GABA doesn't cross the BBB. What's your rationale for including it in your supplement?

It doesn't matter that GABA may not cross the BBB, it still has a calming/sedating effect. Try it and you will find out.

[Zoroaster]

We came out with a new sleep supplement at Cerebral Health called Somnulis. It contains Valerian Root, L-Tryptophan (precursor to melatonin), and GABA.

My understanding is that GABA doesn't cross the BBB. What's your rationale for including it in your supplement?

It doesn't matter that GABA may not cross the BBB, it still has a calming/sedating effect. Try it and you will find out.

I've used over a kilo of it. It never did much for me. If I took too much it gave me tachycardia and made my whole body tingle. That was about it.

[mulvena312]

Have you tried music that puts you in delta state? Supplementation to fall asleep is going to cost $ for a long time and you might become dependent on it.

Try iMusic Rapid Recover or iMusic Body Sleep. That knocks my girlfriend and I out within 20minutes.

ZMA is a supplement I used to take that would make me fall asleep. Dont need it anymore with the music.

Edited by mulvena312, 14 March 2010 - 01:06 AM.

[stephen_b]

Glycine bears repeating.

[medicineman]

Remeron, aka mirtazapine seems to be quite a potent sedative without the dependence that benzos can cause....... have you tried that?

Edited by medicineman, 16 March 2010 - 03:33 PM.

[Tukotih Doji]

Wow, you sure have problems with sleep if you need all of that...
3mg of melatonin gets the job done for me...
If you use nootropics, try to get a fresh start by taking a break for a week or so.
Some nootropics are known to stay in your fatty-depots which make them able to have half-lifes of more than 12h, even if some aren't fat-soluble, there are still chances of them staying in your body for a longer time than expected...

[tjcbs]

I wake up way too early on a fairly regular basis, a good handful of valerian root capsules usually puts me right back to sleep, w/o drowsiness even if I only sleep a few more hours.

[curious_sle]

Mirtazapin has quite some withdrawl symptoms but hey it works pretty well.
I read here about Doxylamine and i tak some 4mg together with lenty of stuff like 1,5g valerian and gaba etc as well as melatonin. gives me 5-6 hours of sleep and i'm ok to very well the next morning though getting up is an issue.

Um, i don't always take Doxylamine and when i often need to sleep well i alternate with Diphenhydramine (which i don't like much, half a tablett is 25 and it's affecting me the next day) but still i am of course concerned about dependency/addiction... but since it is so low a dose and the REM sleep effects etc possibly offset by the valerian i guess it's ok for a while... doc wants to put me on antidepresiva but i'm not shure... i only have the sleeping trouble now and much much *much* less then before... anyone care to enlighten me as to the additcive potential of 4mg Doxylamine?

[elecdonia]

One of the reviews on iHerb indicates that Alpha GPC helped reduce insomnia and improve sleeping. Do any imminst members have any opinions about this?

I don't currently have alpha GPC in my stack, but have noticed that many people use it. Perhaps I should try it?

[chrono]

One of the reviews on iHerb indicates that Alpha GPC helped reduce insomnia and improve sleeping. Do any imminst members have any opinions about this?

I don't currently have alpha GPC in my stack, but have noticed that many people use it. Perhaps I should try it?

I never noticed this when I was taking Alpha GPC. And I don't recall hearing it mentioned in my reading as a significant effect, though I'm sure it's possible for some.

It's very expensive. I think there are many other things that are more likely to have an appreciable effect.

[awarren]

I haven't been on here in a very long time, but I found a "sleep stack" that is doing wonders for me right now. I am waking up an hour earlier (7.5 hours of sleep now) than usual without feeling like I need more.

1 glass of chocolate milk with ~6 grams of creatine
15 mg Zinc monomethionine
500mg Magnesium glycinate/lysinate
300mcg time-released melatonin

None of these alone improved my sleep. Zinc or melatonin separately made me sleep more but feel groggy. Creatine alone never improved my sleep much. Milk before bed never helped much either.

This is working for me right now, but I am not exactly sure what is necessary. I am going to try eliminating one at a time and see how I feel.

[livinglong]

I have tried almost everything with not any real answers. Trazodone made my heart beat irregular, every bothersome. Valerian gave a loose stool. Melatonin works for about 4 days then headaches start. Alerit (not sure name its OTC) was so good but with melatonin, so had to quite. Tylenol p.m. or the 650mg take 2. I have taken Amiben, Lunesta also. Amiben made me so short tempered and anxious. Lunesta worked the best, but I realize that these 2 prescriptions you don't get a real sleep, no rem, I think.
So I've done this and so far so good: I do a different one each night (except for Trazodone) Some work better than others but at least I am sleeping. I have chronic insomnia due to meds I must take. So there is no end in site to get a real nights sleep till I close my eyes in death. If anyone knows of a better plan please speak up.