55 replies to this topic

[ramon25]

Anyone got updates?

[bobdrake12]

I have been using CoQ10 regularly for about 10 years. Last year, my doctor recommended that I double my dosage.

I just recently have been learning about the importance of mitochondria.

Check out the article below. I just copied a small portion of it.

http://altmedicine.a...CoenzymeQ10.htm

What is CoQ10?

Other Names: Coenzyme Q10, Co Q10, Ubiquinone, Vitamin Q

CoQ10 is a naturally-occuring compound found in every cell in the body. CoQ10's alternate name, ubiquinone, comes from the word ubiquitous, which means "found everywhere."

CoQ10 plays a key role in producing energy in the mitochondria, the part of a cell responsible for the production of energy in the form of ATP.

Why People Use CoQ10

•Heart failure

•Cardiomyopathy

•Heart Attack Prevention and Recovery

•High Blood Pressure

•Diabetes

•Gum Disease

•Kidney Failure

•Migraine

•Counteract Prescription Drug Effects

•Parkinson's disease

•Weight loss

[hamishm00]

Consider also switching to Ubiquinol.

[maxwatt]

I believe this is one of the things Spindler is testing in the NIA study.



The image is from LEF magazine; I have not checked out the validity of the study this is based on.

[Sebastian]

Consider also switching to Ubiquinol.

Only if you're over 40 really, otherwise regular old CoQ10 is fine.

[maxwatt]

Consider also switching to Ubiquinol.

Only if you're over 40 really, otherwise regular old CoQ10 is fine.

?? On what basis do you make this assertion?

[khakiman]

i know its too expensive for me

[Athanasios]

I wanted to add that a lot of the absorption arguments do not seem to be very relevant for those who only want to replace the amount lost from normal aging decline. Just 30mg of plain ol' CoQ10 raises blood levels significantly in healthy persons, as in 50-to-100% depending on starting levels. As you raise the dosage, the absorption is less but the initial low dose is absorbed quite well.

Maxwatt, an important point to note is that those are senescence accelerated mice.

[maxwatt]

I wanted to add that a lot of the absorption arguments do not seem to be very relevant for those who only want to replace the amount lost from normal aging decline. Just 30mg of plain ol' CoQ10 raises blood levels significantly in healthy persons, as in 50-to-100% depending on starting levels. As you raise the dosage, the absorption is less but the initial low dose is absorbed quite well.

Maxwatt, an important point to note is that those are senescence accelerated mice.

Thank you, it does say so right on the picture. CoQ10 does seem to provide some protection in Parkinson's without reversing it, though the dose needed seems to be 1200 mg thrice daily (I am too lazy to dig up the study in pub med, sorry). Other evidence is so far weak. What gene is turned off or missing might give some clue to CoQ10's mode of action, whether it translates to normal mice or humans is an open question, and doubtful. I am skeptical of everything at the moment. Also, mice do not have endogenous CoQ10, the use CoQ9 so any mouse result is suspect, it's far from a good model.

Why would reduced CoQ10 (ubiquinol) be superior to ubiquinone? Some studies claim higher circulating levels with supplementation. They do intra-convert in the body.

Edited by maxwatt, 29 March 2010 - 03:03 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

My thoughts on CoQ10.

For whatever reason, I am one of those people who experience extreme cramping and muscle issues (notably in my calves because I am a runner) when taking statins. CoQ10 completely reverses statin related cramping -for me-. We can label my comment as ancedotal or placebo effect, however, I would like to say that the effect is proven and noticeable in 'me'. From baseline, within a month of taking a stain while continuing my normal activity, I become symptomatic. Within a couple of weeks (or so) of supplementing 200mg of CoQ10 (note: I use the cheaper stuff: ubiquinone), my cramps magically go away. If I stop taking CoQ10, they magically come back within a couple of weeks ...which is then reversed again in a few weeks after restarting supplementation. To me, this is hard proven fact (at least in my body).

That is all.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 29 March 2010 - 05:16 PM.

[niner]

For whatever reason, I am one of those people who experience extreme cramping and muscle issues (notably in my calves because I am a runner) when taking statins. CoQ10 completely reverses statin related cramping -for me-. We can label my comment as ancedotal or placebo effect, however, I would like to say that the effect is proven and noticeable in 'me'. From baseline, within a month of taking a stain while continuing my normal activity, I become symptomatic. Within a couple of weeks (or so) of supplementing 200mg of CoQ10 (note: I use the cheaper stuff: ubiquinone), my cramps magically go away. If I stop taking CoQ10, they magically come back within a couple of weeks ...which is then reversed again in a few weeks after restarting supplementation. To me, this is hard proven fact (at least in my body).

