38 replies to this topic

[chrono]

As long as I can remember, I've had an aversion to caffeine. Never drank soda or coffee. Right now, I only keep it around for situations when I have to drive when I'm a little tired. If I ever take it for increased energy, help studying, etc., I inevitably regret it.

I'm not normally an anxious person; what anxiety I do have is very low-level, and always under control. I can take any other stimulant out there with no adverse effects, except perhaps a little discomfort with excessive physical stimulation in the strong ones. I have a script for adderall which helps me tremendously, and from which I experience almost no negative side effects.

But even relatively small amounts of caffeine give me fairly severe anxiety. Today I took two doses of 50mg each, about 6-7 hours apart (first time in a month or so). At the moment I'm having trouble staying on-task; I feel like I should be doing something, anything else, but I'm experiencing such an uncharacteristic sense of wrongness (when I'm usually very reflective and content) that I'm having trouble deriving pleasure from things I usually enjoy. It's almost like a fidgety paranoia. I can close my eyes and take deep breaths, and still my mind quite easily, but there is still this pervasive feeling of wrongness that seems well outside my ability to manipulate.

I wonder if anyone could shed some light on the mechanism for this unusual reaction? Any agent that people use to decrease anxiety due to caffeine, which wouldn't negate its energy? I'd like very much to be able to use it occasionally without feeling so unlike myself

[Heisenberg]

As long as I can remember, I've had an aversion to caffeine. Never drank soda or coffee. Right now, I only keep it around for situations when I have to drive when I'm a little tired. If I ever take it for increased energy, help studying, etc., I inevitably regret it.

I'm not normally an anxious person; what anxiety I do have is very low-level, and always under control. I can take any other stimulant out there with no adverse effects, except perhaps a little discomfort with excessive physical stimulation in the strong ones. I have a script for adderall which helps me tremendously, and from which I experience almost no negative side effects.

But even relatively small amounts of caffeine give me fairly severe anxiety. Today I took two doses of 50mg each, about 6-7 hours apart (first time in a month or so). At the moment I'm having trouble staying on-task; I feel like I should be doing something, anything else, but I'm experiencing such an uncharacteristic sense of wrongness (when I'm usually very reflective and content) that I'm having trouble deriving pleasure from things I usually enjoy. It's almost like a fidgety paranoia. I can close my eyes and take deep breaths, and still my mind quite easily, but there is still this pervasive feeling of wrongness that seems well outside my ability to manipulate.

I wonder if anyone could shed some light on the mechanism for this unusual reaction? Any agent that people use to decrease anxiety due to caffeine, which wouldn't negate its energy? I'd like very much to be able to use it occasionally without feeling so unlike myself

I know this feeling perfectly well. I have caffeine capsules of 200mg, and will break one down to last for about 2 weeks. That is a mini dose, but I found it to enhance effects of other supplements I am taking, especially ritalin. Anything above 10mg per dose will induce the symptoms you describe.

[chrono]

I know this feeling perfectly well. I have caffeine capsules of 200mg, and will break one down to last for about 2 weeks. That is a mini dose, but I found it to enhance effects of other supplements I am taking, especially ritalin. Anything above 10mg per dose will induce the symptoms you describe.

Very interesting! What supplements do you find are enhanced at that dosage?

Are you able to take more than one dose in a day, or does that compound effects too much? How (in)frequently do you take it, and do you get any tolerance?

[KimberCT]

Try some magnesium taurinate with the caffeine.

[winston]

"Wrongness" explains it perfectly, I know what you mean. It only happens at large doses though. Under 200 and I'm not really sure if I notice anything.

[Yearningforyears]

Yup!

Bhringaraj / shankapushi-combo as tea. Effect is somewhat short lived.

OR (the big gun): Calamus americanus dried root. Chew on a small bit, or just let it rest behind the upper lip. Gets rid of all anxiety, and most emotions as well. Still feels good though=)

[chrono]

Try some magnesium taurinate with the caffeine.

