208 replies to this topic

[Spectre]

I went back to the doctor and he keeps trying to get me on this crap called tegretol (an anti-epileptic drug I can't believe this, I was misdiagnosed with manic depression when I was 12 years old by a psychiatrist and the doctor I'm seeing now is adamant on believing that I am in fact bi polar..this is ridiculous, he wants me to stop taking Deprenyl, ginkgo biloba, and all the other supplements and nootropics I'm on (he hasn't even heard of piracetam btw).

Now he wants me to take the tegretol 200mg 2x day) and remeron (mirtazepine). I have no problem with the remeron since I have depression and insomnia but I have tried to emphasize to my doctor that I absolutely do NOT want to take tegretol due to the negative effects on the brain and how it's linked with memory loss, decreased thinking abilities, and cell apoptosis (not to mention the numerous adverse physiological effects). I'm extremely terrified that taking tegretol may cause some neurological damage to my brain that may not be recoverable..he told me to take both medications and to not see him until April (wtf?).

I don't know what to do at this point..they're making me get bloodwork done in a couple weeks for the tegretol so if I don't take it they will know about it and may cease to work with me any longer (it's at a local clinic here in town). I am extremely disappointed with my doctors lack of understanding to hear me out and disregarding everything I say about nootropics. I stopped the deprenyl last Wednesday and won't take tegretol until 2 weeks from that date..but I don't look forward to taking it at all. What would you guys do in my situation? Am I being paranoid? Or are my concerns legitimate? Thanks.

[tritium]

I don't know what country you live in, but where I live you have the right to a personal decision on what health-care you receive. I would never take any medication if it went against my beliefs, unless it was required to sustain life. I would find a different doctor, if possible.

[Ketaminous]

Hey Spectre, yeah I hear you and feel your pain regarding mis-diagnosis and the difficulties of working with closed-minded docs. I really struggled just to get basic health-care and information on my gluten intolerance because I was using drugs fairly heavily around that time. Even though I had legitimate concerns about my diet, which turned out to be totally founded since I DID have gluten-intolerance/celiac disease. But I was basically treated like some paranoid stoner for months, and now years later still carry the stigma with me every-time I go into the doctor's office or emergency room. But having been a fairly paranoid person for a while, I can say that you definitely are not being paranoid and your desire to keep control over what goes in your body is a very sane and normal response.

Firstly, I can say that you do have an absolute right to deny any medication or treatment, and if you wanted to just take the remeron that should be acceptable. If you feel pressure to take a med that you don't want to because you have legitimate reasons, than that's a good sign that your doc might just not be someone you can work with if they're insisting on such a "top/down" style of relating to you. Also, the bloodwork that is normally done for anti-epileptics (I myself was on valproate years ago) is usually a simple liver panel to see if you are having any bad reactions. Tests for actual blood levels are expensive and usually reserved for people on lithium, where high levels QUICKLY become toxic. So liver enzymes within normal = all clear, most of the time. Also from now until April is a looong time and your doc should be accessible in case of adverse effects or regulating your dosages, which is very common when starting on new meds. I would say that's a pretty worrying sign right there, so tread carefully with this guy/girl.

Lastly, and perhaps most harshly... If you've had some success with your current regimen, than you should probably question whether or not it's worth it to get on a new regimen whose results you might not feel for months. Wheras who knows, if you keep at your current one you could be feeling fantastic by than. Like I said before, I've dealt with similar situations and trying to please doctors has never worked out well for me. They have a certain reductionist view of the world which is nearly impossible to penetrate no matter how reasoned or educated you are. It doesn't matter if you haven't felt anything more than mild depression or insomnia in the past decade, or that your bi-polar tendencies were more caused by a particular life situation or setting. You have been diagnostically branded in their eyes, they see it somewhat like this: You can't be trusted with anything that changes neuro-chemicals because by definition you are neuro-chemically imbalanced. The only thing you are permitted to be taking is something that is vetted and controlled, something "safe." Sounds paranoid but it's paranoia born of experience, as soon as you start thinking "outside the drug store" clinic-style medicine doesn't really have much to offer... Other than a nearly random treadmill of prescriptions, which may or may not help your very specific and complex issue.

I hope my long and rambling, and possibly paranoid post helps you in some way. I just don't want to see you fall into the trap of endless doctors and unhelpful councilors I fell into from 2009-2010, and am only recently clawing my way out of. You've made good strides since I last posted in this thread, and I think you're very, very close to honing in on your issue, a couple months setback isn't something you can get back. Since I last posted I tried St. John's Wort for depression but didn't find it exceptionally helpful, as well as 5-HTP and ECGC which is supposed to help the 5-HTP penetrate the blood-brain-barrier. I'm still just taking cal/mag, multi-vitamin, and fish oil on top of a gluten-free diet and feel great mentally. Recently, like today for instance, I've been re-introducing L-Huperazine considering I still have a sizable stash left, and am finding it very interesting yet again. Even 1-2 days a week I feel more on point, and less prone to obsessive worrying or dwelling on shit outside of my control. But the negative effects from all the dissociatives I've taken (1 yr+ for PCP, 6 months+ for ket) are still present daily, just more and more "background noise" every day. All I can say is keep reading, thinking, researching, and applying mental effort and your problems will fade with time. Playing music and reconnecting with friends always helps, learn to be "in the moment" and the deja-vu and time lag will catch up some day

[Ketaminous]

OK reading back that post it does seem pretty harsh, but I said alot of things I felt needed to be said. I forgot that you mentioned the epilepsy connection to your deja-vu symptoms. In conjunction with the remeron, an anti-epileptic could actually be a good treatment for you, but there are safer anti-epileptics for someone who's concerned about possible cognitive effects. Plus if I've read your post correctly your doc is giving you the anti-epileptics for BP and not the deja-vu, which is a common response from most doctors, focusing on a perceived mental disorder over other things. If you can't bargain with your doc about the meds, or have him/her understand the reasons you are taking them, than be very careful. That was all I was trying to say but it turned into an increasingly tangential rant about my current views of medical system. Been taking a class on Foucault's "Birth of the Clinic" on the topic of Ethics in the Life Sciences and it's seeping into my brain in weird ways, eek!

