60 replies to this topic

[medievil]

Sure, I'd agree that some drugs have the potential to decrease total antioxidant availability, increasing the risk of oxidative assault caused by MDMA--but I don't think that MDMA by itself can't either 1) both decrease antioxidative defense and increase oxidative assault or 2) overwhelm antioxidative defense and thus cause oxidative assualt; although, it is difficult to find strictly MDMA users and hence the lack of formal research. Other neurotoxins, e.g., alcohol, chemotherapy, methamphetamine, all cause neurotoxicity without potentiation from other substances. MDMA in animal models is the same.

Oxidative stress plays a big role in neurotoxiticy caused by MDMA (antioxidants are neuroprotective too), i didnt claim that mdma also decreases the antioxidant enzyme's, but if other drugs can do this, the damage from MDMA can be potentiated.

Edited by medievil, 21 May 2010 - 04:39 PM.

[chrono]

If you have studies suporting your claims, (where polydruguse has been seperated from MDMA use) feel free to post them.

medievil, if you haven't yet, I encourage you to read through some of the more recent neuroimaging studies that jama posted and (some of which) I quoted/linked previously. These drastically altered my understanding of how innocuous MDMA can be thought to be. Some of the NeXT studies controlled for various kinds of polydrug usage, or re-scanned shortly after first-time use.

[medievil]

If you have studies suporting your claims, (where polydruguse has been seperated from MDMA use) feel free to post them.

medievil, if you haven't yet, I encourage you to read through some of the more recent neuroimaging studies that jama posted and (some of which) I quoted/linked previously. These drastically altered my understanding of how innocuous MDMA can be thought to be. Some of the NeXT studies controlled for various kinds of polydrug usage, or re-scanned shortly after first-time use.

I havent looked at them yet, but if they looked at poly drug use id agree it can be concluded MDMA causes some damage. However without poly drug use this damage doesnt seem to cause any big noticable problems in the long term as the studies i posted didnt find long term problems except in poly drug users.

[Ark]

If you have studies suporting your claims, (where polydruguse has been seperated from MDMA use) feel free to post them.

medievil, if you haven't yet, I encourage you to read through some of the more recent neuroimaging studies that jama posted and (some of which) I quoted/linked previously. These drastically altered my understanding of how innocuous MDMA can be thought to be. Some of the NeXT studies controlled for various kinds of polydrug usage, or re-scanned shortly after first-time use.

I havent looked at them yet, but if they looked at poly drug use id agree it can be concluded MDMA causes some damage. However without poly drug use this damage doesnt seem to cause any big noticable problems in the long term as the studies i posted didnt find long term problems except in poly drug users.

I've heard you can reduce the damage done on MDMA by taking Shrooms at the same time, but at a low dosage. Also you sound like you don't want to admit to the fact that MDA/MDMA is harmful, I think it's one of the few that can have odd long term effects on the brain. Wasn't there a study on MDMA causing serious emzym enblances which could lead to all sorts of personality disorders. Perhaps one day they can make a safe alternitive to E like http://www.entheogen...ead.php?t=23216

[dronez]

so does anyone have any supplement recommendations other than Ashwaghanda? This isn't really a thread on whether or not there is damage caused by MDMA or if so, to what extent. I mean, we really don't know the scale of the damage that is occurring. I am generally interested in anything I can do to get my brain back in balance. I know there are negative reports/studies on the harms of the chemical, but everytime I read them it just makes me think I have damaged myself beyond repair. This is not a good thing to constantly think. I do like knowing about the studies though because they raise awareness of the necessity of responsible use (more responsible use is better than abuse and no/extremely minimal use is better still).

I keep hearing exercise helps the brain regenerate.

Edited by dronez, 31 May 2010 - 06:05 AM.

[medievil]

If you have studies suporting your claims, (where polydruguse has been seperated from MDMA use) feel free to post them.

medievil, if you haven't yet, I encourage you to read through some of the more recent neuroimaging studies that jama posted and (some of which) I quoted/linked previously. These drastically altered my understanding of how innocuous MDMA can be thought to be. Some of the NeXT studies controlled for various kinds of polydrug usage, or re-scanned shortly after first-time use.

