36 replies to this topic

[dumbdumb]

Some nootropics I'm taking are the one, and some the other. Does this fact only mean that I ought to eat something with the fat soluble ones and drink something with the water soluble ones - or is there more to it? For example, will the fat soluble ones have a longer "staying power," or be more effective in crossing the blood-brain barrier?

Thank you.

[luv2increase]

Water soluble ---> Take on empty stomach with water
Fat soluble ---> Take with food

[dumbdumb]

Would I not be covered on both fronts if I took my supplements/nootropics, both water-soluble and fat-soluble alike, on an empty stomach with coffee and lots of cream/milk? Water, fat and caffeine would then be present in sufficient amounts to nurture absorption - wouldn't they?

[Galantamine]

Some nootropics I'm taking are the one, and some the other. Does this fact only mean that I ought to eat something with the fat soluble ones and drink something with the water soluble ones - or is there more to it? For example, will the fat soluble ones have a longer "staying power," or be more effective in crossing the blood-brain barrier?

Thank you.

Unless it has a specific transporter, a fat soluble drug is more apt to cross the BBB. As far as taking with food or not, exc. - the purpose of this is simply to put the drug into solution. A fat soluble drug taken on an empty stomach without fat is less capable of being absorbed across the intestinal lumen. The converse is also true of water soluble drugs.

[Advanc3d]

would it work as good if you took fishoil being a fat provider with aniracetam on a empty stomach

[ntenhue]

would it work as good if you took fishoil being a fat provider with aniracetam on a empty stomach

Would the fish oil not be used for energy rather than being stored as fat if taken with an empty stomach?

[Galantamine]

would it work as good if you took fishoil being a fat provider with aniracetam on a empty stomach

It would work ideally if you took both with food. Taking just fish oil with aniracetam would not elicit enough bile for proper emulsification and subsequent absorption.

[mattblack UK]

Just a quick question for all you experts in here. Below is a list of Nootropics that I am considering for use. What I would liek to know though is would they all be taken at the same time or do I need to take some on an empty stomach and some with food?

Idebenone
Deprenyl
Piracetam
CDP Choline
Picamilon
Sulbutiamine
Lions Mane
Adrafinil
ALCAR

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can clarify this for me

[chrono]

Drugs are generally absorbed better and faster on an empty stomach, unless they're fat soluble. Piracetam and ALCAR work much better for me on an empty stomach or a while after meals, but I can't comment specifically on the others.

[spider]

Of the list above, I take picamilon on empty stomach. The other items can be taken regardless of empty or full stomach IME.

[shifter]

Deprenyl = definately with food (should say anyway)

But try to keep under tongue for some time as well.

[KimberCT]

Idebenone should be taken with food (fat soluable).

Anyone know about choline sources? I was searching for that answer when I found this thread.

[LabRat84]

Idebenone should be taken with food (fat soluable).

Anyone know about choline sources? I was searching for that answer when I found this thread.

Depends on the choline source.
Choline itself: water-soluble
Lecithin: fat-soluble
Phosphotidyl choline: fat-soluble
Alpha-GPC: fat soluble
CDP-choline: not sure, it looks water-soluble though

The general rule is to take anything fat-soluble with food (that contains fat) and anything water-soluble on an empty stomach, unless it causes GI distress. Amino acids should be taken on an empty stomach if possible; the sulfur-containing ones (cysteine, methionine, and their derivatives) can cause stomach upset and smell/taste unpleasant if not coated.

Edited by LabRat84, 24 April 2010 - 04:10 PM.

[chrono]

Anyone know about choline sources? I was searching for that answer when I found this thread.

Choline itself is water soluble, for what it's worth.

EDIT: should reload my browser windows more often. Thanks for that info labrat, very helpful.

I saw a mention somewhere here that taking supplements with a heavy meal might be a bad idea, even if they're fat soluble, as food mass (especially fiber?) can inhibit absorption. Can you comment on that, by any chance? Someone said they take their fish oil/fat solubles away from a meal with a couple grams of olive oil.

Edited by chrono, 24 April 2010 - 04:28 PM.

[LabRat84]

Anyone know about choline sources? I was searching for that answer when I found this thread.

Choline itself is water soluble, for what it's worth.

EDIT: should reload my browser windows more often. Thanks for that info labrat, very helpful.