I mean nobody knows what's going on in your head but you, you could be experiencing some very alarming symptoms none of us can imagine. But there's a multiplicity of ways to deal with it, in this thread and in life, so don't get bogged down in one so called professional's interpretation of your life. PeaCe and lucK man

[onetimevisit]

Good post K,
This is actaully very simple. Policy is that cognitive enhancement for the 'PUBLIC' is not acceptable. Some docs may help some individuals, but only the smart ones, who charge the most. Also they would much preffer your presentment to match the indication. They do face liabilities

You dont need to make the world right, its not fair, so what, i promise there is nothing you can do about it.

[OneScrewLoose]

Bump..

Does anyone know if Wellbutrin, Deprenyl, or the combination of the two is linked with tardive dyskinesia? I've been experiencing some strange neck spasms and feel forced to constantly move/stretch it at times..I'm not sure which drug it's attributed to but I'm very concerned about this.

Wellbutrin can cause this. It gave me tics.

[Ketaminous]

Good post K,
This is actaully very simple. Policy is that cognitive enhancement for the 'PUBLIC' is not acceptable. Some docs may help some individuals, but only the smart ones, who charge the most. Also they would much preffer your presentment to match the indication. They do face liabilities

You dont need to make the world right, its not fair, so what, i promise there is nothing you can do about it.

Yeah that's a good summary of things, the liability issue sortof forces their hand especially when you've been diagnosed with a mental disorder. It certainly doesn't seem fair, but makes sense when you consider the commonly accepted definition of sanity as a conformation to the norm. It really doesn't make any sense to want to exceed the norm, which is what we're all about here! So right there you have a conflict, which forces you back into the role of a "patient" who needs the guidance of a doctor to bring you back to the norm.

Basically I've grown to just use doctors for minimal health care services, making sure I'm physically in order, and letting my mind decide what brain food is good for it. But there are limitations to it, I don't take any pharmaceuticals for instance, which is their area of expertise. I'm very interested in hydergine but I'm skittish because it's a step up from amino acids and herbal extracts... Actually, have you considered any ergoloids?

[onetimevisit]

Off label prescription would open liability claims against the Doc just through defective risk quantification by Pharam. Hard case but

It certainly doesn't seem fair, but makes sense when you consider the commonly accepted definition of sanity as a conformation to the norm. It really doesn't make any sense to want to exceed the norm, which is what we're all about here! So right there you have a conflict, which forces you back into the role of a "patient" who needs the guidance of a doctor to bring you back to the norm.

Nice story, but wrong. reanaylise
"Policy is that cognitive enhancement for the 'PUBLIC' is not acceptable"+

[Spectre]

Update:

I start the tegretol tomorrow, I'm definitely not excited..pray that it won't cause me any brain damage and will hopefully help me if anything..anyway, an update on my self-prescribed therapy.

I started taking Sulbutiamine lately, and I have to say, it's absolutely awesome!! I think this is what will truly help my brain heal and bring me back in reality (not that I'm suffering from de-realization or anything)..it's been improving my memory and I think it's fixing the disrupted memory encoding that's been wired into my brain..I'm not really experiencing any sense of deja vu, at least from what I notice..I actually feel a lot better and have more energy, feel more positive, and all around just seen improvement..I think the mirtazepine is helping as well, I've definitely seen an improvement in my sleeping patterns. Here's my current supplement regimen:

AM:
- 1g Piracetam
- 1200mg Soy Lecithin
- 1g Vitamin C
- 50mg Zinc
- 200mg Sulbutiamine
- 3g Fish Oil

PM:
- 450mg Ashwagandha root extract
- 15mg Mirtazepine

Following this regimen has definitely been giving me positive results..unfortunately I'm not taking my Deprenyl anymore since it will directly interfere with the Tegretol that I'm starting tomorrow..I will give this new medication a 2 week window to see how it is affecting me, and if I see positive results, I will continue to do as he advises and take the medication..if I have a bad reaction to the medicine, I will notify my doctor and stop taking Tegretol with or without his approval. I started taking the Ashwagandha the same day I incorporated Sulbutiamine, so it's possible that my memory is being improved by just the Ashwagandha, or the combination of the two (both supplements have studies backed that claim they improve memory). I want to take the Deprenyl again as it made me feel good, as well as Ginkgo Biloba (I absolutely love that herb, it improves my overall thinking capabilities a lot and makes me super horny, lol). Unfortunately for me, Tegretol interferes with Ginkgo as well..so I have no choice but to stop it.

This regimen overall has made me feel a lot better, and I don't have any mood swings whatsoever (I wish I could convince my doctor that I am in fact NOT bi polar). If I stop taking the Tegretol, then I will re-incorporate 5mg Deprenyl, 120mg Ginkgo, and whenever I have the money, add in 1g/day of ALCAR as well. I hope my experience can inform and help other people, I'm excited to see how this turns out for myself!

[Spectre]

Update..this is my first day on Tegretol, I absolutely hate it..the only effects I notice it are extreme lethargy and a significant loss of concentration, I've felt tired all day and just want to sleep..I've actually seen a worsening of my mood today, I feel a blunting of my happiness and a heightened sense of agitation..I will give it a little bit of time and see how I adjust, but I'm inclined to believe that this will in fact do nothing good for me. I don't know what I should say to my doctor the next time I see him..I wish he was more open-minded and educated about nootropics. Any advice would be helpful..(if I "don't comply" with my doctor, they will cease to work with me any more, and I won't be able to get the Remeron..I feel stuck right now). Thanks.

