56 replies to this topic

[Hypothermic]

This thread may seem a little out of place, but would anyone comment on the use of sub-threshold doses (10-25µg) LSD-25 as a nootropic?
Someone who isn't me takes between 10-25µg orally as a nootropic aid when learning or to simply enhance sensory perception and being.

No "bad trips" or experiences have been reported by the person, but expected from such small doses. Pharmaceutical grade LSD-25.

Edited by Hypothermic, 03 July 2010 - 10:35 PM.

[health_nutty]

Any reason you want to use this over more conventional nootropics such as the racetams and/or acetyl-choline boosters?

[brain]

It won't work, tolerance will develop very rapidly as your 5ht1a/5ht2a receptors downregulate. Less rapidly as with higher dosages, but it still won't be sustainable for very long at all. It also won't work with psilocybin. 2ce, an analogue of mescaline, is known for having little to no tolerance, and is currently unscheduled. With that, you'd probably want to be dosing around 1 - 2 mg, and so you'd need a very accurate scale that weighs down to 001g. DMT also acts on 5ht1a/5ht2a receptors and has little to no tolerance. You could look into some of the analogues. Those are pretty much the only options I'm aware of. If you want a 5ht1a agonist, you could try to get your hands on some tandospirone, but good luck with that. There are some tandospirone citrate capsules available through chinese suppliers, I haven't ever ordered them and I'm not sure if you would really know what you're getting. Tandospirone likely has pronounced cognition-enhancing and antidepressant activity like other selective 5ht1a agonists.

Edited by brain, 04 July 2010 - 03:14 AM.

[Hypothermic]

Any reason you want to use this over more conventional nootropics such as the racetams and/or acetyl-choline boosters?

These have already been used. Cerebrolysin is the current nootropic used.

[medievil]

Ive made a thread about this a while ago, not about LSD specifically but about psychedelics in general and their potential in low doses as nootropics.

It won't work, tolerance will develop very rapidly as your 5ht1a/5ht2a receptors downregulate.

That isnt allways the case brain, take for example a look at this experience:

I mentioned this once before in a post called LSD and its lingering effects on me. I went through a long spell of taking small doses every day, for about almost a year (9 months or so?), specifically for this very purpose.

The trick is not to take enough so that you're actually "tripping." And don't worry about the over-hyped tolerance that everyone speaks of, because I assure you that acid always works, even when taking it every day... remember the trick is not to trip, anyway.

Keeping in mind I was starting off with properly calibrated 100mcg doses, I would take approximately 20 mcg a day for a week or so, and eventually kept it at about 40mcg. A couple times I would try going over the mark (initially concerned about tolerance), but it would end up actually making me feel like I was tripping, so I would back off the next day.

I suppose a lot of how I felt that year could be chalked up to placebo effect or whatever. I don't care though. All I know is that what it did for me during that year is similar to what people who take antidepressants tell me their meds do for THEM. Only difference is I'm not (nor have I been) depressed about anything. So maybe it's better to say it's a general mood enhancer? However you slice it, low-dose LSD is a whole different ballgame from recreational (or spiritual) LSD use.

(taken from bluelight.
Most reports indicate that there isnt much tolerance to the treshold doses, as apposted to high psychedelic doses. My own experience wih 2CD confirms that, altough it never was really cognitive enhancing for me, it seemed to make my mind more foggy, however it did work for my chronic anhedonia and it was the only thing available for me at the time, tolerance never really became much of an issue.

Edited by medievil, 04 July 2010 - 10:05 AM.

[pycnogenol]

Hypothermic,

Have you tried taking Hydergine? Hydergine is similar in chemistry to LSD-25, but non-hallucinogenic.

[Hypothermic]

Hypothermic,

Have you tried taking Hydergine? Hydergine is similar in chemistry to LSD-25, but non-hallucinogenic.

Yes, I bought some from IAS. I have been taking it for about 15 days now, 4.5mg.

[pycnogenol]

Hypothermic,

Have you tried taking Hydergine? Hydergine is similar in chemistry to LSD-25, but non-hallucinogenic.

Yes, I bought some from IAS. I have been taking it for about 15 days now, 4.5mg.

What effects are you getting from taking it, if any?

[Hypothermic]

Hypothermic,

Have you tried taking Hydergine? Hydergine is similar in chemistry to LSD-25, but non-hallucinogenic.

Yes, I bought some from IAS. I have been taking it for about 15 days now, 4.5mg.

What effects are you getting from taking it, if any?

Hmm... I have not experienced any negative-side effects. It has helped with memory, overall cognitive ability, and promote a sense of well-being. I currently take it with other Nootropics.

To note, I woke up about 4 hours ago (It is not 7:26pm EST), and have not taken my Hydergine. I feel depleted, non-responsive, tired, and I have noted I am walking around my house with no real objection. Distractibility has increased, current overall cognitive being seems impaired.