I havent looked at them yet, but if they looked at poly drug use id agree it can be concluded MDMA causes some damage. However without poly drug use this damage doesnt seem to cause any big noticable problems in the long term as the studies i posted didnt find long term problems except in poly drug users.

I've heard you can reduce the damage done on MDMA by taking Shrooms at the same time, but at a low dosage. Also you sound like you don't want to admit to the fact that MDA/MDMA is harmful, I think it's one of the few that can have odd long term effects on the brain. Wasn't there a study on MDMA causing serious emzym enblances which could lead to all sorts of personality disorders. Perhaps one day they can make a safe alternitive to E like http://www.entheogen...ead.php?t=23216

If the studies dont fing long term problems with MDMA on its own, why should i "admit" that it does? You also talk about the "fact" while those studies i posted clearly point to poly drug use.(altough those studies are pretty small) The next studies did find some neurological damage if chrono is correct (wich isnt associated with poly drug use), but this damage doesnt cause any significant problems, however as jama said this damage may only be notacible in certain complex tasks, wich isnt picked up in the normal cognitive tests.

If you talk about the "facts" id like to see the references. Saying that MDMA causes personality disorders and other severe problems is a pretty wild claim.

I doubt that mushrooms can reduce the damage as they may increase hyperthermia, abolish hyperthermia and neurotoxiticy is gone too.
As you may have noticed i actually admitted that i damaged myself by taking too much stuff togheter.

Edited by medievil, 31 May 2010 - 10:09 AM.

[jama]

so does anyone have any supplement recommendations other than Ashwaghanda? This isn't really a thread on whether or not there is damage caused by MDMA or if so, to what extent. I mean, we really don't know the scale of the damage that is occurring. I am generally interested in anything I can do to get my brain back in balance. I know there are negative reports/studies on the harms of the chemical, but everytime I read them it just makes me think I have damaged myself beyond repair. This is not a good thing to constantly think. I do like knowing about the studies though because they raise awareness of the necessity of responsible use (more responsible use is better than abuse and no/extremely minimal use is better still).

I keep hearing exercise helps the brain regenerate.

I listed some supplements earlier in the forum that have theoretical efficaciousness; as I've been noticing, I don't think that other people are going to be able to provide much more than that. It seems that any regeneration occurring would necessitate a dedicated lifestyle change (including diet, exercise, mood) and a considerable amount of time, both conditions being not only arduous to maintain, but also subtle in their gradual effect. And it is difficult to state whether any particular supplements are especially effective from personal experience. It also has to be considered that the people who have recovered don't have a need any longer for forums such as these, and while it would be nice to hear a few encouraging words, it may be unlikely.

As the the scale of the damage occurring, it is subtle. I'm not trying to understate the facts but keep in mind that every one of these research papers comments on minimality of the impairment. Also consider that in animal models, although axonal regeneration was not complete after 7 years post-MDMA exposure, it was more comprehensive than at 0 and 18 months post-MDMA exposure--thus, there is regrowth occurring, and this is a very important fact to remember. Anything encouraging this restitutive process--as wasn't the case in the animal or human models--is beneficial.

I can't disagree with your usage evaluations, though to be stuck on wherever you fall could be a dangerous thing. Quite honestly, what has helped me most has been exercise, diet, relaxation, and learning. Be good to your brain for awhile, exercise incontestably helps. Also, you're right: it is "not good to think" about what may or may not have happened in the past. But it takes discipline to have it otherwise, so cultivate discipline. Don't read articles, don't sulk on what may or may not have happened and what you think can't be done, don't re-diagnose yourself with a neurological impairment at every failed memory recall. And I know all of this seems sensible in coping with impairment, but it extends to ameliorating the impairment as well. Just try it, perhaps at first only a week or so at time, abstaining from all thoughts and behaviors that in any way connect to MDMA or impairment. Anxiety, worry, concern--all negative emotions with a real, researched, established, neurotrophic effect on brain environment; change you're environment, change your brain. It won't be easy, it won't be quick, it won't be impossible.

