35 replies to this topic

[sdsgec]

Hi all.

I've recently been tested for my methylation type. It appears I'm an under-methylator, but I'm not sure what it all means and what I could be doing better with diet/supplement.

Psychologist and psychiatrist have been trying to determine what it is that's wrong. Was diagnosed ADD as a child but recently did a test which seemed to indicate my brainwaves are normal. Took antidepressants once as a teen, but have refused since as I don't want to mess up the biochemistry. Was obese up until 22, woke up and have been a fairly average weight ever since. Last year however I did go through many, many diets, a bit of bulimia and weight changes. I've been treating myself via diet, supplements and exercise for the past five years and I suppose this in itself may be OCD but I do freak out if I don't know where I'm heading.

Symptoms: Amenorrhea from 2005 to late 2009 (female obviously), speedy in mornings with a crash in afternoon (usually resulting in sleep), extreme fatigue in evening, depression and anxiety, mood swings/anger and procrastination, unemployment/can't hold a job. Taking Metformin 500mg once a day for insulin resistance.

I'll begin with my diet.

Up until recently, my diet pretty much consisted of oats, yoghurt, cottage cheese, fruit, lots of vegetables, fish, chicken, bran, stevia, tea and coffee, brewer's yeast and salt. I did try to exercise during this phase, however I was quite fatigued and often didn't feel like it. Also had acne/whiteheads develop around corner of mouth with oily skin which was extreme, as it's usually quite good.

Since then, I've had bloodwork results which indicate a high level of histamine and low level of zinc. During that blood test, I was consuming dairy and brewer's yeast quite a bit. Dairy was eliminated about a week ago and it's been a few days since brewer's yeast. Also, in an effort to reduce histamine foods I've cut out tomatoes. Waiting on compounding chemist to deliver zinc-methionine mix doc prescribed.

At the moment I feel quite dull and headachy. Yesterday I was sneezing and displaying flu symptoms which is unusual for me. So, there's a few things I'm wondering here...

1) How quickly do histamine levels increase/decrease?

2) Which foods are the worst for histamine? This data seems to be quite hard to come by and there are so many contradictions.

3) Is it possible that dosing with extreme amounts of histamine/glutamine foods can cause a temporary histamine elevation? How bad is that for me, and what are the symptoms?

Thanks in advance for all the help. Tearing my hair out.

[1kgcoffee]

Not an expert, but you could try MSM. It's cheap and safe.

[sdsgec]

Not an expert, but you could try MSM. It's cheap and safe.

Sounds good. I think I'll try that.

At the moment I'm only taking zinc and iron supplement. I was taking B12 to treat low levels for a while there, but it had Folic Acid which I understand is not good for my situation. But I'm also aware that Metformin doesn't help the B12, does it cause any other depletion?

I've also got the following, which tends to speed me up quite a bit, then I crash again. Anything here not good for under-methylators?

L-Methionine
TMG
L-Carnitine
PS-100
Choline & Inositol
Wild Yam Root
7-KETO
Vinpocetine
Ultra Cordyceps
PC-35
DMAE

Edited by missingblink, 06 February 2010 - 06:20 AM.

[Dorho]

Have you considered posting "regimen for undermethylation" (or something like that) in the regimens area? I think that would be helpful to you as well as others who seek a comprehensive approach to undermethylation issues.

[tunt01]

you should send a pm to user named "4eva" w/ a link to your regimen, and read some of their posts on this matter.

[sdsgec]

I'll look into posting this under regimen... is a double posting allowed? I'll modify slightly.

Also forgot to mention that I do have yellow hands which vary from time to time. I do eat a lot of pumpkin and carrots, but doc suggests this is part of the zinc deficiency - an inability to properly break down the food?

I did visit one doc who got very freaked out by it, he was worried about my liver... Which could be true. In the past I've had fatty liver. Not sure of the status now. I also had a polyp removed from my bowel when I was still quite fat.

[4eva]

SAMe is the best methyl donor. In the beginning its best to use SAMe, and then maybe after a month or two you can try methionine. But SAMe is more active and that helps in the beginning.

It can take as much as 6 months before histamine levels and methylation is working perfectly.

Histadelics need calcium and magnesium; maybe as much as 2 grams a day of CA, at least in the beginning if you haven't been supplementing.

You will never use nicotinic acid but only use niacinamide. You should also take methyl folate, at least in the beginning. Both niacin and folate can raise histamine levels if you take the wrong forms.

William Walsh of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center says that B12 can be problematic for some histadelics. If it seems to be OK for you then take methyl B12.

