291 replies to this topic

[Mindweaver]

So the Lion's Mane that I already purchased from Full Spectrum is probably not going to have any effect on me ?

?

[chrono]

Guru, seriously. Asking us to evaluate your unresearched purchases is not worth bumping a thread after 7 hours. There is no emergency here.

Swanson Full Spectrum Lion's Mane Mushroom hasn't been mentioned here before. They sell 60x 500mg caps of fruit bodies for $9 (33¢/g). "Full Spectrum" is copyright, so I think it's a product line rather than a descriptor of an extraction process. The label only says it contains fruiting bodies. I assume this means raw mushrooms, and is not extracted. I've e-mailed them for clarification.

On one hand, Swanson is a fairly mass-market company compared to the others mentioned in this thread, and does not specialize in mushrooms. This would cause me to be somewhat leery of the quality. But looking through my notes, I don't think we've mentioned a reliable source for raw (unextracted) fruiting bodies yet. Personally, I would still go for the Myco Essentials or Fungi Perfecti/Cordyceps products, but might use this as an adjunct if I wanted to take raw mycelium capsules.

Guru, for your purposes, this is fine.


Just for the sake of comprehensiveness, here are the other sources for (possibly) raw fruit bodies that I have in my notes:

Herbs and Wellness: $10, 60x 680mg (24.5¢/g) powdered organic. Out of stock since I found it.

Mushroom Patch: $30/lb (6.6¢/g) powder. Product heading says Lion's Mane, but the description says birch polyphore. Picture seems to be a low-res version of the Mushroom Harvest product pic (see #115). Did not respond to my e-mail 2 months ago.

Healthy Village/Herbal Advantage: $34.62/lb (7.4¢/g) powder. Essentially no further info, shows a pic of brown powder. Did not respond to my e-mail 2 months ago.

Would still be nice if we could find a good source for raw mushroom powder, as it's about ⅓ the price of the two capsuled products.

Edited by chrono, 26 June 2010 - 06:34 PM.

[babcock]

Would still be nice if we could find a good source for raw mushroom powder, as it's about ⅓ the price of the two capsuled products.

Back on post #77 I think I linked a place from BC that sells freeze dried LM powder by the pound. Think a pound was like 35 bucks. 7 cents a gram.

[chrono]

Back on post #77 I think I linked a place from BC that sells freeze dried LM powder by the pound. Think a pound was like 35 bucks. 7 cents a gram.

I think you're referring to the Fungi Health product you posted. I posted an e-mail I got from them a couple posts later, saying they use a hot water extraction process.

Seems like it shouldn't be so hard to find someone selling just the raw mushrroms -_-

[Colli]

Mycology Research Laboratories sells the raw mushroom in powder form, but it seems ridiculously expensive - £71.95 for 250g!

More info here: http://www.mycologyr...roduct=Hericium

They also sell tablets for considerably less money, but I prefer the idea of a bulk powder.

Edited by Colli, 28 June 2010 - 07:35 PM.

[chrono]

Good find. That's about 43¢/g at today's exchange rate. Their capsules are 78¢/g.

However, this isn't bulk fruit bodies:

MRL Ltd.´s Hericium erinaceus powder contains both mycelium and primordia (young fruit body) cultivated into a biomass that is grown on a sterilised (autoclaved) substrate.

The cultivation system is proprietary, allowing for standardised production of Hericium erinaceus. The powder biomass is then sealed in plastic containers.

The Hericium erinaceus is processed under the same rigorously controlled conditions that are applied to the manufacture of a conventional pharmaceutical. This ensures that each tablet contains 500g of the standardised Hericium product.

The tablets are film coated to protect them from moisture, thus preserving the quality of the product and ensuring a long shelf life.

This is very impressive. But if anything, it's more of a mycelium product; I imagine that if it only contains primordia bodies, it might be a small portion compared to the fully-formed mycelium network, and the relevant hericenone molecules might not have had time to biosynthesize yet. I'd guess it's essentially the same as the Myco Essentials product.

This company appears to be quite serious about mushrooms, and their prices are competitive with Myco Essentials. Especially if you live in the UK, it's probably worth considering.

I've e-mailed about US availability/shipping (all their distributors appear to be physician-only).

