55 replies to this topic

[shaggy]

You haven't read the Taubes hypothesis? Statins work because they are blood thinners, period. Decreasing total cholesterol via one of the topmost pathways of cholesterol synthesis (HMG-CoA reductase enzyme) is probably one of the dumbest decisions you will ever make in your life, when GLA, PUFAs and a high fiber diet equally do the job, without depleting CoQ10 levels and develop rhabdomyolysis or atypical parkinsonism in the long run.

Taubes. If you are referring to guy with no real background to support his controversial claims, then yeah, I have read his stuff before. Unfortunately, while the guy does raise some concerns that are pretty interesting, he just doesn't have the background nor the experience to sway me away from actual data. And no, several attempts to alter my diet did not work enough to be worthwhile of permanently adopting. However, Nicotinic Acid, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil in my food, combined with a simvastatin did ...and drastically.

What were your numbers....did you try red yeast rice?

My latest (from yesterday): http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=398120


While not perfect numbers, they are pretty good and a drastic improvement from my baseline.

Very impressive imo, never had my HDL better than LDL, within 10 points is as good as it gets for me. Although I have only ever taken RYR and not pharmaceutical statins. What were your numbers like before statins?

[sentrysnipe]

You haven't read the Taubes hypothesis? Statins work because they are blood thinners, period. Decreasing total cholesterol via one of the topmost pathways of cholesterol synthesis (HMG-CoA reductase enzyme) is probably one of the dumbest decisions you will ever make in your life, when GLA, PUFAs and a high fiber diet equally do the job, without depleting CoQ10 levels and develop rhabdomyolysis or atypical parkinsonism in the long run.

Taubes. If you are referring to guy with no real background to support his controversial claims, then yeah, I have read his stuff before. Unfortunately, while the guy does raise some concerns that are pretty interesting, he just doesn't have the background nor the experience to sway me away from actual data. And no, several attempts to alter my diet did not work enough to be worthwhile of permanently adopting. However, Nicotinic Acid, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil in my food, combined with a simvastatin did ...and drastically.

Sir, I didn't see that Vitamin K, MK-4 and MK-7, and GLA were ever mentioned. You think Bill Clinton doesn't have the same Lipid profiles as you do? You can't prevent atherosclerosis with that regimen per se. Your arteries will still get clogged with calcified plaque and never inhibit fatty streak formation. The forms of niacin and CoQ10 administered are likewise crucial.

And re: Red Yeast Rice above, please don't think it's much better than Statin Rx (lova specifically) when they both have the same MoA, as HMG-CoA-rI's, just that statin is most probably way cheaper, and regulated, so it's better. That is why you see RYR is usually coupled with CoQ10 in some brands. So please have your ALT/AST enzymes and serum CoQ10 regularly checked.

[niner]

You think Bill Clinton doesn't have the same Lipid profiles as you do?

Clinton has a lipid profile as good as Mikes? That would surprise me a little. Is it public knowledge?

[shifter]

I believe this is one of the things Spindler is testing in the NIA study.



The image is from LEF magazine; I have not checked out the validity of the study this is based on.

Sorry, just have to say I love the fact in the top 2 images, they show you the side of the mouse where it had its ocular bleed. It also appears they wiped the mouse a bit (like I do using ethanol before cutting them open) so that they look really rough. The mouse they want you to like, isn't wet or has a busted eye.... yet.

While I'm not disputing the research, I hate those tactics used as they think we are too dumb to notice.

[health_nutty]

You think Bill Clinton doesn't have the same Lipid profiles as you do?

Clinton has a lipid profile as good as Mikes? That would surprise me a little. Is it public knowledge?

Mike's cholesterol numbers are outstanding.

Bill Clinton's are not:
http://www.lef.org/m...004_awsi_01.htm

"One of the unique aspects of being president of the United States is that details of your medical history are made public every year. According to the results of the last exam performed before he left the White House, Bill Clinton’s total cholesterol was 233 mg/dL, which is not outrageously high. Since optimal cholesterol levels are now considered below 200 mg/dL,1 the news media made a big deal over the fact that Clinton’s cholesterol was too high.

A more significant problem that the news media only touched on was that the former president’s LDL level was a dangerous 177 mg/dL. New guidelines call for LDL to be below 100 mg/dL, and some doctors want LDL to be below 70 mg/dL in those suffering from coronary artery disease.2 The Life Extension Foundation was first to advocate that LDL levels should be below 100 mg/dL. Until recently, most mainstream doctors believed that an LDL of 130 mg/dL was all right.

