56 replies to this topic

[NR2(x)]

Animal this just shows how half brained you are, your sterotypie and in the box classification just piss me off, your manic in a very bad way.
If you dont know how and what the drug does, how are you supposed to evaluate its potential as a nootropic. I really could say so much more but i dont believe its necessary.
What i try and do is steer people in a direction that leads to understanding, i make no real attempt to teach or justify, in fact i hope to be egoless. I found it really hard to work against all the science that is presented to us that has no factual basis, without having university access to reasearch i would never have really come to understand a partial/fractual functional/intergrated model of the biochemistry of the brain. If people are going to use LSD which is a f*ck intense drug they should atleast understand how it works, this is through inhibtion of serotonins mind narrowing properties.

[chrono]

@NR2: I've mentioned the same thing to you in any number of threads. Mania has nothing to do with this, and using what someone has shared about their psychological history as a means for general insult is both indiscreet and inappropriate. If you want to help people understand, you should respond to accusations of inaccuracy with specific proof, rather than insults and questionable generalizations about why science has no 'factual basis.'

@medievil: thanks a lot for that paper, it seems like a good reference for the broad pharmalogical profiles.

[Animal]

Animal this just shows how half brained you are, your sterotypie and in the box classification just piss me off, your manic in a very bad way.

LoL, claiming I'm manic for my above post just goes to provide further evidence that you have no real understanding of what you're talking about.

For example, as is typical you've been spreading misinformation in this thread, with your own (incorrect) interpretation of established data. You're claiming LSD is an antagonist of 5-HT1A receptors, and that is has low affinity for 5-HT2A receptors, which is just bullshit. It has an extremely high affinity for both receptors and functions as a partial agonist at both, with minimal antagonistic properties since primary agonist ligands are only present in negligible quantities. In fact it's agonism of 5-HT2A is the primary facilitation of psychedelic effects. This is modulated by the agonism of 5-HT1A because 5-HT2A mediated behaviours have been shown to be influenced by the 5-HT1A receptor in a variety of experimental paradigms. I mean selective 5-HT2A antagonists block the psychedelic activity of LSD almost entirely, showing quite clearly that LSD is a strong partial agonist with high affinity for the receptor.

The study you posted on in vitro antagonism of 5-HT glutamate mediated excitation of somatic neurones is not relevant at all.

The short version is that you post pharmacokinetic blurb in an effort to look authoritative, but it's just your incorrect and skewed personal interpretation of data you obviously have a limited understanding of. Stop spreading bullshit in other words. You do this often, but I only called you on it in this thread because it's starting to annoy me.

Edited by Animal, 15 August 2010 - 10:44 PM.

[NR2(x)]

I didnt not now that animal felt he was manic i apolgise for my choice of words.

since primary agonist ligands are only present in negligible quantities, what about 5-ht???

THis is really simple, LSD has massive affinity, approuching irreversiabile binding to 5-ht-1a, but activates the complex infrequently and weakly. On post synatpic 5-ht-1a the overall effect is antagonist because of the competitive supression of endogenous 5-ht coupled with the requirement for strong activation of a phasic receptor rather than a basal receptor. On pre synatpic receptors the effect is partial agonist because as a basal receptor its more sentistive to mild stimulation, a agonism of a presynaptic is equivalent to antagonism of post synaptic. Both effects in net are antagonist towards the function of 5-ht-1a, which is to scramble nmdar's from the synaptic head. Lets now explain what this means in the body, the raphe nuclei contain most 5-ht-1a presynatpic receptors and is responsible for providing a strong inhibitor effect throughout the brain mediated through projections that terminate at other neurons by 5-ht-1a postsynatpic receptors. LSD blocks the working memory inhibtion of glutamate which cause a excitation and a opening of concious potential.

[Animal]

I didnt not now that animal felt he was manic i apolgise for my choice of words.

LoL dude I'm not manic right now, and I haven't been for a long time. In the past I did have a hypomanic -> manic episode that resulted in psychotic behaviour characterised by extreme violence and me being acquitted of 4 counts of actual and 1 count of grievous bodily harm among other things.

But that's all in the past now, unless you make me angry of course. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

[MoodyBlue]

Timothy Leary said that LSD could potentially raise one's IQ score to the exponential of 2. From my past experience it takes at least 3 days between usages to overcome the tolerance.

Can you notate this? Did you mean by 2 points, or to the exponential of 2 (IQ^2)?
Do you have a source?

No, I can't provide a source. A psychologist many years ago gave me a copy of part of a paper written by Timothy Leary in which Leary claimed that potentially one could exponentially square one's IQ (as in IQ^2). Obviously, that was an outlandish subjective opinion. Perhaps with Leary, his IQ while using LSD was more like IQ^(a+ib), since his imagination would have been magnified perhaps to the point of him mistaking it for reality.

[medievil]

For more into regarding my own experiments and experiences, read this thread on mind and muscle:
http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=42867

Not all was with psychedelics.

Edited by medievil, 18 August 2010 - 08:33 PM.

[medievil]

I would like to add a few things about my experiments:

1. Many of those compounds are 5HT2B agonists, ask yourself would you take a old dopamine agaonist with 5HT2B property's? If no then also stay away from those compounds, making a exception because some have recreational potential is nonsense.

2. Would you be comfortable taking a normal regular supplements without any research behind it, and no safety data when taken long term? No then stay away from those compounds, dont make any exceptions if those compounds could have recreational potential

Have you ever used recreational drugs? No? Then stay away from this stuff, they ARE drugs and carry the same risks, if you want to avoid recreationals then avoid those chems too, even if they could have potential in a few things.

I'm very open to explore the potential of those chems, but its DEFINATLY not recommend for the average nootropic user.

Edited by medievil, 18 August 2010 - 11:42 PM.

