49 replies to this topic

[oehaut]

I've never been a big believer of the ketogenic diet, and i've lost all faith in it after a few week on this forum, gathering very interesting pieces of evidence.

Colpo post a new article reviewing some studies (I don't know if it is most) on the effect of ketogenic diet and cognition. Overall, it seems like ketogenic diet tends to slightly impairs mood and deteriorate cognitive ability.

Also, some of these studies, which some were metabolic ward, looked at weight loss and... again, no metabolic advantage was found from a ketogenic diet.

Overall, Anthony seems to be back at recommanding somewhat a zone diet, with low-GI/GL carbs of good quality, which I think is probably the healthiest way to make it in the long term - with some tweaking depending on the individual. (he used to be pro low-carb, non-keto tho)

I really like the fact that he points out how people can be dogmatic about diet, making it a close religious belives and being blind to anything else.

here, from the article

Because I can’t get inside the heads of all these people (and probably wouldn’t want to even if I could!), I can’t say with any scientific sense of certainty. What I will say is this: diets that are inherently unbalanced seem to be associated with more than their fair share of extremist behavior compared with more moderate plans (as an example, I’ve yet to see any noteworthy level of shrill behaviour from followers of “Zone” or “Mediterranean”-style diets). Ketogenic diets are characterized by extremely low-carbohydrate intakes that may alter serotonergic expression[Christensen L] and induce or exacerbate deficiencies in important minerals including potassium, magnesium and selenium.

Similarly, vegan and fruitarian diets, whose followers have also been known to engage in some rather whackopathic behavior, can induce various nutrient deficiencies, including those of B12 and essential fatty acids (both crucial for neurological health). Tom Billings has talked at length about the less-than-sterling conduct evidenced by die-hard followers of these regimens:

Virtually everything Billings has reported in his observations can also be applied to the low-carb movement. Like vegans, low-carbers often display an us-versus-them mentality, a negative feature that is of course hardly exclusive to diet sectarians. Human beings in general are imbued with this trait, something that politicians and other professional manipulators are never slow to exploit. Back in the Stone Age, such a trait may have conferred survival advantages by reinforcing group cohesion and resistance to hostile tribes. In our modern complex society, it allows leaders to exploit such phenomena as patriotism and nationalism to cajole populations into highly destructive wars, the true agendas of which are often very different from those presented for public consumption.

In the dietary arena, this us-versus-them mindset leads to the development of absolutist attitudes that cause dietary devotees to brand outsiders as inferior or even evil. In the vegan arena, this may translate to the belief that avoidance of meat is virtuous while those who eat meat are “bad” (indeed, “Meat is Murder” is a popular catchcry among the vegan animal rights movement). Vegans readily embrace and cite research that appear to support their beliefs, while research unsupportive of vegan diets is reflexively derided as being biased, corrupt, and the product of dairy/meat/egg industry-sponsored researchers.

Low-carbohydrate followers meanwhile, have been so thoroughly indoctrinated about the “evils” of carbohydrates that they frequently exhibit a phobic attitude towards this naturally occurring macronutrient. Seriously, I’ve read Internet posts where the author was fretting as to whether or not they should eat liver because of it’s carbohydrate content – a miniscule five grams of glycogen-derived carbohydrate per 100 grams of cooked liver! Low-carbohydrate ‘gurus’ have so successfully convinced many of their followers that extremely-low carbohydrate ketogenic intakes are superior for fat loss that many of these hapless devotees will often completely shun carbohydrates and endure constipation (a favorite topic of discussion on low-carb forums), repulsive breath and body odor, irritability, and numerous other unpleasant symptoms.

Anyway, worth the read, and digging the references.

Just sharing foods for thought.

http://anthonycolpo...._You_Crazy.html

Edited by Mind, 04 February 2010 - 09:08 PM.