[Delta Gamma]

Bump...

How would psilocybin temporarily cure symptoms of TLE?

I'd be careful, a reduction in 5ht1a receptors is found in rats used to model epilepsy. If you caused 5ht1a downregulation via psilocin it could make your condition worse assuming it is some sort of rebound NMDA mediated epilepsy thing.

However, some literature shows that the use of SSRI's can have anticonvulsant effect in rats as well. It appears that the 5ht1a receptor and NMDA receptor produce antagonistic effects as far as epilepsy goes in rats. Interestingly, in humans a increase in 5ht synthesis is seen in areas effected with epilepsy though it may be linked to increased kynurenic acid which has been shown to reduce seizures. It may be a part of some sort of compensatory mechanism as the normal serotonin actions on 5ht1a are reduced. It also appears that at least in juvenile myoclonic epilepsy that reduced 5ht1a binding is present in several brain regions. As for the regulation of 5ht1a receptor expression I can't find anything definitive, though if you tried mushrooms before with this condition I don't see any obvious route where it could be negative aside from potential downregulation but that's dubious.

Random fact: SAM-E is known to effect the expression of 5ht1a in rats.

Maybe 5htp could help as it would boost both the endogenous ligand of the 5ht1a receptor and kynurenic acid levels. Kynurenic acid is known to also be a NDMA antagonist.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC321211/
http://www.springerl...50752h7272j884/
http://www.springerl...50752h7272j884/
http://www.sciencedi...16&searchtype=a
http://archneur.ama-...stract/62/6/946
http://en.wikipedia..../Kynurenic_acid
http://www.jneurosci...tract/10/9/2965

/rant on possible involvement of the 5ht system.

Bump..

Is anyone aware of herbs or medicines/drugs that help restore proper memory consolidation and encoding in the brain? That's what my real problem is. I've narrowed down the cause of the disrupted memory consolidation to 3 possible reasons.

1. Kappa Opioid receptor agonism (which is attributed to both dextromethorphan and salvinorin a)
2. Dopamine D2 receptor agonism
3. NMDA receptor disruption

There could also be some involvement of sigma agonism/antagonism but seeing as we know next to nothing on it, I'll ignore it.

Kappa opioid receptor (KOR) agonism can also be caused by DXM, so I'm going to assume that DXM caused all your problems for simplicity's sake. KOR agonism is also known to downregulate D2 receptors. I don't want to get into another rant about it, but here's a great thread on KOR and DA effects, here's another good thread though it isn't as direct on the topic. You can also destroy your DA/ACh ratios via excessive D2 modulation which could partially explain if a cholinesterase inhibitor helps you out.

Also, KOR affects cannabinoid receptors via secondary signalling mechanisms. I could go into further detail but that's where shit gets even more complicated, you could probably write a whole Ph.D thesis on this kind of multisystem interaction.

TL;DR: do you function a little better on a very small dose of DXM (15mg)? If so then its probably NMDA mediated. If 5htp helps then it may be NMDA and serotonin mediated. If both help great, that gives us something to work with, if not then shit gets complicated again. If low dose huperzine A helps it could be due to decrease ACh or just because increased ACh is associated with improved cognition in general.

Hope this wall of information helps.
-DG

[owls]

Spectre... this is all in your head brother. i hate to break it to ya but it's true..

[Spectre]

Bump...

How would psilocybin temporarily cure symptoms of TLE?

I'd be careful, a reduction in 5ht1a receptors is found in rats used to model epilepsy. If you caused 5ht1a downregulation via psilocin it could make your condition worse assuming it is some sort of rebound NMDA mediated epilepsy thing.

However, some literature shows that the use of SSRI's can have anticonvulsant effect in rats as well. It appears that the 5ht1a receptor and NMDA receptor produce antagonistic effects as far as epilepsy goes in rats. Interestingly, in humans a increase in 5ht synthesis is seen in areas effected with epilepsy though it may be linked to increased kynurenic acid which has been shown to reduce seizures. It may be a part of some sort of compensatory mechanism as the normal serotonin actions on 5ht1a are reduced. It also appears that at least in juvenile myoclonic epilepsy that reduced 5ht1a binding is present in several brain regions. As for the regulation of 5ht1a receptor expression I can't find anything definitive, though if you tried mushrooms before with this condition I don't see any obvious route where it could be negative aside from potential downregulation but that's dubious.

Random fact: SAM-E is known to effect the expression of 5ht1a in rats.

Maybe 5htp could help as it would boost both the endogenous ligand of the 5ht1a receptor and kynurenic acid levels. Kynurenic acid is known to also be a NDMA antagonist.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC321211/
http://www.springerl...50752h7272j884/
http://www.springerl...50752h7272j884/
http://www.sciencedi...16&searchtype=a
http://archneur.ama-...stract/62/6/946
http://en.wikipedia..../Kynurenic_acid
http://www.jneurosci...tract/10/9/2965

/rant on possible involvement of the 5ht system.

Bump..

Is anyone aware of herbs or medicines/drugs that help restore proper memory consolidation and encoding in the brain? That's what my real problem is. I've narrowed down the cause of the disrupted memory consolidation to 3 possible reasons.

1. Kappa Opioid receptor agonism (which is attributed to both dextromethorphan and salvinorin a)
2. Dopamine D2 receptor agonism
3. NMDA receptor disruption

There could also be some involvement of sigma agonism/antagonism but seeing as we know next to nothing on it, I'll ignore it.

Kappa opioid receptor (KOR) agonism can also be caused by DXM, so I'm going to assume that DXM caused all your problems for simplicity's sake. KOR agonism is also known to downregulate D2 receptors. I don't want to get into another rant about it, but here's a great thread on KOR and DA effects, here's another good thread though it isn't as direct on the topic. You can also destroy your DA/ACh ratios via excessive D2 modulation which could partially explain if a cholinesterase inhibitor helps you out.

