30 replies to this topic

[GoodFellas]

What are the side effects of Saw Palmetto? I'm considering using it.

Thanks

[pycnogenol]

Ray Sahelian has info about it here:

http://www.raysahelian.com/saw.html

[GoodFellas]

But couldn't saw palmetto give you increased blood pressure and cancer in some cases?;P

[Sillewater]

Is there evidence that Saw Palmetto actually decreases the size of the prostate, or is the data based on BPH:
http://pipeline.cora...cer_useless.php

I know some older adults taking it for urinary problems related to prostate however the results have never been consistent.

[meat250]

SP reduces DHT, and in the body when you mess around with DHT too much, youll get an increase in Estrogen...you make the call


Meat

[GoodFellas]

But couldn't saw palmetto give you increased blood pressure and cancer in some cases?;P

Anyone who knows?

[Logan]

What are the side effects of Saw Palmetto? I'm considering using it.

Thanks

What do you want to use it for? If for hairloss, Soy Isoflavones combined with Cayenne Pepper may be a better option.


http://www.google.co...e7AYmO-3-b4kNQQ

http://www.google.co...0SEe7IzBMmHqWeA

http://www.google.co...wnyb0hFrQ5-mzUg

[rwac]

Soy Isoflavones.

Those are basically phytoestrogens too.

[Logan]

Soy Isoflavones.

Those are basically phytoestrogens too.

If you read one of the articles I posted carefully I think you will find that it is stated that soy isoflavones may increase overall testosterone and have anti-estrogenic action.

[rwac]

If you read one of the articles I posted carefully I think you will find that it is stated that soy isoflavones may increase overall testosterone and have anti-estrogenic action.

Metabolism and Bioavailability

The biological effects of soy isoflavones are strongly influenced by their metabolism, which is dependent on the activity of bacteria that colonize the human intestine (2). For example, the soy isoflavone daidzein may be metabolized in the intestine to equol, a metabolite that has greater estrogenic activity than daidzein, and to other metabolites that are less estrogenic. Studies that measure urinary equol excretion after soy consumption indicate that only about 33% of individuals from Western populations metabolize daidzein to equol (3). Thus, individual differences in the metabolism of isoflavones could have important implications for the biological activities of these phytoestrogens.

Biological Activities

Estrogenic and Anti-Estrogenic Activities

Soy isoflavones are known to have weak estrogenic or hormone-like activity. Estrogens are signaling molecules that exert their effects by binding to estrogen receptors within cells (chemical structures of endogenous estrogens). The estrogen-receptor complex interacts with DNA to change the expression of estrogen-responsive genes. Estrogen receptors are present in numerous tissues other than those associated with reproduction, including bone, liver, heart, and brain (4). Soy isoflavones and other phytoestrogens can bind to estrogen receptors, mimicking the effects of estrogen in some tissues and antagonizing (blocking) the effects of estrogen in others (5). Scientists are interested in the tissue-selective activities of phytoestrogens because anti-estrogenic effects in reproductive tissue could help reduce the risk of hormone-associated cancers (breast, uterine, and prostate), while estrogenic effects in other tissues could help maintain bone density and improve blood lipid profiles (cholesterol levels). The extent to which soy isoflavones exert estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects in humans is currently the focus of considerable scientific research.

Estrogen Receptor-Independent Activities

Soy isoflavones and their metabolites also have biological activities that are unrelated to their interactions with estrogen receptors (6). By inhibiting the synthesis and activity of certain enzymes involved in estrogen metabolism, soy isoflavones may alter the biological activity of endogenous estrogens and androgens (7-9). Soy isoflavones have also been found to inhibit tyrosine kinases (10), enzymes that play critical roles in the signaling pathways that stimulate cell proliferation. Additionally, isoflavones can act as antioxidants in vitro (11), but the extent to which they contribute to the antioxidant status of humans is not yet clear. Plasma F₂-isoprostanes, biomarkers of lipid peroxidation in vivo, were significantly lower after two weeks of daily consumption of soy protein containing 56 mg of isoflavones than after consumption of soy protein providing only 2 mg of isoflavones (12). However, daily supplementation with 50-100 mg of isolated soy isoflavones did not significantly alter plasma or urinary F₂-isoprostane levels (13, 14).