[frederickson]

here, from the article

Because I can’t get inside the heads of all these people (and probably wouldn’t want to even if I could!), I can’t say with any scientific sense of certainty. What I will say is this: diets that are inherently unbalanced seem to be associated with more than their fair share of extremist behavior compared with more moderate plans (as an example, I’ve yet to see any noteworthy level of shrill behaviour from followers of “Zone” or “Mediterranean”-style diets). Ketogenic diets are characterized by extremely low-carbohydrate intakes that may alter serotonergic expression[Christensen L] and induce or exacerbate deficiencies in important minerals including potassium, magnesium and selenium.
Similarly, vegan and fruitarian diets, whose followers have also been known to engage in some rather whackopathic behavior, can induce various nutrient deficiencies, including those of B12 and essential fatty acids (both crucial for neurological health). Tom Billings has talked at length about the less-than-sterling conduct evidenced by die-hard followers of these regimens:

Virtually everything Billings has reported in his observations can also be applied to the low-carb movement. Like vegans, low-carbers often display an us-versus-them mentality, a negative feature that is of course hardly exclusive to diet sectarians. Human beings in general are imbued with this trait, something that politicians and other professional manipulators are never slow to exploit. Back in the Stone Age, such a trait may have conferred survival advantages by reinforcing group cohesion and resistance to hostile tribes. In our modern complex society, it allows leaders to exploit such phenomena as patriotism and nationalism to cajole populations into highly destructive wars, the true agendas of which are often very different from those presented for public consumption.

In the dietary arena, this us-versus-them mindset leads to the development of absolutist attitudes that cause dietary devotees to brand outsiders as inferior or even evil. In the vegan arena, this may translate to the belief that avoidance of meat is virtuous while those who eat meat are “bad” (indeed, “Meat is Murder” is a popular catchcry among the vegan animal rights movement). Vegans readily embrace and cite research that appear to support their beliefs, while research unsupportive of vegan diets is reflexively derided as being biased, corrupt, and the product of dairy/meat/egg industry-sponsored researchers.

Low-carbohydrate followers meanwhile, have been so thoroughly indoctrinated about the “evils” of carbohydrates that they frequently exhibit a phobic attitude towards this naturally occurring macronutrient. Seriously, I’ve read Internet posts where the author was fretting as to whether or not they should eat liver because of it’s carbohydrate content – a miniscule five grams of glycogen-derived carbohydrate per 100 grams of cooked liver! Low-carbohydrate ‘gurus’ have so successfully convinced many of their followers that extremely-low carbohydrate ketogenic intakes are superior for fat loss that many of these hapless devotees will often completely shun carbohydrates and endure constipation (a favorite topic of discussion on low-carb forums), repulsive breath and body odor, irritability, and numerous other unpleasant symptoms.

this is a lazy piece in my opinion. this guy is extremist himself in attempting to capitalize on the worst-case scenarios (as bolded above) of dietary protocols, that are not at all the norm for those on the diets. a well-designed vlcd can be considerably more nutrient-dense than the typical "balanced" (i HATE that term) diet, and does not make anyone more prone to micronutrient deficiencies, constipation, body odor, etc.

most intelligent vlcds include large amounts of cruciferous vegetables, leafy greens, and nuts that will leave people far from compensated. i can honestly say i have never encountered a vlc dieter with body odor and repulsive breath (exaggerate much?!?) resultant from their diet. and while i am not a big fan of vegan diets, most intelligent vegan dieters find a way to incorporate b-12 and efas into their diet.

[oehaut]

this is a lazy piece in my opinion. this guy is extremist himself in attempting to capitalize on the worst-case scenarios (as bolded above) of dietary protocols, that are not at all the norm for those on the diets. a well-designed vlcd can be considerably more nutrient-dense than the typical "balanced" (i HATE that term) diet, and does not make anyone more prone to micronutrient deficiencies, constipation, body odor, etc.

most intelligent vlcds include large amounts of cruciferous vegetables, leafy greens, and nuts that will leave people far from compensated. i can honestly say i have never encountered a vlc dieter with body odor and repulsive breath (exaggerate much?!?) resultant from their diet. and while i am not a big fan of vegan diets, most intelligent vegan dieters find a way to incorporate b-12 and efas into their diet.

He talks mainly about ketogenic diet tho, which are usually under 50g of carbs (under 30g for the induction phase), and don't leave that much place for large amount of vegetable and nuts.

But you are right that well-planned low-carb diet can be healthier than a "balanced diet"

This is anecdotal but it's obvious that paleo diet is not a cure all and that issue are emerging on it too.

http://freetheanimal...g-problems.html

I think the most important point from the article is the dogmatic attitude of many low-carber that has no place in science, and will impairs progress of knowledge, just like the low-fat dogma of the 80'. We, human, have this very bad tendency to see everything in black and white, and a strong confirmation bias tendency going on and, more importantly, a very big difficulty in admetting that we were wrong and changing of opinion. As Colpo pointed out, introspection is very uncounfortable, and not many of us practice it daily.

