12 replies to this topic

[brokenportal]

Now besides the undeniability of the premise of the reason why we should think we can achieve indefinite life extension, that “We don’t have to know we can get there to go there, but we do have to go there to get there.” there is even more undeniable reason to support this cause. Simply put, our bodies are cellular machines composed of mechanisms. Mechanisms are subject to intervention. Many afflictions of cellular mechanisms can already be treated. Aging, that current main obstacle, can be tackled from a few angles, one of which is the set of 7 (known) cellular afflictions that comprise it.

These few sentences illustrate why we can intervene in aging and they’re important so I will repeat them:

- Our bodies are cellular machines composed of mechanisms.
- Mechanisms are subject to intervention.
- Many afflictions of cellular mechanisms can already be treated.
- Aging, that current main obstacle, can be tackled from a few angles,

Even if we are too irresponsible to accept the MILE premise, we can see that if we can intervene, we can find a cure. If we can find a cure, then we can live indefinitely. Since we can live indefinitely, we have no excuses left, there is no choice left but to get a move on right now, like our asses were on fire and our lives depended on it.

These 7 forms of mortal, accumulating, cellular level damage that everybody is born with are not magical, or untouchable, or other worldly, or invisible, or anything like that. Many diseases that are like those forms of damage already had treatments that have had success to varying degrees, from help with symptoms, to remission, to eradication and full cure.

We can circumvent the damage by working with our genes, we can work to clean it up, we can try to prevent the cellular mechanisms from lying it down; there are many potential ways we can intervene.

As an example, one of the 7 forms of cellular damage that kills us is the malfunction of our lysosomes. There are certain things that lysosomes don’t digest, like a vacuum that doesn’t pick up pennies and bread ties and rocks. After a while, if you don’t pick those up, your carpet is going to be piled high with pennies and bread ties and rocks. Lysosomal storage diseases that are genetic, that have many of the same characteristics as those in aging, have already been successfully researched and can now be treated. The proof in the pudding is right there. It’s not a matter of can we do this?; it’s a matter of can we do this in our lifetimes?.

What this also means is that, as the MILE premise illustrates, we are in a blizzard, and not only do we know we have to try to get out, we already know there is a way out. We just have to be successful in completing the trek on time now.

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The answer to getting it done in our lifetimes depends on how much support the movement for indefinite life extension gets asap. The research happens as fast as we all collectively go to support it. That means this cause depends on you. 1 person can do 1 years worth of work in 1 year but 1 million people can do 1 million years worth of work in 1 year. The movement for indefinite life extension is always recruiting. Contact me and I can help you get in where you want to fit in.

Edited by brokenportal, 24 October 2011 - 10:49 PM.

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[Elus]

A word of caution.

1) Try not to oversimplify what is going to be a monumental task. If we knew the details about fixing the 7 causes of damage listed by Aubrey de Grey, we would be in great shape. The truth is, we still have a long road ahead of us. As of right now, we have a limited understanding of how we can address these types of cellular damage precisely; we only have a vague idea.

2) While no further alternative forms of aging damage have been discovered in a while, aside from the ones posited by SENS, there may still be more types of damage that have not been accounted for. Furthermore, we do not know exactly how much each type of damage contributes to the aging process. Perhaps one of the 7 causes of aging contributes 80% to the aging process, while the other 6 contribute 20%. The truth that is we have much to understand about our cells before we can begin tackle those types of problems.

3) Take the scientific and analytical approach when looking at SENS. You seem to overlook the notion that SENS is highly experimental in nature, and that our bodies are extraordinarily complex. While we may not need a full understanding of metabolism to understand aging damage, it would certainly be useful to know about metabolic processes before even beginning to try to repair aging damage. There is so much uncertainty in the air right now, and rightly so. Don't be so sure that SENS will work; rather, you should admit that this seems to be the most promising approach, and is thus worth investing in currently. SENS and the rest of science will evolve drastically in the coming years; I have no doubt that the fight against aging will be redefined in ways that SENS hasn't even predicted yet.

I'll end on a positive note. I believe that the exponential progress of technology is on our side. If we get enough money invested into science, and change the public's outlook on the viability of tackling aging, we will see profound implications. Investing will greatly increase in such research, creating a positive feedback loop which will accelerate the process.

I'll make a post about the cancer research I've been doing soon, and how I've been trying to contribute to all of this. I've gotten some phenomenal results.

Edited by Elus Efelier, 22 May 2010 - 07:34 AM.