Doesn't necessarily sound very friendly to me.
From http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/soyiso/

Edited by rwac, 25 March 2010 - 05:35 AM.

[Logan]

If you read one of the articles I posted carefully I think you will find that it is stated that soy isoflavones may increase overall testosterone and have anti-estrogenic action.

Metabolism and Bioavailability

The biological effects of soy isoflavones are strongly influenced by their metabolism, which is dependent on the activity of bacteria that colonize the human intestine (2). For example, the soy isoflavone daidzein may be metabolized in the intestine to equol, a metabolite that has greater estrogenic activity than daidzein, and to other metabolites that are less estrogenic. Studies that measure urinary equol excretion after soy consumption indicate that only about 33% of individuals from Western populations metabolize daidzein to equol (3). Thus, individual differences in the metabolism of isoflavones could have important implications for the biological activities of these phytoestrogens.

Biological Activities

Estrogenic and Anti-Estrogenic Activities

Soy isoflavones are known to have weak estrogenic or hormone-like activity. Estrogens are signaling molecules that exert their effects by binding to estrogen receptors within cells (chemical structures of endogenous estrogens). The estrogen-receptor complex interacts with DNA to change the expression of estrogen-responsive genes. Estrogen receptors are present in numerous tissues other than those associated with reproduction, including bone, liver, heart, and brain (4). Soy isoflavones and other phytoestrogens can bind to estrogen receptors, mimicking the effects of estrogen in some tissues and antagonizing (blocking) the effects of estrogen in others (5). Scientists are interested in the tissue-selective activities of phytoestrogens because anti-estrogenic effects in reproductive tissue could help reduce the risk of hormone-associated cancers (breast, uterine, and prostate), while estrogenic effects in other tissues could help maintain bone density and improve blood lipid profiles (cholesterol levels). The extent to which soy isoflavones exert estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects in humans is currently the focus of considerable scientific research.

Estrogen Receptor-Independent Activities

Soy isoflavones and their metabolites also have biological activities that are unrelated to their interactions with estrogen receptors (6). By inhibiting the synthesis and activity of certain enzymes involved in estrogen metabolism, soy isoflavones may alter the biological activity of endogenous estrogens and androgens (7-9). Soy isoflavones have also been found to inhibit tyrosine kinases (10), enzymes that play critical roles in the signaling pathways that stimulate cell proliferation. Additionally, isoflavones can act as antioxidants in vitro (11), but the extent to which they contribute to the antioxidant status of humans is not yet clear. Plasma F₂-isoprostanes, biomarkers of lipid peroxidation in vivo, were significantly lower after two weeks of daily consumption of soy protein containing 56 mg of isoflavones than after consumption of soy protein providing only 2 mg of isoflavones (12). However, daily supplementation with 50-100 mg of isolated soy isoflavones did not significantly alter plasma or urinary F₂-isoprostane levels (13, 14).

Doesn't necessarily sound very friendly to me.
From http://lpi.oregonsta...emicals/soyiso/

I guess taking soy isoflavones might be a bit risky, until we understand better their impact on hormones.

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Goodfellas. I have been studying saw palmetto and beta sitosterol myself to decide whether or not to take supplements. I went through a lot of research studies and found that they both have credible support. As far as I have read, there are no known side effects of saw palmetto. I came across an article recently which explained the difference between saw palmetto and beta sitosterol very well. Beta sitosterol does the same thing as saw palmetto but is 100 times more potent. According to the article, beta sitosterol has been very well researched and there are no known side effects. Here’s the article link: http://www.articlesn...-Health-/951944

[1kgcoffee]

I'm not sure if this is true, but I've heard that phytosterols like beta sitosterol dont actually bind to 5-ar, but to the androgen receptor site.