Edited by oehaut, 03 February 2010 - 04:59 PM.

[frederickson]

I think the most important point from the article is the dogmatic attitude of many low-carber that has no place in science, and will impairs progress of knowledge, just like the low-fat dogma of the 80'. We, human, have this very bad tendency to see everything in black and white, and a strong confirmation bias tendency going on and, more importantly, a very big difficulty in admetting that we were wrong and changing of opinion. As Colpo pointed out, introspection is very uncounfortable, and not many of us practice it daily.

i do agree with this sentiment. unfortunately, diet seems to be right up there with politics and religion when it comes to developing very strongly defended and immutable beliefs.

[DukeNukem]

I don't know anyone who follows or recommends a ketogenic diet, except under extra-ordinary conditions, such as if you have cancer.

Not sure who Colpo is trying to speak to with this article. Are more people on this diet that I'm aware of???

Edited by DukeNukem, 03 February 2010 - 06:09 PM.

[VespeneGas]

THE NEUROPROTECTIVE PROPERTIES OF CALORIE RESTRICTION, THE KETOGENIC DIET, AND KETONE BODIESMarwan A. Maalouf,¹ Jong M. Rho,² and Mark P. Mattson³
The therapeutic potential of calorie restriction and the ketogenic diet have been repeatedly demonstrated in clinical settings and in various animal models of neurological disease. The underlying mechanisms involve an improvement in mitochondrial function, a decrease in the expression of apoptotic factors and an increase in the activity of neurotrophic factors. Clinical applications of ketogenic diets have been significantly hampered however by poor tolerability and potentially serious side-effects [see below -VG]. Recent research aimed at identifying a mediator that can reproduce the neuroprotective effects of calorie restriction with less demanding changes to dietary intake suggests that ketone bodies might represent an appropriate candidate. Ketone bodies protect neurons against multiple types of neuronal injury and the underlying mechanisms are similar to those of calorie restriction and of the ketogenic diet. The present review describes the neuroprotective effects of calorie restriction, the ketogenic diet and ketone bodies and compare the molecular mechanisms of action of these interventions.

The authors' manuscript is available for free here. The serious side effect noted above was elevated serum cholesterol, which we could debate endlessly, but the review continues:

"The substitution of unsaturated for saturated fats was well tolerated and prevented the expected hypercholesterolemia in the majority of participants."

Definitely a good read if you have the time.

[oehaut]

I don't know anyone who follows or recommends a ketogenic diet, except under extra-ordinary conditions, such as if you have cancer.

Not sure who Colpo is trying to speak to with this article. Are more people on this diet that I'm aware of???

I haven't followed his blog for some while but I remember that Eades still believed (pretty sure in 2009) that most of the "magic" of low-carb happens when you get into ketosis.

Also, I remember not so long ago reading a comments from Dr. Kurt G. Harris, of the PaNu blog, saying he was most of the time in ketosis. In think Peter at hyperlipid is also on a ketogenic diet year long (very high fat, low-carb, low/moderate prot)

So if these guys preach ketosis, since they have many reader, i'm pretty sure a lot of these reader also believe that ketosis is warranted to get the results.

I'm not sure. And I don't know who this article was intended for. Maybe he was just using these exemple to show that extreme are never good idea.

Edited by oehaut, 03 February 2010 - 07:19 PM.

[oehaut]

THE NEUROPROTECTIVE PROPERTIES OF CALORIE RESTRICTION, THE KETOGENIC DIET, AND KETONE BODIESMarwan A. Maalouf,¹ Jong M. Rho,² and Mark P. Mattson³
The therapeutic potential of calorie restriction and the ketogenic diet have been repeatedly demonstrated in clinical settings and in various animal models of neurological disease. The underlying mechanisms involve an improvement in mitochondrial function, a decrease in the expression of apoptotic factors and an increase in the activity of neurotrophic factors. Clinical applications of ketogenic diets have been significantly hampered however by poor tolerability and potentially serious side-effects [see below -VG]. Recent research aimed at identifying a mediator that can reproduce the neuroprotective effects of calorie restriction with less demanding changes to dietary intake suggests that ketone bodies might represent an appropriate candidate. Ketone bodies protect neurons against multiple types of neuronal injury and the underlying mechanisms are similar to those of calorie restriction and of the ketogenic diet. The present review describes the neuroprotective effects of calorie restriction, the ketogenic diet and ketone bodies and compare the molecular mechanisms of action of these interventions.

