110 replies to this topic

[opales]

Here's my understanding:
o Organic plant foods are not sprayed with chemicals that might reduce phyto-nutrient quality.
o Organic plant foods are more often grown in soils that are more properly rotated and kept nutrient complete.  This translates into higher quality phyto-nutrients.
o Organic foods, overall, are less processed, and processing generally reduces nutrient quality.

Have not read any studies regarding phytonutrients (don't know if there is any), but I am guessing same applies to them as to vitamins or minerals. The claim that depleted soil in conventional farming leads to lowered nutritional value is usually evidenced by the *slight* decrease in some vitamins from vegetables since 1950. However, it is not the method of farming that is the cause for (neglibly) lowered vitamin content, but rather the use of higher yielding varieties.

http://www.jacn.org/...stract/23/6/669

Conclusions:We suggest that any real declines are generally most easily explained by changes in cultivated varieties between 1950 and 1999, in which there may be trade-offs between yield and nutrient content

Note that the above study is often used as evidence to justify the "organic movement", yet conveniently disregarding the authors actual conclusions.

I am pretty sure there is not any respectable publication showing any benefits from organic farming nutrition vice.

It maybe that non-processed organic food has higher nutrition content than processed non-organic, but that is not really a fair comparison. You could get the same nutrients from buying non-processed non-organic food, for half the price probably.

[mirian]

Organic does have more antioxidant power. You are what you eat. What makes an animals organic ? Organic feed for at least one year. Read the Feb. or March 2006 issue of Consumer Reports magazine. They recommend anything from animals be organic (meat, cheese, whey, etc)

They said although poultry doesn't have hormones by federal law they do still have antiobiotics which when you ingest it, in essence, your then taking antibiotics increasing the prevalance of antibiotic resistance. CR's also found that high levels of various toxins in one's urine till five days later on an organic regimen. They said baby food should also always be organic along with highly pesticide foods like apples.

For example, it's a proven fact that organic ketchup has more lycopene than conventional ketchup.

Check the prices at Whole Foods the prices on Organic have plummeted vs years back. Not that much more cost for organic fruits and veggies vs conventional. Even, Wal-Mart and Sam's Club pledge to now go organic since they know it's
better for the environment and one's health.

Just like the perfect food being canned Wild Alaskan Red sockeye slamon. This salmon has the highest natural source of calcium that doesn't involve dairy since the soft bones are edible.

Alaskan Sockeye Salmon has naturally occuring amountsd of DMAE for the brain, only of the very few sources of the antioxidant now proven to lower CRP being Astaxanthin, and DHA being the most unsaturated fat making up almost half of the human brain and women are now advised to get 300mg daily while pregnant. It's also very low in mercury vs canned tuna. Wild pacific salmon are like organic, and farmed salmon are like conventional loaded with PCB's. Unlike beat carotene Astaxathin can cross the BBB (blood brain barrier) and has UV protective qualities
thought to possible act as a sunglasses for the eyes, and sunscreen for the skin. This is part of why Wrinkle Cure Dr. Perricone recommends it. I personally take 8mg daily. To get about 8 mg of Astaxanthin from food you'd have to eat at least half a pound daily of Wild Alaskan red sockeye salmon. It has more Astaxanthin that pink salmon hence the increased redness color.

It's a proven fact conventional farmers have a much higher cancer risk due to their
pesticide exposure.

[mirian]

Pushing snake oil ? Dr. Sherry Rogers has no financial motive to mislead unlike Bill Sardi whom you believe as he sells you Longevinex.

No, the pesticides don't necessarily drain the nutrients. Just as organic animals are given organic feed, so are fruits and veggies.

Snake oil is colloidal silver many fools out wating their money on this:

DrWeil.com

Question:

What is colloidal silver? Is this something you
recommend?

Answer:

Colloidal silver is a solution of silver particles
suspended in liquid. It has been widely promoted as a
cure-all. I’ve heard claims that it is an alternative
to antibiotics, a cancer preventive, and a treatment
for everything from ear infections to tuberculosis,
shingles and AIDS. Promoters claim that colloidal
silver can extend life and remedy mineral deficiencies
that lead to a weakened immune system.