[chrono]

...However without poly drug use this damage doesnt seem to cause any big noticable problems in the long term as the studies i posted didnt find long term problems except in poly drug users.

The papers you posted were concerned only with behavioral and emotional results, not cognitive. And determining whether someone has sustained damage to their serotonin system (let alone other brain regions) via diagnosis of depression or anxiety seems pretty iffy, to me.

And on another note, I think drawing the conclusion that polydrug use causes more damage (based on this kind of data, and not known mechanisms) is premature. It seems equally plausible that in these small studies, the polydrug users were people who had pre-existing emotional problems which prompted them into such a usage pattern.

But your point about magnitude of the problem is a good one. Even if MDMA can be shown to cause definite, and even significant, structural damage to the brain, do these manifest in any relevant way? Would we notice (to pick an arbitrary figure) a 10% decrease in verbal memory capacity? 20%? Personally, the idea makes me very uncomfortable; but for someone who gets a lot out of this substance, it may be a worthwhile risk.

so does anyone have any supplement recommendations other than Ashwaghanda? This isn't really a thread on whether or not there is damage caused by MDMA or if so, to what extent. I mean, we really don't know the scale of the damage that is occurring.

Forgive me, but I think that's precisely what this thread is about. How can one make a cogent recommendation about repairing damage, without being clear about what kind of damage is to be repaired? Which isn't to say that any of the info here provides anything like certainty about either problem or treatment.

I did a little searching on the topic of axonal regeneration. Didn't find anything specifically helpful, but a lot of papers referred to neurotrophic growth factors. This leads me to believe that supplements which increase or mimic NGF and BDNF would create conditions conducive to repairing the kind of damage we're talking about (see my post #5 for a few examples; more can be found by searching the forum for NGF or neurogenesis). Seems reasonable, but efficacy in dealing with this problem is only conjecture.

I listed some supplements earlier in the forum that have theoretical efficaciousness...

I'm curious, can you tell me what your reasoning was regarding SJW, gotu kola, and bacopa? I haven't studied any of these extensively, and I'm not clear on how they might help repair this type of damage.

I'm still hoping Animal will pop in when he has a minute, and let us know what was on his mind with regard to pharmaceutical options—or what other mechanisms might conceivably help out.

[csrpj]

yo medievil, what RC did you take? i'd like to know to know what to stay clear of... are the 2Cs safe on the brain?

[medievil]

And determining whether someone has sustained damage to their serotonin system (let alone other brain regions) via diagnosis of depression or anxiety seems pretty iffy, to me.

I never said there isnt any damage, just that MDMA on its own only causes subtle damage and not long term depression, personality disorder of other things wich are sometimes claimed. Unless there are studies showing that MDMA use on its own causes significant problems wich proof those others wrong. Yeah you appear to be correct that they only looked at emotional problems. If anyone has a study showing cognitive impairment after MDMA use (and not poly drug use), then offcourse i stand corrected.

And on another note, I think drawing the conclusion that polydrug use causes more damage (based on this kind of data, and not known mechanisms) is premature. It seems equally plausible that in these small studies, the polydrug users were people who had pre-existing emotional problems which prompted them into such a usage pattern.

Yes, thats a possibility, didnt think of that.

Edited by medievil, 31 May 2010 - 09:51 PM.

[medievil]

yo medievil, what RC did you take? i'd like to know to know what to stay clear of... are the 2Cs safe on the brain?

I took a combo of several RC's wich resulted in combined serotonine/dopamine release and hyperthermia wich could make any damage worse, you probably dont have anything to worry about with the 2C's as they are just serotonine agonist.
Just stay clear of mephedrone, most other RC's are fine.

Edited by medievil, 31 May 2010 - 09:41 PM.