The authors' manuscript is available for free here. The serious side effect noted above was elevated serum cholesterol, which we could debate endlessly, but the review continues:

"The substitution of unsaturated for saturated fats was well tolerated and prevented the expected hypercholesterolemia in the majority of participants."

Definitely a good read if you have the time.

Thanks. The document is quite long. I'm not sure I will have the time to read it all, but i'll try to get to the most important part.

[kenj]

Crazy Low Carb Freaks.... Way to shorten your Maximum Lifespan, and be miserable at the same time.....



.........*drum roll*...........

[cheesycow5]

I don't know anyone who follows or recommends a ketogenic diet, except under extra-ordinary conditions, such as if you have cancer.

Not sure who Colpo is trying to speak to with this article. Are more people on this diet that I'm aware of???

I was under the impression that you recommend a ketogenic diet.

[DukeNukem]

I don't know anyone who follows or recommends a ketogenic diet, except under extra-ordinary conditions, such as if you have cancer.

Not sure who Colpo is trying to speak to with this article. Are more people on this diet that I'm aware of???

I haven't followed his blog for some while but I remember that Eades still believed (pretty sure in 2009) that most of the "magic" of low-carb happens when you get into ketosis.

This is NOT what Eades believes. I've read everyone of his posts going back to his first one. He has never recommended a ketogenic diet, except maybe in special, unique cases that apply to very few people.

[DukeNukem]

I don't know anyone who follows or recommends a ketogenic diet, except under extra-ordinary conditions, such as if you have cancer.

Not sure who Colpo is trying to speak to with this article. Are more people on this diet that I'm aware of???

I was under the impression that you recommend a ketogenic diet.

Not at all.

I think there's some mass hypnosis where people see low-carb diet and their brain reads ketogenic diet. ;-)

[wieder]

I think there's some mass hypnosis where people see low-carb diet and their brain reads ketogenic diet. ;-)

Not only ketogenic, but wolfing down meat the way people slam down cookies and soda.

[oehaut]

This is NOT what Eades believes.

Hummmm could you find a relevant post where he states what he recommend?

I don't feel like going trough all of his blog, but i'm pretty sure Eades recommend around 50-70g of carbs a day.

EDIT: I'm looking at the protein power book right now, and the plan stops at Phase II with 55g. This is what he recommand for fat loss. Once fat loss is acheived, he says you can go up to 100g. So in his first book, he is clearly recommanding a ketogenic diet for weight loss.

Edited by oehaut, 03 February 2010 - 11:39 PM.

[Shepard]

Ketosis is an arbitrary line drawn through measured ketone concentrations. Ketone concentrations do go up when carbs are lowered, even if you're not technically in ketosis (>= 7mmol/dL). And, of course they go up at other times, too.

As much as Eades has talked about the metabolic advantage (which really only has any foothold during ketosis), and ketosis and autophagy, etc...it's hard not to get the idea that he isn't talking about ketosis. Even his new diet is basically a PSMF with a "sensible dinner".

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Ketone levels only stay elevated during the short term, even on a continual low-carb diet.

[cheesycow5]

I don't know anyone who follows or recommends a ketogenic diet, except under extra-ordinary conditions, such as if you have cancer.

Not sure who Colpo is trying to speak to with this article. Are more people on this diet that I'm aware of???

I was under the impression that you recommend a ketogenic diet.

Not at all.

I think there's some mass hypnosis where people see low-carb diet and their brain reads ketogenic diet. ;-)

What's wrong with a ketogenic diet?

[wieder]

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Ketone levels only stay elevated during the short term, even on a continual low-carb diet.

This is my biggest problem with the study.

1) They were starving the subjects rather than letting them consume as they wished.
2) The people who went on the low-carb diet were switching to a macro-nutrient composition their body was completely un-used to which is clearly understood will affect mood, fatigue, etc for a short while (2-3 weeks at most for most people)
3) They stopped the study at 28 days and specifically mention that the low-carb group was catching up but hadn't caught up yet.

And I also agree that people may be confusing a full on ketogenic diet with a diet that puts you into slight ketosis (40mg and higher such as what used to be suggested for epilepsy versus 5-10mg). It's not an on off switch.

[DukeNukem]

My carb intake is always under 80g / day. And even under 40g most days. I never achieve ketosis (I measured with the pee sticks 100+ times over the last 18 months). I think that can only be done under 10-15g per day -- ketosis = hardcore low-carb.

