63 replies to this topic

[nootropi]

I believe the studies talked about dendritic and axon growth over 6-18 months. However I'm saying that it might be 1.5-2 years before the effects are more noticeable. There maybe more immediate nootropic effects of Aswaganda which are noticeable but I'm not talking about those.

I am not sure about this; however, I can't see why this interesting substance should not be added to my stack.

[nootropi]

Dosage

A typical traditional dosage of ashwagandha is 1- 2 grams of the root (boiled in milk or water for 15-20 minutes) taken three times daily.

click here

[digdug]

My parents have taken this for decades. I'm Indian (and so are my parents!). I've asked them, and they report nothing in the way of nootropic enhancement. Its taken more as an ayurvedic medicine as a cure-all.


Also, check your local Indian grocery. We Indians are sufficiently spread around the US now, that there should be one in your area. You can get Ashwagandha for like $3 a bag for the powder.

[nootropi]

My parents have taken this for decades. I'm Indian (and so are my parents!). I've asked them, and they report nothing in the way of nootropic enhancement. Its taken more as an ayurvedic medicine as a cure-all.


Also, check your local Indian grocery. We Indians are sufficiently spread around the US now, that there should be one in your area. You can get Ashwagandha for like $3 a bag for the powder.

Well I definately DO NOT consider my parents the "know all" about nootropics, if I were you I would assume the same, especially given the volume of evidence available....

[axiombiological]

Bernie:

Apparently you have not examined the several sources of the article that I linked.

Do you have special suite of brain benchmarking tools to which you subject your brain to? Please elaborate on this issue.

Tohda C, Kuboyama T, Komatsu K.

Research Center for Ethnomedicines, Institute of Natural Medicine, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Japan.
Extension of dendrites and axons in neurons may compensate for and repair damaged neuronal circuits in the dementia brain. Our aim in the present study was to explore drugs activating neurite outgrowth and regenerating the neuronal network. We found that the methanol extract of Ashwagandha (roots of Withania somnifera; 5 microg/ml) significantly increased the percentage of cells with neurites in human neuroblastoma SK-N-SH cells. The effect of the extract was dose- and time-dependent mRNA levels of the dendritic markers MAP2 and PSD-95 by RT-PCR were found to be markedly increased by treatment with the extract, whereas those of the axonal marker Tau were not. Immunocytochemistry demonstrated the specific expression of MAP2 in neurites extended by the extract. These results suggest that the methanol extract of Ashwagandha promotes the formation of dendrites.

Neurochem Int. 1997 Feb;30(2):181-90.  Related Articles, Links
Systemic administration of defined extracts from Withania somnifera (Indian Ginseng) and Shilajit differentially affects cholinergic but not glutamatergic and GABAergic Schliebs R, Liebmann A, Bhattacharya SK, Kumar A, Ghosal S, Bigl V.

Paul Flechsig Institute for Brain Research, Department of Neurochemistry, University of Leipzig, Germany.