Nonsense. These claims are unproven. The human body
has absolutely no need for silver. Contrary to claims
made for it, colloidal silver is not a substitute for
antibiotics, or any other medications. It is true that
silver is an effective germicide, with limited
usefulness in medicine. A problem with it is that it
is not harmless. Silver can accumulate in the body and
lead to a disfiguring skin condition called argyria,
which causes bluish-gray skin pigmentation, especially
around the nose and mouth, a color change that cannot
be reversed. The appearance of people with this
condition has been likened to that of corpses come
suddenly to life. Long-term use of oral silver
products has also led to neurological problems
including seizures, as well as kidney damage, stomach
distress, headaches, fatigue and skin irritation. It
can also interfere with the absorption of some drugs
including tetracycline antibiotics and thyroid hormone
supplements.

In 1999 the FDA banned the sale of all
over-the-counter drugs containing colloidal silver and
silver salts on the grounds that these compounds
haven’t been recognized as safe. The ban doesn’t apply
to dietary supplements containing colloidal silver
because the FDA has no jurisdiction over such
products, unless there are safety issues. However, in
some cases the FDA and FTC have taken action against
marketers who claim that their colloidal silver
products can treat, cure or prevent disease.

My advice? Beware and don’t waste your money.

Andrew Weil, M.D.

[mirian]

One of many requirements for a food to be organic is it must be non-gmo.

Many foods you think are conventional aren't even that they are genetically modified (gmo) from a lab. I don't feel like being a lab rat. Since, they don't know
yet the long term consequences just like artificial sweetners. Safe and natural alternatives to sugar are xylitol (human body makes up to 15 grams daily plus Xylitol is a natural substance found in fibrous vegetables and fruit) but don't OD taking more than around 2 tablespoons daily due to diarrhea being the only side effect in excess or the safe herb stevia although taste does very by brand. Keep xylitiol away from animals though it causes their blood sugar levels to plummet.

A brand of xylitol that tastes good (as good if not better than sugar) that's non-gmo from birch trees is:

http://www.emeraldforestxylitol.com/

Xylitol doesn't use insulin so it's safe by even diabetics. Plus, since xylitol is a 5 carbon sugar unlike sugars 6 carbons it has true antibacterial properties that doesn't have resistance issues like antibiotics. Many dentists know it has proven to prevent cavities. That's now why some sugarless gums have some in it now but usually with artificial sweetners.

[Mind]

First of all, let me apologize for taking the thread off-topic. I just thought the 2.5 figure was not a solid fact, and I would be interested to see some research. Take an orange for example. If non-organic oranges had 2.5 times less vitamin C there would be an extreme difference in taste between them and organic varieties. I haven't noticed such a difference.

A couple points:
GMO crops can be grown organically. In fact almost every single thing we eat (that is grown on a farm) has been genetically modified through the course of human history. We used to use selective breeding/pollenation. Now we do it in a laboratory. Does that automatically make it "evil". I don't think so.

Dukenukem: Organic foods can also be grown in poor soil. There is no gaurantee it comes from a "top-notch" farm.

My purpose is not to rag on organic food, so much as to say non-organic and gmo foods do not cause instant death. That seems to be the hyperbole sometimes. If I was rich, I am sure I would eat more organic foods (and take more supps), but I would also not be afraid to eat organically grown gmo foods, or non-organic foods. My risk tolerance is a little higher than some.

[mirian]

Wasn't saying necessarily organic has higher ORAC due to more viamin C or anything other vitmains or minerals. What gives a fruit or veggie high ORAC scores are it's naturally occurring phytonutrients. The National Cancer Institute recommends at least 9 servings of fruits and veggies being still just about 3,150 ORAC according to them. I do like Purity's Perfect Multi Super Greens because it has 5,000+ ORAC:

http://store.yahoo.c...upergreens.html

The same amount Wrinkle Cure Dr. Perricone recommends at least 5,000 ORAC daily on page 40 in his 2004 book Perricone Promise.