Is this muscle cramping actually a manifestation of rhabdomyolysis? That's a known adverse effect that can sometimes happen with statins, and it's fairly serious. The alleviation of cramping that you see with coq10 sounds like it's real. In the link that bobdrake12 posted, reversing statin side effects was mentioned. (Misleadingly labeled as "prescription drug effects" at the top of the article.)

[nameless]

I'd think for most people (under 30) CoQ10 supplementation isn't needed. If 30+, perhaps a baby dose (30mg-50mg) could be warranted.

There is no data really suggesting it extends lifespan, but perhaps it could reduce some aging issues.

Unless you have a specific disease where larger doses are needed, I don't think ubiquinol is really necessary. Although perhaps for something like high BP, larger doses may be useful in lieu of BP meds.

Ubiquinol does absorb better in me, compared to CoQ10, but that may depend on the exact formulation too.

[mikeinnaples]

For whatever reason, I am one of those people who experience extreme cramping and muscle issues (notably in my calves because I am a runner) when taking statins. CoQ10 completely reverses statin related cramping -for me-. We can label my comment as ancedotal or placebo effect, however, I would like to say that the effect is proven and noticeable in 'me'. From baseline, within a month of taking a stain while continuing my normal activity, I become symptomatic. Within a couple of weeks (or so) of supplementing 200mg of CoQ10 (note: I use the cheaper stuff: ubiquinone), my cramps magically go away. If I stop taking CoQ10, they magically come back within a couple of weeks ...which is then reversed again in a few weeks after restarting supplementation. To me, this is hard proven fact (at least in my body).

Is this muscle cramping actually a manifestation of rhabdomyolysis? That's a known adverse effect that can sometimes happen with statins, and it's fairly serious. The alleviation of cramping that you see with coq10 sounds like it's real. In the link that bobdrake12 posted, reversing statin side effects was mentioned. (Misleadingly labeled as "prescription drug effects" at the top of the article.)

Rhabdomyolysis is a known side effect, as is myopathy. My symptoms and response to date has been pretty much text book myopathy.

Pasting in a few items of note:

"Treatment of hypercholesterolemia with Statins (3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A reductase inhibitors) is effective in the primary and secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease. However, statin use is often associated with a variety of muscle-related symptoms or myopathies. Myopathy may be related in part to statin inhibition of the endogenous synthesis of coenzyme Q10, an essential cofactor for mitochondrial energy production."

"Patients with myopathic symptoms were randomly assigned in a double-blinded protocol to treatment with coenzyme Q10 (100 mg/day, n = 18) or vitamin E (400 IU/day, n = 14) for 30 days. Muscle pain and pain interference with daily activities were assessed before and after treatment."

"After a 30-day intervention, pain severity decreased by 40% (p <0.001) and pain interference with daily activities decreased by 38% (p <0.02) in the group treated with coenzyme Q10. In contrast, no changes in pain severity (+9%, p = NS) or pain interference with daily activities (-11%, p = NS) was observed in the group treated with vitamin E."

(Am J Cardiol. 2007 May 15; 99(10):1409-12) on the effects of CoQ10 on statin treated patients.



It is also worth noting that Merck has a patent for a a CoQ10/statin combo. It also can be worth noting that Canada (but not the US) states CoQ10 should be taken with statins.

[Jasmine_Adams]

There is suggestive research that CoQ10 supplements help support heart health, help promote immune functions and help increase energy production in the body. It is also known to support healthy blood glucose levels and normal blood pressure. The body stops making CoQ10 around the age of 25. After this age, levels gradually begin to decrease. The use of certain prescription drugs, age and strenuous exercise can further deplete the levels of CoQ10 in the body. Supplementation therefore becomes necessary. I take CoQ10 supplements which contain a form of CoQ10 called Ubiquinol. This is the most bio-available form of CoQ10 and is eight times more active than Ubiquinone, the more common form found in most CoQ10 supplements.