[madanthony]

Hi Goodfellas. I have been studying saw palmetto and beta sitosterol myself to decide whether or not to take supplements. I went through a lot of research studies and found that they both have credible support. As far as I have read, there are no known side effects of saw palmetto. I came across an article recently which explained the difference between saw palmetto and beta sitosterol very well. Beta sitosterol does the same thing as saw palmetto but is 100 times more potent. According to the article, beta sitosterol has been very well researched and there are no known side effects. Here’s the article link: http://www.articlesn...-Health-/951944

Don't want to freak anyone out, me being female on this topic, but why worry about anything turning into estrogen? Can't you just take aromatase inhibitors? There is one that is supposed to be powerful -- chrysin, and many more that are less powerful (including zinc). And saw palmetto/beta-sitosterol for 5-AR inhibiting. There are many studies on saw palmetto, all good. If it's good enough for Dr. James Duke, ethnobotanist, it's good enough for me (sortof except I'm female). I recommed DHEA + pregnenolone + saw palmetto + chrysin to older men all the time.
(Beta sisosterol only just on the radar - thanks!)

Um, these discussions always make me think -- I looked up chrysin to see if I got the spelling right and find studies are now saying that it is not effective. Instead I find the following:

reservatrol http://www.greenmedi...st-cancer-cells
oleuropein http://estudogeral.s...ndle/10316/8371

But then this study says only some of the aromtase activity is inhibited by phenols:
http://humrep.oxford...stract/18/3/487 - looks like apigenin may be worth looking into

Maybe you who have really tried this should update me about what really works. Thanks

[Hedrock]

Worst supplement I ever took!

Saw palmetto is bad.

Complete hear loss! My ears were like dead! It was after taking saw palmetto a few days.

I researched and found magnesium and piracetam as a good help. Could restore hearing taking high doses piracetam an magnesium over a month.

My hearing is today nearly normal.

[VespeneGas]

Don't want to freak anyone out, me being female on this topic, but why worry about anything turning into estrogen? Can't you just take aromatase inhibitors? There is one that is supposed to be powerful -- chrysin, and many more that are less powerful (including zinc). And saw palmetto/beta-sitosterol for 5-AR inhibiting. There are many studies on saw palmetto, all good. If it's good enough for Dr. James Duke, ethnobotanist, it's good enough for me (sortof except I'm female). I recommed DHEA + pregnenolone + saw palmetto + chrysin to older men all the time.
(Beta sisosterol only just on the radar - thanks!)

Um, these discussions always make me think -- I looked up chrysin to see if I got the spelling right and find studies are now saying that it is not effective. Instead I find the following:

reservatrol http://www.greenmedi...st-cancer-cells
oleuropein http://estudogeral.s...ndle/10316/8371

But then this study says only some of the aromtase activity is inhibited by phenols:
http://humrep.oxford...stract/18/3/487 - looks like apigenin may be worth looking into

Maybe you who have really tried this should update me about what really works. Thanks

Chrysin has negligible oral bioavailability and continues to be sold due to ignorance or unscrupulousness on the part of supplement companies. For example:

J Med Food. 2003 Winter;6(4):387-90.
Effects of chrysin on urinary testosterone levels in human males.
Gambelunghe C, Rossi R, Sommavilla M, Ferranti C, Rossi R, Ciculi C, Gizzi S, Micheletti A, Rufini S.