[togameru]

... however it did work for my chronic anhedonia and it was the only thing available for me at the time, tolerance never really became much of an issue.

Do you think it ameliorated you anhedonia because of downregulation or because of stimulation of 5-HT2A/2C receptors per se? I ask because I have a bunch of nefazodone and agomelatine, as well as a severe case of anhedonia that just wont let up. I understand that these receptors also downregulate when antagonized. Is that right? Just how do they upregulate and how long does it take?

[medievil]

Downregulation of 5HT2A (or blockade) is a bad thing as 5HT2A plays a crucial role in dopamine release.

The reason it worked was because of the dopamine boost caused by 5HT2A agonism (in combination with its other actions).

Anhedonia is very hard to fix, most pharmaceutical wont help much (except things like amphetamine).

Yeah they downregulate when antagonized.

[Ark]

look into side effects of hyderine ( fibrosis) Hyedrine is good for many purposes but not something to take lightly.

LSD 25 is a good treatment at higher dosages for depression and Depolarizational Personility Dysfunctions-

[togameru]

Downregulation of 5HT2A (or blockade) is a bad thing as 5HT2A plays a crucial role in dopamine release.

The reason it worked was because of the dopamine boost caused by 5HT2A agonism (in combination with its other actions).

Anhedonia is very hard to fix, most pharmaceutical wont help much (except things like amphetamine).

Yeah they downregulate when antagonized.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Is there any way at all to cause them to upregulate? Glucorticoids or glucocorticoid suppression? I know that depressed individuals tend to have a high density of 5-HT2A receptors in the prefrontal cortex and an anomalously low density in the hippocampus. Perhaps stress hormones are the culprit...

[medievil]

Ive used st johns worth in the past in doses that upregulate 5HT2A, it didnt help my chronic anhedonia. I also dont think that just upregulation of those receptors will be enough.

I suggest to look into lisuride, its pretty expensive but its a strong 5HT2A agonist togheter with strong 5HT1A agonism, D2, D4 agonism and more, its pharmacological profile looks very good.

EXAMPLE A

Effect of high dosages of lisuride on geriatric patients with psychosomatic complaints and mental disturbances.

In an open pilot trial without any control drugs, the effect of lisuride has been studied in a group of 8 male and 6 female patients. The age range was 45-75 years. The diagnosis was based on rating scales and performance tests. Lisuride was given in a dosage of 500 μg daily for a period of 8 weeks. The results are based on the clinical rating scales and the performance tests. Lisuride acted as psychostimulant and neotropic agent in 6 out of the 8 male and in 5 out of the 6 female patients. The improved symptoms were memory and concentration, improvement in neuroticism, psychosomatic complaints and improvement in motoric and mental performance. There was no change in the laboratory control test from pre- to post-treatment and despite some nausea at the beginning of the treatment no remarkable side effects were observed.

The preceding examples can be repeated with similar success by substituting the generically and specifically described reactants and/or operating conditions of this invention for those used in the preceding examples.

From the foregoing description, one skilled in the art can easily ascertain the essential characteristics of this invention, and without departing from the spirit and scope thereof, can make various changes and modifications of the invention to adapt it to various usages and conditions.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4045562.html

It is very simular to LSD, i think it can be very helpfull for anhedonia.

[zeropoint]

look into side effects of hyderine ( fibrosis) Hyedrine is good for many purposes but not something to take lightly.

It's Hydergine, not hyderine and me thinks your confusing this ergot deriviative with Deseril(methysergide maleate) used for cluster headache prevention, which has fibrosis issues(with chronic use)......but also some peculiar psychoactive properties at high doses. A study was done a long while ago on methysergide maleate showing some ergot like psychoactivity, which I would think Lisuride would also be a likely canidate for this interesting research, thanks OP, very interesting thread, a slap in the face of current dark age mentality and political prejudices.

Edited by chrono, 12 August 2010 - 02:00 AM.
fixed quote tag

[Jurence]

Low dose LSD and high level mathematics is good stuff. But ... erm... yeah -- listen to the above posters: tolerance is rapid.

[Hypothermic]

Low dose LSD and high level mathematics is good stuff. But ... erm... yeah -- listen to the above posters: tolerance is rapid.

Can you explain more? I am majoring in Math in my University's Honors College.

[MoodyBlue]

Timothy Leary said that LSD could potentially raise one's IQ score to the exponential of 2. From my past experience it takes at least 3 days between usages to overcome the tolerance.

[Hypothermic]

Timothy Leary said that LSD could potentially raise one's IQ score to the exponential of 2. From my past experience it takes at least 3 days between usages to overcome the tolerance.

Can you notate this? Did you mean by 2 points, or to the exponential of 2 (IQ^2)?
Do you have a source?