Edited by chrono, 28 June 2010 - 10:36 PM.

[Colli]

The bulk powder is definitely cheaper on a 'per gram' basis. However, I'm currently unemployed and £71.95 for 250g of the powder is out of the question, whereas I could stretch to £23.45 for 90 500mg tablets. Technically not as good value, but at least it would mean a much smaller outlay. Man, being out of work sucks.

I thought this product was worth mentioning as I believed it to be a combination of both the fruiting bodies and mycelium (and so all the effective parts of the mushroom). I did wonder if the fact that it contained young fruiting bodies would make a difference; as the primordia wouldn't have reached maturation, they might not have the same concentration of hericenones that the fully developed bodies possess. So I can appreciate that this is, in all likelihood, primarily a mycelium product.

[Pittguy578]

What do they mean by NGF

[Mindweaver]

http://en.wikipedia....e_growth_factor

[Mindweaver]

http://en.wikipedia....e_growth_factor

[chrono]

Just got an e-mail back from Swanson. They told me to "contact NOW foods directly about their product." Am I missing something? Is Swanson a subsidiary of NOW? They sell some NOW products on their website, but the Full Spectrum LM product (link posted previously) is clearly Swanson-branded.

They have some kind of auto-answer form letter customer service thing going on, so I'm not following up. I'm a little sick of companies who don't have the wherewithal to answer basic questions like "what part of the mushroom does your product contain?" -_-

[Colli]

Just got an e-mail back from Swanson. They told me to "contact NOW foods directly about their product." Am I missing something? Is Swanson a subsidiary of NOW? They sell some NOW products on their website, but the Full Spectrum LM product (link posted previously) is clearly Swanson-branded.

They have some kind of auto-answer form letter customer service thing going on, so I'm not following up. I'm a little sick of companies who don't have the wherewithal to answer basic questions like "what part of the mushroom does your product contain?" -_-

That's a surprise. I had no idea that there was any relationship between Swanson and NOW Foods.

Like Mindweaver/Guru, I have also been using the Swanson product. I bought it before I was aware of the superior benefits of mycelium-based products and because it was cheap. The first time I used it, I experienced a feeling of pressure within my skull. It wasn't altogether unpleasant - in fact, it kind of reassured me that the product was actually doing something. Silly and simplistic, I know! However, since that initial sensation, I haven't experienced anything else at all. I realise that LM (like many other nootropics) takes time to work and so the lack of any further sensations doesn't concern me. Nevertheless, it does irk me that I'm taking a product that appears to contain only the fruiting body part of the mushroom. I would much prefer to use a product that contain both the body and mycelium or at the very least the mycelium alone. Not to mention that I would also prefer the potency of a properly conducted extract, but in the absence of that bulk powder would suffice.

Chrono and Babcock, I appreciate the tireless effort you have put into this fascinating thread. It's certainly opened my eyes.

Edited by Colli, 29 June 2010 - 02:24 PM.

[Mindweaver]

Colli if you go about returning your product, let me know. I received mine yesterday and supplemented it before bed with Ashwagandha, and didn't really feel any difference on waking (same intriguing dreams as I was getting on ashwagandha).

[chrono]

Textbooks compare neurotrophic factors (like NGF) to watering a plant. They encourage neurons to grow in a certain direction, or area, or a little quicker/further. I remember reading that it takes at least 4-5 days before anything can realistically occur. And even after that, I would be pretty surprised if anything really noticeable happened, unless you're elderly or trying to repair some kind of damage that NGF is capable of fixing. Though I'd certainly like to be told the contrary by someone who's actually taking it.

I think it's tough to say that fruit bodies are definitely inferior to mycelium. The molecules aren't as active, but AFAIK there is no data available on the concentrations. So theoretically there could be many times more hericenones in the FBs that could make up for their lessened activity (though given the few studies I've seen, I doubt it). Both is definitely the way to go, if you can.

Way back in this thread rwac mentioned that a FB product he was taking seemed to make him slightly fatigued for a couple hours. Would be interested to hear if either of you notice anything like that.

[chrono]

Just got an e-mail back from Mycology Research Lab. They said to go ahead and order to the US, and the price of shipping is already included. Which is a little strange, that shipping to the US and within the UK is apparently the same price.