For example, red apples contain quercetin in their skin. Quercetin has an ORAC rating of 10,900 TE/g, but the highest yet known has a whopping 27,000 ORAC TE/g being Hydroxytyrosol from olive fruit juice and they use Organically grown olives being a CreAgri Inc patent:

http://store.yahoo.c.../olivenol1.html

Again, Nature's Way uses their same patent but cheaper at:

http://store.yahoo.c...ivefruitnw.html



Actually, to be "USDA certified" organic one of many requirements id that it must be non-gmo:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/Q&A.html

which states in part:

Q: I know organic agriculture prohibits the use of GMOs, but do the guidelines allow for a small amount of contamination?

A: As GMO contamination of organic crops relates to genetic drift, the Preamble to the National Organic Program regulations, Applicability, Clarifications (1) Genetic Drift, states.......

Japan is the longest living country on average and GM Foods Recalled in Japan:

http://www.mercola.c...food_recall.htm

Genetically Altered Plants Might Alter You:

http://www.mercola.c...ered_plants.htm

Genetically Modified Crops Worry Some Scientists:

http://www.mercola.c..._scientists.htm

Health Risks of Genetically Modified Foods:

http://www.mercola.c...ified_foods.htm


Even,


http://store.yahoo.c.../olivenol1.html


Now back to Longevinex. Even, Greenpower being Europe's leading distributor of health products made Bill Sardi change Longevinex to a capsule not containing any controversial titanium dioxide probably from health warnings like this:

http://caprofile.net...IDEwarning.html

which states:

"Your nutritional supplement manufacturer may be using titanium dioxide additive in its products like CoQ10, CLA, perilla oil and others. Some scientists are concerned about the extremely 'sticky' nature of Ti O2; it may very well adhere to the walls of blood vessels and thus contribute to coronary heart disease. It is advisable to avoid the ingestion of titanium dioxide. All health products containing potentially dangerous additives should be recalled immediately." Dr. E.K. Schandl

[mirian]

Oh, BTW here's a link on organic apples:

http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA359516/

which states:

Of the eight types of apples studied, the two that provide the most antioxidants are the Red Delicious and Northern Spy, with Ida Red coming in third. The researchers found that while Northern Spy apples had fewer polyphenols in the skin than Red Delicious, they had twice as much in their flesh.

Whatever types of apple you prefer, I urge you to look for organically grown ones. If you can’t find organic varieties, peel the apples you do eat. It is better to miss out on some antioxidants than to consume residues of pesticides. You’ll get plenty of antioxidants if you include a variety of fresh fruits and vegetables in your diet.

[mirian]

Here's a Dr. Weil link dated July 12, 2005:

http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA326613/

Which states:

"The biggest disadvantage is that many vitamins – particularly vitamin C – begin to break down upon exposure to air, so in some cases, the potency of liquid vitamins may begin to wane once you open the bottle – or sooner if they aren't well manufactured."


This sounds a lot like Bill Sardi about a wine bottle. But, like Dr. Weil points out the degrading is due to its susceptibily being in liquid form. Basically, Longevinex needs to be airtight because it's in liquid form like red wine. Not because the trans resveratrol molecule is so easily changed to cis resveratrol by light, heat, or oxygen. It is easily converted but in liquid form not a powdered form.

Proof of this is Product B is conventionally made with dry powder inside a capsule, and has about the same level of trans resveratrol as Longevinex. Even, more compared to one of the three Longevinex lot B is only 32.27mg vs Product B 35.54mg

I have an article of Dr. Weil's Feb. 2006 newsletter Self Healing that says:

Q: Are liquid vitamins better than pills forms ?

A: "In my opinion, the only real advantage of liquid vitamins is for those who have difficulty swallowing pills, like elderly people or children. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend them in place of vitamin tablets or capsules as they are typically more expensive and, despite manufacturers' claims, they're not better absorbed or more potent. Vitamin pills might also have a longer shelf life than liquid forms."

Remind you any of Longevinex's claims being liquid and highly absorbable ?

[DukeNukem]

Dukenukem: Organic foods can also be grown in poor soil. There is no gaurantee it comes from a "top-notch" farm.

True, but from my personal reading and research, it's clear that organic farmers are more ecologically aware, and use less demanding farming methods (referring to better crop rotating, and other soil maintenance methods), that in turn increase [edit: I originally said "reduce" rather than "increase" here -- whoops!] the nutrient content of their foods. This may not be the case 100% of the time, but I'd bet the farm that, in most cases, organic farmers are more careful with soil quality than conventional farmers.