Although some promising results have been achieved by acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, an effective therapeutic intervention in Alzheimer's disease still remains an important goal. Sitoindosides VII-X, and withaferin-A, isolated from aqueous methanol extract from the roots of cultivated varieties of Withania somnifera (known as Indian Ginseng), as well as Shilajit, a pale-brown to blackish brown exudation from steep rocks of the Himalaya mountain, are used in Indian medicine to attenuate cerebral functional deficits, including amnesia, in geriatric patients. The present investigation was conducted to assess whether the memory-enhancing effects of plant extracts from Withania somnifera and Shilajit are owing to neurochemical alterations of specific transmitter systems. Therefore, histochemistry to analyse acetylcholinesterase activity as well as receptor autoradiography to detect cholinergic, glutamatergic and GABAergic receptor subtypes were performed in brain slices from adult male Wistar rats, injected intraperitoneally daily with an equimolar mixture of sitoindosides VII-X and withaferin-A (prepared from Withania somnifera) or with Shilajit, at doses of 40 mg/kg of body weight for 7 days. Administration of Shilajit led to reduced acetylcholinesterase staining, restricted to the basal forebrain nuclei including medial septum and the vertical limb of the diagonal band. Systemic application of the defined extract from Withania somnifera, however, led to differential effects on AChE activity in basal forebrain nuclei: slightly enhanced AChE activity was found in the lateral septum and globus pallidus, whereas in the vertical diagonal band AChE activity was reduced following treatment with sitoindosides VII-X and withaferin-A. These changes were accompanied by enhanced M1-muscarinic cholinergic receptor binding in lateral and medial septum as well as in frontal cortices, whereas the M2-muscarinic receptor binding sites were increased in a number of cortical regions including cingulate, frontal, piriform, parietal and retrosplenial cortex. Treatment with Shilajit or the defined extract from Withania somnifera affected neither GABAA and benzodiazepine receptor binding nor NMDA and AMPA glutamate receptor subtypes in any of the cortical or subcortical regions studied. The data suggest that Shilajit and the defined extract from Withania somnifera affect preferentially events in the cortical and basal forebrain cholinergic signal transduction cascade. The drug-induced increase in cortical muscarinic acetylcholine receptor capacity might partly explain the cognition-enhancing and memory-improving effects of extracts from Withania somnifera observed in animals and humans.

I think that if we get the same results from animal/rat studies as we do in vitro, we can safely assume that the same results will be duplicated in vivo. In other words, if we notice an effect of a drug to human neurons in vivo, and we then test a drug on an animal (in this case a rat), and we get the same results, that is conclusive evidence that the results will be consistent when the drug is applied to a human brain.

But these studies do not demonstrate neuronal growth "in vivo", only "in vitro". The second study is only looking at neurotransmitter activity, not neuronal growth.

I am not stating that these herbs are not useful, only that "in vitro" studies are not perfect representations of real world effects.

[nootropi]

But these studies do not demonstrate neuronal growth "in vivo", only "in vitro". The second study is only looking at neurotransmitter activity, not neuronal growth.

I am not stating that these herbs are not useful, only that "in vitro" studies are not perfect representations of real world effects.

As always, Bernie.

[digdug]

My mother is a microbiologist and my father chemical engineer. They are capable of answering such a question just fine, and have had plentyof hours of studying to attest to it. I mean, we all go and purchse things based on anecdotal evidence here...

[nootropi]

My mother is a microbiologist and my father chemical engineer. They are capable of answering such a question just fine, and have had plentyof hours of studying to attest to it. I mean, we all go and purchse things based on anecdotal evidence here...

Great, well my mother and father are both MDs and I still don't take much of their advise, so what? Your parents are always right and know everything, you say?

[ejdavis1]

I received my order from shamanshop today. It was hilarious. When Adam said that "C & S" turned out to be a bunch of twigs, I was imagining something on the order of 1/16 to 1/8 inch. No such luck. I am the proud owner of 1 pound of pencil sized roots!

I tried soaking some of them in boiling water but I'm not sure if this is doing any good. Right now I'm eyeing the shredder in my office ...

[nootropi]

I received my order from shamanshop today.  It was hilarious.  When Adam said that "C & S" turned out to be a bunch of twigs, I was imagining something on the order of 1/16 to 1/8 inch.  No such luck.  I am the proud owner of 1 pound of pencil sized roots! 

I tried soaking some of them in boiling water but I'm not sure if this is doing any good.  Right now I'm eyeing the shredder in my office ...

What I do is place about 9 grams (to make sure I get enough) of the twigs into a pot of 2 cups of water. I cover the pot with a top and boil it for about 20 minutes, pour the liquid through a strainer into a mug, then add a little sugar and ice, and it tastes very good (an excellent tea). I do this three times daily.

[zencatholic]

Adam,

I know you're probably making that tea on principle, and because you hate to waste the money, but I think I'd chalk that transaction up to experience, and go ahead and order the ashwagandha powder from herbalcom.