I saw a mention somewhere here that taking supplements with a heavy meal might be a bad idea, even if they're fat soluble, as food mass (especially fiber?) can inhibit absorption. Can you comment on that, by any chance? Someone said they take their fish oil/fat solubles away from a meal with a couple grams of olive oil.

It's possible that fiber could prevent absorption of certain supplements by 1) trapping the molecules in bulk (although I don't think this happens until the colon) and 2) speeding up the movement of food through the small intestine, leaving less time for absorption. Taking supplements with any large meal will probably result in less-than-optimal absorption.
Still, fiber is healthy and should not be neglected. Your body is built to obtain macro- and micro-nutrients from food, not from supplements. Keep that in mind. What might speed absorption from supplements might also compromise your ability to get nutrition from food, the "old-fashioned" way.

Most drugs are absorbed in the small intestine. I suppose water-soluble drugs are delivered via the large intestine too. Very few are actually delivered through the stomach, but must survive the acidic environment and enzymes present in the stomach. The stomach has a natural coating that prevents substances from entering the bloodstream (the breakdown of that coating and subsequent damage by stomach acid is what causes ulcers).

If you want to take supps in the morning, eat a breakfast that contains some fat (full-fat yogurt, cottage cheese, other cheeses, eggs, butter, olive oil). That's probably a good idea whether or not you're taking supps.

[chrono]

Still, fiber is healthy and should not be neglected. Your body is built to obtain macro- and micro-nutrients from food, not from supplements. Keep that in mind. What might speed absorption from supplements might also compromise your ability to get nutrition from food, the "old-fashioned" way.

Certainly, changing your diet only to aid in supplement absorption is probably a sign that you need to reassess priorities

I think taking fat-solubles with breakfast or lunch is a pretty good idea. Though another question that arises (particularly relevant to those who are on lower-fat diets) is how much fat is necessary/beneficial to aid in absorption? Personally I eat a very light breakfast, but still might be the best time of day to take certain things. Not that big a concern, though, really.

Edited by chrono, 24 April 2010 - 06:04 PM.

[LabRat84]

Still, fiber is healthy and should not be neglected. Your body is built to obtain macro- and micro-nutrients from food, not from supplements. Keep that in mind. What might speed absorption from supplements might also compromise your ability to get nutrition from food, the "old-fashioned" way.

Certainly, changing your diet only to aid in supplement absorption is probably a sign that you need to reassess priorities

I think taking fat-solubles with breakfast or lunch is a pretty good idea. Though another question that arises (particularly relevant to those who are on lower-fat diets) is how much fat is necessary/beneficial to aid in absorption? Personally I eat a very light breakfast, but still might be the best time of day to take certain things. Not that big a concern, though, really.

I'm not sure how much fat you need; probably not much. Fat is absorbed in the small intenstine and you want some other food there the help slow down the passage of fat. (I.e., don't just down a tablespoon of olive oil.) The presence of fat in the small intenstine adds to the feeling of satiety too.

[chrono]

I'm not sure how much fat you need; probably not much. Fat is absorbed in the small intenstine and you want some other food there the help slow down the passage of fat. (I.e., don't just down a tablespoon of olive oil.) The presence of fat in the small intenstine adds to the feeling of satiety too.

I was rather hoping that wasn't the best method of administration I was reading around a little about aniracetam tonight because I just ordered a tub, and saw several recommendations of dissolving it in olive oil to drink it. But what you say definitely makes sense.

Will have to come up with a few small "snacks" that won't ruin my dinner, in case I feel like taking this away from meals.

Edited by chrono, 26 April 2010 - 09:38 AM.

[LabRat84]

I'm not sure how much fat you need; probably not much. Fat is absorbed in the small intenstine and you want some other food there the help slow down the passage of fat. (I.e., don't just down a tablespoon of olive oil.) The presence of fat in the small intenstine adds to the feeling of satiety too.

I was rather hoping that wasn't the best method of administration I was reading around a little about aniracetam tonight because I just ordered a tub, and saw several recommendations of dissolving it in olive oil to drink it. But what you say definitely makes sense.

Will have to come up with a few small "snacks" that won't ruin my dinner, in case I feel like taking this away from meals.