Too much p-5-p may cause problems. You might want to see if 100 mg. of p-5-p per day is enough. More than that might be too much. But with most supplements trial and error is usually the best advice.

Vitamin C is a natural anti-histamine.

Balancing zinc and copper is important but not always easy to do. I've known some histadelics who had high copper, but some can have low copper.

Riboflavin is important too (good for those with MTHFr SNP).

For anyone supplementing, benfotiamine is the best form of thiamin.

And you may get a B complex with methyl folate or you may have to use seperate B vitamin supplements to avoid niacin and folic acid.

For the first two weeks its recommended that you take take 400 mg. of SAMe twice a day. Then take 200 mg. twice a day. Take both SAMe and methionine away from food. When you feel better on either SAMe or methionine you will need to cycle either so your body is able to methylate on its own. I've seen posts where people take SAMe consistently and don't seem to get consistent results. One cycle to try is 5 days on, 2 days off.

Some people use the niacin flush test to see where their histamine levels are at. You need a 50 mg dose of nicotinic acid to do this. Take one 50 mg dose first thing in the morning before supplements or any food. A flush from 50 mg. means high histamine levels. A flush from 100 mg. means normal or balanced histamine levels. A flush from anything higher than 100 mg. means low histamine levels. And, you can overdo it to cause low histamine levels. You have to listen to your body to know when you are done with the loading phase and need to take a maintenence dose.

I think TMG is best for lowering homocysteine levels.

I think inositol is good for those with OCD issues.

You will need other nutrients as well; I mentioned those that are important for histadelia. Once you start supplementing you change your nutritional status and that can create imbalances. The B vitamins are important, minerals need to be balanced, etc, etc.

I don't think diet right now will make as much a change as supplements. If you have a fast metabolism then you can use diet to help slow down your metabolism. Usually histadelics are fast oxidizers. A fast metabolism means eating something like 4,000 calories a day and never gaining weight even though you're not all that active; this type usually has a thin build and a huge appetite. To slow a fast metabolism you should eat more fat and less carbs, especially carbs by themselves. Slow digesting foods can slow down a fast metabolism. But too much protein may cause a problem.

As far as histamine in foods, I don't know if you have to worry about that so much. Just keep protein levels reasonable. Metabolic Typing has informaation about diets for different types but different MT sources may use different labels (protein type vs carb type, sugar burner vs fat burner, etc.) Histadelics are usually sugar burners. That means they burn through sugar rapidly. And that's why they need to watch eating all carbs as a snack, for example. But MT will take about some other stuff (saturated fat vs unsaturated fat) and get into purines in different proteins. But I think supplements will work better in the beginning and changing your diet might be better to consider later on. I think taking supplements will be easier than trying to sort out what type of diet is best for you using MT information. IF you can find an MT practioner then that would be good.

But searching for information about fast oxidizers or sugar burners under MT may be another source of information for you to help you piece together your nutritional supplement needs.

Edited by 4eva, 06 February 2010 - 03:11 PM.

[Dorho]

Thank you very much for that post, 4eva.

I think I'm a slow methylator too and I've been using the superb Thorne Research Basic B-complex (link) as well as sublingual methylcobalamin to deal with the issue. I've also tried a 100 mg dose of SAM-e but I think it gave me anxiety. I might try it again just to be sure.

[4eva]

Thank you very much for that post, 4eva.

I think I'm a slow methylator too and I've been using the superb Thorne Research Basic B-complex (link) as well as sublingual methylcobalamin to deal with the issue. I've also tried a 100 mg dose of SAM-e but I think it gave me anxiety. I might try it again just to be sure.

I'm pretty sure I read about someone (else) who seemed to fit the under-methylator profile but reacted to SAMe with anxiey or the jitters. I think it might be about excess calcium which is actually caused by high copper. High calcium can case sympathetic dominance, or the fight or flight mode. The symptoms can be excess sweating, adrenaline rush, poor digestion, rapid heart rate, etc.

Excess calcium is usually the culprit if you have a rapid and strong heart rate. I don't know if that is part of your symptoms. (Whereas excess magnesium might be the problem if your heart is beating fast but its not so strong or pronounced.)

How much zinc are you taking? A dose of about 60 to 80 mg per day will chelate copper. You need calcium but might hold off supplementing it now; and you might try focusing on lowering copper levels. Vitamin C, manganese and molybednum can also help lower copper.

I think SAMe is better than those other methyl donors.

Thats what I would suggest you try; though, its hard to know for sure.

[sdsgec]

SAMe is the best methyl donor. In the beginning its best to use SAMe, and then maybe after a month or two you can try methionine. But SAMe is more active and that helps in the beginning.