[Shepard]

Eh, ketostix are notoriously inaccurate. But, again, ketone concentrations don't stay elevated in the chronic state.

Just for the record, I think this is a pretty poor article for the most part. Anthony seems to be placing his personal issues on an entire community, and some of it is just nit-picking.

Edited by Shepard, 04 February 2010 - 05:14 AM.

[oehaut]

2) The people who went on the low-carb diet were switching to a macro-nutrient composition their body was completely un-used to which is clearly understood will affect mood, fatigue, etc for a short while (2-3 weeks at most for most people)

That's a very valid point. Altought, I think there was a 1 year study discussed. But a very good point for the short-term ones.

[oehaut]

Eh, ketostix are notoriously inaccurate. But, again, ketone concentrations don't stay elevated in the chronic state.

Just for the record, I think this is a pretty poor article for the most part. Anthony seems to be placing his personal issues on an entire community, and some of it is just nit-picking.

Yhea there seems to be some personal grudge going on there.

Oh well. Maybe I shouldnt have posted that.

I was thinking that the fact that he was presenting studies where no metabolic advantage were found (again) and discussing how diet can be close to a religious things was some good foods for toughts.

Edited by oehaut, 04 February 2010 - 12:32 PM.

[Shepard]

I do agree with him on both of those points, though.

[gregandbeaker]

My n=1 experience is that my body loves ketosis and does very well on sub 20g of carbs a day. I swing in and out of it all of the time these days as I average about 50g of carbs in the form of mostly greens and veggies. I don't think I walk around smelling like a bull elephant with dragon breath.

Skotonung has surveyed quite a bit of the research done on Ketosis and shared several of the studies with me recently. Sorry I don't have the url's to the actual studies, perhaps skot will throw them out there. The first study showed a decrease in postprandial lipemia, which has been brought up in other discussions here on imminst as a lingering concern about high fat diets.

Study: A Ketogenic Diet Favorably Affects Serum Biomarkers for Cardiovascular Disease in Normal-Weight Men
“Very low-carbohydrate (ketogenic) diets are popular yet little is known regarding the effects on serum biomarkers for cardiovascular disease (CVD). This study examined the effects of a 6-wk ketogenic diet on fasting and postprandial serum biomarkers in 20 normal-weight, normolipidemic men. Twelve men switched from their habitual diet (17% protein, 47% carbohydrate and 32% fat) to a ketogenic diet (30% protein, 8% carbohydrate and 61% fat) and eight control subjects consumed their habitual diet for 6 wk. Fasting blood lipids, insulin, LDL particle size, oxidized LDL and postprandial triacylglycerol (TAG) and insulin responses to a fat-rich meal were determined before and after treatment. There were significant decreases in fasting serum TAG (-33%), postprandial lipemia after a fat-rich meal (-29%), and fasting serum insulin concentrations (-34%) after men consumed the ketogenic diet. Fasting serum total and LDL cholesterol and oxidized LDL were unaffected and HDL cholesterol tended to increase with the ketogenic diet (+11.5%; P = 0.066). In subjects with a predominance of small LDL particles pattern B, there were significant increases in mean and peak LDL particle diameter and the percentage of LDL-1 after the ketogenic diet. There were no significant changes in blood lipids in the control group. To our knowledge this is the first study to document the effects of a ketogenic diet on fasting and postprandial CVD biomarkers independent of weight loss. The results suggest that a short-term ketogenic diet does not have a deleterious effect on CVD risk profile and may improve the lipid disorders characteristic of atherogenic dyslipidemia.”

Study: Body composition and hormonal responses to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.
“The few studies that have examined body composition after a carbohydrate-restricted diet have reported enhanced fat loss and preservation of lean body mass in obese individuals. The role of hormones in mediating this response is unclear. We examined the effects of a 6-week carbohydrate-restricted diet on total and regional body composition and the relationships with fasting hormone concentrations. Twelve healthy normal-weight men switched from their habitual diet (48% carbohydrate) to a carbohydrate-restricted diet (8% carbohydrate) for 6 weeks and 8 men served as controls, consuming their normal diet. Subjects were encouraged to consume adequate dietary energy to maintain body mass during the intervention. Total and regional body composition and fasting blood samples were assessed at weeks 0, 3, and 6 of the experimental period. Fat mass was significantly (P <or=.05) decreased (-3.4 kg) and lean body mass significantly increased (+1.1 kg) at week 6. There was a significant decrease in serum insulin (-34%), and an increase in total thyroxine (T(4)) (+11%) and the free T(4) index (+13%). Approximately 70% of the variability in fat loss on the carbohydrate-restricted diet was accounted for by the decrease in serum insulin concentrations. There were no significant changes in glucagon, total or free testosterone, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), cortisol, or triiodothyronine (T(3)) uptake, nor were there significant changes in body composition or hormones in the control group. Thus, we conclude that a carbohydrate-restricted diet resulted in a significant reduction in fat mass and a concomitant increase in lean body mass in normal-weight men, which may be partially mediated by the reduction in circulating insulin concentrations. Copyright 2002, Elsevier Science (USA). All rights reserved.”