[Colli]

I think it's tough to say that fruit bodies are definitely inferior to mycelium. The molecules aren't as active, but AFAIK there is no data available on the concentrations. So theoretically there could be many times more hericenones in the FBs that could make up for their lessened activity (though given the few studies I've seen, I doubt it). Both is definitely the way to go, if you can.

Way back in this thread rwac mentioned that a FB product he was taking seemed to make him slightly fatigued for a couple hours. Would be interested to hear if either of you notice anything like that.

I will admit to feeling a little fatigued after taking a capsule of LM. It's nothing major - a slight feeling of tiredness that only lasts about an hour. When I think back to how exhausted Mentat made me feel, the LM induced fatigue seems incredibly minor in comparision.

[golden1]

I ordered 250grams of myceilum + fruit body powder from mrlusa and I've only been taking it 3 days(4grams a day), but I've noticed an obvious increase in energy(oddly compared to above posts). The first day it actually felt like I was on some sort of 100% natural feeling stimulant with no euphoria. I was actually moving faster and I cleaned tons of shit and got a lot of other work done. I took it with a low dose of alcar because normal doses make me too tired and cloudy feeling(oddly lol).

So far I'm pretty impressed, I have almost no brain fog at all.. my mind feels cleaner than ever. I've also noticed increases in quick thinking, cleverness, and music perception.

I'm pretty sure it is not placebo because I've taken a lot of different supplements and a great majority have had no worthwhile effects.

[chrono]

@golden1, thanks. I don't know why they didn't link me to MRL USA when I e-mailed them about US distributors. Maybe it's new. So without exchanging currencies, this stuff costs 31.6¢/g, compared to 37.5¢/g from Myco Essentials. S&H is about $8 from both.

That's interesting that you got clear mental effects from it. How long did it take before you noticed that?

Edited by chrono, 22 July 2010 - 01:30 AM.

[golden1]

I noticed the most prominent energetic effect the first day actually and it's somewhat decreased and stabilized now. I started noticing the quick thinking, cleverness, and music enhancement the next day.

Now I notice that my vision feels like it is better processed.. maybe like more depth perception(I feel like I know the exact, maybe not exact but much enhanced, geometry of objects and their relations to one another), certainly more vividness, and I notice smaller details now(like say a pebble driveway, looking closely I now notice the detailed textures of each pebble rather than just the "texture" of all the pebbles together.) It is like everything is in focus all of the time, as if I can absorb it all equally. It's really hard to feel like I'm describing it well, I don't know if most people feel like they had different vision as a kid, but what it feels like is that my vision is closer to how it was then(in a very good way).


I wish acetyl-l-carnitine didn't give me such a drowsy feeling at the end of the day. I might have to stop taking it even at lower doses, although the lion's mane definitely helped with that.. not enough to make me want to put up with it though. Maybe I'll start taking like 100-200mg alcar or something to see if thats low enough. I'm getting slightly irritated, which is really abnormal for me, nothing I can't brush off immediately though. I would say that the irritability is from the alcar dose though. I'm going to lower to 2 grams of lion's mane a day(from 4) though just in case it is part of the cause.

I'm thinking maybe it's re-optimizing my brain from all of the marijuana I smoked over time(still do, but it's actually less tempting on lion's mane since I get a lot of the sense enhancement effects without it).. or possibly fixed stuff from my mediocre/average nutrition in my past. Since I don't know how other people feel/see/hear and it's basically all subjective and relative I can't really be sure if it it bringing me to a normal level or above an beyond. I will say though that I've never felt deficient in any way, so that does make me feel like it would help anyone.

[chrono]

Interesting, thanks! Sounds like some very pleasant effects.

Like you said, I'd think about lowering your dose. 4g sounds pretty excessive, especially if you're fairly young and not treating a specific illness. From the studies and anecdotal reports I've seen, I think 1-2g is a better dose.

Also, maybe start a thread about ALCAR fatigue. I only recall one other person getting that effect (vrain, maybe?), and I'd be curious to see if we can figure out what might be causing it.

[chrono]

Here's another product. New Chapter discontinued their Mental Clarity product sometime around January. I assume this is the replacement, but don't know how long it's been out: New Chapter Lifeshield MindForce.