Clinton’s blood pressure of 136/84 used to be considered acceptable, but conventional medicine has finally realized that blood pressure over 119/79 exposes one to greater risks of coronary artery disease, stroke, kidney failure, and other diseases.3 One of the drawbacks of being president is that you get free health care provided by government doctors who are not always up to date on new disease risk factors."

Edited by health_nutty, 10 April 2010 - 05:57 AM.

[Johann]

I'm incredulous: there are individuals still buying into the statin magic tricks? C'mon, gimme break! Even the nonhealth related BusinessWeek magazine ran a devastating piece on Lipitor.

Bottom line: Statins are a 30 Billion Dollar a year scam.

And its not all about the cholesterol. Keeping adequate antioxidant levels is important as well.

If I wanted to keep a healthy cardiovascular system:
Ubiquinol
Brazil nuts for the Selenium which keeps the glutathione levels up.
Vitamin C in the form of either Ester C or Sodium Ascorbate or even the newer Liposomal Encapsulated type.
Coconut Oil
B vitamins
Trimethylglycine
ALCAR (carnitine is good for the heart)
Green Tea
Cut out sugars, flours, grains..
Fish Oil
Vitamin E (mixed tocopherols and tocotreniols)

Anyone have any more suggestions?

Edited by Johann, 10 April 2010 - 11:55 AM.

[shaggy]

You haven't read the Taubes hypothesis? Statins work because they are blood thinners, period. Decreasing total cholesterol via one of the topmost pathways of cholesterol synthesis (HMG-CoA reductase enzyme) is probably one of the dumbest decisions you will ever make in your life, when GLA, PUFAs and a high fiber diet equally do the job, without depleting CoQ10 levels and develop rhabdomyolysis or atypical parkinsonism in the long run.

Taubes. If you are referring to guy with no real background to support his controversial claims, then yeah, I have read his stuff before. Unfortunately, while the guy does raise some concerns that are pretty interesting, he just doesn't have the background nor the experience to sway me away from actual data. And no, several attempts to alter my diet did not work enough to be worthwhile of permanently adopting. However, Nicotinic Acid, Fish Oil, Coconut Oil in my food, combined with a simvastatin did ...and drastically.

Sir, I didn't see that Vitamin K, MK-4 and MK-7, and GLA were ever mentioned. You think Bill Clinton doesn't have the same Lipid profiles as you do? You can't prevent atherosclerosis with that regimen per se. Your arteries will still get clogged with calcified plaque and never inhibit fatty streak formation. The forms of niacin and CoQ10 administered are likewise crucial.

And re: Red Yeast Rice above, please don't think it's much better than Statin Rx (lova specifically) when they both have the same MoA, as HMG-CoA-rI's, just that statin is most probably way cheaper, and regulated, so it's better. That is why you see RYR is usually coupled with CoQ10 in some brands. So please have your ALT/AST enzymes and serum CoQ10 regularly checked.

RYR is proving to be effective and safe from recent research on improving blood lipids...

RYR contains a mixture of monacolins unlike lovastatin, which seems to offer additional benefits, including anti-cancer effects. To classify RYR as a poor quality lovastatin is short sighted in my opinion. For the record, I have had several LFT and all came back good whilst taking 2.4 grams of RYR daily.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20102918

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19528562

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17869085

[nameless]

Although veering a bit off of the original topic, I do agree with shaggy that RYR is potentially very interesting. The anti-cancer thing I read about in a China study done several years ago (not sure if it's the same study posted above or not), but I think it involved several types of cancer. Although the problem is that exact extract isn't really available in the US.

I wouldn't lump RYR in with lovastatin, even though there is some risk of similar side effects, albeit they seem much less common than statin induced problems. There very well could be other mechanisms in play due to the mixture of monacolins.
For Mikeinnaples, since his lipids now look excellent, he may want to consider dropping the statin and sticking with niacin only (with doctor approval only) or maybe ask his doctor about RYR instead. Worst case, if lipids go bad, he can always go back to taking the statin.

Edited by nameless, 11 April 2010 - 06:19 PM.

[PWAIN]

I thought manufacturers of RYR had been required to remove the active ingredient?

[nameless]

I thought manufacturers of RYR had been required to remove the active ingredient?