It can take as much as 6 months before histamine levels and methylation is working perfectly.

Histadelics need calcium and magnesium; maybe as much as 2 grams a day of CA, at least in the beginning if you haven't been supplementing.

You will never use nicotinic acid but only use niacinamide. You should also take methyl folate, at least in the beginning. Both niacin and folate can raise histamine levels if you take the wrong forms.

William Walsh of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center says that B12 can be problematic for some histadelics. If it seems to be OK for you then take methyl B12.

Too much p-5-p may cause problems. You might want to see if 100 mg. of p-5-p per day is enough. More than that might be too much. But with most supplements trial and error is usually the best advice.

Vitamin C is a natural anti-histamine.

Balancing zinc and copper is important but not always easy to do. I've known some histadelics who had high copper, but some can have low copper.

Riboflavin is important too (good for those with MTHFr SNP).

For anyone supplementing, benfotiamine is the best form of thiamin.

And you may get a B complex with methyl folate or you may have to use seperate B vitamin supplements to avoid niacin and folic acid.

For the first two weeks its recommended that you take take 400 mg. of SAMe twice a day. Then take 200 mg. twice a day. Take both SAMe and methionine away from food. When you feel better on either SAMe or methionine you will need to cycle either so your body is able to methylate on its own. I've seen posts where people take SAMe consistently and don't seem to get consistent results. One cycle to try is 5 days on, 2 days off.

Some people use the niacin flush test to see where their histamine levels are at. You need a 50 mg dose of nicotinic acid to do this. Take one 50 mg dose first thing in the morning before supplements or any food. A flush from 50 mg. means high histamine levels. A flush from 100 mg. means normal or balanced histamine levels. A flush from anything higher than 100 mg. means low histamine levels. And, you can overdo it to cause low histamine levels. You have to listen to your body to know when you are done with the loading phase and need to take a maintenence dose.

I think TMG is best for lowering homocysteine levels.

I think inositol is good for those with OCD issues.

You will need other nutrients as well; I mentioned those that are important for histadelia. Once you start supplementing you change your nutritional status and that can create imbalances. The B vitamins are important, minerals need to be balanced, etc, etc.

I don't think diet right now will make as much a change as supplements. If you have a fast metabolism then you can use diet to help slow down your metabolism. Usually histadelics are fast oxidizers. A fast metabolism means eating something like 4,000 calories a day and never gaining weight even though you're not all that active; this type usually has a thin build and a huge appetite. To slow a fast metabolism you should eat more fat and less carbs, especially carbs by themselves. Slow digesting foods can slow down a fast metabolism. But too much protein may cause a problem.

As far as histamine in foods, I don't know if you have to worry about that so much. Just keep protein levels reasonable. Metabolic Typing has informaation about diets for different types but different MT sources may use different labels (protein type vs carb type, sugar burner vs fat burner, etc.) Histadelics are usually sugar burners. That means they burn through sugar rapidly. And that's why they need to watch eating all carbs as a snack, for example. But MT will take about some other stuff (saturated fat vs unsaturated fat) and get into purines in different proteins. But I think supplements will work better in the beginning and changing your diet might be better to consider later on. I think taking supplements will be easier than trying to sort out what type of diet is best for you using MT information. IF you can find an MT practioner then that would be good.

But searching for information about fast oxidizers or sugar burners under MT may be another source of information for you to help you piece together your nutritional supplement needs.

Wow, what a wealth of information. Thanks!

OK, I'll start with the SAMe. I tend to order from iHerb, so does this one get the tick? http://www.iherb.com...ablets/123?at=0

I can't seem to find 50mg of the Niacin (is nicotinic acid the same thing?), will I be able to just break the capsule open and take half without it spoiling for another day?

At one point my B12 was so low that doc gave me injections. That gave me a HUGE appetite, and a burst of energy for a couple days, which quickly wore off. I was taking huge doses of B12 sub-lingually but they contained Folic Acid so I let that go. I might try taking some B12 without Folic Acid too, see how goes.

My metabolism is naturally quite slow, and tendency to gain weight very easily. But, due to conscious effort to keep active and maintain healthy eating habits, I'm OK, but carrying some fat which I'd rather not.

2009 was an extreme year for me, started off on a stress roller coaster with shitty job, and eating plenty of carbs, dabbling with bulimia... which meant any illegal food I could find. I then lost the job and went through depression and doc suggested low carb. So I hopped on the bandwagon and got myself semi-together, but I was so tired, still obsessive about food and depressive.

Then moved onto a low carb/low fat diet which boosted my energy, but I seemed to have less lasting energy. Where before I religiously went for a walk every morning on an empty stomach, feeling depressed the whole way, the low-fat diet made me happier, but it was harder to get going.

