54 replies to this topic

[chrono]

Is there any evidence to suggest that Ashwagandha should be cycled?

I saw nothing to suggest that, so far. Still have a lot of full texts to get, though.

Since the mechanism through which it effects neurogenesis isn't well-understood, there's still a possibility that it's something which may be subject to tolerance, or shouldn't be constantly used for another reason.

One of the papers in my post about neurogenesis showed that rats pre-treated with ashwagandha for 30 days enjoyed better neuroprotection than rats treated for only a week or two before injury, or treated after. Not sure if that translates to any of its other effects, but it's something.

[Thorsten3]

I have searched the internet high and low for long term success stories with this herb and I have come up with nothing. Are there any of you people out there?

I would be worried that taking something like this long term could cause tolerance and rebound anxiety.

Although i am interested in it as a nootropic.

I would be very interested in hearing from people who take ash daily and what benefits they get from it.

Edited by HyperHydrosis, 06 September 2010 - 04:46 PM.

[aLurker]

I'm looking into herbs at the moment, does anyone care to share their experience with Ash? Especially long-term and/or in combination with other herbs or supplements.

[caruga]

Taking ashwagandha with zinc and magnesium seems to give me a feeling of strength and hardiness (in mind/spirit more than physically). I also feel more sexually potent, not that I don't feel potent normally.

[JLL]

Here's a post about my experience:

Ashwagandha as a Nootropic – Experiment Update

[Thorsten3]

Here's a post about my experience:

Ashwagandha as a Nootropic – Experiment Update

Cool blog thanks for sharing

[Justchill]

Interesting..

For the users some questions:

How much ash do you take?
When do you take it?
Do you cycle it? and how?
What is your supplier?

cheers

[slothrop]

Interesting..

For the users some questions:

How much ash do you take?
When do you take it?
Do you cycle it? and how?
What is your supplier?

cheers

Hey Justchill,

Yeah, this is a good thread, hope it keeps up. My responses:

225 mg per day at 8% withanolides.

Mornings--I find it relaxing but not overly sedating, although I gather many people prefer to take it night.

Haven't taken any breaks in about 2 months. Whether cycling is preferable seems to be an open question, I'll probably cycle it informally by taking a break over vacations and periods of low workload.

Jarrow from iHerb, Sensoril extract. Mostly because it's a reputable brand, I don't know whether there is a significant difference from Now's 4.5% extract and others (dosed appropriately).

[Justchill]

And how do you feel?

[slothrop]

And how do you feel?

Slightly more relaxed overall, somewhat more sociable. I've also been sleeping better and have experienced improved dream recall. Pretty much in line with its reputation as stress-relieving. I don't know whether there are any nootropic effects, but feeling calmer does help focus.

[SuperjackDid_]

Now 'brand act like caffeine,

i feel effect like caffeine
alert,stamina improve,fucus,anxity,sex desire ,tired+depress next day when off it.

Jarrow arive tomorrow ,will try again

Edited by Teerayoot, 16 April 2011 - 03:23 PM.

[Justchill]

How is that jarrow, teerayoot

[SuperjackDid_]

How is that jarrow, teerayoot

I have reply in another post

Jarrow brand is best for me atlest i have tried for 2 brands.


It kill anxiety ,i have little drowsie but overall great

i can combine with caffeine that i off for long time

with no anxiety at all ,that great.
I have more energy ,no exhauston evening ,that never be for me(if i take caffeine).

I just to post my experience ,i found some member try post to advertize their brand with
untruth about quality and how good effect even they not.

I'm very boring to read thease post .

I will keep take this for a while and reply here for long term effect

One more thing,

for any supplement i have add ,i log and monitor they effect
becuase of i try alot of supplement ,indeed few of it have good effect

Ashwagandha i think it claim NGF on mine,i know the effect when i getup,
NGF might do well on sleep.

Edited by Teerayoot, 28 April 2011 - 01:26 PM.

[SuperjackDid_]

i'm have on Ashwagandha a few month already ,
and seem it repair my brain to some extend,

but for now i'm feel tangling ,numbness in my toe/leg /finger ,

i'm going to stop it,
but i'm really worries about Anxiety and stressful come back.

[JChief]

i'm have on Ashwagandha a few month already ,
and seem it repair my brain to some extend,

but for now i'm feel tangling ,numbness in my toe/leg /finger ,

i'm going to stop it,
but i'm really worries about Anxiety and stressful come back.