[dronez]

I can't disagree with your usage evaluations, though to be stuck on wherever you fall could be a dangerous thing. Quite honestly, what has helped me most has been exercise, diet, relaxation, and learning. Be good to your brain for awhile, exercise incontestably helps. Also, you're right: it is "not good to think" about what may or may not have happened in the past. But it takes discipline to have it otherwise, so cultivate discipline. Don't read articles, don't sulk on what may or may not have happened and what you think can't be done, don't re-diagnose yourself with a neurological impairment at every failed memory recall. And I know all of this seems sensible in coping with impairment, but it extends to ameliorating the impairment as well. Just try it, perhaps at first only a week or so at time, abstaining from all thoughts and behaviors that in any way connect to MDMA or impairment. Anxiety, worry, concern--all negative emotions with a real, researched, established, neurotrophic effect on brain environment; change you're environment, change your brain. It won't be easy, it won't be quick, it won't be impossible.

thanks for the post! it was very helpful and encouraging!

[jama]

...However without poly drug use this damage doesnt seem to cause any big noticable problems in the long term as the studies i posted didnt find long term problems except in poly drug users.

The papers you posted were concerned only with behavioral and emotional results, not cognitive. And determining whether someone has sustained damage to their serotonin system (let alone other brain regions) via diagnosis of depression or anxiety seems pretty iffy, to me.

But your point about magnitude of the problem is a good one. Even if MDMA can be shown to cause definite, and even significant, structural damage to the brain, do these manifest in any relevant way? Would we notice (to pick an arbitrary figure) a 10% decrease in verbal memory capacity? 20%? Personally, the idea makes me very uncomfortable; but for someone who gets a lot out of this substance, it may be a worthwhile risk.

so does anyone have any supplement recommendations other than Ashwaghanda? This isn't really a thread on whether or not there is damage caused by MDMA or if so, to what extent. I mean, we really don't know the scale of the damage that is occurring.

Forgive me, but I think that's precisely what this thread is about. How can one make a cogent recommendation about repairing damage, without being clear about what kind of damage is to be repaired? Which isn't to say that any of the info here provides anything like certainty about either problem or treatment.

I did a little searching on the topic of axonal regeneration. Didn't find anything specifically helpful, but a lot of papers referred to neurotrophic growth factors. This leads me to believe that supplements which increase or mimic NGF and BDNF would create conditions conducive to repairing the kind of damage we're talking about (see my post #5 for a few examples; more can be found by searching the forum for NGF or neurogenesis). Seems reasonable, but efficacy in dealing with this problem is only conjecture.

I listed some supplements earlier in the forum that have theoretical efficaciousness...

I'm curious, can you tell me what your reasoning was regarding SJW, gotu kola, and bacopa? I haven't studied any of these extensively, and I'm not clear on how they might help repair this type of damage.

I'm still hoping Animal will pop in when he has a minute, and let us know what was on his mind with regard to pharmaceutical options—or what other mechanisms might conceivably help out.

Depression, anxiety, and emotional dysfunction is near impossible to study. We have nothing comparable to even an IQ test for them (and we all know the baggage that already accompanies the IQ test), and the patterns of emotional dysfunction in MDMA users have been scattered; some MDMA users exhibit no measurable emotional difficulties while still exhibiting cognitive dysfunction, while others exhibit emotional difficulties and cognitive dysfunction.

As for noticing any decline in verbal memory capacity/function, I can't be sure. I haven't definitively concluded one way or the other about myself, and even if I do, who knows in what ways this impairment manifests itself? It could be quite limited, or at the same time quite pervasive.

Regarding St. John's Wort, I've only read of it acting as a mood enhancer to treat mild-to-moderate depression, but it does act on the serotonin system and as with SSRIs, may induce structural changes. I haven't seen any research regarding its effects on people without depression, or by what precise mechanism it treats depression, but it would aid the neurorepair process in a modestly depressed individual by inhibiting a depression-related decrease in neurogenesis.