Also, KOR affects cannabinoid receptors via secondary signalling mechanisms. I could go into further detail but that's where shit gets even more complicated, you could probably write a whole Ph.D thesis on this kind of multisystem interaction.

TL;DR: do you function a little better on a very small dose of DXM (15mg)? If so then its probably NMDA mediated. If 5htp helps then it may be NMDA and serotonin mediated. If both help great, that gives us something to work with, if not then shit gets complicated again. If low dose huperzine A helps it could be due to decrease ACh or just because increased ACh is associated with improved cognition in general.

Hope this wall of information helps.
-DG

Thanks for the information. I've actually been seeing tremendous results with my memory issues since incorporating Sulbutiamine and Ashwagandha into my daily nootropic regimen, I have noticed very positive effects from both and I will continue taking them as I'm not experiencing anything negative from their use. I'm also currently taking fish oil, piracetam, soy lecithin, and remeron (mirtazepine, for my insomnia). I think I've finally found a regimen to completely help with my brain dysfunction and I will continue to update my progress. Sulbutiamine has worked wonders for me and I think it's what I've needed all along. My doctor prescribed me to Tegretol and Remeron but I only took the Tegretol for a couple days as it was giving me really strange effects and seemed to actually spring up a deja vu experience, and gave me intense mood swings (which is very strange considering it's a mood stabilizer and anti-epileptic drug)..I have no idea why it affected me in such a way but my case manager said to go ahead and stop taking it..I'm continuing on the remeron though as it's helping me with my depression and sleep issues. In 2 weeks I plan on taking ginkgo biloba again and possibly adding selegiline, but my brain already feels like it's on super sayan mode lol.

[Spectre]

Spectre... this is all in your head brother. i hate to break it to ya but it's true..

I won't argue that the issue is indeed within the confounds of my head, but the memory issues I've been dealing with are definitely not a part of my imagination, if that's what you are implying. I'm more than confident that I know how my brain works than another person would, and I'm inclined to believe that everyone else on this board would say the same about themselves.

[owls]

word, and i'm with you on that. i believe a big step for you would be to accept what happened and start making positive steps forward mentally. you're attitude is already pretty good in my opinion!

what supplements are you currently taking right now? i was wondering if you could tell me so i don't have to go back through the thread to dig up the information. i can currently vouch for and highly recommend: piracetam, bacopa, ginkgo biloba, rhodiola, holy basil, turmeric, and perhaps gotu kola though the later i have not tried. oh, i also found ALCAR + ALA to be great for memory but that's just me.

now the fun part, let me tell you a little about myself i'm going to keep this brief. i started abusing DXM heavily at the age of 17.. i was forced to stop for a period of time and i went through basically exactly what you went through, i felt the toll it took on my mind and literally began to feel completely retarded. i went through depersonalization and derealization which took me a year and a half to get over.. i could NOT get over the feeling that i had damaged myself irrepairably, i literally went into a panic over that fear and created it created a mental block.

so anyway, being the somewhat insane person i am, instead of stopping use like a normal person might, even have been being warned of DXM's reputation of causing long term changes to brain function.. i went apeshit on the stuff again, and now at the age of 23 i estimate myself to have used the chemical 300 different times, easy. probably at least 50 seperate 900mg doses.. my record, one day during the summer of '09 i used a total of 3.3 grams of DXM in an 18 hour period. i actually just used 300mg this past wendsday (a mistake, i've resolved to quit for good)

i can attest that although there have been some functional changes in how my mind works, i'm still just as intelligent.. experiences like this will make you a stronger person in the long haul. please take what you can out of mine. got any questions? feel more than free to PM me or reply to this thread, i will try to help you out

p.s. this might come as a shock to you and more drugs might be the last thing you ever thought would help, but i always found psilocybin (mushrooms, yes the kind that make you hallucinate) to be extremely invaluable at repairing the damage to my mind.. shrooms are made up of b vitamins (choline included,) proteins, and of course psilocybin and psilocin at the least

anyways man take care and think positive! meditate

[Spectre]

Update:

I incorporated Deprenyl and ginkgo biloba back into my regimen (I don't necessarily advocate stacking Deprenyl with Mirtazapine as I'm doing, I'm honestly taking a risk by combining the two but I'm sticking with 5mg of Deprenyl in the mornings and 15mg Mirtazapine at night). I've seen continued positive results, and I believe the Sulbutiamine is the true key factor in fixing memory issues brought on by both dxm and salvia divinorum. Most of my depression has been eliminated, and I keep feeling more and more normal as time goes on (not only more so normal, but enhanced as well). I will continue supplementing with Sulbutiamine and I honestly wouldn't mind taking it for the rest of my life lol. My sleeping issues have been pretty much eradicated with the Mirtazapine, and it's really just given me positive results all around. Deprenyl really helps with my depression as well and keeps me in a very focused state of mind, I tend to be more productive while I take it..the ginkgo helps with my thinking clarity and I will continue to take that as well. I hope my experience can help others who have been suffering from drug induced brain damage similar to myself..if anyone has a question feel free to post

[owls]

you're crazy dude

[Spectre]

you're crazy dude

Brilliant post.

[owls]

go outside and get some fresh air. you're letting one mistake completely sidetrack your life...

do yoga

[Spectre]

go outside and get some fresh air. you're letting one mistake completely sidetrack your life...

do yoga

What are you talking about? I was just updating my recovery from the issue that I've been dealing with, which for the most part has gone away, and not really affecting my life like it was before. I'm currently on a detox program (Dual-Action Cleanse), to help with my overall health and I'm going to start a new training regimen and get back into bodybuilding..I've also had other positive things going on with my life and fixing my memory issues has really made an improvement on my self-confidence and overall perspective on life. (Recently built my new computer rig so I can get back into 3d animation work again). Things are going quite well this issue isn't really weighing my life down anymore..I'm still not 100% but I'm pretty close to full recovery.