That's somewhat of a grey area. Manufacturers who artificially spiked the monacolin content or used RYR with really high monacolin amounts were stopped, but the brands with levels of monacolin-K at natural levels were left alone (I think). Consumer labs did a study a while ago showing what brands still had monacolins in them and which had the highest percentages. The other monacolins besides K may also play a role regarding lipid lowering too, and they were never removed, although the amount in supplements vary by brand.

Edited by nameless, 12 April 2010 - 04:22 AM.

[Cameron]

I'm incredulous: there are individuals still buying into the statin magic tricks? C'mon, gimme break! Even the nonhealth related BusinessWeek magazine ran a devastating piece on Lipitor.

Bottom line: Statins are a 30 Billion Dollar a year scam.

And its not all about the cholesterol. Keeping adequate antioxidant levels is important as well.

If I wanted to keep a healthy cardiovascular system:
Ubiquinol
Brazil nuts for the Selenium which keeps the glutathione levels up.
Vitamin C in the form of either Ester C or Sodium Ascorbate or even the newer Liposomal Encapsulated type.
Coconut Oil
B vitamins
Trimethylglycine
ALCAR (carnitine is good for the heart)
Green Tea
Cut out sugars, flours, grains..
Fish Oil
Vitamin E (mixed tocopherols and tocotreniols)

Anyone have any more suggestions?

Hmmm, what about pomegranate(I know there are problems when combining it with statins, but if you exclude statins it should be usable, no?)?

I read somewhere it could reverse atherosclerosis(I'd have to check on this.) when used with statins, later it was found to also have negative interactions with statins. But if you can improve lipid profiles through alternate methods, it's plausible it might still be able to do that.

Edited by Cameron, 13 April 2010 - 02:02 AM.

[neogenic]

Cocoa, grape seed extract/pycnogenol, cayenne extract (the "hotter" the better), and resveratrol come to mind. Magnesium and Ribose as well.

[aaCharley]

I'm incredulous: there are individuals still buying into the statin magic tricks? C'mon, gimme break! Even the nonhealth related BusinessWeek magazine ran a devastating piece on Lipitor.

Bottom line: Statins are a 30 Billion Dollar a year scam.

And its not all about the cholesterol. Keeping adequate antioxidant levels is important as well.

If I wanted to keep a healthy cardiovascular system:
Ubiquinol
Brazil nuts for the Selenium which keeps the glutathione levels up.
Vitamin C in the form of either Ester C or Sodium Ascorbate or even the newer Liposomal Encapsulated type.
Coconut Oil
B vitamins
Trimethylglycine
ALCAR (carnitine is good for the heart)
Green Tea
Cut out sugars, flours, grains..
Fish Oil
Vitamin E (mixed tocopherols and tocotreniols)

Anyone have any more suggestions?

Adding a few ounces of Pomegranate juice could be helpful. Some studies seem to indicate that, combined with the fish oil and ubiquinol, the three can actually reduce plaque buildup.

[Logan]

Also, garlic and aged garlic for cardiovascular health.

[health_nutty]

I'm incredulous: there are individuals still buying into the statin magic tricks? C'mon, gimme break! Even the nonhealth related BusinessWeek magazine ran a devastating piece on Lipitor.

Bottom line: Statins are a 30 Billion Dollar a year scam.

And its not all about the cholesterol. Keeping adequate antioxidant levels is important as well.

If I wanted to keep a healthy cardiovascular system:
Ubiquinol
Brazil nuts for the Selenium which keeps the glutathione levels up.
Vitamin C in the form of either Ester C or Sodium Ascorbate or even the newer Liposomal Encapsulated type.
Coconut Oil
B vitamins
Trimethylglycine
ALCAR (carnitine is good for the heart)
Green Tea
Cut out sugars, flours, grains..
Fish Oil
Vitamin E (mixed tocopherols and tocotreniols)

Anyone have any more suggestions?

Adding a few ounces of Pomegranate juice could be helpful. Some studies seem to indicate that, combined with the fish oil and ubiquinol, the three can actually reduce plaque buildup.

I've seen studies that show 6oz of pomogranate juice alone reduces artery plaque. Which studies are you refering to? I'd love to read them.

[okok]

I've recently tried idebenone, and prefer it over Q10. Does anyone mix these two?

[Logan]

Cocoa, grape seed extract/pycnogenol, cayenne extract (the "hotter" the better), and resveratrol come to mind. Magnesium and Ribose as well.