Regarding Gotu Kola, there are a few recent studies mentioned in an article on brain regeneration: http://www.vrp.com/a...spx?ProdID=2256

"A breakthrough year occurred in 2005 regarding the number of studies published using Gotu kola extracts on brain function and structural changes. In one study, where Gotu kola was given to mice during postnatal development stage “(the) extract caused brain cell dendrite outgrowth and branching of dendrites in the hippocampal area of the brain.” This showed the extract “can influence the neuronal morphology and promote the higher brain function of juvenile and young adult mice.” In other words, permanent structural out branching of the neural network of the brain was observed and this resulted in higher brain functioning.30-31
In the same year, Gotu kola alcohol extract stimulated a marked increase in neurite outgrowth in human brain cells. It was shown than many different fractions of Gotu kola extracts produced neurite branching and outgrowth from the human cells, proving that there are several active principles in Gotu kola causing this growth. These active principals were identified as asiaticosides and asiatic acid. When the alcohol extract was added to the drinking water of old rats “(they) demonstrated more functional recovery and increased axonal regeneration (of neurites and dendrites), larger calibers of axons and greater numbers of myelinated (sheath-covered) axons.” The authors concluded “taken together, our findings indicate that components in Centella ethanolic [Gotu kola] extract may be useful for accelerating repair of damaged neurons.”32

Regarding bacopa, studies have noted that bacosides in bacopa enhance nerve transmission, neural regeneration, and restoration of synaptic activity. I don't know the studies off hand, but I could try to pull them up later; if nothing else, a quick search on pubmed will suffice for anyone wanting to look for themselves.

[bobman]

I really strongly believe that what a person does to change his mind counts tremendously towards recovery. These studies obviously cannot account for the distal re-enervation that may occur as a result of a highly enriched environment, introversion, meditation, nootropics, desire. Mouse studies on the effects of substance abuse are interesting, and probably representative of some of the early effects of trauma, but I don't believe they have any correlation to the recovery of someone who has a singular focus, and constant, directed action towards regaining, or surpassasing, their pre-insult cognition.

[chrono]

I really strongly believe that what a person does to change his mind counts tremendously towards recovery. These studies obviously cannot account for the distal re-enervation that may occur as a result of a highly enriched environment, introversion, meditation, nootropics, desire. Mouse studies on the effects of substance abuse are interesting, and probably representative of some of the early effects of trauma, but I don't believe they have any correlation to the recovery of someone who has a singular focus, and constant, directed action towards regaining, or surpassasing, their pre-insult cognition.

Every MDMA-related study in this thread except two involved humans, and both of those used primates for the more precise long-term histological examinations that can't be done on humans.

While I agree that the practices you mention will contribute to personal improvement, cognitive enhancement, and even neurogenesis, I really doubt that they will necessarily fix the kind of damage demonstrated in these studies. They should all be encouraged for this kind of recovery, but it shouldn't be suggested that they have so much potential that their usage negates the relevance of studies demonstrating real damage to the brain.

[bobman]

I really strongly believe that what a person does to change his mind counts tremendously towards recovery. These studies obviously cannot account for the distal re-enervation that may occur as a result of a highly enriched environment, introversion, meditation, nootropics, desire. Mouse studies on the effects of substance abuse are interesting, and probably representative of some of the early effects of trauma, but I don't believe they have any correlation to the recovery of someone who has a singular focus, and constant, directed action towards regaining, or surpassasing, their pre-insult cognition.

Every MDMA-related study in this thread except two involved humans, and both of those used primates for the more precise long-term histological examinations that can't be done on humans.

While I agree that the practices you mention will contribute to personal improvement, cognitive enhancement, and even neurogenesis, I really doubt that they will necessarily fix the kind of damage demonstrated in these studies. They should all be encouraged for this kind of recovery, but it shouldn't be suggested that they have so much potential that their usage negates the relevance of studies demonstrating real damage to the brain.