Department of Clinical and Experimental Medicine, Division of Sports Medicine-Laboratorio delle Attività Motorie e Sportive, University of Perugia, Perugia, Italy. labsport@unipg.it
The equilibrium of sexual hormones in both sexes is controlled in vertebrates by the enzyme aromatase, a member of the cytochrome P450 superfamily, which catalyzes the conversion of androstenedione and testosterone into estrone and estradiol, respectively. Flavonoids are diphenolic compounds present in whole grains, legumes, fruits, and vegetables that are strongly implicated as protective in coronary heart disease, stroke, and cancer. One flavonoid, chrysin, found in high concentrations in honey and propolis, has been shown to be an inhibitor of aromatase enzyme activity. These foods are often used as supplements, particulary by sportsmen for their energetic and antioxidant properties. The aim of this study was to verify if daily treatment for 21 days with propolis and honey, containing chrysin, would modify urinary concentrations of testosterone in volunteer male subjects. In fact, aromatase inhibition by chrysin could block the conversion of androgens into estrogens with a consequent increase of testosterone, eventually measurable in urine samples. The obtained data did not show alterations of the levels of testosterone in the volunteers after 7, 14, and 21 days of treatment in comparison with baseline values and compared with measurements on the control subjects at the same time. In conclusion, the use of these foods for 21 days at the doses usually taken as oral supplementation does not have effects on the equilibrium of testosterone in human males.

PMID: 14977449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Pregnenolone can cause cardiac arrhythmias at doses exceeding 5 mg per day, far far far less than most supplement companies advertise, probably due to its antagonism of GABA(a) receptors. Hormones should only be supplemented under the supervision and bloodwork monitoring of a non-retarded physician.

Estrogen (B-estradiol) gets a bad rap, but plays a crucial role in the maintenance of male immune, sexual, neurological, cardiovascular and musculoskeletal health.

[Imagination]

I was going to take it for the anti hair loss benifits, but noticed I feel extremely pissed off whenever I take it. Not sure the reason for this.

[Logan]

Worst supplement I ever took!

Saw palmetto is bad.

Complete hear loss! My ears were like dead! It was after taking saw palmetto a few days.

I researched and found magnesium and piracetam as a good help. Could restore hearing taking high doses piracetam an magnesium over a month.

My hearing is today nearly normal

Weird. Never heard of that side effect. I've taken saw palmetto without any problems.

[Hedrock]

Weird. Never heard of that side effect. I've taken saw palmetto without any problems.

Beta-Sitosterol has some bad side effects. (Occuring only in some persons).

This has been well documented in science since 20 years.

One side effect could be inducing atherosclerosis and heart attack. Beta-Sitosterol works similar to cholesterol. It could close some blood vessels under some special condition. Be careful if your circulation is not optimal!

If you have any circulation problems, high fat acids in blood, high cholesterin or lots of stress - don't take it. Als don't take it if you have a genetic disposition for Sitosterolemia.

Beta-sitosterol, one chemical present in saw palmetto extract, is chemically similar to cholesterol. High levels of sitosterol concentrations in blood have been correlated with increased severity of heart disease in men who have previously suffered from heart attacks.[18]

Wikipedia shows some scientific evidence.

PMID 16399487

A few recent publications indicate that even moderately elevated plasma plant sterol levels might be associated with an increased risk of atherosclerosis.

PMID 15599566

[madanthony]

Don't want to freak anyone out, me being female on this topic, but why worry about anything turning into estrogen? Can't you just take aromatase inhibitors? There is one that is supposed to be powerful -- chrysin, and many more that are less powerful (including zinc). And saw palmetto/beta-sitosterol for 5-AR inhibiting. There are many studies on saw palmetto, all good. If it's good enough for Dr. James Duke, ethnobotanist, it's good enough for me (sortof except I'm female). I recommed DHEA + pregnenolone + saw palmetto + chrysin to older men all the time.
(Beta sisosterol only just on the radar - thanks!)

Um, these discussions always make me think -- I looked up chrysin to see if I got the spelling right and find studies are now saying that it is not effective. Instead I find the following:

reservatrol http://www.greenmedi...st-cancer-cells
oleuropein http://estudogeral.s...ndle/10316/8371

But then this study says only some of the aromtase activity is inhibited by phenols:
http://humrep.oxford...stract/18/3/487 - looks like apigenin may be worth looking into

Maybe you who have really tried this should update me about what really works. Thanks

Chrysin has negligible oral bioavailability and continues to be sold due to ignorance or unscrupulousness on the part of supplement companies. For example:

J Med Food. 2003 Winter;6(4):387-90.
Effects of chrysin on urinary testosterone levels in human males.
Gambelunghe C, Rossi R, Sommavilla M, Ferranti C, Rossi R, Ciculi C, Gizzi S, Micheletti A, Rufini S.