[J. Galt]

Salvia scares the crap out of me. I had an immensely disturbing trip trip the first time I took it - too bizarre and abstract to even attempt to articulate here - then tried it a second time a few weeks later at a lower dosage, but with similarly bizarre effects. While I fortunately have suffered no long term effects from it, I will never try it again.

Seriously, this drug produced the most intense and dissociative hallucinations I've ever experienced (like an entire 8-hour mushroom trip condensed into five minutes), and I can easily imagine people hurting themselves or others in any manner of ways while tripping on this stuff (like the old urban legend where the stoned babysitter accidentally cooks the baby in the oven, or someone thinking they can fly and jumping out of a four story window).

tts astonishing that salvia is legal while marijuana and LSD - arguably two of the most potentially therapeutic drugs known to man - remain illegal.

[Spectre]

Bump...

I started taking D-Aspartic Acid (stacked with SAMe), and I've noticed an absolutely remarkable improvement in my symptoms..I'm taking both to increase natural testosterone levels but I read that SAMe helps convert D-Aspartic Acid into N-Methyl-D-Aspartate. I've only been taking this for 5 days and I can already see a difference. This has lead me to believe that my problem more than likely was the cause of NMDA receptor disruption. I'll continue taking both supplements, I haven't had sulbutiamine in a little while as I cannot bear the taste but I will take it again soon. I believe memory issues brought on by DXM/Salvia can be cured with D-Aspartic Acid, SAMe, and Sulbutiamine taken together..I wish I could get some studies done on this lol, I think this would be a great discovery.

[Alice Practice]

For what it's worth, Salvia's action is curiously limited to k-opioid and D2 receptors and I feel strongly it didn't play a role in your damage. Despite its sheer intensity and atypical dissociative properties, I believe it is likely far safer than most hallucinogens. I'm not implying that makes it any more advisable for you personally to ever use again. Please keep us updated on your progress. My poison was nitrous and I'm extremely interested in healing. Good thread.

[Werkshop]

Spectre, I got an account just because of this very helpful and interesting post.

I was just wondering which supplements helped with ANY issue (ex. depression, anxiety, brain fog, depersonalization, anhedonia, memory, etc.), and if you can, would you kindly list each one and what it helped with?

Also, it would be nice to see how you're coming along. I've read through this whole thread already, but due to my memory problems, I can't remember even half of the things you've suggested, and I know that your opinion on different supplements have changed throughout the course of your use as well.

Before DXM (other drugs may have possibly had part, such as ADHD medication, synthetic marijuana (herbal incense), salvia, and--least likely--marijuana), I was a very funny, highly intelligent social butterfly who could have a conversation with anyone about anything, and I was very much in control of my life. I had plenty of friends who LOVED me. I mean, seriously--they all claimed me to be their absolute best friend, and I would have on average about 5-7 friends at my house, daily. We would find absolutely anything to keep us entertained, and would constantly be having deep, intense, or hysterically funny conversations about everything, and never got bored. I had a girlfriend which I had tried and tried to get for FOUR YEARS, and I finally got her. She was absolutely the love of my life, and the thing I miss most about my old life. In school, I would procrastinate my homework because it was too easy and it would bore me to death, so I just didn't do it and aced my tests to balance my grades to above passing (the teachers hated this). All in all, I was--not to brag--a pretty fucking cool, awesome cat, and now, I'm not even half of a shadow of the man I used to be.

My friends and I would smoke a little bud on occasion, and we had a good time. We'd drink and become a hilarious pack of goofballs. The very few memories that haven't been erased from my mind hurt a hell of a lot, because to remember and realize how perfect life was is more painful than words can express. Eventually, I got more and more curious about drugs and started looking up easy ways to get high. I stumbled across DXM, and didn't read too much about it besides that it was a crazy-ass trip (which was stupid, but I was very naive and young--16, to be precise). So, in turn, I went to the local Hy-Vee and stole a couple of bottles of Robitussin Maximum Strength, and chugged it with a buddy of mine who had tried it before. We had a crazy fun time, and I should've left it at that, but being the hazardous fun-seeker I was, I kept up my soon-to-be drug addiction. Eventually, one bottle led to the next, and I wound up chugging 2 bottles every night, laying in bed with big headphones on, and blasting techno into my ears while I tripped. It was a sad pattern that had no benefits whatsoever. In the morning, I would wake up and still be tripping my balls off, but having the confidence I had back then, I could easily go to school and pull it off. People would say my pupils were as big as bowling balls, but I just played it off like they were crazy.

Eventually, I started loosing my confidence, and my anxiety started creeping up on me. When I would go to school, I would fear the teachers calling on me (which was opposite of how I was before, as I used to blurt out the answers to EVERYTHING), and I would not make eye contact. I stopped talking to pretty much everyone, and just walked through life like a drone. I remember one particular incident where my friends and I had a little robo-day. We went to Walmart and basically raided all of their DXM-only-containing products, and tripped the whole day. I was driving around, but I wanted to have a very intense trip, so I wanted to get to a safe location where I wasn't behind the wheel, so we went to a friend's house, where we all tripped. (His parents aren't against drugs, but they thought DXM was really stupid--should've listened to them.) While we were tripping, we had some funny experiences, but one of my best friends took a LOT, and ended up blacking out into a complete hallucination. He says he remembers being inside of a dragon's belly, and he had to cut his way out. When we were all sitting on the couch together, he looked over to me and stared for a couple of seconds, and then slapped me extremely hard for no reason whatsoever. I cried at the time from being so emotional on DXM, but looking back at it, it was pretty fucking funny. A lot of funny things were said that night, and I had a 3-hour conversation with my friends dad about how I was going to sell my Dale Earnhardt collectible car to buy him a Whizzinator so he could pass drug screenings and still smoke pot with us.