New Chapter® LifeShield® Mushroom formulas deliver tonic mushrooms’ whole protective shield through the combination of mycelium, fruiting bodies, spores, and their extracellular compounds. Each stage of a mushroom’s life cycle adds critical nutrients and protection for the mushroom.

2 caps contains:
500 mg Organic Lion's Mane (Hericium erinaceus)
160 mg Organic Reishi (Ganoderma lucidum)
100 mg Organic Cordyceps (Cordyceps sinensis)
100 mg Organic Poria Cocos (Poria cocos)
80 mg Organic Chaga (Inonotus obliquus)
40 mg Organic Reishi Fruiting Bodies & Spores (Ganoderma lucidum)
20 mg Chaga Sclerotia, Wild Crafted (Inonotus obliquus)

I e-mailed to confirm that it's the raw components and not an extract, and they just copypasted the above paragraph from the webpage. So I guess that's a yes. Still, this seems like a pretty good product. It's the only one besides the Fungi Perfecti liquid that has both fruiting bodies and mycelium. It also has 4 other species of medicinal mushroom (not sure what the distinction is in the two types of reishi and chaga, here). I prefer to combine ingredients in a ratio of my choosing, so I probably wouldn't buy this myself. But it looks a convenient way to get both parts of lion's mane.

iHerb has 60 caps for $23, which is $1.61/g (of LM); the most expensive product mentioned so far, I believe. They recommend 2 capsules (500mg) per day, which is a lower amount of LM than most products suggest, as well.

Edited by chrono, 22 July 2010 - 05:46 AM.

[chrono]

I just got an e-mail back about an interesting product. Healthy Village sells some very cheap Hericium powder, but I couldn't get a response from their web contact form. But I contacted the parent company, Herbal Advantage.

They clarified that their product is actually the mycelium, grown on organic brown rice, and not treated in any way. What's interesting is that it costs $34/lb, or about 7.4¢/g.

These guys aren't a mushroom specialty company like a lot of the other products here, so I wouldn't be as confident about their quality. Even so, this might be the first product I order, just because I'm on such a tight budget.

[mentatpsi]

Btw, if you guys want independent information on some of the particular mushroom in the new Mind Force formulation, i took the liberty of making a blog post on it awhile back. All research article, little opinion. Do enjoy.

Ripples from the Botanical Garden: Mind Force

The links are in the bottom towards ingredients.

Edited by mentatpsi, 22 July 2010 - 01:00 PM.

[mentatpsi]

Just got an e-mail back from Swanson. They told me to "contact NOW foods directly about their product." Am I missing something? Is Swanson a subsidiary of NOW? They sell some NOW products on their website, but the Full Spectrum LM product (link posted previously) is clearly Swanson-branded.

They have some kind of auto-answer form letter customer service thing going on, so I'm not following up. I'm a little sick of companies who don't have the wherewithal to answer basic questions like "what part of the mushroom does your product contain?" -_-

I have the bottle, if I recall correctly it's all fruiting body.

[antibambi]

Just browsed through this thread - very interesting stuff. Personally, I'm a little wary of messing around with NGF as I'm still young (23) and sharp, and would be worried of potential negative effects. Granted I haven't read every word of this thread, but do we know at a reasonably certainty that spiking our bodies NGF is a good thing to do? Is no one worried of possible repercussions or unwanted effects of this? I generally tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to messing with delicate hormones and growth factors, and just hope that with proper cardio, weight training, diet, sleep, vitamins/minerals, and a select few other supplements (including Reishi - see below), that my body can control its systems properly and maintain peak performance. I saw something mentioning that intellectual stimulation also elevated NGF, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that continually pushing your mind to the limit is the best and safest way to increase NGF and perhaps BDNF. Not to say that its not interesting, however, and I would certainly look at supplementing Lion's Mane or some other NGF-elevating supplement when I get older and more research is available.

