64 replies to this topic

[GoodFellas]

I need an update on how to treat insomnia. Right now I'm using Melatonin and Atarax (sometimes). However, are there any medication/supplment that is safer and better out there?

I've tried supplements like magnesium, zinc, taurine etc, but it doesn't really work for me.

Edited by GoodFellas, 23 April 2010 - 04:06 AM.

[Logan]

I don't know about safe, but gabapentin and pregabalin have been known to enhance sleep.

[Alex Libman]

In my own life I've come to the conclusion that insomnia isn't really a problem. The amount of time your body wants to stay awake or asleep will vary on a number of factors, including diet, exercise, mental workload, emotional stress, etc - there's no rule that they must be constant from day to day. So I work whenever I feel like working, and I sleep whenever I feel like sleeping - regardless of which side of this minuscule planet is facing its sun.

The old 9-to-5 routine is a relic of a world where most people worked in the fields and artificial lighting was too expensive. There may have been other reasons why that routine lasted through the 20th century, but those reasons are gradually diminishing as outdoor lighting becomes cheaper, more people start to communicate over the Internet so there's no reason for everyone to be in the office at the same time, people start communicating and traveling all over the world, etc. Having all people go to sleep and wake up around the same time is actually quite stupid if you think about it - roads, stores, and other infrastructure are overcrowded on some hours and virtually empty on others, increasing their overhead costs substantially.

As ever-more humans leave the earth entirely for cheaper living in space, a new routine organized around 8 hour shifts is likely to develop, where people work, sleep, or do other things every 3rd shift. Most people will follow those shifts, and some will just listen to what their body is telling them - it's all a matter of habit. Polyphasic sleep will probably become more popular as well.

Edited by Alex Libman, 23 April 2010 - 09:01 AM.

[tunt01]

what kind of insomnia is it? sleep maintenance insomnia (waking up after 3-5 hrs) or primary onset insomnia (can't fall asleep at all) ?

[chrono]

Have you tried taurine (or magnesium taurate)? Even ~1g amounts every night really help me feel tired at the "right" time to stay in tune with everyone else.

EDIT: yes, you have. Bacopa is another that comes to mind, the fatigue is usually seen as a side effect when going for memory enhancement, but if taken at night it might help you remain asleep better.

Edited by chrono, 23 April 2010 - 09:08 PM.

[GoodFellas]

what kind of insomnia is it? sleep maintenance insomnia (waking up after 3-5 hrs) or primary onset insomnia (can't fall asleep at all) ?

It's mostly sleep maintenance insomnia.

[tunt01]

It's mostly sleep maintenance insomnia.

I have a similar issue. It tends to happen to people as they get older. I think some of it is glucose related, where you wake up because your body wants food. I'm not sure what the answer is. I tend to do better when I've worked out really hard, not eaten a dinner with any grains and cut off caffeine after 2-3 PM. I also turn down all my lights after 7-8 PM, and simulate the sun/light cycle. But it's not a magic fix by any means. It helps at the margin. Some sites recommend B12 in the AM. I dont know if you take B12.

If I figure something out, I'll drop a post. It's on my radar though. I saw one drug (not ambien) that supposedly could treat it.. you might want to search around.

[VampIyer]

It's very difficult for me to get any sleep without a NorEpinephrine inhibitor (I'm on Clonidine).

Even with that... I'm getting maybe 3-5 hours per night... still much better than before.

At night I take:

- magnesium aspartate (thinking about switching to taurinate or glycinate), glycine, lithium (orotate), zinc glycinate, zinc orotate, folate (methyl), DMG, sometimes SAM-E, sometimes tryptophan or 5-htp... + about 750mcg of sublingual (supposedly time-released) melatonin
- used to take bacopa and ashwagandha, but something was causing increased fatigue persisting into the day. I thought it was the bacopa, but I've eliminated both for now.

Edited by VampIyer, 24 April 2010 - 08:46 PM.

[chrono]

magnesium aspartate (thinking about switching to taurinate or glycinate)

Good idea, the aspartate has some toxic effects. Taurate is great for sleep enhancement (I take it), but the malate is significantly cheaper than the glycinate (if you don't want the glycine, that is).

used to take bacopa and ashwagandha, but something was causing increased fatigue persisting into the day. I thought it was the bacopa, but I've eliminated both for now.

Bacopa! It did this to me, made me groggy well into the next morning (with some brain fog in addition to fatigue), and the same at night if I took it in the morning. Though some have said that these effects disappear with a different brand, I'm forced to wonder if the molecules of interest do, as well.