I can't help but to laugh at our stupidity, but ever since that night, things have been different. My best friend didn't recover for about a day after, and I would go over to see him, and he was pretty loopy still, which at the time was funny, but then he started saying things like, "I think I might be permanently retarded from it." and similar things about how he thinks that trip fried his brain permanently, and he felt stupid. At the time, I was indifferent to those particular feelings of his and shrugged it off as just a residual effect of the drug that would go away. Since then, I haven't spoken to that friend about it, and we have lost contact. I'm pretty sure he hates me now because of multiple reasons. It wasn't until a little later that I started noticing the same things. Maybe it was because of my ego, but I remained somewhat confident about myself for awhile. Somewhere down the road everything started hitting me. I started abusing synthetic marijuana (herbal incense), got prescribed Adderall for what I thought was ADHD (really most likely just a problem caused by the DXM), lost all of my non-loser/druggie friends, and dropped out of high school and went to alternative school, which I also dropped out of and switched to online homeschooling (which I've almost got completed). I can't have fluent conversations with anyone, unless it's with one of those people that just talk and talk and talk, which I actually admire now, as it gets rid of some of the anxiety. I barely ever leave my house (let alone, my room). Thoughts of suicide always seem to creep in my head, and I've actually made one attempt with a shotgun in my mouth, but could not bring myself to pull the trigger, which I'm glad I didn't. Probably the worst part about all of this was losing the girl of my dreams--the girl I had tried for and cried over for four years. I eventually couldn't feel emotion anymore, and I had to break up with her, because I didn't think it was fair to her to be in a relationship with someone who couldn't even feel the love they are given. It took her about 7 months to a year to move on, but she is now dating one of my ex-best friends, which tears my heart apart anytime I think of it now, but I try my best to be happy for her.

Some of my emotions and memories have come back after extensive research on the web and sobriety for about 4-6 months. I'm starting to listen and play some of the old music I listened to, making a few connections with old friends, and am trying to get out more, but there is an issue with friends now--during my haze, I moved with my parents to a new house about 2 hours away from my hometown, which exacerbates the social situation severely, as I am FAR to scared and unprepared to go out and make friends in this new town. I have yet to get a job, but I want one really bad. I wish I could find something to work on from home until I am cured. Money is an issue, so I have to wait awhile to see a doctor, but even once I do, I am very hesitant to accept prescription medications, as I fear they will make things worse. As of now, I've recovered so far due to sobriety, supplements (will list later in the post), exercise, and trying to talk to my old friends more on the phone and Xbox. I'm feeling a tad bit better all the time, but every day is still a struggle, and I am far from complete recovery.

Also, what do you know about DXM changing your cannabinoid receptors? Ever since DXM, marijuana and other cannabinoids (ex. synthetic marijuana--terrible shit, in my opinion) has been a completely different experience. Anytime pre-DXM binge, I could sit back, relax, and have a few joints with my friends, and I would be perfectly fine--even better, you could say. I would be funnier, I would think about much deeper topics and theories, I would be able to act sober if need be, and I would just be a generally really happy person. Now, post-DXM binge, whenever I smoke (including herbal incense (synthetic marijuana)), I get anxiety, feel really, really stupid, can't seem to talk to anyone about anything, and prefer to be away from people. I hate it.

Oh, and here is a list of the supplements I'm currently on:
B-Complex (1 in the morning)
C: 500mg + Rose Hips & D3: 1000 IU (1 in the morning)
Fish Oil: 1750mg (3 times/day with meals)
5-HTP: 100mg (1 in the morning)
St. John's Wort: 300mg (3 times/day with meals)
Acetyl L-Carnitine: 400mg + Alpha Lipoic Acid: 200mg (3 times/day with meals)
Focus Factor (3-6 tablets/day with meals) MANY, MANY ingredients in this one, but could be a sham.
Valerian Root (use 2 whenever stressed and about 4-5 before bed)

Please (ANYBODY), let me know what changes you would make or supplements you would add to this regime.

This is a list of supplements I am considering. Add what information you have about them:
Piracetam
Aniracetam
Lecithin
AlphaGPC
Centrophenoxine (Lucidril)
Deprenyl
DMAE
Taurine
L-Tyrosine
DL-Phenylanine
Huperzine-A
Ibogaine
Ashwaghanda
R-ALA
Spirulina
Galantamine
Vinpocetine
Phenylethylamine HCL
Guarana
Rhodiola Rosea
CoQ10

Please list which of these could help and which ones you would stay away from.

A very big thank you in advance to those who take the time to help.

[Spectre]

Update..it's been a while since I posted on here, but after quitting all the supplements and my antidepressant (mirtazapine), everything in my life started going downhill again..I started taking oxycodone, real stupid idea, and it contributed to my depersonalization disorder. After doing much research into the issue, I found out that my kappa opioid receptor system is 100% what caused all my problems these past 4 years!! Oxycodone is speculated to be a k-opioid receptor agonist along with DXM and salvinorin a, and it caused so many problems during the time I was on it..actually, my entire life has been hell this year so far, up until last week.

I started taking suboxone, a friend of mine dealt with the exact same derealization as I did, and they told me about suboxone (it contains buprenorphine and naloxone, primarily used to get people off of heroin and other opiates). I was able to obtain some and ever since I started taking it, my dissociation and crazy thoughts have COMPLETELY disappeared!! The effects are cumulative, but they seem more profound each time I take it. I'd rather get a prescription to the non-narcotic naloxone or naltrexone which is longer lasting. They are kappa-opioid receptor antagonists, and it's seriously changed my life. I feel smarter now than I ever have in my entire life, I thought for sure I had permanent brain-damage, and that I was going to be stuck in this dissociated state of mind for the rest of my life...well, that's not the case at all anymore.