Based on these threads, I will start taking 4 grams of bacopa and 4 grams of ashwagandha daily for nootropic benefit. That seems to be about the right dosage. I will also start taking 4 grams of turmeric daily for life extension benefit. Herbalcom's prices are just too cheap to not start doing this.

I will, however, check out a few Indian grocery stores in my neighborhood as well. The part of Houston in which I live (Sugar Land) has a very large South Asian population, so it shouldn't be too difficult. For that matter, my neighbors are Indian. Maybe I should just ask them where to go for these herbs. I'll report back on what I find.

Peace be with you all,
AMDG

Zen Catholic

[nootropi]

Adam,

I know you're probably making that tea on principle, and because you hate to waste the money, but I think I'd chalk that transaction up to experience, and go ahead and order the ashwagandha powder from herbalcom.

Based on these threads, I will start taking 4 grams of bacopa and 4 grams of ashwagandha daily for nootropic benefit.  That seems to be about the right dosage.  I will also start taking 4 grams of turmeric daily for life extension benefit.  Herbalcom's prices are just too cheap to not start doing this.

I will, however, check out a few Indian grocery stores in my neighborhood as well.  The part of Houston in which I live (Sugar Land) has a very large South Asian population, so it shouldn't be too difficult.  For that matter, my neighbors are Indian.  Maybe I should just ask them where to go for these herbs.  I'll report back on what I find.

Peace be with you all,
AMDG

Zen Catholic

Thanks for the tip, my friend. Actually I have a pound of the powder waiting for me at my other house. I plan on going there next week to pick it up; so until then I am just going to continue making the tea; which is actually quite tasty.



:-)

Edited by adamp2p, 10 July 2004 - 02:22 AM.

[D Sade]

Or get yourself a wood chipper


(works great for getting rid of annoying parners-in-crime as well)

[nootropi]

Or get yourself a wood chipper


(works great for getting rid of annoying parners-in-crime as well)

LOL, D Sade; lol.

[geigertube]

Nootropi:

Are you still using ashwagandha? Anything to report on it? Im thinking about adding it to my stack.


Steven

[scottl]

Ashwaganda is good stuff. It is known as indian ginseng and for a reason (although gentler). Nootropi's recent posts are a good reminder to be careful where you buy it.

[geigertube]

I grew some a while back, and the tea I made from the root was enjoyable. I'll have to give it a whirl again.

[free]

Did you grow the ashwangandha from seed, or were you able to obtain the live plants? Are they easy to grow?

[strongman]

Just wondering, don't you think its a bit presumputious to expect the same results from the bulk herb as the methanol extract ??

I would assume an extract is more bioavailable, and also will have undergone less oxidation than the dried powdered herb.

[geigertube]

Did you grow the ashwangandha from seed, or were you able to obtain the live plants? Are they easy to grow?

I was able to get a live plant from a local herb shop.. Unfortunately, they are closed now. But, yeah, it grew really easily, and you are supposed to harvest the root after one year, so it's a quick reward crop..


Steven

[macdog]

This sounds like something I'd like to try, but I was hoping someone might have a few thoughts as I do not have a typical brain.

I have a condition called Tourrette's Syndrome, which is the result of what is called "unorthodox neural connectivity". In other words, my dendrites are already hooking up in ways that don't make a lot of sense. Particularly between the emotional and motor centers (which is what causes the tics that are a hallmark of the condition). I already have to spend a lot of time meditating in an effort to quite literally "think around" some of the stranger connections.

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks growing new dendrites could exacerbate these issues.

[free]

Has anyone ordered ashwagandha from herbalcom recently? Zen Catholic's post is from 6 months ago, and I was just wondering if that supplier is still recommended...or is there a better source? [?]

[macdog]

cosmos, Tourrette's is thought to be genetic, but in truth it is poorly understood. In fact, the only way to positively diagnose the condition is a post-mortem brain dissection (which I'm in no rush to do). Of course, a lot of people are diagnosed with the condition without having their brains sliced up.