Finally I added dairy in about Nov. I did gain muscle but fat too, and as I say the pimples really bothered me. Now back to low fat, no dairy and losing some of the muscle but improvement in night time mood and energy, and willpower to walk a distance. But still collapsing into bed after lunch.

I'm wondering if I should in fact be adding more protein to the mix and less fruit/veg? Have had trouble with constipation when consuming protein.

I'm in Sydney Australia if anyone knows of one. But I'll be doing an MT search regardless.

Thanks once again for all the help.

[4eva]

I missed the part about metformin. Histadelics are considered to have in simple terms a sulfur deficiency. Sulfur is needed to make insulin. Histadelics can be prone to diabetes later in life. (Methionine and SAMe are two sulfur containing amino acids.)

Your histamine levels are high because of how your body methylates. The main method your body gets rid of histamine is through methylation; but, epinephrine can also lower histamine levels (epi pens). So it is not uncommon for histadelics to have wild swings in energy levels; sometimes being hyper and bouncing off the wall and then later that day feeling exhausted. Your adrenaline levels can fluctuate as your body tries to regulate histamine (which isn't being regulated properly by methylation).

And histadelics are known for some deep and dark depression. Lowering histamine can definitely help with depression.

This site has some info on MT and diet.
http://www.formerfat...stine-earl.html

This guy's book is OK. I have it; its not great. But there aren't that many books on MT. This site should help you get some info so you can do a targeted search since MT is a generic term.
http://www.bloodph.c...icNutrition.asp

There are other sources than this one for an MT questionnaire. I just found this one quickly so I'm not sure how detailed it is.
http://www.ppssucces...63/Default.aspx

That iherb SAMe should be fine.

I know Twinlabs has a 50 mg niacin supplement. (It costs less than $5 in the States.) You want one that has the warning on it about flushing. That tells you it is nicotinic acid and not a slow release form. But that is for the niacin flush test which you can try but you should feel better with the supplements. I think histadelics can see pretty quick improvement in the beginning as histamine levels go down.

[sdsgec]

Interesting.

So so you think simply supplementing Methionine and SAMe (and others) will overcome the mood swing and promote proper regulation? Or am I sort of stuck with the ups and downs? I do prefer it when I'm high and getting things done, so dropping to the "don't give a shit, time to sleep" state is really irritating. I do tend to get out of Flow pretty quick, so I'm always fearful of my downs. I don't get darkly slit-my-wrists depressed, but when I don't have a mission it's a very isolating and overwhelming.

I'll take a look for 50mg flushing Niacin locally, should be doable.

Thanks for the links. I'll take a look.

Edited by missingblink, 08 February 2010 - 01:18 AM.

[Animal]

That sounds like a mood disorder rather then simply a methylation issue. Possibly even rapidly cycling bipolar II so I would be careful with the SAMe, especially if you intend to take 800mg per day.

[4eva]

Interesting.

So so you think simply supplementing Methionine and SAMe (and others) will overcome the mood swing and promote proper regulation? Or am I sort of stuck with the ups and downs? I do prefer it when I'm high and getting things done, so dropping to the "don't give a shit, time to sleep" state is really irritating. I do tend to get out of Flow pretty quick, so I'm always fearful of my downs. I don't get darkly slit-my-wrists depressed, but when I don't have a mission it's a very isolating and overwhelming.

I'll take a look for 50mg flushing Niacin locally, should be doable.

Thanks for the links. I'll take a look.

Methylation effects neurotransmitters, speficially dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine. I think you should feel better from taking methyl donor supplements. Histamine is also a neurotransmitter and can effect your mood. The catecholamines can effect your energy level and motivation. People with COMT SNP over methylate and they can have high DA, NE and E levels. So normal methylation means your neurotransmitters will be at more normal levels.

Would you say you have nervous energy at times when you're "getting things done?" Because my understanding is that your body is regulating (or lowering) your histamine levels with increases in epinephrine. E would make you feel energetic but also nervous. So if you have anxiety that should be better too. But your adrenals have limited amounts of E, so you do eventually have to crash.

[sdsgec]

Yep. It's definitely a nervous energy.

Basically my life at the moment revolves around me trying to get my head around the mess my parents have accumulated. Mother is a hoarder and Dad is pretty messy.

So, every time I meet a big task or challenge such as cleaning up an entire room I fear that it won't get done. That's the nervousness which drives me. I'm also pretty easily distracted, so I could end up bypassing the stressful activity for something less active like computer work. Either way I'm usually pretty speedy in the mornings and always freak myself out with a massive list of things to do.