Well I guess you'd be wrong. There are substances on the market that can re-enervate, with good study-to-study consistency, collapsed CNS dendrite networks, even at medium-high radius's (compared to maximal radius in controls) from the somal body, after only 21 days of use. Meditation certainly has similar effects. While I don't believe there are any histology studies, there certainly are studies showing increased neurogenesis, and it would be silly to think that the same mechanisms which activate dendritic sprouting under pharmacological stimulation of neurogenesis aren't activated during mediation or intense study. In fact, going by your belief system, every chronically stressed person on the planet should just give up now, because clearly their devastated, retracted dendritic network can't recover. We may also want to give up on the premise that any pharmacological substance has recovery benefits. All of those studies on imipramine must be incorrect, because they show what you don't believe. On the other hand, we could just discount what you said as ridiculous.

Have you ever seen a picture of a chronically stressed rat's neurons? Here: http://i485.photobuc...gcuruc10mg2.jpg

The first is control, second is under chronic stress, third to fifth is 5,10,15mg/kg respectively of curcumin daily for 21 days, and 6th is 10mg/kg of imipramine. The damage caused by stress is most likely far more severe than that caused by mild-moderate MDMA use. Yet many of the hard working people of America aren't moronic zombies. Must be something going on don't you think :D?

Edited by bobmann, 05 July 2010 - 04:29 PM.

[chrono]

Well I guess you'd be wrong. There are substances on the market that can re-enervate, with good study-to-study consistency, collapsed CNS dendrite networks, even at medium-high radius's (compared to maximal radius in controls) from the somal body, after only 21 days of use.

Wow, that post was pretty snarky. I'm well aware of the potential effects of the various things you mentioned for neurogenesis. But just because something increases neurogenesis does not mean that it will necessarily fix any given problem.

You can't say something that reverses chronic stress damage will definitely repair MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. It's not a question of which is "stronger." There are many different types of insult caused to the brain, and in many different areas; not all substances are capable of targeting all areas of the brain, or repairing all types of damage.

There are many studies in this thread which demonstrate damage of a very specific nature. If you want to post studies demonstrating that the things you're talking about are capable of fixing this specific kind of damage, and not just increasing neurotrophic factors, I'm sure we'd all be grateful.

In fact, going by your belief system, every chronically stressed person on the planet should just give up now, because clearly their devastated, retracted dendritic network can't recover. We may also want to give up on the premise that any pharmacological substance has recovery benefits. All of those studies on imipramine must be incorrect, because they show what you don't believe. On the other hand, we could just discount what you said as ridiculous.

It is blazingly obvious from my posts in this thread, and literally dozens of others, that I think many substances have potential to do all of these things. All I'm saying (and very clearly) is that just because the potential for recovery exists, does not mean that a specific type of damage will necessarily be repaired.

It is absolutely essential for risk assessment and treatment choice that we determine as accurately as possible what each substance can reasonably be said to do. Your argument that this damage can definitely be fixed is based on a string of tenuous assumptions and wishful thinking.

[edit: because I was running out the door yesterday]

Edited by chrono, 06 July 2010 - 03:02 PM.

[bobman]

Well I guess you'd be wrong. There are substances on the market that can re-enervate, with good study-to-study consistency, collapsed CNS dendrite networks, even at medium-high radius's (compared to maximal radius in controls) from the somal body, after only 21 days of use.

Wow, that post was pretty snarky. I'm well aware of the potential effects of the various things you mentioned for neurogenesis. But just because something increases neurogenesis does not mean that it will necessarily fix any given problem.

You can't say something that reverses chronic stress damage will definitely repair MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. It's not a question of which is "stronger." There are many different types of insult caused to the brain, and in many different areas; not all substances are capable of targeting all areas of the brain, or repairing all types of damage.

There are many studies in this thread which demonstrate damage of a very specific nature. If you want to post studies demonstrating that the things you're talking about are capable of fixing this specific kind of damage, and not just increasing neurotrophic factors, I'm sure we'd all be grateful.