Perhaps dissolve it in olive oil to drink after eating something light. I'm not sure how readily plain fat gets digested. Liquid alone doesn't make your stomach churn. I don't know too much about digestive endocrinology, I'm not sure you'll get the full action of the lipases without solid food. I could be wrong, though - the fat and nutrients in milk are absorbed when you drink it.

[tastyratz]

just how "full" or "empty" are we talking here? I always wondered this.

I bodybuild and tend to eat many small meals through the day instead of full size meals (except usually a good sized dinner)

In the morning I have a banana on the way to work, then oatmeal/wheat thins/etc. at some point while at work.

Is it generally accepted that you should be avoiding any and all foods around when you take water solubles? or is there little concern at times other than a full sized meal or meal of specific types?

[chrono]

just how "full" or "empty" are we talking here? I always wondered this.

Is it generally accepted that you should be avoiding any and all foods around when you take water solubles? or is there little concern at times other than a full sized meal or meal of specific types?

All those questions are pretty much answered in the other responses. Amino acids are best on a very empty stomach. I try to take water solubles an hour away from a meal if I can. If you're dividing your meals up further, it's not a big deal.

A lot of this has to do with peak plasma levels, too. Some things you want the absorption to be concentrated so you feel it as quickly/fully as possible (mental effects). For other supplements, it doesn't matter if you have some food in your stomach and the effects are a little more diffuse.

[ampa]

Will a high-fiber meal affect the absorption of fats or fat-soluble vitamins?

For example, would there be any effect on absorption of fish oil or vitamins E,D, or K if they are taken with something like oatmeal?

Or are there any supplements which specifically should not be taken with a high-fiber meal?

[ajnast4r]

yes, but it will vary depending on the type of fiber, the nutrient & the types of fat consumed. i dont think its anything to be too worried about, but i generally take my fat soluble supplements away from any higher fiber meals or fiber supplements.


http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6096987

Influence of dietary fiber (konjac mannan) on absorption of vitamin B12 and vitamin E.

Doi K, Matsuura M, Kawara A, Tanaka T, Baba S.
Abstract

The subjects of this study were six normal and five maturity onset diabetics. On the first day of the study, subjects were given a control test meal, prepared by adding vitamin B12 3000r (mecobalamin) and vitamin E 500 mg (tocopherol acetate), after a 12-hr overnight fast. Then, on the second day in the case of the normal subjects, and on the seventh day in the case of the diabetic subjects, the subjects received a second test meal with 3.9 g konjac mannan (glucomannan). Venous blood samples were taken immediately before the test meal and again after 1, 3, 5, 8, 12 and 24 hr for analysis of vitamins. The absorption rate of vitamin E into the intestine was reduced when konjac mannan was added to the test meals, but that of vitamin B12 was not reduced in normal or diabetic subjects. It is suggested that konjac mannan reduces fat-soluble vitamin absorption removing bile acids, but does not reduce fat-insoluble vitamin absorption in the intestine.

http://jn.nutrition....ull/129/12/2170

Dietary fiber may be partly responsible for the lower bioavailability of carotenoids from food than from purified supplements. Due to the lack of detailed information available, we investigated the effects of different kinds of dietary fiber on the absorption of carotenoids and {alpha}-tocopherol. Six healthy young women received an antioxidant mixture consisting of ß-carotene, lycopene, lutein, canthaxanthin and {alpha}-tocopherol together with a standard meal. The meal did not contain additional dietary fiber or was enriched with pectin, guar, alginate, cellulose or wheat bran (0.15 g · kg body weight-1). The increases in plasma carotenoid and {alpha}-tocopherol concentrations were followed over 24 h, and the areas-under-curves (AUC24h) were calculated. The mean AUC24h of ß-carotene was significantly (P < 0.05) reduced by the water-soluble fibers pectin, guar and alginate with a mean decrease of 33–43%. All tested fibers significantly reduced the AUC24h of lycopene and lutein by 40–74% (P < 0.05). The dietary fiber effect on the AUC24h of canthaxanthin was almost significant (P = 0.059) and there was no effect on the AUC24h of {alpha}-tocopherol. We conclude that the bioavailability of ß-carotene, lycopene and lutein given within a mixed supplement is markedly reduced by different kinds of dietary fiber.

google will turn up much more if youre interested.

Edited by ajnast4r, 06 November 2010 - 07:18 PM.

[thermal]

I recently came across enteric-coated capsules (capsules that release their content when in the small intestines) and was wondering if this made the matter of consuming supplements on either a full or empty stomach irrelevant?