And in any case, the far, far more important issue with organic food is avoiding the chemicals that conventional farmers use. This is the single reason I buy organic.

GMO foods is an entirely separate issue, and isn't really related to organic or convention foods. If asked to comment on GMO foods, I'd say I prefer to avoid them, but I find it more difficult to buy non-GMO plant foods than organic plant foods.

Edited by dukenukem, 10 April 2006 - 02:34 PM.

[zoolander]

There are studies

Influence of organic versus conventional agricultural practice on the antioxidant microconstituent content of tomatoes and derived purees; consequences on antioxidant plasma status in humans.

Caris-Veyrat C, Amiot MJ, Tyssandier V, Grasselly D, Buret M, Mikolajczak M, Guilland JC, Bouteloup-Demange C, Borel P.

UMR A408 INRA-Universite d'Avignon et des Pays du Vaucluse, Securite et Qualite des Produits d'Origine Vegetale, INRA Domaine Saint Paul, Site Agroparc, 84914 Avignon Cedex 9, France. caris@avignon.inra.fr

The present study aims first to compare the antioxidant microconstituent contents between organically and conventionally grown tomatoes and, second, to evaluate whether the consumption of purees made of these tomatoes can differently affect the plasma levels of antioxidant microconstituents in humans. When results were expressed as fresh matter, organic tomatoes had higher vitamin C, carotenoids, and polyphenol contents (except for chlorogenic acid) than conventional tomatoes. When results were expressed as dry matter, no significant difference was found for lycopene and naringenin. In tomato purees, no difference in carotenoid content was found between the two modes of culture, whereas the concentrations of vitamin C and polyphenols remained higher in purees made out of organic tomatoes. For the nutritional intervention, no significant difference (after 3 weeks of consumption of 96 g/day of tomato puree) was found between the two purees with regard to their ability to affect the plasma levels of the two major antioxidants, vitamin C and lycopene. Copyright 2004 American Chemical Society

PMID: 15479014 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

and from what I have seen in the paper, nothing that would bias the results i.e. industry involvement

In conclusion, this study showed that organic cultivation can provide tomatoes and tomato-derived products with significantly higher contents of antioxidant microconstituents. However, it appeared to be difficult to get a beneficial effect with the consumption of only one organic food product, in regard to the antioxidant microconstituent content. Further human intervention studies need to be conducted with a diet richer in organic food products.

If you want to have a full read of this paper PM me

[mrak1979]

What ratio of lecithin, quercetin, and resveratrol is recommended?

[opales]

There are studies

Influence of organic versus conventional agricultural practice on the antioxidant microconstituent content of tomatoes and derived purees; consequences on antioxidant plasma status in humans.

Caris-Veyrat C, Amiot MJ, Tyssandier V, Grasselly D, Buret M, Mikolajczak M, Guilland JC, Bouteloup-Demange C, Borel P.

UMR A408 INRA-Universite d'Avignon et des Pays du Vaucluse, Securite et Qualite des Produits d'Origine Vegetale, INRA Domaine Saint Paul, Site Agroparc, 84914 Avignon Cedex 9, France. caris@avignon.inra.fr

The present study aims first to compare the antioxidant microconstituent contents between organically and conventionally grown tomatoes and, second, to evaluate whether the consumption of purees made of these tomatoes can differently affect the plasma levels of antioxidant microconstituents in humans. When results were expressed as fresh matter, organic tomatoes had higher vitamin C, carotenoids, and polyphenol contents (except for chlorogenic acid) than conventional tomatoes. When results were expressed as dry matter, no significant difference was found for lycopene and naringenin. In tomato purees, no difference in carotenoid content was found between the two modes of culture, whereas the concentrations of vitamin C and polyphenols remained higher in purees made out of organic tomatoes. For the nutritional intervention, no significant difference (after 3 weeks of consumption of 96 g/day of tomato puree) was found between the two purees with regard to their ability to affect the plasma levels of the two major antioxidants, vitamin C and lycopene. Copyright 2004 American Chemical Society

PMID: 15479014 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

and from what I have seen in the paper, nothing that would bias the results i.e. industry involvement

If you want to have a full read of this paper PM me

Interesting. BTW, did they use the same varieties or not?