According to Dr. Oliver Saks Tourrette's occurs to some degree in 1 out of 1000 people without regard to race or sex. It is not associated with any trauma, or childhood abuse, as some conditions are, and ranges from the barely noticeable to the severely debilitating. It is also frequently associated with high IQ. My own case is mid-range.

The idea that I could use ashwagandha in conjuction with my meditation regime to reinforce the "right" pathways is an interesting one.

[macdog]

emotional impulsiveness can definitely be a symptom in general for Tourretter's, not so bad with me.

I've spoken to lots of so-called "experts", and their lack of understanding is one reason why I don't in particular respect the dubious phenomenon of "expertise". Most of them came up with the solution that if I was doped up enough on addictive narcotics I wouldn't have any problems. Yeah right. For awhile there my meds had it so it took all my intellectual energy just to watch cartoons.

I did have a great Doc awhile back and we worked pretty hard at getting me a good stack. Right now I take 300mg a day of effexor and 30mg a day of remeron right before bed. That regime has eliminated problems with anxiety and general melancholy while still allowing me "feel" and not making me sleep 18 hours a day.

I know this forum isn't about my Tourrette's, but cosmos has asked, and I suppose the issues of dendrite connectivity are relevant. Tourrette's is essentially a condition of extreme and unorthodox connectivity. In the Greg Bear novel Slant, one of the character induces tourrette's in themselves in order to raise their already high IQ and come up with new solutions to a difficult problem.

I've had some problems with trying other nootropics. Vincopetin for instance makes me profoundly depressed. And as a side note, I had to take prednisone for awhile after I ruptured a disc in my back, and that completely eliminated the tics. My theory being that the catabolic action broke down excess acetycholine. As you might guess, having extra acetylcholine means I have a pretty huge memory. Not eidedtic at all, since I remember everything about an experience, not just words or concepts but the smells, sounds and other associated tactilia (if that a word).

I'll stop now, but thanks cosmos

[macdog]

Anyone with any further interest in Tourrette's might consider reading Dr. Oliver Saks book An Anthropologist on Mars. I've read almost everything that's been written on the subject (which is surprisingly little) and there is simply no better description. A search of some of my old posts will also reveal some further aspects of my experience.

[Pablo M]

Keep in mind that like Huperzine A for instance, Huperzine A is simply an extract of a certain chinese herb. Huperzine A is a totally different substance compared to Ashwagandha but I'm using that for an example. Ashwagandha (I believe, not certain) has two active ingredients in quite low doses, but these two ingredients are what make up the positive nootropic effects we see in those studies. One of those active ingredients is the Withanolides, I believe this is what is causing the dendritic and axon growth but I cannot be sure. It seems that the Withanolides are at microgram doses. So while I may buy that 1 pound bag of Ashwagandha I prefer to get the most bang for my buck by buying an extract in pill form of a standardized amount of Withanolides, I do not believe taking too much would pose a health risk although I cannot be certain. Pills are preferable because a certain dose can be maintained indefinitely so that you are certain you are dosing correctly with each serving rather than ball parking it with a bag of Ashwagandha.

Just wondering, don't you think its a bit presumputious to expect the same results from the bulk herb as the methanol extract ??

I would assume an extract is more bioavailable, and also will have undergone less oxidation than the dried powdered herb.

Both good points. Bulk herbs and extracts are definitely not the same thing. A standardized extract can make it a lot easier to get the dose you want
I take a 28:1 extract of milk thistle (with 80% silymarin), which means that 28 pounds of raw milk thistle produces 1 pound of final product. I take two 500 mg capsules and would be hard pressed to take 28 grams of milk thistle. Taking the extract, I also know exactly what dose I am getting each time. I could drink gallons of green tea to get a high level of polyphenols, but taking an extract would be a lot easier, not to mention safer. Levels of substances in plants can vary drastically. Extracts are the way to go if you want reproducable effects.

(BTW, I take a 4:1 ashwaganda extract)