Department of Clinical and Experimental Medicine, Division of Sports Medicine-Laboratorio delle Attività Motorie e Sportive, University of Perugia, Perugia, Italy. labsport@unipg.it
The equilibrium of sexual hormones in both sexes is controlled in vertebrates by the enzyme aromatase, a member of the cytochrome P450 superfamily, which catalyzes the conversion of androstenedione and testosterone into estrone and estradiol, respectively. Flavonoids are diphenolic compounds present in whole grains, legumes, fruits, and vegetables that are strongly implicated as protective in coronary heart disease, stroke, and cancer. One flavonoid, chrysin, found in high concentrations in honey and propolis, has been shown to be an inhibitor of aromatase enzyme activity. These foods are often used as supplements, particulary by sportsmen for their energetic and antioxidant properties. The aim of this study was to verify if daily treatment for 21 days with propolis and honey, containing chrysin, would modify urinary concentrations of testosterone in volunteer male subjects. In fact, aromatase inhibition by chrysin could block the conversion of androgens into estrogens with a consequent increase of testosterone, eventually measurable in urine samples. The obtained data did not show alterations of the levels of testosterone in the volunteers after 7, 14, and 21 days of treatment in comparison with baseline values and compared with measurements on the control subjects at the same time. In conclusion, the use of these foods for 21 days at the doses usually taken as oral supplementation does not have effects on the equilibrium of testosterone in human males.

PMID: 14977449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Pregnenolone can cause cardiac arrhythmias at doses exceeding 5 mg per day, far far far less than most supplement companies advertise, probably due to its antagonism of GABA(a) receptors. Hormones should only be supplemented under the supervision and bloodwork monitoring of a non-retarded physician.

Estrogen (B-estradiol) gets a bad rap, but plays a crucial role in the maintenance of male immune, sexual, neurological, cardiovascular and musculoskeletal health.

I wanted to get in to apologise for my post. Once I realised chrysin has been proveb ineffective in vivo (supposedly it was proven to work in vitro) I should have quit, but I decided to do a quick check for herbal aromatase inhibitors and really did not have time to do anything worthwhile with that.

I have the huge book form www.lef.org which summarizes their take on the studies out regarding the problems of longevity and they say that the problem with hair loss is not the DHT per se but the actions of the immune system on the DHT at the hair follicle and that anti-oxidants are a very important part of a hair loss prevention strategy. I take a very high dose of anti-oxidants myself.

I do not know why anyone would say that over 5 mg pregnenolone is too high. I know at least one male in his 60's taking 100mg pregnenolone and 25 mg DHEA and he feels great. But most of you here seem to be under 30 years old and I don't think young people should take ANY.

[madanthony]

Pregnenolone can cause cardiac arrhythmias at doses exceeding 5 mg per day,

I take 30mg /day pregnenolone and I do not get arrythmias. However I take 1g/day olive leaf extract and that cancels out arrythmias. In fact, for undeserved low blood sugar attacks (due to stress, like being cut off in traffic), I started taking Rhodiola, which was effective due to it's ability to increase gylcogen stores. However it caused me to have 1 arrythmia/day just as I laid down at night. Then I started taking the 1g/day olive leaf extract and had no more arrythmias. So then when I started the pregnenolone I would never notice such a sideeffect I suppose.

[madanthony]

Here's the link from www.lef.org: they think Dr. Proctor has the best product out there for hair loss with SOD anti-oxidants highly featured: http://search.lef.or.....ord=baldness

BTW, I am just being helpful. Despite taking DHEA I have lots of hair. I've had my hormones checked and I don't make a lot of DHT.

[Robert Taylor]

I have been researching beta sitosterol myself and came across some research that I found interesting. Seem pretty convincing. What do you think?