Actually more important question is whether this difference would matter. For example, Re:vitamin C, don't know about US but here they put that stuff in everything, it's pretty hard to avoid.

[mirian]

I take one 500mg Jarrow Formulas Quercetin capsule per every two Country Life Resveratrol Plus Vcaps.

On Lecithin, I'd say one 1,200mg Jarrow Formulas PC 35 softgel per dosing. For example, in a single dosing three times daily taking:

1. One 500mg Jarrow (citrus-fee & non-gmo material source) Quercetin capsule

2. One 1,200mg Jarrow (non-gmo material source) PC 35 Lecithin softgel

3. Two 100mg Country Life Resveratrol Plus Vcaps

4. One 500mg Swanson's Supreme C capsule

Edited by mirian, 13 June 2007 - 08:05 AM.

[shantyhag]

Hi, first post here, but may I say that I've been incredibly impressed by the academic nature of these forums. Claims made must be supported, arguments are made intelligently. Nice.

My question, and perhaps this is addressed elsewhere-- please feel free to direct me to the proper forum if this is not it-- is related to the efficacy experienced by those of you already supplementing with resveratrol. Many of you seem to go to great lengths to adhere to very specific regiments of Quercetin and resveratrol. What benefits have you documented? Has anyone gone to the trouble of having a physical before and after beginning supplementation? What were the blood work results?

My feeling, shared by many, is that Dr. Sinclair must know something he's not sharing if he, his parents, wife and staff are supplementing with Longevinex. Surely a group as seemingly intelligent as this one has someone that has documented at least short term anecdotal results.

Thank you.

[VP.]

Has anyone gone to the trouble of having a physical before and after beginning supplementation? What were the blood work results?

The long post at the bottom of the page has links to extensive blood work and regimens. Welcome, look around and good health!

http://www.imminst.o...=0

[rapier]

An article the March 2007 Men's Journal has a chart(page 56) that assesses resveratrol supplement potency using the number of glasses of red wine per unit/pill/caspsule. The highest supplement shown was NSI with 37.5 mg per capsule as equal to 169 glasses of red wine. It mentions Longevinex is planning a 100 mg formula.

[curious_sle]

Actually Longevinex is selling their 100mg ( +IP6 +lecithin) product now.

[Brainbox]

I could understand the rationale behind adding IP6 to a product like this, but lecitin?

[tintinet]

They are, apparently, unloading the old version on those who are part of the automatic order/subscription program for Longevinex.

How sweet or them! This underhanded maneuver makes me think so much more warmly of them!

[Shepard]

I could understand the rationale behind adding IP6 to a product like this, but lecitin?

The reasoning is all laid out in Sardi's book, The Red Wine Pill. I can't remember the exact explanation off the top of my head, though.

[tintinet]

I could understand the rationale behind adding IP6 to a product like this, but lecitin?

From the Longevinex website:

http://www.longevine...io-Availability



"Additionally, lecithin has been found to enhance the oral absorption of polyphenols like quercetin and resveratrol. [J Agriculture Food Chemistry 13; 50:1706-12, 2002] Following this science, Longevinex®?, a proprietary red wine pill, was the first to provide quercetin and lecithin with resveratrol in an airtight-sealed dietary supplement.*"

[makoss]

I can't imagine how the Men's Journal article assessed that NSI's Resveratrol equals 169 glasses of red wine. According to NSI, just one of their Longevatrol capsules provides the equivalent of 15 glasses. This is stated in their supplement catalog. A big overstatement by the journal or just bad proofreading.

[VP.]

I can't imagine how the Men's Journal article assessed that NSI's Resveratrol equals 169 glasses of red wine. According to NSI, just one of their Longevatrol capsules provides the equivalent of 15 glasses. This is stated in their supplement catalog. A big overstatement by the journal or just bad proofreading.