This would obviously be great, as it would simplify the consumption of supplements and nootropics while also maximizing their absorption.

I am still new to this area, however, so any and all advice is appreciated.

[skypower]

Hello there,

I have a question and I think many people do have it or they just haven't thought about it much.

Water soluble drugs need to be put in a glass of water so they dissolve, and then you are ready to drink it.

What's the procedure with fat soluble drugs? Do I have to eat food (maybe food high in fat?) and then just take them? Or taking the drug with, let's say, fish oil is an ok method? The reason I am asking is because my diet is based on intermittent fasting, I eat my first meal of the day at 4pm usually, and 2 more every 3 hours, so when I wake up I just can't eat.

[chrono]

Water soluble drugs need to be put in a glass of water so they dissolve, and then you are ready to drink it.

What's the procedure with fat soluble drugs? Do I have to eat food (maybe food high in fat?) and then just take them? Or taking the drug with, let's say, fish oil is an ok method? The reason I am asking is because my diet is based on intermittent fasting, I eat my first meal of the day at 4pm usually, and 2 more every 3 hours, so when I wake up I just can't eat.

Well, water soluble drugs don't need to be dissolved in water to work. What it means is that they don't need to be taken with fatty foods to get the best bioavailability. They may still be taken with foods, but doing so will probably decrease the peak plasma concentration (i.e. will produce a longer effect that isn't quite as strong). This may be relevant when the desired effect depends strongly on reaching a certain dose, or quick onset is desirable.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, you could take fat solubles with a little olive oil. Again, doesn't have to be dissolved, but someone once mentioned that pre-dissolving can increase absorption efficiency. It's tough to say if fish oil would provide enough fat to get the optimum absorption. It probably depends on how much fish oil you take, and the characteristics of the drugs in question.

And the water vs. fat soluble thing is kind of an oversimplification in the first place. Most drugs will be soluble in lipids to some degree, at various pH/ionization states/etc. It's just a good rule of thumb for some things.

Edited by chrono, 23 November 2011 - 11:24 PM.

[Luminosity]

I would take each thing as directed unless I knew different.

[Quinn Dawson]

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6096987

Influence of dietary fiber (konjac mannan) on absorption of vitamin B12 and vitamin E.

Doi K, Matsuura M, Kawara A, Tanaka T, Baba S.
Abstract

The subjects of this study were six normal and five maturity onset diabetics. On the first day of the study, subjects were given a control test meal, prepared by adding vitamin B12 3000r (mecobalamin) and vitamin E 500 mg (tocopherol acetate), after a 12-hr overnight fast. Then, on the second day in the case of the normal subjects, and on the seventh day in the case of the diabetic subjects, the subjects received a second test meal with 3.9 g konjac mannan (glucomannan). Venous blood samples were taken immediately before the test meal and again after 1, 3, 5, 8, 12 and 24 hr for analysis of vitamins. The absorption rate of vitamin E into the intestine was reduced when konjac mannan was added to the test meals, but that of vitamin B12 was not reduced in normal or diabetic subjects. It is suggested that konjac mannan reduces fat-soluble vitamin absorption removing bile acids, but does not reduce fat-insoluble vitamin absorption in the intestine.

google will turn up much more if youre interested.

I wouldn't say that the effects of konjac mannan (particularly used for weightloss and the primary ingredient of PGX) would be necessarily representative of other fibers, its unique, no?

[optic]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, you could take fat solubles with a little olive oil. Again, doesn't have to be dissolved, but someone once mentioned that pre-dissolving can increase absorption efficiency. It's tough to say if fish oil would provide enough fat to get the optimum absorption. It probably depends on how much fish oil you take, and the characteristics of the drugs in question.

Olive oil? Shouldn't drinking a glass of fat milk with fat soluble drugs do the trick?

[PsychoAndroid]

One question which I think has not been answered above:

Is it ok if I take all my supplements (not matter if water/lipid soluble) in the morning on an empty stomach with much water? This will certainly cause the water-soluble ones to get dissolved, pass the stomach and get absorbed quickly. After ~10minutes I eat breakfast which should take care of the remaining lipid-soluble components left in the stomach right? Could they get destroyed if they remain in the stomach for too long (i.e. if I wait too long with the breakfast and therefore don't dissolve them)?