In fact, going by your belief system, every chronically stressed person on the planet should just give up now, because clearly their devastated, retracted dendritic network can't recover. We may also want to give up on the premise that any pharmacological substance has recovery benefits. All of those studies on imipramine must be incorrect, because they show what you don't believe. On the other hand, we could just discount what you said as ridiculous.

It is blazingly obvious from my posts in this thread, and literally dozens of others, that I think many substances have potential to do all of these things. All I'm saying (and very clearly) is that just because the potential for recovery exists, does not mean that a specific type of damage will necessarily be repaired.

It is absolutely essential for risk assessment and treatment choice that we determine as accurately as possible what each substance can reasonably be said to do. Your argument that this damage can definitely be fixed is based on a string of tenuous assumptions and wishful thinking.

[edit: because I was running out the door yesterday]

That's not true. You're saying it won't happen.

What risk assessment? If this person was talking about reducing seizure frequency, and weighing anti-convulsant therapy vs potential cognitive impairment, I'd use all of my knowledge of anticonvulsant histology studies, combined with epidemiological results to aid him, and make a very cautious recommendation with regards to treatment, to weigh known and potential risks with known and potential benefits. Recommending a course of treatment that has the kind of safety profile that noots and ashwagandha, gotu kola, and camellia sinensis have isn't reckless. The assertion that recovery can absolutely happen, if the question is re-enervating distally connected neurons isn't hypothetical, it's probable based on modern research.

Your argument that it isn't possible is baseless. Taking the negative position doesn't ease the burden of proof.

And laughing at the human spirit, at the ability of desire to aid in recovery is a stance most medical professionals take issue with.

[chrono]

That's not true. You're saying it won't happen.

Your argument that it isn't possible is baseless. Taking the negative position doesn't ease the burden of proof.

And laughing at the human spirit, at the ability of desire to aid in recovery is a stance most medical professionals take issue with.

You've completely failed to understand my incredibly clear explanation, for reasons I can't begin to imagine. "We don't know if it will happen" is nothing like "it won't happen." Stop assuming that my position is diametrically opposed simply because I disagreed with you, and actually read what I've patiently written out.

Edited by chrono, 12 July 2010 - 08:47 AM.

[kassem23]

I have to agree with chrono on this bobman. He clearly explained as to why the possible correlation in histological studies showing increased neurotrophic factors doesn't imply a definite repair for MDMA related damage. I don't think you should understand chronos posts as negative or against human prosperity, on the contrary, without people like chrono who live by the rules of science, i.e. post hoc ergo propter hoc (correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation).

OTOH, for people with MDMA induced brain damage I can't agree enough with the positive outlook on life attitude; the brain is highly platic, as we all know, and one should try all possible treatment options from meditation and to pharmaceuticals.

[chrono]

OTOH, for people with MDMA induced brain damage I can't agree enough with the positive outlook on life attitude; the brain is highly platic, as we all know, and one should try all possible treatment options from meditation and to pharmaceuticals.

I also couldn't agree more! I've posted suggestions in so many threads like this that I didn't even feel the need to defend myself against accusations of negativity. Neurogenesis is one of my primary interests, and there are many, many options worth trying in a situation like this (see post #5).

Personally, I don't feel like suggesting things we hope might work based on extrapolation (and risk/benefit analysis), while maintaining a strictly evidence-based understanding of what we know to work (and how), is in any way contradictory. They seem to me to complement and inform each other very neatly.

The risk I was talking about is the one someone must assess when choosing whether to use a substance like MDMA. Saying that we can definitely fix the damage it causes, without having anything like the evidence (or even understanding) to say for sure, could easily lead someone to a decision they might later regret for a very long time. With this in mind, I hope whatever discouragement I cause by refuting such statements can be forgiven.

kassem: thanks for chiming in. Even if I re-read what I've written half a dozen times, I still feel like I must be crazy sometimes

[arvcondor]

There has been a ton of coverage on SSRIs regenerating serotonin receptors - it's been theorized that that is a primary mechanism. I'd say try there and see what happens.