• http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2556486/
• http://content.karge...roduktNr=224083
• http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9313662
• http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10796740
• http://mrw.interscie...3/abstract.html

Edited by Robert Taylor, 06 April 2010 - 10:52 AM.

[tommix]

THERE IS NO ANY ANY ABSOLUTELY STUFF to prevent, slow hair loss. HAir loss is GOOD. I'm not from usa and i am AMAZED how much Americans intend to sacrifice just to slow balding! I'm getting bald since age of 17. now i'm 26. in photos my top looks completely bald because of short trimming, but WHO CARES? I have gorgeous girl, even i'm not the best looking guy. She's studying genetics, even i never even tried to get into college.. So believe me me your hair have NOTHING TO DO with sex, girls and so on. - it;s on in your head what matters, of cours in my country (eastern europe) girls are not so cheap as in usa, but anyway the point is the same. But you americans make yourself impotent just to save few hundreds hairs!!!! IT's STUPID!!!! Grow muscle or something-it's sexy with balding. Be smart and so on..

Saw palmetto is NOT working for prostate my dad uses it..

And balding is GENETIC autoimmune "disease" so there is no cure this is how your body programmed to work. I think this is evolution. Humans do not need hair. especially on head. And i can even bet - in 200 years there will be 70% males with MPB in 500 all will be bald. Hairs will be replaces with sweat glands and it will more efficient cool our brains.

Edited by tommix, 03 May 2011 - 06:35 PM.

[juanpierre]

I've experienced a very itchy scalp and hair loss while using saw palmetto. Used it three times independent of other supplements with consistent results.

Also got a noticable jump in libido

Everybody is different i guess!

[tommix]

I've experienced a very itchy scalp and hair loss while using saw palmetto. Used it three times independent of other supplements with consistent results.

Also got a noticable jump in libido

Everybody is different i guess!

No, everybody is the same. We all share the same biochemistry patterns, exept of course if there is some genetic mutations or diseases.
And most of people do not realize the effect of PLACEBO - it's VERY powerful! It's even proven to grow muscles only by looking at how others doing workouts, and so on. Religious people too-they so believe in that stupid god and that he will heal them-so few of them in real - get better! even cancer!
SO to get better in libido by placebo - it's super easy. Cause most of libido problems is in the psychology.

And how blocking DHT (which is very important for sex life) can benefit to libido? ALL hair loss treatments "works" (but they don't work) by blocking DHT -and what is the primary side effect? - YES - loss of libido!

Edited by tommix, 04 May 2011 - 01:04 PM.

[tommix]

And the funniest part is that- when researchers does experiment on mouse and finds out that some stuff makes like 4x more testosterone in the blood - all people jumps for that - wow it's amazing..buys shit.. Somehow - when it comes to mouse-we think - it must work on us-but when it comes to humans-well we are not the same... - bullshit

Edited by tommix, 04 May 2011 - 02:14 PM.

[rwac]

Also got a noticable jump in libido

SO to get better in libido by placebo - it's super easy. Cause most of libido problems is in the psychology.

And how blocking DHT (which is very important for sex life) can benefit to libido? ALL hair loss treatments "works" (but they don't work) by blocking DHT -and what is the primary side effect? - YES - loss of libido!

Estrogen is also necessary for libido. An increase in estrogen will temporarily drive libido up. (Drive it too low and libido suffers).
It can have the opposite effect long term.

[juanpierre]

I've experienced a very itchy scalp and hair loss while using saw palmetto. Used it three times independent of other supplements with consistent results.

Also got a noticable jump in libido

Everybody is different i guess!

I just realised while i was looking at something else.. i wasn't talking about saw palmetto here, i was talking about stinging nettle.

Please disregard, my experience with saw palmetto was not positive.

[chris w]

And balding is GENETIC autoimmune "disease" so there is no cure this is how your body programmed to work. I think this is evolution.

You're confusing regular male pattern balding with allopecia. The latter is an autoimmune disease that affects women as well as men and hasn't much to do with DHT. And appeals to the natural, evolutionary state of affairs won't convince many on this site anyway