If we're supposing a possible bi-polar disorder here, I'd consider it to be when I'm out of the Flow state and aimless. I'm still energetic in the mornings but am less able to affect the tasks in life. I tend to think more than act on things.

Lunch to afternoons are when I really have to watch myself and make sure I stay focused otherwise I will sleep. Night-times are always pretty bleak and unproductive. I sort of just 'hang' in an aimless, apathetic state with little energy.

Currently seeing a psychologist who doesn't know anything about methylation and is pretty ready to dismiss it as another fad of mine. But anyhow, I'm willing to give it a go and risk the SAMe. What's the worst that could happen? Get lots more done?


Methylation effects neurotransmitters, speficially dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine. I think you should feel better from taking methyl donor supplements. Histamine is also a neurotransmitter and can effect your mood. The catecholamines can effect your energy level and motivation. People with COMT SNP over methylate and they can have high DA, NE and E levels. So normal methylation means your neurotransmitters will be at more normal levels.

Would you say you have nervous energy at times when you're "getting things done?" Because my understanding is that your body is regulating (or lowering) your histamine levels with increases in epinephrine. E would make you feel energetic but also nervous. So if you have anxiety that should be better too. But your adrenals have limited amounts of E, so you do eventually have to crash.
[/quote]

[4eva]

Night-times are always pretty bleak and unproductive. I sort of just 'hang' in an aimless, apathetic state with little energy.

Currently seeing a psychologist who doesn't know anything about methylation and is pretty ready to dismiss it as another fad of mine. But anyhow, I'm willing to give it a go and risk the SAMe. What's the worst that could happen? Get lots more done?

Histadelics are known to be light sleepers. I'm not sure if you are talking about sleep or just your evenings before you go to bed.

I think supplements can help you but it takes some skill to get all of the deficiencies and imbalances corrected. Optimum nutrition means ALL nutrients are at optimum levels, or very close to optimum levels. There are a lot of nutrients the body needs so supplementing can be a highly complex process. A good doctor is important because this process is so complex.

But you should be able to tell in he beginning if the supplements are helping you. Most supplements work in the beginning (honeymoon phase) if you need them. After some time, though, they may not seem to produce the same incremental benefits. I think sometimes it can be about augmenting nutrients that are needed and not being supplemented or supplemented enough.

I think psychologists are like any other type of specialist: they see things only from their own unique and narrow perspective. Surgeons think surgery is the only answer, radiologists think radiation therapy is the best approach, etc. But if you come to understand that some of your problems are biological in nature that might help you feel better about yourself and your limitations with fluctuating energy levels and motivation and ability to focus on tasks. (And that understanding can allow you to focus only on psychological problems in therapy instead of thinking you have so many psychological issues that must be the cause of your problems with motivation and energy.) I had low energy for years and didn't realize it and didn't know why. I think I focused too much time in therapy trying to figure out the psychological cause of my problems with motivation when there was a biological explanation. I was relieved to understand I had a (physical) health problem that caused my lack of motivation and low energy levels. I think it might help you to understand the biological aspect of your problems when your therapist wants to make everything about psychology and your childhood, and our issues, hangups, etc. So, I wouldn't expect a therapist to care about methylation or even chemical imbalances in anything more than a vague general (lay person's) awareness. Biological problems are not the focus of how therapists make a living, so they can be oblivious to that stuff.

[sdsgec]

Very well said. Even from a psychological viewpoint, the therapists should support biological awareness. In a way it's a form of CBT.

I'm usually an OK sleeper, but lately I've been a bit disturbed. I believe it's because I'm not doing as much exercise. That's intentional because I don't want my to tax my brain with unnecessary fatigue when I'm cleaning up this giant mess. Otherwise I've yet to get an apnea test but that's something I'd be interested in because both parents have it, one uses a machine. And I do sleep talk.

Luckily I have a GP who is very wiling to do all the necessary tests. She actually put me on to methylation.

Has your low energy been turned around by supplementing? How long did it take, and was it a noticeable change? Doc says it'll take 3 months to see a difference.

I got the under-methylation formula today, and I'll post the ingredients and amounts as soon as I can. Interesting it's to be taken post-meal even though it contains methionine.

[4eva]

Has your low energy been turned around by supplementing? How long did it take, and was it a noticeable change? Doc says it'll take 3 months to see a difference.

I got the under-methylation formula today, and I'll post the ingredients and amounts as soon as I can. Interesting it's to be taken post-meal even though it contains methionine.