I'm actually doing a very gradual Mg taurate taper at the moment. Up to about 3g a few hours before bed (so about 270mg Mg + 2.7g taurine). Haven't tried it during the day, because I find it quite sedating at night.

Any suggestions as to a dose of Mg taurate, or the right amount of taurine for anxiolysis but without sedation?

Bhringaraj / shankapushi-combo as tea. Effect is somewhat short lived.

Can you clarify, is this anti-anxiety, or as a replacement for caffeine?

Edited by chrono, 07 April 2010 - 08:38 PM.

[Heisenberg]

I know this feeling perfectly well. I have caffeine capsules of 200mg, and will break one down to last for about 2 weeks. That is a mini dose, but I found it to enhance effects of other supplements I am taking, especially ritalin. Anything above 10mg per dose will induce the symptoms you describe.

Very interesting! What supplements do you find are enhanced at that dosage?

Are you able to take more than one dose in a day, or does that compound effects too much? How (in)frequently do you take it, and do you get any tolerance?

Mainly the effect of amphetamine, such as Ritalin, is enhanced. I have not sufficiently studied piracetam and other nootropics along with caffeine. I take about 10-15mg throughout the day, with the last dose no later than 3 PM. There are some tolerance issues, mainly headaches when I do not take caffeine during the weekends, which go away immediately after taking a few mg. Such low doses should not really be noticeable, however, I do miss them when I forget them.

[Yearningforyears]

Oh sorry =)

It´s anti anxiety. Very calming without being too sedating (at least for me). Gives a clear headed feeling and general body relaxation.
Sometimes it makes me a bit too calm, so I´d have a cup of coffee just to balance things out

[Yearningforyears]

double post

Edited by Nicholas, 07 April 2010 - 09:25 PM.

[Imagination]

Theanine is supposed to reduce the anxiety effects of caffiene and still keeping the alertness, I haven't had much of an effect from it myself, it's also pretty expensive. Could try just drinking green tea instead which contains theanine and caffiene.

[jokerace]

Theanine will reduce and/or eliminate the anxiety from caffeine.


Jason

[Jurence]

Theanine will reduce and/or eliminate the anxiety from caffeine.


Jason

Seconded.

[tlm884]

Theanine will reduce and/or eliminate the anxiety from caffeine.


Jason

Seconded.

You could also try taurine. It is added into energy drinks to prevent adverse side effects. 1000mg along with the caffeine should work

[winston]

Propranolol has been said to reduce the anxiety effects of caffeine by some people.

[polybi]

Propranolol has been said to reduce the anxiety effects of caffeine by some people.

bit "extreme" i would think just take less caffeine

[winston]

Yeah, not worth it unless you get really well stimulated/motivated from high doses and other supps haven't helped out.

[Guacamolium]

As stated already and personally works wonders for a caffeine-sensitive person like myself, L-theanine will obliterate caffeine's anxiety-inducing effects. I'm sure a beta-blocker like propranolol as mentioned would too.

[chrono]

I've been trying low doses off and on for a few weeks, about 10-12mg. I'm not getting that strong, pervasive feeling of wrongness at this dose. But I am still feeling noticeable low-level anxiety. A tendency for racing trains of anxious thoughts which usually don't concern me greatly. And a hard time studying in a relaxed way...I usually enjoy pursuing knowledge and analysis immensely while sober, or with piracetam/ALCAR. Even though this dose of caffeine doesn't give me a lot of energy, I still feel like I don't know what to do with it, or myself. I invariably look forward to when it will wear off.

Am looking forward to trying L-theanine, when money allows.

[Imagination]

I'm having good results with theanine at the moment, would prefer taurine as it is a lot cheaper, not really tried this yet.

[medievil]

I dont have any anxiety when i drink energy drinks, they are alot smoother then energy tabs for some reason.