I also want to take a minute to defend the Mushroom Science brand which has received some negative reviews in this thread. I recently did some similar research on mushrooms and extraction methods for Reishi mushrooms, and after much debate settled on Mushroom Science as my supplier. These guys are the real deal. They're located out of Oregon and focus exclusively on medicinal mushrooms, and maintain the opposing view of the FungiPerfecti line by primarily focusing on the fruiting bodies of various mushrooms. Now, for most medicinal mushrooms, the fruiting bodies are actually superior to the mycelium in terms of active compounds, for example in Reishi mushrooms. Beyond that, growing and cultivating the fruiting bodies of mushrooms is actually much more time consuming and expensive to the company than simply harvesting the mycelium. In other words, there is little benefit to growing the fruiting body (to a company) unless they truly believe that it is necessary to extract the best variety of compounds. If you read closely, it is always mentioned by Fungi Perfecti and the other mycelium suppliers that it is much more cost effective to simply grow and harvest the mycelium. Why, then, do their products cost twice as much as Mushroom Science? Primarily because the name "Paul Stemets" is on the box, methinks.

When it comes to Lion's Mane mushrooms, however, research seems to indicate that the mycelium actually contain more of the actives that influence NGF than the fruiting body. It appears to me that Mushroom Science probably knows this, but rather than change their entire operation, and selling point, for one mushroom (and not even a top seller at that), they have just continued with the fruiting body extract. Is the Mushroom Science Lion's Mane thus inferior to the others mentioned in this thread? Perhaps, but that should not be taken as evidence that this brand is anything less than professional.

With regards to Reishi, Mushroom Science's Reishi Gano 161 is one of the best supplements I have ever taken, and I've taken quite a few. I take two in the morning with OJ and have noticed a great sense of calm, vastly reduced allergy symptoms, increased energy and mental clarity, along with Reishi's well known immuno-supportive and anti-tumor/cancer effects. They also DO use more than just a hot water extraction method, they also utilize an alcohol process to get all the active constituents, as evidenced by this email I received from them:


Hey Mushroom Science,

I'm a little confused about your extraction process for the Reishi Gano 161 capsules. I bought them off iHerb, and have been very pleased so far, but nowhere on the packaging does it say anything about triterpenes or ganoderic acids. It only mentions the "15% non-linear B-glucans". It also only mentions the hot water extraction process, but from what I've read on your website and others, is that an alcohol extraction process is required as well. Did you guys change your extraction process, or does the labeling just not indicate it?

- Eric



Hi Eric,

Thank you for your interest in our product. You must have an older label. The new MushroomScience labels list 12% polysaccharide content and 6% triterpene content.

We do use a secondary hot water/ethanol extraction step in the manufacturing process but there is not enough room on the label to explain everything so we pick and choose.

Bastyr University in Seattle WA screened 30+ commercially available Reishi supplements when choosing a Reishi supplement to do clinical trials and research on and our extract was found to be the most bioactive and highest quality by far. I have no reservations at all when I say that Reishi Gano 161 is the highest quality Reishi supplement sold in North America.

Sincerely,
John D. Seleen
JHS Natural Products
MushroomScience

Edited by antibambi, 29 July 2010 - 07:45 PM.

[mentatpsi]

Alright... updates.

So I walked into a whole foods the other day and couldn't resist purchasing the new brand. It was a lot of money to some extent, but nootropics are a thing of wonder, and finding one that actually works... well... a true gold mine in my book lol.

Either way, I bought the capsules and tried one as I was on my way home. Let me just go on to explain one thing about the capsules that might not have been pointed out before engaging in the anecdotal:

The lion's mane is no longer just the mycellium, it is not both the fruiting body and the mycellium, about 250 mg of each per capsule. Leaving our desire to strive only for reliable mycellium no longer feasible, unless self-grown, and unless there's a company i hadn't heard about.


Anyways, there are definitive alterations that take place in the experience. I did feel a tiredness and a sort of mental fatigue once more that demotivated any long winded responses to various discussions. I am beginning to speculate that perhaps during the night is the best time to supplement this... after doing a bit of reading, I'm discovering that NGF plays crucial roles within sleep and REM. Here's an interesting article: Nerve growth factor enhances sleep in rabbits.

Still, even though the formulation has been altered to contain both the mycellium and the fruiting body, and I don't know how to quantify the ratio between the two, there's a definitive psychoactivity to the capsule.

To summarize:
Perception alteration
Cognitive slowing
small mellowing of mood
small increase of calmness

[golden1]

Alright... updates.