No, I still have low energy and I've been doing this for several years. I have developed numerous deficiencies and imbalances (from supplementing) that have caused a variety of symptoms. That's why I try to mention to people how hard it is achieve optimum nutrition. Every time I figure out the cause of some symptom or symptoms and correct that I develop another problem. I've learned the hard way not to assume anything. Like not to assume I'm taking enough vitamin C, for example, and try testing a higher dose from time to time maybe. I can almost be paranoid about it. Its a balancing act: a rather complicated balancing act.

I try to keep track of my supplements and dosages, particular any changes in dosages, and the symptoms I am experiencing. That way I have a record to look at to help me see when some symptom started relative to what I was taking.

But supplementing some nutrients may cause other nutrients to be deficient or imbalanced. Its a slow process of elimination trying to correct every single deficiency or imbalance.

I've read that methionine should be taken away from meals. I tend to think that if you are supplementing good amounts of an amino, more than any diet would provide, that might make enough of a difference so that taking it with meals is OK. But I'm just assuming that. You might want to experiment with when you take it if you don't feel it is having enough impact for you. A lot of this process is experimenting and trial and error process. No one can know how much you need of any nutrient because we are all different. Who knows how severe a deficiency or how long you've had it a deficiency. So its good to try changing things up if you don't feel things are working that well for you.

I think your doctor's estimate of 3 months seems reasonable but that's in a perfect world.

[OneScrewLoose]

4eva, you seem to be taking a bunch of symptoms that could be caused by any number of causes and attribting everything to some sort of relation with histamine levels. You act as if getting her histamine levels under control (and there isn't any real good research on the effect of high histamine levels)/fixing methylation, that all these problems would go away. It could, or it could not, but you're applying way to much certainty here. This is the some narrow viewpoint that you are complaining about. Histadelia is one of those things on the internet, along with Candida and other things, that have been used to explain every possible ailment. She has a whole host of problems that could have numerous causes.

For example, I had high homocysteine, and took the pro-methylation road to bring it down. It went down and I felt better, but not anywhere near cured. Just because methylation was your main problem, that doesn't mean it's her's. Like I said, it could be, but that's there's just too much certainty in this post.

I had the same mood problems as you do, and Lamictal changed this and my life. Don't make the mistake of a false distinction between natural and artifical; they are all just chemicals that go in the body. I would look into prescriptions just as well as the route you are taking here. Just because you had a bad experience with one doesn't mean they are all useless. I went through 30 before I found what really works.

Also, as far as the SAM-E, I took it for a while and then stopped. When I started again, even 100mg would make me really anxious. This was when I was on methylfolate/TMG for methylation (I later found out that regular forms of B vitamins were enough to bring down my homocysteine). I now take it again with no problem, and am no longer on methylfolate nor TMG. I am going to guess that it was the combo with methylfolate that caused the problem (maybe overloading the system and causing too much methylation?). I noticed your B-Complex has methylfolate. You can ditch that for a few days and then try the SAM-E. Also, it would be wise to get your homocysteine tested. This is probably a better marker of methylation than histamine. And be careful with methionine. Methionine is the product of homocysteine breakdown. Adding this could interfere with the breakdown of homocysteine, impeding methylation (google folate cycle). I remember a few posts/threads on here discussing this, with some studies showing that methionine did indeed increase hc levels (use the forum search function).

One more thing, you make this rediculous notion that somehow therapy isn't valuable if there is an underlying biological cause. Our bodies don't exactly work like that. If we go through some sort of sickness, that's going to have effects on our psyche. Likewise, thinking can have physical effects on our body (i.e. placebo effect). This isn't an either/or proposition; a person should make use of any and all tools available in the toolbox they have with them.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 10 February 2010 - 01:40 AM.

[4eva]

4eva, you seem to be taking a bunch of symptoms that could be caused by any number of causes and attribting everything to some sort of relation with histamine levels. You act as if getting her histamine levels under control (and there isn't any real good research on the effect of high histamine levels)/fixing methylation, that all these problems would go away. It could, or it could not, but you're applying way to much certainty here. This is the some narrow viewpoint that you are complaining about. Histadelia is one of those things on the internet, along with Candida and other things, that have been used to explain every possible ailment. She has a whole host of problems that could have numerous causes.

Where did I make the assumption that the OP had a histamine problem? The thread starts with the OP saying that her doctor told her she had an undermethylation problem. She asked how long it would it take for her histamine levels to change.

I think you are the one making inappropriate assumptions here. And those assumptions are about me (personally) even though I am not the topic of this thread.

"This is the some narrow viewpoint that you are complaining about."

Where am I complaining about some narrow viewpoint?