Study: Ketones inhibit mitochondrial production of reactive oxygen species production following glutamate excitotoxicity by increasing NADH oxidation
"Dietary protocols that increase serum levels of ketones, such as calorie restriction and the ketogenic diet, offer robust protection against a multitude of acute and chronic neurological diseases. The underlying mechanisms, however, remain unclear. Previous studies have suggested that the ketogenic diet may reduce free radical levels in the brain."

[DukeNukem]

My n=1 experience is that my body loves ketosis and does very well on sub 20g of carbs a day. I swing in and out of it all of the time these days as I average about 50g of carbs in the form of mostly greens and veggies. I don't think I walk around smelling like a bull elephant with dragon breath.

I have no problem with a ketogenic diet, but I prefer to eat more vegetables. However, I do believe that a ketogenic diet is supremely beneficial for anyone with heart disease, brain disease, advanced diabetes (life threatening), and cancer.

That list is quite excellent. My only disagreement is eating sprouted grains. Although, sprouted/fermented grains is the best way to eat them, keep in mind this is how the Egyptians ate them, yet they still experienced serious health consequences (like tooth rotting) and well developed heart disease early in life (as shown through recent detailed MRI's of mummies). Bottom-line: grains are a net negative regardless of how they are prepared.

~~~~~

The news story below is a double-edged sword. It's good that people are not consuming enough whole grains, except that they're probably consuming too much unwhole grains (processed grains), so it's a wash. It's utterly ridiculous that medical wisdom still believes--bless their little hearts--that grains "prevent type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, and excess weight gain." Most people who follow their doctor's advice simply don't stand a chance.

For example, regarding heart disease:

Dietary Carbohydrates and Cardiovascular Disease Risk Factors in the Framingham Offspring Cohort
These cross-sectional findings support the hypothesis that a high GI diet unfavorably affects CVD risk factors and therefore, substitution of high with low GI dietary carbohydrates may have reduce the risk of CVD.
http://www.jacn.org/...stract/28/2/150

[Shepard]

However, I do believe that a ketogenic diet is supremely beneficial for anyone with heart disease, brain disease, advanced diabetes (life threatening), and cancer.

People with diabetes (particulary Type I, but also in advanced Type II) have to be especially careful with high levels of ketones. In those instances, it can be a life threatening situation.

[oehaut]

That list is quite excellent. My only disagreement is eating sprouted grains. Although, sprouted/fermented grains is the best way to eat them, keep in mind this is how the Egyptians ate them, yet they still experienced serious health consequences (like tooth rotting) and well developed heart disease early in life (as shown through recent detailed MRI's of mummies). Bottom-line: grains are a net negative regardless of how they are prepared.

For example, regarding heart disease:

Dietary Carbohydrates and Cardiovascular Disease Risk Factors in the Framingham Offspring Cohort
These cross-sectional findings support the hypothesis that a high GI diet unfavorably affects CVD risk factors and therefore, substitution of high with low GI dietary carbohydrates may have reduce the risk of CVD.
http://www.jacn.org/...stract/28/2/150

Are we sure that it is because of the grains that the egyptian suffered from these? I doubt this is the only reason.

High GI/GL are clearly to be taken out out of any healthy diet.

I know low/GI/GL are usually healthy compared to high Gl/Gi, but i'd like to see more studies comparing low GI/GL to other macronutriments (SFAs, MUFAs, PUFAs,) because so far most of the studies are mixing all carbs 2gheter. AFAIK, no study to date compare replacing SFAs with low GI/GL and looked at the outcome.

I'm not convince that in lean, insulin sensitive individual, low/gi/gl unprocessed whole-grain should be a concern eaten in moderation. People with NIDDM should probably stay away from them, as long as their HBa1C is high at least, and esp. if their postpandrial glucose is high after a meal containing some of them.

Edited by oehaut, 04 February 2010 - 04:51 PM.

[DukeNukem]

However, I do believe that a ketogenic diet is supremely beneficial for anyone with heart disease, brain disease, advanced diabetes (life threatening), and cancer.