Edited by maxwatt, 30 March 2010 - 11:28 AM.
gratuitous product placement

[mikeinnaples]

There is suggestive research that CoQ10 supplements help support heart health, help promote immune functions and help increase energy production in the body. It is also known to support healthy blood glucose levels and normal blood pressure. The body stops making CoQ10 around the age of 25. After this age, levels gradually begin to decrease. The use of certain prescription drugs, age and strenuous exercise can further deplete the levels of CoQ10 in the body. Supplementation therefore becomes necessary. I take CoQ10 supplements which contain a form of CoQ10 called Ubiquinol. This is the most bio-available form of CoQ10 and is eight times more active than Ubiquinone, the more common form found in most CoQ10 supplements.

Disregarding the fact that you only posted to spam your product, until the price point comes down on Ubiquinol, there is no reason to purchase it as you can simply take 'more' ubiquinone. Link to the research that it is 8x more effective?

Thanks

[Apchi]

Regarding the statins myopathy, If you didn't already, look this up:
http://www.snpedia.c...x.php/Rs4363657
5x increased myopathy risk for statin users

For whatever reason, I am one of those people who experience extreme cramping and muscle issues (notably in my calves because I am a runner) when taking statins. CoQ10 completely reverses statin related cramping -for me-. We can label my comment as ancedotal or placebo effect, however, I would like to say that the effect is proven and noticeable in 'me'. From baseline, within a month of taking a stain while continuing my normal activity, I become symptomatic. Within a couple of weeks (or so) of supplementing 200mg of CoQ10 (note: I use the cheaper stuff: ubiquinone), my cramps magically go away. If I stop taking CoQ10, they magically come back within a couple of weeks ...which is then reversed again in a few weeks after restarting supplementation. To me, this is hard proven fact (at least in my body).

Is this muscle cramping actually a manifestation of rhabdomyolysis? That's a known adverse effect that can sometimes happen with statins, and it's fairly serious. The alleviation of cramping that you see with coq10 sounds like it's real. In the link that bobdrake12 posted, reversing statin side effects was mentioned. (Misleadingly labeled as "prescription drug effects" at the top of the article.)

Rhabdomyolysis is a known side effect, as is myopathy. My symptoms and response to date has been pretty much text book myopathy.

Pasting in a few items of note:

"Treatment of hypercholesterolemia with Statins (3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A reductase inhibitors) is effective in the primary and secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease. However, statin use is often associated with a variety of muscle-related symptoms or myopathies. Myopathy may be related in part to statin inhibition of the endogenous synthesis of coenzyme Q10, an essential cofactor for mitochondrial energy production."

"Patients with myopathic symptoms were randomly assigned in a double-blinded protocol to treatment with coenzyme Q10 (100 mg/day, n = 18) or vitamin E (400 IU/day, n = 14) for 30 days. Muscle pain and pain interference with daily activities were assessed before and after treatment."

"After a 30-day intervention, pain severity decreased by 40% (p <0.001) and pain interference with daily activities decreased by 38% (p <0.02) in the group treated with coenzyme Q10. In contrast, no changes in pain severity (+9%, p = NS) or pain interference with daily activities (-11%, p = NS) was observed in the group treated with vitamin E."

(Am J Cardiol. 2007 May 15; 99(10):1409-12) on the effects of CoQ10 on statin treated patients.



It is also worth noting that Merck has a patent for a a CoQ10/statin combo. It also can be worth noting that Canada (but not the US) states CoQ10 should be taken with statins.

[tintinet]

I'd think for most people (under 30) CoQ10 supplementation isn't needed. If 30+, perhaps a baby dose (30mg-50mg) could be warranted.

There is no data really suggesting it extends lifespan, but perhaps it could reduce some aging issues.

Unless you have a specific disease where larger doses are needed, I don't think ubiquinol is really necessary. Although perhaps for something like high BP, larger doses may be useful in lieu of BP meds.

Ubiquinol does absorb better in me, compared to CoQ10, but that may depend on the exact formulation too.

How do you know it absorbs better in you?

[nameless]

How do you know it absorbs better in you?

I've had my levels tested before:

http://www.imminst.o...mp;hl=ubiquinol

I think the LEF data is basically hype (8x increase seems very unlikely), but for myself, my levels were quite a bit higher on a lower dose of ubiquinol, compared to ubiquinone -- estimate the absorption difference (in me) to be around 2-2.5x higher.