[chrono]

Red Bull (8.4oz) contains 1000mg taurine + 80mg caffeine. Apparently some claims have been made that it's there to enhance athletic performance or improve neural functioning; see Debunking the Effects of Taurine in Red Bull Energy Drink for a short discussion of why this is problematic. In some of my googlings about caffeine anxiety, I saw a theory that it's there to reduce peripheral stimulation (jitters) and maybe reduce anxiety. It makes sense that they would want to downplay the possibility that caffeine can cause these effects, and instead advertise some of the other possible benefits of taurine.

So I have some Magnesium Taurate I've been taking before bed every night. I tried some this morning, a dose containing about 900mg taurine. Was yawning and feeling pretty sleepy after about 20 minutes. I took 12mg of caffeine, and within half an hour was feeling the energy, but without as much of the anxiety or racing thoughts; somewhat "energetically relaxed." But within another half hour, I was starting to feel the somnolence again, and having trouble paying attention to what I was reading. I have some things to get done today, so I took my usual dose of ALCAR and piracetam. Am actually feeling quite balanced at the moment, but taking something that makes me sleepy/calm to balance something that makes me energetic/anxious seems a little pharmacologically clumsy, within the larger goal of cognitive enhancement.

I'll experiment some more this week when I have some downtime, to see how I tolerate larger doses of caffeine, or smaller doses of taurine.

[chrono]

I have a bottle of 100mg L-theanine (SunTheanine) that I've been experimenting with for the past month or so. When it works, it certainly knocks out the anxiety pretty completely.

At lower dosages of caffeine (say, 10-30mg?), equipotent amounts of L-theanine seem to be effective. If I take 50-100mg though, 100mg L-theanine sometimes leaves me very jittery. I'll start using more in these instances, but I'm wondering what kinds of doses other people have found effective?

One of my best results with caffeine so far was with 50mg caffeine and 100mg L-theanine, with 3g L-tyrosine taken much earlier in the day (one of my first trials with this, as I usually use NALT). In fact, I didn't feel anything from the tyrosine until after I had taken the other two. Anyone else noticed anything synergistic between tyrosine and caffeine/theanine?

Edited by chrono, 04 June 2010 - 03:32 PM.

[alexd]

L theanine is reasonably priced at puritan.com or swanson.com. It works.

[health_nutty]

Theanine will reduce and/or eliminate the anxiety from caffeine.


Jason

Seconded.

You could also try taurine. It is added into energy drinks to prevent adverse side effects. 1000mg along with the caffeine should work

I use the same dosage: 100mg of caffeine with 1000mg of taurine works well.

[babcock]

Green tea is a staple in my diet because I find it gives me the perfect blend (for me) of caffeine and theanine. I drink it all morning and feel great without jitters/anxiety all day.

[aLurker]

Just to one-up babcock I'll just chime in that white tea is even better for you and also contains less caffeine than green tea. Probably the best source of caffeine you'll ever find.

[babcock]

Just to one-up babcock I'll just chime in that white tea is even better for you and also contains less caffeine than green tea. Probably the best source of caffeine you'll ever find.

Enjoyed my Earl Grey White Tea this morning. Love it.

[winston]

Early in the thread i suggested beta blockers might be useful for this purpose. I did something of a test with 100mg atenolol + 350mg caffeine. It certainly changed the "caffeine high." I didn't get any anxiety, but I also didn't get nearly as much stimulation as I would expect from such a large dose of caffeine. I guess that would suggest atenolol was working directly against caffeines primary mechanism of stimulation (wordy but I don't know how else to say it)?

I might do some tests at different doses and also trying metoprolol. Maybe it will be different because it crosses the BBB, while atenolol doesn't.

[chrono]

Early in the thread i suggested beta blockers might be useful for this purpose. I did something of a test with 100mg atenolol + 350mg caffeine. It certainly changed the "caffeine high." I didn't get any anxiety, but I also didn't get nearly as much stimulation as I would expect from such a large dose of caffeine.

That's pretty interesting, because as you say, atenolol only crosses the BBB in comparably small amounts. Do you usually find it gives you any central/mental effects, or just physical?

Will be interested to hear how meto works.