This kappa blocker has increased every aspect of my intelligence, especially my short-term and working memory. My motor coordination skills have completely skyrocketed, my thoughts and ideas flow together more easily, my motivation is insanely high, and I'm able to create art and music like never before. My anxiety, depression, racing & psychotic thoughts have all disappeared, and I feel so much more alive, this is what I've needed this entire time. I've never felt so great and my brain is working like never before (and this is without all the other nootropics and supplements on top of it). You have to fix the core issue before trying to improve the rest of your brain, otherwise you'll just drive yourself crazy trying to find a cure to this issue.

Werkshop, there is hope..trust me, you will get better. I would immediately start taking low-dose naltrexone, it will bring everything back. This has given me my life back, and I plan on opening up an alternative psychiatric clinic to help other people that are going through depersonalization disorder and anxiety. I can't find any psychiatrist that will give me kappa blockers, I've tried to explain my situation to them but they just stare at me with a bewildered and confused look on their face, and they believe the best thing to do is throw 6-7 different insane drugs at me (antidepressants, anti-epileptics, tranquilizers, etc etc). I absolutely CANNOT believe how incompetent these doctors are, they should have told me about this stuff years ago. That supplement list is huge, I would cut down. I recommend this stack to get you stabilized and back in working order, and possibly add in more stuff later on:

- Naltrexone (the most important, k-opioid receptor antagonist)
- Fish Oil (3-5g daily)
- Multivitamin (I recommend Source Naturals "Life Force")
- methyl b12 (sublingual)
- NAC (n-acetylcysteine)
- ginseng (if you need more energy)

I have some NAC on order, it's been said to really help with derealization/depersonalization. DPD can and WILL cause profound confusion, anxiety, and depression. I've been dealing with it for over 4 years now..but it's all about to turn around completely. Stay FAR AWAY from ibogaine, it will just add to your dissociative symptoms..it's an NMDA receptor antagonist and a k-opioid receptor agonist, 2 very bad things. I'd also steer clear of huperzine-a for the time being. Try out my simplified stack and let me know how it goes.

[Orajel]

Time is the main thing, and NOT USING ANY MORE DRUGS!
Exercise, healthy diet, hydration, mental stimulation and the right supplements can be invaluable.

Unfortunately for me, I was at one point a heavy user of DXM, I've used probably a third of a kilogram of it in my lifetime (give or take 50g). I also used other other hallucinogens, methamphetamine, cocaine, MDMA and some other stuff, and experienced full blown drug induced psychosis on many occasions. I was actually hospitalized (and restrained) twice, specifically for overdoses that caused toxic psychosis. Not to mention the full blown meth psychosis I've experienced on a number of occasions, I mean hearing voices, shadow people, delusions, all that.

This is how I've bounced back (mostly, im still a work in progress)

TIME: Not using drugs, or alcohol, for nearly 2 years. You can start any time, don't screw yourself up more.

EXERCISE - what I did: cardio, power lifting, yoga (amazing), jiu-jitsu, wrestling, muay thai

SCHOOL - to keep the mind active and facilitate regrowth

HEALTHY DIET - vegies, whole grains, lean protein, elimination diet if appropriate

SUPPLEMENTATION - omega 3's, multi v, whatever else seems important

MEDICATION - I needed nearly 2 years of welbutrin, my adrenals were shot from crystal methamphetamine and unhealthy lifestyle. I was horribly depressed when I came off this stuff. I was also prescribed other medication, but didn't respond well to it. Welbutrin gave me bad anxiety, but allowed me to function, go to work and go to school.

[Werkshop]

Thanks a ton for all the suggestions, guys.

Spectre, this is a great new find! Also, I'm really glad you're coming back to your old senses, and can't wait to try it myself! Have you been better in conversations, and how has it effected your mood? Oh, and how can I obtain Naltrexone? If I have to tell a doctor a little white lie to get it, I can do so. Anything to be back to my old self.

Orajel, I feel your pain. DXM definitely wasn't the only drug I indulged in. I've done meth 5 times (thankfully never got hooked), smoked crack 3 times, smoked pot like it was a full-time job (plus overtime), hit the booze pretty hard, popped diphenhydramine (Benadryl; Unisom) a couple times, smoked a LOT of herbal incense (synthetic marijuana laced with research chemicals), smoked salvia about 7-8 times, and went on a 2-3 week air duster binge (I think the duster may have contributed to my mental problems too).

Honestly, the only drug I truly miss is the ganja. Somewhere along the line, one of those drugs (presumably the DXM) must have fucked with my cannabinoid receptors, because for quite some time, whenever I smoke, I get paranoid, anxious, and very, very forgetful. I start to over-analyze everything, and become very awkward to talk to. I hate it, so I had to quit. I think the synthetic marijuana might have played a role in this as well, but I'll never know.

I can't remember much, but what I do remember is that when I started chugging two bottles of Robitussin daily, that's when things started going downhill, so I can only assume that's the main cause of all of these problems with social interaction, memory, mood, sense of humor, etc.

Now, I only drink alcohol occasionally. I know I should probably stop to let my mind heal, but do you think that getting a little tipsy from time to time sets me back much? I want an honest opinion, because if it does, I'll drop the bottles right away.

Also, I'm so anxious about going out into the "real world," that I can't even apply for a job. I'm still living with my parents at 18, so this is a problem that bugs me and my parents constantly. They really don't understand me or how I feel, no matter how hard I explain it. They don't understand that I need to fix my mind before I go out and meet important people. In conversations, I never have much to talk about unless the other person does most of the talking. I used to be the one who yapped on about everything and everyone loved me for that. I would always be funny, creative, or interesting, so they never wanted me to shut up, and when I stopped talking for 2 minutes, they'd always ask me why I was being quiet. Now, when I talk for longer than a minute, they all give me and each other this look like, "Damn, is this fucking guy ever going to shut up!?" It hurts, man. All throughout my life, I've only wanted to spread my happiness to others, but I guess what they say is true. "You can't make others happy if you're not happy yourself."