[GoodFellas]

Bumping this one a bit;D

[kafkastoaster]

While it's true that there are natural genetic variations (with early birds actually seeming to be mutants according to a few studies last year) and an incredibly small subset needing only three hours beyond the normal deviation

this

this

and recently this

have been of particular worry to me as an insomniac. Since childhood beset with the inability to fall asleep I have never taken any pills or regular medication fearing surprise chemical recombinance or brain alteration (although if rapamycin or reservatol turn out to be highly beneficial this overall policy might change), and have recently met with some success practicing introspective meditation and not eating or drinking anything for 6-8 hours before bed. Also I've noticed that sleeping in a room with other sleeping people seems to help, although for the anti-social this is not a practicable solution in the medium or long term. The book "Insomniac" by Gayle Greene has many interesting tips that you might find useful, it seems as though good sleep and extended lifespan may go hand in hand.

[Guacamolium]

what kind of insomnia is it? sleep maintenance insomnia (waking up after 3-5 hrs) or primary onset insomnia (can't fall asleep at all) ?

It's mostly sleep maintenance insomnia.

I'd say give phenibut and niacin a try, then, from my own personal experience. You might have to go do a sleep study, and they figure out all the problems from there.

Do you take alcohol?

Edited by somethingtoxic, 11 May 2010 - 04:13 AM.

[Rational Madman]

I need an update on how to treat insomnia. Right now I'm using Melatonin and Atarax (sometimes). However, are there any medication/supplment that is safer and better out there?

I've tried supplements like magnesium, zinc, taurine etc, but it doesn't really work for me.

Shortly before attempting to sleep, I've found that a very small amount of grape based---and thus, melatonin rich--- alcohol with concurrent SSRI use to be the most effective and tolerable option. Other more tolerable options include Rozerem, Remeron, and Trazadone, but their effects are unlikely to last, and are more appropriate for infrequent---rather than chronic insomnia--- bouts with insomnia. For refractory cases, prescription cannabis has been successfully used, but the statutes of your state probably do not allow exceptions for legal procurement. Besides a few other investigational choices, I'm afraid to say that the unpalatable mainstays of treatment remain the most effective.

Edited by Rol82, 12 May 2010 - 03:58 AM.

[tlm884]

I take 1.5 grams of Tryptophan and 300mg of Gabapentin everynight. Works like a charm

[OneScrewLoose]

what kind of insomnia is it? sleep maintenance insomnia (waking up after 3-5 hrs) or primary onset insomnia (can't fall asleep at all) ?

It's mostly sleep maintenance insomnia.

I'd say give phenibut and niacin a try, then, from my own personal experience. You might have to go do a sleep study, and they figure out all the problems from there.

Do you take alcohol?

Please avoid Phenibut. Anything more than occasional use can cause extreme addiction.

[e Volution]

This is also on my radar (not that that means much) as I suffer from primary onset insomnia, but very busy so haven't a real good chance to research/experiment yet. I believe my issue stems from something to do with a circadian rhythm disorder, Delayed sleep-phase syndrome or something similar. When I have nothing to be up for in the morning, I typically fall into a 4am to midday sleeping pattern. Now I always though subjectively this was just me being a nerd, staying up late on the net into the wee hours of the night, that was until I looked up DSPS in wikipedia and in the opening paragraph read "If, however, they are allowed to follow their own schedules, e.g. sleeping from 4 a.m. to noon, they sleep soundly, awaken spontaneously, and do not experience excessive daytime sleepiness.". Just a coincidence?

I have had some subjective success with 3-5g Glycine before bed, not in helping to get to sleep quicker but just feeling a bit better the next morning despite 5-6 hours sleep (I do best on 8-9). However I switched a couple other variables at the same time, and the improvement is well within the range of the Placebo effect.

I have a question for you more knowledgeable individuals: could mixing a few of these random supplements/amino acids for sleep possibly interfere with each other? For example would there be any problem taking before bed .5-1.5g Taurine + .5-1.5g of Tryptophan + 3-4g Glycine + 200-400mg Magnesium Citrate? Also are the effects negated by still possibly having some food in your stomach?

Thanks

P.S. A short-term (but obviously not sustainable) option I have had guaranteed success with is 5-10mg Valium and 1-2 glasses of red wine

[Chaos Theory]

Ashwagandha and passion flower both work for me. I never had any luck with glycine or taurine.

Phenibut also works but at that point you might as well be using prescription benzos.

[GoodFellas]

Ashwagandha and passion flower both work for me. I never had any luck with glycine or taurine.

Phenibut also works but at that point you might as well be using prescription benzos.

I've never heard about passion flower before.

Has anyone else had good experiences with it?

[thevaughny]

what kind of insomnia is it? sleep maintenance insomnia (waking up after 3-5 hrs) or primary onset insomnia (can't fall asleep at all) ?

It's mostly sleep maintenance insomnia.

I'd say give phenibut and niacin a try, then, from my own personal experience. You might have to go do a sleep study, and they figure out all the problems from there.

Do you take alcohol?

What form of niacin?

[GoodFellas]

Ashwagandha and passion flower both work for me. I never had any luck with glycine or taurine.

Phenibut also works but at that point you might as well be using prescription benzos.