For most people, this won't matter, as they probably don't need high levels to begin with, so regular ubiquinone should be fine. And it's possible that taking 2-3x as much in ubiquinone would result in equal values.

[mikeinnaples]

How do you know it absorbs better in you?

I've had my levels tested before:

http://www.imminst.o...mp;hl=ubiquinol

I think the LEF data is basically hype (8x increase seems very unlikely), but for myself, my levels were quite a bit higher on a lower dose of ubiquinol, compared to ubiquinone -- estimate the absorption difference (in me) to be around 2-2.5x higher.

For most people, this won't matter, as they probably don't need high levels to begin with, so regular ubiquinone should be fine. And it's possible that taking 2-3x as much in ubiquinone would result in equal values.

I suppose I could use myself as a test subject for this given my very obvious indicator with the myopathy ..... but umm yeah, the calf cramps blow, so I will pass or use a test.

[nameless]

I suppose I could use myself as a test subject for this given my very obvious indicator with the myopathy ..... but umm yeah, the calf cramps blow, so I will pass or use a test.

If it was me, I'd get CoQ10 levels tested, as well as muscle breakdown serum markers (which I forget what are called, but doc should know).

If still taking a statin, you could ask your doctor about alternatives, such as niacin or red yeast rice. There was a semi-recent US study (sorry, don't have link handy) where red yeast was used in people who could not tolerate statins, and I believe they had very few side effects. A lot of Chinese studies on it too... typically, users seem to have less side effects than statin people do.

[mikeinnaples]

I suppose I could use myself as a test subject for this given my very obvious indicator with the myopathy ..... but umm yeah, the calf cramps blow, so I will pass or use a test.

If it was me, I'd get CoQ10 levels tested, as well as muscle breakdown serum markers (which I forget what are called, but doc should know).

If still taking a statin, you could ask your doctor about alternatives, such as niacin or red yeast rice. There was a semi-recent US study (sorry, don't have link handy) where red yeast was used in people who could not tolerate statins, and I believe they had very few side effects. A lot of Chinese studies on it too... typically, users seem to have less side effects than statin people do.

The CoQ10 manages it fine and I am already taking 2g of Nicotinic Acid. I actually feel that Niacin is the best route all together in dealing with Cholesterol with the one caveat being that is definately throws your glucose out of whack. (aside from my labs/experience with it, there have been links to some studies relatively recently in the forums here as well to research showing just that a well). I am pretty happy with my Cholesterol scores these days, and will have my latest labs back at the end of next week (getting blood draw on Monday with a Thursday appt) which will be my first at half that initial statin doseage and double the niacin. (20mg to 10mg simvastatin ..1g to 2g niacin). I should get CoQ10 levels tested as you mentioned, however, at this point I sort of feel that if I can maintain enough of a level to avoid myopathy even at my extreme amount of physical activity, then my CoQ10 levels have to be fairly stable now with supplementation. However, yeah, there is no replacing the labs.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 01 April 2010 - 11:55 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

On a side note, if you are having trouble getting Metformin prescribed and desire to beging taking it .....one obvious method to get your glucose up within range for a doctor to justify prescribing it is via Nicotinic Acid supplementation. Not sure I would recommend that , but it works (even if by accident for me).

[Jasmine_Adams]

There is suggestive research that CoQ10 supplements help support heart health, help promote immune functions and help increase energy production in the body. It is also known to support healthy blood glucose levels and normal blood pressure. The body stops making CoQ10 around the age of 25. After this age, levels gradually begin to decrease. The use of certain prescription drugs, age and strenuous exercise can further deplete the levels of CoQ10 in the body. Supplementation therefore becomes necessary. I take CoQ10 supplements which contain a form of CoQ10 called Ubiquinol. This is the most bio-available form of CoQ10 and is eight times more active than Ubiquinone, the more common form found in most CoQ10 supplements.

Disregarding the fact that you only posted to spam your product, until the price point comes down on Ubiquinol, there is no reason to purchase it as you can simply take 'more' ubiquinone. Link to the research that it is 8x more effective?