What else are you taking Nootropix?( I remember you saying piracetam made you "feel dumber than previous year" ... )

[SuperjackDid_]

Piracetam
BCAA
FishOil
Q10
VitC
NAC
VitD (day on/of)
Whey Protein


Huperzine & Grape Seed ,on occasional,without Hyperzine &Grape Seed ,i'm hard to talk or social with people

Selenium just added(for more boost glutatione)




For about tingling i'm feel month + already ,i go to doctor and he give me B Complex ,seem not help at all.

FishOil reduce tingling effect,NAC sometime help.

recently i feel tingling at morning after wake up,that i'm really worries about damaged in my brain,

I used to stop Ashwagandha ,tingling reduce but not much ,indeed i not feel all day ,just when i feel sleepy ,
i'm suspect brain require a lot of energy that i unable to supply enough.

what you think about brain has more dendrite and require more energy or it develop to cancer ?

[JChief]

Piracetam
BCAA
FishOil
Q10
VitC
NAC
VitD (day on/of)
Whey Protein


Huperzine & Grape Seed ,on occasional,without Hyperzine &Grape Seed ,i'm hard to talk or social with people

Selenium just added(for more boost glutatione)




For about tingling i'm feel month + already ,i go to doctor and he give me B Complex ,seem not help at all.

FishOil reduce tingling effect,NAC sometime help.

recently i feel tingling at morning after wake up,that i'm really worries about damaged in my brain,

I used to stop Ashwagandha ,tingling reduce but not much ,indeed i not feel all day ,just when i feel sleepy ,
i'm suspect brain require a lot of energy that i unable to supply enough.

what you think about brain has more dendrite and require more energy or it develop to cancer ?

I just wanted to clarify since it originally sounded as if the Ashwagandha might have caused the tingling. Thanks. Maybe you could try adding Uridine with that fish oil since you said it seemed to help a bit. It may help your brain even more. PQQ+Idebenone might be worth a look. Maybe even noopept too. I'd also recommend looking into Vitamin K2 to go along with that D3 you are taking as the two work well in combination and assists with calcium absorption.

Edited by JChief, 02 December 2011 - 04:55 PM.

[JChief]

Here's a post about my experience:

Ashwagandha as a Nootropic – Experiment Update

I have nothing to back this up. But, like a lot of the Swanson offerings, the NOW foods brand I'd consider the McDonald's of the supplement industry. You heard right. I question the quality compared to more expensive brands out there. Like most things in life: you get what you pay for. If costs are being cut - it's most likely at the expense of quality. Thanks for your report however.

[nupi]

Or it's simply made up by volume. NOW has much better distribution than the niche brands so their volume is likely to be much higher... While I have not ever researched it, I would assume there are significant economies of scale in this industry and most of the niche players are far from playing at scale.

In any case, I cannot truly tell much of a difference between if Jarrow's highly rated Sensoril Ashwaghanda and NOW's (note that they are approximately the same price, too). Proper standardization should eliminate most of the variety and I would expect the bigger guys to do a better job on that, on average (as far as the raw material does not all come from the exact same source anyway).

Edited by nupi, 03 December 2011 - 09:49 AM.

[JChief]

Or it's simply made up by volume. NOW has much better distribution than the niche brands so their volume is likely to be much higher... While I have not ever researched it, I would assume there are significant economies of scale in this industry and most of the niche players are far from playing at scale.

In any case, I cannot truly tell much of a difference between if Jarrow's highly rated Sensoril Ashwaghanda and NOW's (note that they are approximately the same price, too). Proper standardization should eliminate most of the variety and I would expect the bigger guys to do a better job on that, on average (as far as the raw material does not all come from the exact same source anyway).

Let me put it another way. You can get beef in most any grocery store. The big time distributors sell beef to companies like McDonalds that I don't think I want to be putting in my body. Just a hunch. I'd think if I were a "supplement industry insider" I'd be disappointed at the lack of quality and efficacy overall in the herbal supplement industry. Can't tell you how many herbs I've tried that left me feeling I was sold a pig-in-a-poke. Very few herbs save Rosavin rhodiola or Pasak Bumi tongkat ali and a few others have I noticed anything worth chatting about. You know if you want quality meat and best flavor you go to a specialty market for the best of the best. You know the things they do to meat these days? Anyway If it were me I'd go with something like this or this "Just because it passes FDA/USDA inspection doesn't make it good for you" I will always be an eternal pessimist when it comes to herbs and companies that base their product on value over quality a la McDonald's. The companies I usually feel best about do not try and pretend they have the cheapest product on the market. Yet we aren't made of money at the same time. That's why I do appreciate the fact I can get Ola Loa products from Swansons for 39% off which is the best on the web. You can save if you know what to get but overall it would seem most everybody here takes what I'd consider a lower quality product to begin with. The cost adds up though and I get that. But if I am going to put something in my body I want to have a reasonable doubt that it of the best quality I can find. Otherwise I feel I'm just wasting my time. Good health is worth it.