[N.T.M.]

It is important to remember that we do not need a full understanding of the underlying mechanisms just to create therapies to reverse the net damage. You seem to be alluding to that.

[brokenportal]

The methods are complicated but the principle is simple, our bodies are machines and we can wrap our minds and our tools around machines.

That’s right, SENS may completely fail. This is about aging in general. I list sens as one of the main sources on this. As an example, lysosome malfunction because of lipofuscin build up was a reality before SENS said it was. Whether SENS, or another approach stops lipofuscin from helping to kill us it has to get done.

Also, remember that I write “7 (known)”, because that’s right, as you say, that there could be more or less.

The possible methods to stopping cellular damage from killing us are numerous, I agree, most of us agree, and that’s why I write “why we can intervene in aging” rather than why we can engineer it away with SENS specifically. I say that Ending Aging is a main place to read about it because it is a main place to read about it.

and change the public's outlook on the viability of tackling aging

You seem to be on the same page as me. That’s what this topic is about. A lot of people think that tackling aging is not viable. People have to start absorbing the reality that it is. This is just one simple topic. If somebody wants to extrapolate on the topic, then I hope they do, because we need the concept to be thought about more prevailantly. There are countless people that come here all the time that still think that aging is some sort of invisible, other worldly, magical, unknowable thing.

[JLL]

I agree with the OP -- we can worry later about the details of how difficult SENS will be, but at the moment, people still think the human body is some kind of magical thing that dies because nature says so. Even to make people think of humans as machines that can be fixed would be a huge step.

[chris w]

people still think the human body is some kind of magical thing that dies because nature says so. Even to make people think of humans as machines that can be fixed would be a huge step.

Exactly, everyone seems to have this notion, that even a perfectly healthy ( on cellular level ) organism will inevitably just fall down one second, because of reaching some kind of metaphisical deadline, it's annoying how people apply some mysterious, religion derived "laws of universe" to something that has nothing to do with this. Unfortunately the concept of immortality has been hijacked by religion in the begining, so it's hard to make them think in strictly materialistic terms about it, even if a person is religiously indifferent, or even an active atheist, still has a bias towards this, that Death is some intentional, person - like force, that's after us no matter what, and not just failure of the organism to mantain homeostasis.

Edited by chris w, 22 May 2010 - 12:26 PM.

[Kolos]

I agree with the OP -- we can worry later about the details of how difficult SENS will be, but at the moment, people still think the human body is some kind of magical thing that dies because nature says so. Even to make people think of humans as machines that can be fixed would be a huge step.

I don't think people would like the idea. Word "machine" attributed to human usually have some negative connotations and if you try to convince them that in fact they are machines, they might think you want to dehumanize them. It would be good just to take the magic away.

[Elus]

I agree with the OP -- we can worry later about the details of how difficult SENS will be, but at the moment, people still think the human body is some kind of magical thing that dies because nature says so. Even to make people think of humans as machines that can be fixed would be a huge step.

I don't think people would like the idea. Word "machine" attributed to human usually have some negative connotations and if you try to convince them that in fact they are machines, they might think you want to dehumanize them. It would be good just to take the magic away.

I think rather than calling the human body a machine (Which it is), it would be better to emphasize the fact that it works in a structured and orderly way, and that we are getting closer and closer to being able to debug our cellular blueprints. I don't know, maybe that's just saying it works like a machine as well - in a more roundabout way.

It is important to remember that we do not need a full understanding of the underlying mechanisms just to create therapies to reverse the net damage. You seem to be alluding to that

Yes, I agree that we do not need to understand metabolism completely. However, using something like gene therapy for a therapeutic effect will require increased metabolic understanding because tinkering with genes can cause cancer. My point is that there is a threshold understanding of metabolism that we need to reach (And I think we might be able to reach it soon) before we can begin applying actual therapies and avoid the nasty side effects in the process.

[Kolos]

I think rather than calling the human body a machine (Which it is), it would be better to emphasize the fact that it works in a structured and orderly way, and that we are getting closer and closer to being able to debug our cellular blueprints. I don't know, maybe that's just saying it works like a machine as well - in a more roundabout way.

Or perhaps it's the machine that works like a human body, after all biological organism are much older than non-biological that we migh eventually become.

Anyway I kinda take back part of my previous comment:

It would be good just to take the magic away.