[meursault]

Leary was not very scientific at all, usually completely speculative. Not to say that all his ideas are junk, but I'd highly doubt he measured this :-p

[chrono]

No, Leary didn't have any data showing that LSD doubled or squared IQ scores. I don't even have to look that one up; it's ludicrous

As a general heads-up, I'm going to be moderating these kinds of topics a little more closely. I'd like to stay focused on mechanisms, cognitive enhancement, and neurological health, rather than general usage, properties and experience. This thread is an example of a good tone. I think these are worthwhile and interesting areas of inquiry, but obviously controversial; a little restraint now will make it more likely that we can continue such discussions

It's Hydergine, not hyderine and me thinks your confusing this ergot deriviative with Deseril(methysergide maleate) used for cluster headache prevention, which has fibrosis issues(with chronic use)......but also some peculiar psychoactive properties at high doses.

My understanding is that Hydergine can also potentially cause fibrosis with chronic use; that this is a general property of ergot derivatives. Do you have any information suggesting this isn't the case?

Edited by chrono, 12 August 2010 - 03:33 PM.
grammar police

[NR2(x)]

Ok wikipedia and googles first search articles say that LSD-25 is a 5-ht-1a agonist but i believe this is false. I belive and have seen evidence that LSD-25 "mode" of action is through antagonism of 5-ht-1a. 5-ht-1a physological role is to scramble NMDARs from the synatpic head aka scramble working memory, this has evolutionary advantages. LSD temporarily blocks this which causes a massive increase in working memory, hence resulting in a trip and the associated effects. There will be rebound 5-ht-1a agonism to compensate etc. So yes at low doses i believe that their is really nootropic potential. I have used the 25mcg a few times and love the feeling of it, the fluidity of mind, youthfulness. I would specualted that i can feel lots of cAMP & cGMP circulating through my brain with loads of growth factors etc.

[medievil]

Timothy Leary said that LSD could potentially raise one's IQ score to the exponential of 2. From my past experience it takes at least 3 days between usages to overcome the tolerance.

LOL!

Anyway on topic, those compounds have potential as the best antidepressants/anxiolytics in the world in low daily doses and they have some nootropic potential in creativity, LSD behaves more as a nootropic too but its especially the enhancement of creativity and mood boost with it wich makes those compounds interesting.

Tolerance is no issue in treshold doses, fibrosis can be as they are all 5HT2B agonists.

[aLurker]

Timothy Leary said that LSD could potentially raise one's IQ score to the exponential of 2. From my past experience it takes at least 3 days between usages to overcome the tolerance.

LOL!

...

HAHAHHAHA


Timothy Leary getting arrested by the DEA, at least he looks happy :D

[chrono]

For those who missed my post above: listing gray-market drugs available online and asking if they're worth trying is not the kind of tone I was suggesting. deleted

[maxwatt]

Low dose LSD and high level mathematics is good stuff. But ... erm... yeah -- listen to the above posters: tolerance is rapid.

It will also improve your billiards game. But I can't recommend a scheduled drug for any use.

There are legal 5-HT1a agonists.

Didn't Leary manage to have his severed head put into orbit?

[NR2(x)]

Again LSD is a 5-ht-1a antagonist(extremely weak partial agonist but massive affinity), furthermore it has very low affinity for 5-ht-2a.

Heres a good place to start
http://www.ncbi.nlm....1702892/?page=8

Edited by chrono, 13 August 2010 - 05:49 AM.
off-topic conspiracy theories

[chrono]

NR2: This is definitely not the thread to talk about information conspiracy topics. Google and wiki are not authorities on biomedical research to begin with; if you don't like their occasional inaccuracy, don't use them.

Didn't Leary manage to have his severed head put into orbit?

I'd heard something about cryonics as well, but apparently that was in a fictional film sequence; but someone had his ashes put in orbit.

[medievil]

Low dose LSD and high level mathematics is good stuff. But ... erm... yeah -- listen to the above posters: tolerance is rapid.

It will also improve your billiards game. But I can't recommend a scheduled drug for any use.

There are legal 5-HT1a agonists.

Didn't Leary manage to have his severed head put into orbit?

Its not really selective 5HT1A agonism that causes the effects of those compounds but a mix of 5HT agonism and andronergic agonism, this papers has a good overview of the receptor profiles of those psychedelic compounds.
http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0009019

There also appears to be a huge variety between them.

[Animal]

Again LSD is a 5-ht-1a antagonist(extremely weak partial agonist but massive affinity), furthermore it has very low affinity for 5-ht-2a.

Heres a good place to start
http://www.ncbi.nlm....1702892/?page=8

I've noticed that you often include unnecessary pharmacokinetic details in your posts but that the information is often inaccurate. I assume you're doing this because you think it somehow makes your posts seem more authoritative. Stop trying so hard, it's having the opposite effect.