It all depends what type of wine you are drinking. You could be getting as low as .06 mg/L of RSV from some Pinot Noir or as much as 31.9 mg/L from muscadine table wines.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Resveratrol

I personally wash down my Orchid powder RSV with some Duplin Scuppernong. http://www.duplinwinery.com/ourwines/

Of all grapes, the muscadine contained the highest level of resveratrol—the substance in red wines that produces a variety of health benefits (for instance, Duplin’s Scuppernong Blush contains 74.45 Resveratrol Parts Per Million, according to a Campbell University study, and a Bordeaux from France 28.0 PPM.)  As a result, Duplin sales have increased from approximately 15,000 cases in 1995 to nearly 175,000 in 2005. 

http://www.northcaro...pedia/124/entry

[cellfighter]

LEF claims their new one is the best.

[Shepard]

LEF claims their new one is the best.

Does that surprise you?

[valjean]

Stability of Resveratrol:

Reference: http://www.oeaz.at/z...006rotwein.html

---snip ---
Stabilität
Resveratrol zeichnet sich durch eine hohe Stabilität aus. Demgegenüber gibt es fälschlicherweise aus Gründen des Marketing die Behauptung, dass es sich bei Resveratrol um eine flüchtige und oxidationsempfindliche Verbindung handelt. Dies ist chemisch schlichtweg falsch.
Trans-Resveratrol weist einen Schmelzpunkt von 260°C und Siedepunkt von 489°C auf. Von schwerflüchtigen Verbindungen spricht man ab einem Dampfdruck von kleiner als 0,1 Pascal, Substanzen ab 70 Pascal sind als gut flüchtig einzustufen. Mit einem Dampfdruck von 4,5 x 10-8 liegt Resveratrol beträchtlich darunter. Mit zunehmendem Molekulargewicht (dimere und oligomere Resveratrole) nimmt der Dampfdruck sogar noch weiter ab.
Zudem ergibt sich nach 24stündigem Erhitzen eines Rotweins unter Rückfluss ein gleichbleibender Gehalt an trans-Resveratrol. Dies zeigt, dass diese Verbindung sogar unter extremen Bedingungen wie langem Kochen und Luftoxidation noch stabil und nicht flüchtig ist.

-- snip --
The essential message is that trans-resveratrol remains stable after
24 Hours of heating red wine condensing re-heating etc. pp. I think
the man Mag. pharm. Dr. Albert KompekMag. pharm. Dr. Albert Kompek)
who conduct this test in his laboratory has no relationship to any of
the supplement makers mentioned here ...

[curious_sle]

i'd second that based on the quoted text alone :-). Does anyone require a full translation? (i'm a nativ german speaker so...)

[shadowrun]

On this forum the post topic entitled "500 mg Resveratrol club"

Quercitin may negatively affect absorpbtion of Resveratrol

I assume that would preclude Longenevix Resveratrol from being the best

Heres the link -
http://www.imminst.o...6&t=14124&st=20

[health_nutty]

i'd second that based on the quoted text alone :-). Does anyone require a full translation? (i'm a nativ german speaker so...)

Yes, if you could translate I would really appreciate it.

[tom a]

shadowrun, as I have read that thread on the topic of combining quercetin and resveratrol, the situation is actually quite murky.

As best I can make out, it's plausible that combining resv with quercetin has the effect of cancelling the positive properties of resveratrol. But it's also quite plausible that it goes in the other direction, and that quercetin enhances the effect of resveratrol. Trouble is, of course, we don't know which is actually true.

While it's likely true that the metabolites of quercetin inhibit the activation of the Sirt1 gene, it does so at most only "slightly". And quercetin apparently DOES allow more pure resveratrol to get into the bloodstream. Given that there's only 25mg of quercetin in a Longevenix pill, and 100mg of resveratrol, which effect wins out, the effect of the quercetin metabolites, or that of the resveratrol? I doubt that anybody really knows the answer to this question.

There is also a study that shows that quercetin in isolation lowers the life span of mice, but seems to extend it when combined with certain flavonoids. Is this perhaps because those flavonids are getting into the bloodstream more effectively because of the quercetin?

Then there's the apparent fact that human beings consume between 25-50mg a day in quercetin in any case from other sources. Could the extra 25mg in a Longevenix pill really alter things for the worse?

And then you also have the single case of Paul McGlothin, who reported significant presumably positive changes in body temp, glucose levels, etc. upon taking Longevenix (the 40mg form, I'd expect).

Put it all together, I'd guess the case for the Longevenix formulation is not a bad one -- but it nonetheless it seems inescapably murky at this time.