I've never heard about passion flower before.

Has anyone else had good experiences with it?

Any thoughts about this?

[Jackson Vile]

It's very difficult for me to get any sleep without a NorEpinephrine inhibitor (I'm on Clonidine).

Even with that... I'm getting maybe 3-5 hours per night... still much better than before.

At night I take:

- magnesium aspartate (thinking about switching to taurinate or glycinate), glycine, lithium (orotate), zinc glycinate, zinc orotate, folate (methyl), DMG, sometimes SAM-E, sometimes tryptophan or 5-htp... + about 750mcg of sublingual (supposedly time-released) melatonin
- used to take bacopa and ashwagandha, but something was causing increased fatigue persisting into the day. I thought it was the bacopa, but I've eliminated both for now.

I used to have extreme insomnia. No one should be taking aspartate anything. I would recomend Mag. glycinate and take taurine in the morning. Also consider that the methylated folate, DMG, SAMe, and 5-htp, and tryptophan could be adding to the problem. Futher more, you have to be careful with melatonin, to your average person it does not mess up their sleeping patterns, however for some with consistant sleeping problems it very well could make the problem worse.

Take a look for a study, it shows how the brain can change so that seratonin acts more like a stimulant. Form me tryptophan is a stimulant. Finally I will add that if you cortisol levels are low that will make you feel like crap and very tired, this can be caused from exhaustion of the adrenal gland and use of an anti-cortisol supp. such as ashwagandha.

Instead you actually want to sensatize your body to cortisol and reduce the burden on the adrenal gland to produce cortisol. The later would require a lifestyle change, while the former can be accomplished by useing CLA in the morning hours only.

And to further optimize cotisol and tryptophan metabolites such as melatonin and etc. I high suggest fish oil, but it has to be taken right before bed. Everyone takes their fish oil incorrectly, it should always be taken before bed.

As for lifestyle; you should consider sleeping in a 100% no light enviroment, you must not be expose to light at any time during the time you want to sleep, then upon waking you need direct exposure (as much as reasonably possible) right upon waking. Next you need to be in bed at 9:00pm. Why? When you stay up, your cortisol levels shoot straight through the roof! And bad food only add to the problem, no night eating! Insulin and sleep = no good sleep and furture sleeping problems.

It took me a good 8yrs of reading studying testing to finally get this all together. What is the result? I sleep when and where I want! It is not a fast fix, it will take a lot of time to undo all that damage to your body.

[MoodyBlue]

Life Extension's Tryptopure is a formula which helps more of the trytophan to get into the brain where it is needed to make serotonin. Hyposomnolent people diagnosed with major depression are found to have very low levels of serotonin. It is needed for sleep. Also natural GABA (not synthetic) might help. See here:

[Rogues]

Hmm, I find that fish oil before bed actually keeps me awake.

[GoodFellas]

Life Extension's Tryptopure is a formula which helps more of the trytophan to get into the brain where it is needed to make serotonin. Hyposomnolent people diagnosed with major depression are found to have very low levels of serotonin. It is needed for sleep. Also natural GABA (not synthetic) might help. See here:

What's the side effects from Tryptopure?

[Rational Madman]

Life Extension's Tryptopure is a formula which helps more of the trytophan to get into the brain where it is needed to make serotonin. Hyposomnolent people diagnosed with major depression are found to have very low levels of serotonin. It is needed for sleep. Also natural GABA (not synthetic) might help. See here:

What's the side effects from Tryptopure?

The side effects are similar to those of serotonergic drugs. In the absence of Carbidopa, though, much of converted serotonin will not pass the blood brain barrier, which increases your risk of heart valve complications. But, I'm not familiar with any data about the incididence of this complication associated with the use of tryptophan. And, if your insomnia has been unresponsive to multiple therapies, its doubtful that tryptophan will succeed where others have failed. So, again, you're better off resorting to more mainstream options to correct your circadian rhythym, and using alternative options like tryptophan as a form of maintenance therapy.

[outsider]

Ashwagandha and passion flower both work for me. I never had any luck with glycine or taurine.

Phenibut also works but at that point you might as well be using prescription benzos.

I've never heard about passion flower before.

Has anyone else had good experiences with it?

Any thoughts about this?

Passion flower and you can add skull cap are well known herb sedatives.

[shaggy]

Passion flower and you can add skull cap are well known herb sedatives.

What dosages would you recommend for these two supplements?

Thanks!

Edited by chrono, 30 September 2010 - 10:21 AM.

[xontek]

Here's a cure for insomnia:

Use the bed only for two things. Sex or sleep. Do not read in bed, do not watch tv in bed. Do not sit on your bed. By associating your bed with sleep, when you hit the bed, you will fall asleep faster.

[xontek]

delete

Edited by xontek, 21 May 2010 - 10:01 PM.

[GoodFellas]

What would be the best supplements to combine with melatonin?