I think appropriate behavior here means you limit your comments to the topic of the thread and avoid comments directed at individual posters. If you don't agree with my post you can disagree with the content of my post; but comments directed at me and my actions here are not appropriate.

[Animal]

I think appropriate behavior here means you limit your comments to the topic of the thread and avoid comments directed at individual posters. If you don't agree with my post you can disagree with the content of my post; but comments directed at me and my actions here are not appropriate.

Yes, but obviously you and your actions are directly correlated with the content of your posts, so making a distinction about where a comment is 'directed' is superfluous.

It is not you who decides what is 'appropriate' on these forums but the administrators, and as long as no personal insults have been made, especially vindictive ones; then no rules have been broken. Instead of hiding behind what you deem 'appropriate', maybe you could address the legitimate issues that OneScrewLoose has raised.

Where am I complaining about some narrow viewpoint?

Oh and if you're really that unaware of the content of your own posts, you mention specialists as having " their own unique and narrow perspective" which precludes all other forms of treatment.

[4eva]

I think appropriate behavior here means you limit your comments to the topic of the thread and avoid comments directed at individual posters. If you don't agree with my post you can disagree with the content of my post; but comments directed at me and my actions here are not appropriate.

Yes, but obviously you and your actions are directly correlated with the content of your posts, so making a distinction about where a comment is 'directed' is superfluous.

It is not you who decides what is 'appropriate' on these forums but the administrators, and as long as no personal insults have been made, especially vindictive ones; then no rules have been broken. Instead of hiding behind what you deem 'appropriate', maybe you could address the legitimate issues that OneScrewLoose has raised.

Where am I complaining about some narrow viewpoint?

Oh and if you're really that unaware of the content of your own posts, you mention specialists as having " their own unique and narrow perspective" which precludes all other forms of treatment.

You want to question my behavior here? How is your post appropriate?

"That sounds like a mood disorder rather then (sic) simply a methylation issue. Possibly even rapidly cycling bipolar II so I would be careful with the SAMe, especially if you intend to take 800mg per day."

You disagree with a diagnosis by a doctor and provide no basis for that argument. You seem to be "suggesting" your own diagnosis. I think your suggestion of a diagnosis is questionable since it seems possible to me that you failed to read the opening post and maybe the whole thread carefully.

I think your post was inappropriate and I explained why.

I don't see any information in onescrewloose's post or yours that speaks to why methylation is not a valid medical problem.

"It is not you who decides what is 'appropriate' on these forums but the administrators, and as long as no personal insults have been made, especially vindictive ones; then no rules have been broken. Instead of hiding behind what you deem 'appropriate', "

I am entitled to express my view on the content of a post that was directed at me personally. That is all I did. I did not make any comments about that poster. That is the difference between my post and yours. You, like the other poster are wrong in your assumptions.

I did not state that I decide what is appropriate.

Second, inappropriate behavior on any forum is not limited to insults. Personal attacks are not appropriate. Making statements directed at individuals is a personal attack. You can disagree with the content of my posts but you have no right to assume to tell me (or imply by your comments) what I can or can't post here.

How is OSL's post appropriate? Does he get to decide what I can post here or not? If so, you need to explain why that is. Does he have the right to tell me how I can act here or not? It seems to me you think OSL can do that but I can't respond to the content of his post.

Your comments directed at me are inappropriate and that means your behavior here is inappropriate.

I never complained about therapists I simply made an observation. "Therapists see things only from their own unique and narrow perspective." I am not responsible for how someone misinterprets that statement. And that's what that is, a misinterpretation. No one should expect a therapist to understand about neurotransmitters although that would be helpful for them to know about. (I don't see myself as a specialist so I don't see that misinterpretation relates to me.)

Edited by 4eva, 10 February 2010 - 03:27 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

I never thought I'd need to say this here, but don't get all butthurt. My post had nothing to do with you personally and everything to do with the content of your posts. Yes, you are free to express your opinion just as I am free to express my opinion about your opinion.

If you read carefully, you will find that in the op she never said here doctor specifically diagnosed her as an undermethylator, just that she had some tests done.

If you read my post, you'll also find that I didn't say methylation wasn't a problem, just that you take for granted that it's the main problem.

The idea that therapists don't care about neurotransmitters is ludicrous, you'd have to be a really crappy therapist for this to be the case. Therapists often refer patients to psychiatrists in order to get them medication. You use the "narrow perspective" arguments to belittle their use, otherwise you would have framed it differently. Then you turn around and start attacking people for disagreeing with what you are saying. This forum entails debate, this stuff is too complicated to expect one person to talk from their soapbox without any interjection. You would think you would expect this by now, I wouldn't expect anything less for my posts.