Thanks

Hey Mikeinaples. It is understandable to think that any one who mentions a product is scamming. There’s plenty of that happening on forums. Here’s an article I had read that points to studies that show Ubiquinol is more effective than Ubiquinone: http://www.nutricolo...through_web.pdf

[mikeinnaples]

Hey Mikeinaples. It is understandable to think that any one who mentions a product is scamming. There’s plenty of that happening on forums. Here’s an article I had read that points to studies that show Ubiquinol is more effective than Ubiquinone: http://www.nutricolo...through_web.pdf

I am a continual skeptic everytime I see someone with 1 post pushing a product. It is pretty common practice for those with no scruples.

[sentrysnipe]

^ Well, at least take it if you are on beta-blockers and/or statin medication. Actually any imminst member should ditch their statins and know better.

[mikeinnaples]

^ Well, at least take it if you are on beta-blockers and/or statin medication. Actually any imminst member should ditch their statins and know better.

That is a pretty silly thing to say. Statin's have thier uses and purposes and some people actually need to be taking them ....however, it shouldn't be your only approach to the problem.

[sentrysnipe]

^ Well, at least take it if you are on beta-blockers and/or statin medication. Actually any imminst member should ditch their statins and know better.

That is a pretty silly thing to say. Statin's have thier uses and purposes and some people actually need to be taking them ....however, it shouldn't be your only approach to the problem.

You haven't read the Taubes hypothesis? Statins work because they are blood thinners, period. Decreasing total cholesterol via one of the topmost pathways of cholesterol synthesis (HMG-CoA reductase enzyme) is probably one of the dumbest decisions you will ever make in your life, when GLA, PUFAs and a high fiber diet equally do the job, without depleting CoQ10 levels and develop rhabdomyolysis or atypical parkinsonism in the long run.

[mikeinnaples]

You haven't read the Taubes hypothesis? Statins work because they are blood thinners, period. Decreasing total cholesterol via one of the topmost pathways of cholesterol synthesis (HMG-CoA reductase enzyme) is probably one of the dumbest decisions you will ever make in your life, when GLA, PUFAs and a high fiber diet equally do the job, without depleting CoQ10 levels and develop rhabdomyolysis or atypical parkinsonism in the long run.

Taubes. If you are referring to guy with no real background to support his controversial claims, then yeah, I have read his stuff before. Unfortunately, while the guy does raise some concerns that are pretty interesting, he just doesn't have the background nor the experience to sway me away from actual data. And no, several attempts to alter my diet did not work enough to be worthwhile of permanently adopting. However, Nicotinic Acid, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil in my food, combined with a simvastatin did ...and drastically.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 08 April 2010 - 11:41 AM.

[shaggy]

You haven't read the Taubes hypothesis? Statins work because they are blood thinners, period. Decreasing total cholesterol via one of the topmost pathways of cholesterol synthesis (HMG-CoA reductase enzyme) is probably one of the dumbest decisions you will ever make in your life, when GLA, PUFAs and a high fiber diet equally do the job, without depleting CoQ10 levels and develop rhabdomyolysis or atypical parkinsonism in the long run.

Taubes. If you are referring to guy with no real background to support his controversial claims, then yeah, I have read his stuff before. Unfortunately, while the guy does raise some concerns that are pretty interesting, he just doesn't have the background nor the experience to sway me away from actual data. And no, several attempts to alter my diet did not work enough to be worthwhile of permanently adopting. However, Nicotinic Acid, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil in my food, combined with a simvastatin did ...and drastically.

What were your numbers....did you try red yeast rice?

[mikeinnaples]

You haven't read the Taubes hypothesis? Statins work because they are blood thinners, period. Decreasing total cholesterol via one of the topmost pathways of cholesterol synthesis (HMG-CoA reductase enzyme) is probably one of the dumbest decisions you will ever make in your life, when GLA, PUFAs and a high fiber diet equally do the job, without depleting CoQ10 levels and develop rhabdomyolysis or atypical parkinsonism in the long run.

Taubes. If you are referring to guy with no real background to support his controversial claims, then yeah, I have read his stuff before. Unfortunately, while the guy does raise some concerns that are pretty interesting, he just doesn't have the background nor the experience to sway me away from actual data. And no, several attempts to alter my diet did not work enough to be worthwhile of permanently adopting. However, Nicotinic Acid, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil in my food, combined with a simvastatin did ...and drastically.

What were your numbers....did you try red yeast rice?

My latest (from yesterday): http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=398120


While not perfect numbers, they are pretty good and a drastic improvement from my baseline.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 09 April 2010 - 11:56 AM.