So I walked into a whole foods the other day and couldn't resist purchasing the new brand. It was a lot of money to some extent, but nootropics are a thing of wonder, and finding one that actually works... well... a true gold mine in my book lol.

Either way, I bought the capsules and tried one as I was on my way home. Let me just go on to explain one thing about the capsules that might not have been pointed out before engaging in the anecdotal:

The lion's mane is no longer just the mycellium, it is not both the fruiting body and the mycellium, about 250 mg of each per capsule. Leaving our desire to strive only for reliable mycellium no longer feasible, unless self-grown, and unless there's a company i hadn't heard about.


Anyways, there are definitive alterations that take place in the experience. I did feel a tiredness and a sort of mental fatigue once more that demotivated any long winded responses to various discussions. I am beginning to speculate that perhaps during the night is the best time to supplement this... after doing a bit of reading, I'm discovering that NGF plays crucial roles within sleep and REM. Here's an interesting article: Nerve growth factor enhances sleep in rabbits.

Still, even though the formulation has been altered to contain both the mycellium and the fruiting body, and I don't know how to quantify the ratio between the two, there's a definitive psychoactivity to the capsule.

To summarize:
Perception alteration
Cognitive slowing
small mellowing of mood
small increase of calmness

It's odd how I can get completely opposite effects from it than you guys..
I do get a very nice perception altering/improvement, like very good depth perception.. over all vision more like a child's.
But, My mind speeds up a lot and I get very uplifted and stimulated. I don't really get a sense of calmness, however I work towards increasing my overall calmness a lot so it's possible I don't notice it as easily.


Also to update on my last post: I haven't been taking it nearly as often, but I actually believe that it has had a lasting impression on my brain. I feel much more quick at thinking and able to subtly manipulate my vocabulary to form the best delivered jokes(seriously a noticeable plus haha. although always been good at it, it's definitely a decent amount better) and this ability to express things in a very distinct and unconventionally eloquent style also just helps better express myself in general. I with no doubt also have more ideas and thoughts, some of which are very interesting and novel. I also feel like I can empathize even better with people and get a better grasp on their train of thought to more accurately respond to what they are saying. It also seems to "make me" reconnect with people in the past who I've drifted away from, something that is actually pretty awesome. It's like I'm remembering how awesome people were that I kind of just lost contact with even though it would have been easy to stay in contact(I'm somewhat introverted in that I'm so content being alone that it makes me not bother to keep in contact with everyone except the people I know very well)

I'm just going to take small doses now seeing as I've already felt a great "upgrade", although it's probably somewhat unlikely in general to get lasting effects this noticeable.. as I feel like it would be known by now

I know someone will be thinking "you've clearly gone hypomanic/manic," but I have induced both of those states before(deprenyl+l-tryptophan, most likely as a result of way too much serotonin, gave me extreme mania with hallucinations. what a incredibly scary mind state, I could feel the insanity in the air and looking at my self in the mirror showed a warped perception that made me look very very insane and possessed) and this is nothing like either of them.
Hypomania ia nice though, as long as it doesn't last.

[mentatpsi]

You have an interesting reaction to it then, i'm not sure what's a normal response to NGF, but I think, being a compound that does what it does, it's going to have very individual responses.

Do you take only Lion's Mane or the New Chapter formulation? The new formulation has mushrooms like Reishi and a couple other which have known sedative effects... so it might be localized to them.

[golden1]

Well I also take a supplement with a 16 mushroom blend(for general health), including reishi. I use bulk lion's mane though.

I should mention that I also take psychedelics, so maybe it's possible that those different "pathways" are being reinforced by the lion's mane which makes for a noticeable effect.

Also, just to put this out there, I understand that there could be risks and all I'm going to say is that I am quite the risk taker.

[recitative]

I've tried Lion's Mane a few times, but it is just too sedating. Even taking it before going to sleep makes me drowsy the next day (500 mg of the Host Defense brand).

In the hope that my body will adapt and that I'll no longer feel sedated by it, I've decided to try taking Lion's Mane every night and to just do whatever it takes to power through the day (caffeine, ALCAR, etc.).

Has anyone else experienced and overcome this kind of sedation from Lion's Mane?