[Spectre]

Werkshop, naloxone has absolutely changed everything for me. When I speak, I'm much more articulate and coherent, and everyone around me has noticed a tremendous change in how I act. I would say that it's gotten me to act much more "mature", at least in the way I act towards other people and the way I communicate with them. I notice things other people don't, I tend to think much faster than people around me, and all-around just seem much more "on-point" than before. I wouldn't say I'm arrogant, but I'm a lot more logical and think things through much quicker than the people I talk to, and I have a very hard time dealing with other people that aren't on my level (my patience wears very thin while I take this stuff)..I went from a person that was going insane and couldn't think rationally, to someone who thinks almost too rationally now..but I absolutely love it! My motor skills have improved tremendously, I react much quicker than before, and I feel a lot more in control of situations, it's completely killed any sense of anxiety that I previously had. I'm not overstating when I say that this WILL change your life..you will feel capable of anything, and your mental problems will disappear after you try this.

You can order naltrexone on alldaychemist, I'm trying to obtain a legitimate prescription from a psychiatrist, but my next appointment isn't until the end of the month. The tablets on the site are 50mg, and come in packs of 10. I'm ordering 3 packs, and will be dividing each tablet into 8 doses each, so it'll last me for 240 doses. You don't need a high dose of this stuff to cure OCD and depersonalization. The price is more than worth it, you'll be getting your life and sanity back. It's literally a miracle drug, and I feel better now than ever before. You'll feel vigilant, intelligent, with an improved memory, less anxiety and depression, just all around better. Take my word on it.

[Gamerzneed]

Werkshop, naloxone has absolutely changed everything for me. When I speak, I'm much more articulate and coherent, and everyone around me has noticed a tremendous change in how I act. I would say that it's gotten me to act much more "mature", at least in the way I act towards other people and the way I communicate with them. I notice things other people don't, I tend to think much faster than people around me, and all-around just seem much more "on-point" than before. I wouldn't say I'm arrogant, but I'm a lot more logical and think things through much quicker than the people I talk to, and I have a very hard time dealing with other people that aren't on my level (my patience wears very thin while I take this stuff)..I went from a person that was going insane and couldn't think rationally, to someone who thinks almost too rationally now..but I absolutely love it! My motor skills have improved tremendously, I react much quicker than before, and I feel a lot more in control of situations, it's completely killed any sense of anxiety that I previously had. I'm not overstating when I say that this WILL change your life..you will feel capable of anything, and your mental problems will disappear after you try this.

You can order naltrexone on alldaychemist, I'm trying to obtain a legitimate prescription from a psychiatrist, but my next appointment isn't until the end of the month. The tablets on the site are 50mg, and come in packs of 10. I'm ordering 3 packs, and will be dividing each tablet into 8 doses each, so it'll last me for 240 doses. You don't need a high dose of this stuff to cure OCD and depersonalization. The price is more than worth it, you'll be getting your life and sanity back. It's literally a miracle drug, and I feel better now than ever before. You'll feel vigilant, intelligent, with an improved memory, less anxiety and depression, just all around better. Take my word on it.

-What do you think it would do if a normal person took naloxone/naltrexone (nootropic value)? Would they get extra mental clarity + speed of thinking?
-Do you feel a noticable difference between using nalaxone vs naltrexone?
- Also, this is from wikipedia: " Naloxone is a μ-opioid receptor competitive antagonist, and its rapid blockade of those receptors often produces rapid onset of withdrawal symptoms". Did you experience any withdrawls or anything like that? It would make sense if withdrawls do happen when you first start taking naloxone because of upregulation happening just like the side effects of memantine when you first start taking it and you get brainfog.
- How long do the effects last for? Do you have to redose every hour/day/weeek?
- Since your blocking opioid receptors (antagonism), wouldn't they upregulate and become more sensitive which could possibly make you super sensitive to opiates or something?
- Wouldn't it be better to use nalorphine instead since it is longer acting than naloxone? Although it is a mu-antagonist and kappa agonist, wouldn't that be counterproductive since you said kappa-receptor antagonism is what treated your derealization?
- You also seem to be talking about naloxone and naltrexone, what is the difference between them (pros/cons) in your experience? I think since naltrexone has a higher affinity for k-receptors (antagonism), it should be more effective than naloxone.

Edited by Gamerzneed, 18 March 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[Werkshop]

Thank you very much, Spectre. I'm going to take your word for it and give it a shot. $16.80 is NOTHING in comparison to my sanity, and I'll also follow your tips on dividing doses. If this works for me, you can guarantee you won't ever hear the end of my gratitude, and you'll have yourself a new internet best friend.

I'm curious about the proposed questions from Gamerzneed as well. I'd especially like to know if this is a permanent correction, or if this is something I'm going to need to keep taking for life.

EDIT: I just found out about an anti-epileptic medicine that's supposed to reverse the effects of ketamine (a dissociative, like DXM).

Here's a clip of some information about it:

“Our own clinical experience has been that many patients referred to our clinic have been on an SSRI for prolonged periods with little or no impact on their symptoms, and this has led us to investigate other potential pharmacotherapies, in particular the anticonvulsant lamotrigine. Lamotrigine acts at the presynaptic membrane to reduce the release of glutamate, and it has been shown to reverse depersonalisation-related phenomena induced by the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist ketamine in healthy individuals (Anand et al, 2000). In the absence of large-scale randomised controlled trials, and in the presence of conflicting published data (see below), the efficacy of lamotrigine (whether as monotherapy or in conjunction with an SSRI) is not yet firmly established, but it is often our first-line treatment for the condition.”

Any thoughts?

Edited by Werkshop, 18 March 2012 - 10:21 AM.