Medieval, I'm wondering if you took your ECGC in a chronic or post-acute state of your damage? Seems like it would make all the difference.

[chrono]

Animal posted in another thread like this that he thought tianpetine (stablon) could regenerate serotonin receptors, as well. Probably what he was thinking of when he asked about willingness to try pharmaceuticals, in this thread.

Probably a better option than SSRIs in most other criteria; I guess it depends on how the evidence for (re)generation compares.

[kassem23]

Animal posted in another thread like this that he thought tianpetine (stablon) could regenerate serotonin receptors, as well. Probably what he was thinking of when he asked about willingness to try pharmaceuticals, in this thread.

Probably a better option than SSRIs in most other criteria; I guess it depends on how the evidence for (re)generation compares.

What about Memantine? I read some posts suggesting it might play a role in regenerating serotonin receptors.

[Animal]

Animal posted in another thread like this that he thought tianpetine (stablon) could regenerate serotonin receptors, as well. Probably what he was thinking of when he asked about willingness to try pharmaceuticals, in this thread.

Probably a better option than SSRIs in most other criteria; I guess it depends on how the evidence for (re)generation compares.

It's a far better option then an SSRI for a myriad of reasons, not least of which is it's minimal side effect profile. The secondary MOA though which it mediates its positive effects is the up-regulation of serotonin receptors, which also includes the innervation of serotonergic neurons. Even if it doesn't regenerate the damaged neurons directly, it can make the ones you have more sensitive and therefore compensate for the deficiency you feel. Of course this would take many months of treatment to manifest, but you would feel the positive effects on mood that tianeptine has within two weeks.

[medievil]

NMDA antagonists upregulate 5HT1A (dont know about the other receptors) wheter this is relevant to therapeutic doses of memantine i dont know.

St johns worth has been found to upregulate 5HT1A and 5HT2A and can be of benefit, its also been used by humans to reverse tolerance to MDMA with succes altough the doses for this were very high, 2 weeks of treatment seemed to be sufficient.

Medieval, I'm wondering if you took your ECGC in a chronic or post-acute state of your damage?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, the RC overdose happened sometime around december last year, the cognitive trouble stayed for several months (in wich i took ashwaghanda and memantine) however after i started taking EGCG i noticed it went away and stayed away. I dont know how long it took for the EGCG to start working as i didnt really pay attention to it, just started noticing a while later.

[Ginnungagap]

NMDA antagonists upregulate 5HT1A (dont know about the other receptors) wheter this is relevant to therapeutic doses of memantine i dont know.

St johns worth has been found to upregulate 5HT1A and 5HT2A and can be of benefit, its also been used by humans to reverse tolerance to MDMA with succes altough the doses for this were very high, 2 weeks of treatment seemed to be sufficient.

Look what I found:
NMDA receptor-antagonistic properties of hyperforin, a constituent of St. John's Wort.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16936454

It's only in vitro, and I don't really know if the concetration of hyperforin used are levels that are attained by supplementing with st johns wort, but I still think its interesting.

[bernax]

i have heavily abused MDMA over the last 2 years, in combination with amphetamines cocaine and lots of other drugs. Am currently stacking 1.5 mg rhodiola roseas daily 1350 mg Bacopamonnieri 200mg ginger root extract and 1500 mg cayenne (for my heart) The rhodiola seems to work the best for me and i really recommend it!

[Flex]

Ashwaghanda (best if standarized extract)

Could be benefical too, regarding:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15711595

Be careful if You are interessted in this. Ashwaghanda is a Anticoagulant which means it thinns the blood by a distinct mechanism(for 2 weeks).
So excessive ammounts mixed with aspirine "could" be fatal.
But in contrast to aspirine, it can be reversed in high ammounts by Vitamin k.
Maybe? a whole vial of this http://www.docsimon....navit-drops-5ml is needed

Edited by Flex, 30 December 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[Blanker]

Anyone notice that excitoxicity of SSRIs can also cause these deficits and if at all possible best remedies to reverse possible damages incurred, Thanks for the wealth of information.