Edited by JChief, 03 December 2011 - 12:37 PM.

[absent minded]

can we just take glycine or spirulina or chlorella or whatever else and put our minds to rest about the issue with the toxic metals accumulator?

Edited by Raizy, 04 December 2011 - 03:46 PM.

[canz]

I tried taking ashwaghanda during the day at 225mg but it made me feel spacey, heavy and lethargic. Looks like I'm going to try for the night time dose.

[MenDis]

Also of note is the finding that several of these molecules are neurotoxic at a certain concentration; 50mg/mL of cell culture sounds like a pretty huge amount, compared to 1micromole needed to promote neurite outgrowth. But a closer examination of these numbers is warranted.

Chrono,

The study you mention states

Traditionally, Ashwagandha has been considered to have
no side effects. However, the methanol extract of Ashwagandha
showed neurotoxicity at high doses (>50 ug/ml) in
our experiments (data not shown). This neurotoxicity of the
extract may have been caused by the neurotoxic constituents
withaferin A and withanolide D at least in part. Therefore,
isolated active compounds but not the extract form should
be used for the purpose of facilitating neurite maturity.

The quantity is 50 ug/ml, NOT 50 mg/ml (The longecity quote function changes u to m, interestingly. I changed it back). Of more use is the statement (in regards to human neuroblastoma cells treated in vitro):

Withaferin A and withanolide D were found to be
neurotoxic at a concentration of 1 uM.

Converting this concentration into a dosage in mg/kg for a human is probably hard to do. You would have to know the human's blood volume, the amount of the substance that makes it into the blood and the dynamics of the environment immediately around a neuron and the percentage of the substance that makes it from the blood into this environment. I suspect that it would also be different for different parts of the brain based on blood flow at the time, which would be based on neuronal activity at the time. Doing a rough calculation for worst case highest concentration, assuming that the concentration around the neuron is the same as that in the blood and that the entire dose makes it into the blood: Human blood volume is 70ml/kg (1). For 90 kg, this is 90*70 = 6,300 = 6.3 liters. 1 uM is 10^(-6) moles/liter, so I would have to ingest 6.3*10^(-6) moles. Withaferin A has a molecular weight of 470.60 g/mol (2). This would be 6.3*10^(-6)*470.6 = 0.00296 grams = 2.96 mg. According to post # 15 my stephen_b at (3)

Jarrow's product is standardized to "contain a minimum of 8% withanolide glycosides, a minimum of 32% oligosachharides and a maximum of 2% withaferin A".

He is referring to the product Sensoril. The daily dose is 225mg. At 225 mg, this would be .02*225 = 4.5 mg of Withaferin A, which is greater than the 2.96 mg I calculated for neurotoxicity.

I am sure that one of the assumptions I have made in my analysis is wrong or I have missed something, so can someone please correct me? I'm hoping that I am wrong.

(1) http://medical-dicti...com/Human Blood
(2) Withaferin_A_MSDS.pdf (attached)
(3) http://www.longecity...tivate-so-much/

Attached Files

•  Withaferin_A_MSDS.pdf   26.73KB   5 downloads

[MenDis]

I found the full version of the study here:
https://docs.google....MM00/edit?pli=1

[MenDis]

It turns out that extrapolating in vitro data to in vivo dosages is a bit more complicated than my initial analysis and depends on things like:
Physiological data of species (e.g., cardiac output; organ volumes)
Physicochemical parameters (e.g., molecular weight, Log P, partition coefficient)
Biochemistry and clearance data (e.g., protein binding; hepatic and renal clearance)
In vivo tissue time course data
In vivo dose response data


I found the attached document detailing how to construct a model for in vitro to in vivo extrapolation for a neurotoxic insectiside. It provides some good information about the information needed to construct a general model for any substance. Hopefully I can use it to come up with a better estimate for withaferin A. Although I must admit that I have no experience whatsoever in the field of medicine or pharmacology, so I am probably not the best person to do this.

If anyone has any experience in these fields, I would greatly appreciate some input.

Attached Files

•  Extrapolating Dose in Vitro to Dose in Vivo Neurotoxic.pdf   436.03KB   3 downloads