People with diabetes (particulary Type I, but also in advanced Type II) have to be especially careful with high levels of ketones. In those instances, it can be a life threatening situation.

Every study I've seen shows profound benefits to diabetics (type 2) by reducing carbs. And, this makes sense, no? Why do you think ketones pose a problem to diabetics?

[gregandbeaker]

However, I do believe that a ketogenic diet is supremely beneficial for anyone with heart disease, brain disease, advanced diabetes (life threatening), and cancer.

People with diabetes (particulary Type I, but also in advanced Type II) have to be especially careful with high levels of ketones. In those instances, it can be a life threatening situation.

Every study I've seen shows profound benefits to diabetics (type 2) by reducing carbs. And, this makes sense, no? Why do you think ketones pose a problem to diabetics?

Ketoacidosis is something quite different than dietary ketosis. My understanding is that a complete lack of insulin in untreated/unmanaged diabetes can lead to unregulated neoglucogenesis combined with unregulated ketone production leading to dehydration and strong acidification of the blood. The key here being unregulated, uncontrolled diabetes and the failure of the pancreas to create any insulin at all.

A no carb diet was the preferred (only) method of treating diabetics prior to the ability to synthesis insulin.

[Skötkonung]

When discussing ketogenic diet, we should clarify that the diets used in the most KD studies are not always analogous to the ad lib KD employed by the lay person to lose weight (such as CKD or Atkins), or otherwise.

In most cases, study of the KD utilizes a the John Hopkins epilepsy protocol. The JH protocol is both severely carbohydrate and protein restricted - something like 8% of daily caloric value each macro-nutrient. Furthermore, it is also usually caloric restricted.

For individuals following an ad lib ketogenic diet with moderate protein (12+ % daily caloric value) the body gradually shifts away from the utilization of ketones and begins using glucose again (derived of course from gluconeogenesis). After several weeks, ketones are usually not detected in the urine or blood.

This was of course a big shock for me. In fact, in animal models, ad lib KD results in higher IGF1 and blood glucose than seen in a uncontrolled diabetic.

As for the paleo diet, it does appear at least according to isotope studies, that humans for a time lived as obligate carnivores. Perhaps eating a diet heavy in meat is the most paleo diet of all. Not sure if it has positive implications for longevity, though...

[Jay]

When discussing ketogenic diet, we should clarify that the diets used in the most KD studies are not always analogous to the ad lib KD employed by the lay person to lose weight (such as CKD or Atkins), or otherwise.

In most cases, study of the KD utilizes a the John Hopkins epilepsy protocol. The JH protocol is both severely carbohydrate and protein restricted - something like 8% of daily caloric value each macro-nutrient. Furthermore, it is also usually caloric restricted.

For individuals following an ad lib ketogenic diet with moderate protein (12+ % daily caloric value) the body gradually shifts away from the utilization of ketones and begins using glucose again (derived of course from gluconeogenesis). After several weeks, ketones are usually not detected in the urine or blood.

This was of course a big shock for me. In fact, in animal models, ad lib KD results in higher IGF1 and blood glucose than seen in a uncontrolled diabetic.

As for the paleo diet, it does appear at least according to isotope studies, that humans for a time lived as obligate carnivores. Perhaps eating a diet heavy in meat is the most paleo diet of all. Not sure if it has positive implications for longevity, though...

Do you have a reference showing that people on KDs reestablish glucose as primary fuel? The rising blood sugar could have another explanation - ketones cause peripheral insulin resistance (the body conserving what little glucose there is for the cells that actually need it). Also, could there be another explanation for the disappearance of ketones frm the urine (perhaps more efficient utilization of ketones?). It just strikes me as very odd that the body would waste 40% of the potential energy of protein to turn it into more glucose than it needs, especially when it doesn't do this to start. On the other hand, the reestablishment of glucose as dominant explains why the JH protocol (and Seyfried's brain cancer protocol) require calorie/proten restriction.

Edited by Jay, 04 February 2010 - 11:07 PM.