Now do you have anything to say about the points I made?

[Animal]

4eva is so ignorant of their hypocrisy any further discussion seems pointless, good luck getting an 'appropriate' response OneScrewLoose.

[OneScrewLoose]

I would like to know who deleted the last two posts in this thread.

[medievil]

Very interesting info 4eva

[JackTheBox]

4eva, I believe your posts have been appropriate - however perhaps you should put a disclaimer in bold type disclaiming that you are not a medical practitioner and following your advice is to be done at one's own risk.

____________________

Anyway, I too am an undermethylator, my symptoms being pure depression.

There is no histamine blood test in my country. I was diagnosed by having a low serum copper, normal ceruloplasmin, normal zinc (I had supplemented with a ZMA course prior) [ Undermethylators typically have low copper low zinc and overmethylators have high copper low zinc]. I also fit the clinical profile, I am very lean despite 5-6k cal (fast oxidiser), was insanely motivated until 20yrs old (topped my high school, am now 24 and final year university). I have extreme allergies to dust and cats (which I have now finished injected desensitisation to)


I started methylation treatment 2 months ago. With some success. This is my regimen:

1600mg/d SAMe (I tolerate this well, makes me feel wonderful, apparently if 100mg SAMe makes you anxious you are an over-methylator and SAMe will make you worse and to the point of panic attacks; however 1600mg does speed me up a tad (confident and not anxious) but I feel very hungry and hot)
3.0g/d Methionine
1-2g Calcium (citrate or carbonate)
600mg magnesium (citrate)
50mg P5P every 4 days (slows and calms me down) - this is a NOW product and includes riboflavin and 100mg magnesium taurinate (perhaps why the slow down) - so I have now ordered some pure P5P source naturals.
(Normal Vitamin B6 makes me itchy and gives me exercise induced hives if I take it for several weeks). Apparently B6 converts serotonin to melatonin hence possibly why i get sleepy. William Walsh recommends B6 in the AM and Zinc in the PM and this seems odd to me, except that the B6 lasts for so long - 48 hours of sleepiness :( but i need it to slow my thyroid/adrenaline related hunger...
Zinc picolinate 25mg every second day - helps sleep but don't want to make copper deficiency worse.

Folic acid, methylfolate (metafolin), B12, methylB12, niacin make me depressed.
TMG tiny amounts gave me a throbbing headache - however this was before my methylation therapy, haven't tried it since.

Not to highjack but rather to add to this thread,

The points I want to raise are:

1) Is both SAMe and Methionine at the same time a good idea while I wait for the Methionine to work (8 to 12 months)?
My homocysteine before therapy was very low (which is typical of undermethylation), however with all this SAMe and methionine producing homocysteine I should really get this checked sometime?

2) The SAMe raises my thyroid function tests (t4 only) above my baseline but only to the upper limit of normal. Nevertheless i get extremely hungry (6-8k cal) and I am losing weight slightly (despite already being lean)
I think I can slow my metabolism with P5P, however 50mg slows me down for 48 hours (I will be sleepy despite 1600mg SAMe and 3.0g Methionine), my 50mg tablets are enteric coated so I haven't tried lower doses, but will do so soon.
4eva did you find this effect with P5P.

3) What is the point of the Calcium and magnesium?
I haven't really had time to tinker and work out the roles of these two, and wondered if you had worked this out?

4) 4eva, what imbalances did you create? I ask as I already have a diagnosed copper deficiency (copper low and ceruloplasmin normal on 3 occasions) - however William Walsh of pffiefer said to avoid copper supplementation. I see Overmethylators have high copper, so I assume that treating undermethylation will raise my copper hopefully? Hence why I am on low doses of zinc, my zinc blood test was normal on 3 occasions, and zinc can exacerbate copper deficiency.

5) With this condition, if you stablise on Methionine, do you have stay on it for life?

Edited by Jcam, 18 February 2010 - 07:06 AM.

[JackTheBox]

About a week ago I tried weaning off SAMe completely hoping Methionine would cut it. It didn't. I got very depressed very quickly.

No idea how I'm going to get off the SAMe at some point. :S

[bocadillodelomo]

Very interesting info 4eva

Did 4eva change his name to Fuckoff? I dont see a 4eva .. haha

Anyway i was reading the post by fuckoff about methionine and folate.. and i found that methionine is linked to a folate trap. Does that mean, correcting the methionine def will allow folate to be untrapped? Or is it the other way around?

[Animal]

Very interesting info 4eva

Did 4eva change his name to Fuckoff? I dont see a 4eva .. haha

LOL, it looks like it. How highly inappropriate!