When you think about it most of this "magic" is associated with healing rather than death.
People believe theres something "mystical" about the body partially because of religious and cultural reasons that might be quite incompatible with life extension but they also want to believe there is always some hope... Imagine what can you say to a terminally ill patient: "Your body is like a machine but unfortunately with our current knowledge we can't fix you sorry" So I say take it away but only when we don't need it anymore.

Edited by Kolos, 23 May 2010 - 10:55 PM.

[N.T.M.]

It is important to remember that we do not need a full understanding of the underlying mechanisms just to create therapies to reverse the net damage. You seem to be alluding to that

Yes, I agree that we do not need to understand metabolism completely. However, using something like gene therapy for a therapeutic effect will require increased metabolic understanding because tinkering with genes can cause cancer. My point is that there is a threshold understanding of metabolism that we need to reach (And I think we might be able to reach it soon) before we can begin applying actual therapies and avoid the nasty side effects in the process.

I agree.

[brokenportal]

When you think about it most of this "magic" is associated with healing rather than death.
People believe theres something "mystical" about the body partially because of religious and cultural reasons that might be quite incompatible with life extension but they also want to believe there is always some hope... Imagine what can you say to a terminally ill patient: "Your body is like a machine but unfortunately with our current knowledge we can't fix you sorry" So I say take it away but only when we don't need it anymore.

Right, its not mystical any more, but we are still in that transitional period where people dont know that, and or arent paying attention, and or havent been told seriously enough about what is going on yet. We need to spread topics like this, concepts like this, remember it, talk about it, and especially spread the book Ending Aging. Its not the end all book, but its the only good intro book on the realities of the potential for the end of aging there is right now. Its a great intro into the lifting of the veil that suggests aging might be mystical, other worldly, etc..., and may even be the end all in itself.

SCOD works too, spread SCOD, but Ending Aging is much more to the point.

[brokenportal]

Im adjusting this topic for some other things Im working with that link up to it, so Im storing the old copy of it here.

Even in times that there wasnt any science, the will of humankind furiously searched and worked for a way to have indefinite life extension. In our dead ends and desperation we created a lot of tales to try to convince ourselves that it was reality. We also kept innovating, kept creating and pushing forward. We didnt know we could get here, but we had to keep moving to get here and thats what we did, and now we are here, science and technology are here.


Our bodies are cellular machines composed of mechanisms. Mechanisms are subject to intervention. Many afflictions of cellular mechanisms can already be treated. One of the main obstacles to indefinite life extension, aging, is a set of 7 (known) cellular afflictions. This illustrates why we can intervene in aging. If we can intervene in it, we can find a cure. If we can find a cure, then we can live indefinitely. Since we can live indefinitely, we have to get a move on right now, like our shot at existence were on fire and our lives depended on it.

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There are 7 known forms of mortal, cellular level damage that everybody is born with. Those 7 things are not magical, or untouchable, or other worldly, or invisible, or anything like that. Beyond that, diseases that are like those forms of damage already have treatments that have had success to varying degrees, from help with symptoms, to remission, to eradication and full cure.

An example of one of the 7 forms of cellular damage that kills us is the malfunction of our lysosomes. There are certain things that lysosomes don’t digest, like a vacuum that doesn’t pick up pennies and bread ties and rocks. After a while, if you don’t pick those up, your carpet is going to be piled high with pennies and bread ties and rocks. Lysosomal storage diseases that are genetic, that have many of the same characteristics as those in aging, have already been successfully researched and can now be treated. The proof in the pudding is right there. It’s not a matter of can we do this, it’s a matter of can we get it done in our lifetimes.

The answer to getting it done in our lifetimes depends on how much support the movement for indefinite life extension gets asap. The research happens as fast as we all collectively go to support it. That means this cause depends on you. 1 person can do 1 years worth of work in 1 year but 1 million people can do 1 million years worth of work in 1 year. The movement for indefinite life extension is always recruiting. Sign up today.

 imminst_puzzle.png   256.31KB   4 downloads

A main place to read about the details of all 7 is in the book Ending Aging, by Aubrey de Grey, with Michael Rae. The book is written in laymen’s terms, so the concepts are completely accessible to a person with an average knowledge of biology.

Below is a link to a list of every disease, many are treatable, indicated in each individual link with in. We are in the process of extracting a sample list.

http://www.medicinen...ons/alpha_a.htm

[Droplet]

On the topic of aging diseases, found this rather sad article: http://www.telegraph...teoporosis.html

It causes suffering and misery yet people seem so happy to accept it.