I've heard that D Ribose is useless. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

[FunkOdyssey]

The first time I take a large dose of it, I get an obvious boost of energy and feel physically quite hot. Subsequent doses don't do anything noticeable. If some time passes and I try it again, I'll get those initial effects again (once).

[Logan]

The first time I take a large dose of it, I get an obvious boost of energy and feel physically quite hot. Subsequent doses don't do anything noticeable. If some time passes and I try it again, I'll get those initial effects again (once).

Huh, so I wonder if it would be useful on workout days if one were working out every other day. Yeah a co-worker of mine said he noticed an immediate boost in energy and relief from joint pain/stiffness. I guess it's at least worth trying. Thanks for the feedback.

[eml256]

coenzyme q 10 has not been tested for its protection from parkinson's. the study noted was the use of 3 different doseage levels of coQ10 for paitients who already had parkinson's. these were individuals who were not taking any anti parkinson meds yet, early in their disease. t hose who took the 1200 mgm dose were shown to have a slower progression of symptoms than the other 2 groups. the study population was very small, thus whether the numbers are clinically significant is unknown. there are currently several ongoing clinical trials utilizing even larger doses for Huntington's, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. The use of coQ10 in parkinson's was based upon the theory that mitochondrial dysfunction is etiological in parkinson's and that patients with Parkinson's were found to have lower coQ10 levels in their platelets and muscle tissue. thus the researchers decided to determine if increasing coQ10 levels could fix the mitochondrial dysfunction. there are no definitive answers yet.

[eml256]

I suppose I could use myself as a test subject for this given my very obvious indicator with the myopathy ..... but umm yeah, the calf cramps blow, so I will pass or use a test.

If it was me, I'd get CoQ10 levels tested, as well as muscle breakdown serum markers (which I forget what are called, but doc should know).

If still taking a statin, you could ask your doctor about alternatives, such as niacin or red yeast rice. There was a semi-recent US study (sorry, don't have link handy) where red yeast was used in people who could not tolerate statins, and I believe they had very few side effects. A lot of Chinese studies on it too... typically, users seem to have less side effects than statin people do.

If you take red yeast rice YOU ARE TAKING A STATIN. RYR 's active ingredient is Megacolin K, the same ingredient of the first satin ever manufactured, Mevacor. It is a much lower dose statin, but a statin nonetheless. and there are many instances of muscle damage from statins without increased CPK levels; google "dr. paul Phillips" san diego ca and read the studies he has published. or Baker and Tarnopolsky (http://www.annals.or...1.full.pdf html)
One may also access dr. duane graveline's web site regarding adverse statin efects.

[eml256]

red yeast rice (RYR) IS A STATIN, albeit a lower potency one than the current statins. RYR 's effective ingredient t is Monacolin K, the same ingredient in Mevacor, the first statin synthesized by Merck. thus if one takes RYR, one is taking a statin.

Edited by eml256, 06 July 2010 - 09:40 PM.

[nameless]

Yep, it's a baby-dose statin. The other monacolins found in red yeast rice may have a benefit too, outside of it's statin properties. It's a possible option for those who cannot tolerate regular statins. It wouldn't be my first choice, but depending on risk factors, genetics and lipid numbers, it may be something to consider for some. Based on available studies, as well as dietary intake in Asian populations, it appears to be safer than regular statins.

aaCharley: I'm also interested if you have seen any data regarding ubiquinol (or ubiquinol/pom/fish oil) reducing plaque buildup. All I have seen is that pomegranate plaque study.

Edited by nameless, 06 July 2010 - 10:05 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Cocoa, grape seed extract/pycnogenol, cayenne extract (the "hotter" the better), and resveratrol come to mind. Magnesium and Ribose as well.

I've heard that D Ribose is useless. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Aside from AGE issues, I use it and it gives me a great lift a day later.

[eml256]

seems to me d-Ribose is utilized for mitochondrial cytopathy

[longevitynow]

CoQ10 has done wonders for my gums for 25 years and I tend to think it has been good for other parts of my body also. I've also found the LEF image questionable. The CoQ10 (Ubiquinone) image mouse looks worse than the control mouse. Hopefully he really came from the CoQ10 (Ubiquinone) group, but maybe he was the least healthy one they could find (or maybe they roughed him up a bit before putting him in the line-up). Rumor is the Ubiquinol mouse just got a make-over at the hair dresser...