[medievil]

And as outlined by animal in a previous thread about this, those compounds can be euphoric so if you take them you feel "enhanced" that doesnt automatically mean your smarter/sharper or have a plethoria of other random benefits.

[golden1]

I'm not sure, I can definitely see where leary was coming from reflecting on my personal experience... but it's definitely not as big of an increase as he implied(extreme overkill) and I'm sure there are also decreases in other areas of cognition that go along with it.

[NR2(x)]

I understand that quite a few successful people use a subthreshold doseage daily for extended periods, some of these people are seriously famious and believe that their life is based on the stuff. The hard thing is remaining cool and in the zone, we all know the acidhead sterotype.
Also used by people to overcome aspergers, maybe our famous people are healed aspergers? It does happen naturally.

animal; theres a place for violence, its good to have anger but also love etc
I have ripped an eye out but was not charged due to an extreme threat to my life.

[medievil]

I'm not sure, I can definitely see where leary was coming from reflecting on my personal experience... but it's definitely not as big of an increase as he implied(extreme overkill) and I'm sure there are also decreases in other areas of cognition that go along with it.

2CD increased my creativity when i was posting online but when i was outside i felt cognitively impaired and retarded.

[golden1]

threshold doses and higher, but not high enough to greatly disturb my thought patterns allow me to think much faster and reach many more conclusions than I'd normally be able to. I've never actually felt impairment until the dose is decently high. (4-aco-dmt)

Basically I find it very good for reasoning and creating novel ideas. Like if I ever became a comedian I would definitely take a threshold dose beforehand, I could definitely improvise lots of jokes to go along with the act. Like a creativity stimulant.

Clearly not everyone will have this effect, but I feel like my mind melds perfectly with the "head space" I get.

Edited by golden1, 20 August 2010 - 02:27 PM.

[medievil]

threshold doses and higher, but not high enough to greatly disturb my thought patterns allow me to think much faster and reach many more conclusions than I'd normally be able to. I've never actually felt impairment until the dose is decently high. (4-aco-dmt)

Basically I find it very good for reasoning and creating novel ideas. Like if I ever became a comedian I would definitely take a threshold dose beforehand, I could definitely improvise lots of jokes to go along with the act.

Clearly not everyone will have this effect, but I feel like my mind melds perfectly with the "head space" I get.

Yes i agree with you that is something they are capable of doing.

But once again i stress ppl not to start playing around if they have no experience with recreational drugs, for those that are familiar with psychedelics some experimenting can be interesting.

[golden1]

threshold doses and higher, but not high enough to greatly disturb my thought patterns allow me to think much faster and reach many more conclusions than I'd normally be able to. I've never actually felt impairment until the dose is decently high. (4-aco-dmt)

Basically I find it very good for reasoning and creating novel ideas. Like if I ever became a comedian I would definitely take a threshold dose beforehand, I could definitely improvise lots of jokes to go along with the act.

Clearly not everyone will have this effect, but I feel like my mind melds perfectly with the "head space" I get.

Yes i agree with you that is something they are capable of doing.

But once again i stress ppl not to start playing around if they have no experience with recreational drugs, for those that are familiar with psychedelics some experimenting can be interesting.

oh yes, no doubt. You definitely have to be used to drugs in general otherwise it's just going to throw you off.

also if you have any sort of panic disorder there is good chance it will flare up on psychedelics.

Edited by golden1, 20 August 2010 - 02:35 PM.

[Magellan_man]

I found this thread researching for information about daily sub threshold LSD use.

Earlier in the thread medievil said that downregulation of 5HT2A receptors is "bad". bad or good is subjective, but here are the facts.

1. Downregulation if 5HT2A is what happens with regular use of SSRI antidepressants. By leaving more serotonin in the synapse, 5HT2A, which is a serotonin receptor, will naturally down regulate.

2. LSD does not work by blocking serotonin reuptake like an antidepressant, but rather it works by "mimicking" serotonin (it's an agonist) This also causes 5HT2A downregulation and may be partially responsible for tolerance.

3. Abnormally high densities of 5T2A have been found in the brains of sucidal patients.


My conclusion from these facts is that 5HT2A downregulation is actually the mechanism by which antidepressants work, and long term low dose use of LSD would work just like an antidepressant. That's just my speculation though.

[mission780]

I found this thread researching for information about daily sub threshold LSD use.

Earlier in the thread medievil said that downregulation of 5HT2A receptors is "bad". bad or good is subjective, but here are the facts.

1. Downregulation if 5HT2A is what happens with regular use of SSRI antidepressants. By leaving more serotonin in the synapse, 5HT2A, which is a serotonin receptor, will naturally down regulate.

2. LSD does not work by blocking serotonin reuptake like an antidepressant, but rather it works by "mimicking" serotonin (it's an agonist) This also causes 5HT2A downregulation and may be partially responsible for tolerance.

3. Abnormally high densities of 5T2A have been found in the brains of sucidal patients.


My conclusion from these facts is that 5HT2A downregulation is actually the mechanism by which antidepressants work, and long term low dose use of LSD would work just like an antidepressant. That's just my speculation though.

Is it possible to prevent the 5HT2A downregulation and thus reduce LSD tolerance?
Or is there a way to increase the effectiveness of LSD without increasing the dose? (I am talking about low dose LSD (20-40ug) for its nootropic/cognitive enhancement effects only)

I find LSD in very low doses (15-30ug) the best nootropic ever, but cannot use it daily because of the tolerance.

From my experience with very low doses of LSD, there is a 3-4 days period needed to get almost the same result from the same low dose of LSD.
On the day after, the dose have almost no effect or let's say 10-20%.
On the second day after, it has about 50% effect.
On the third day after, it has about 80%.
On the fourth day, I would say it gets to 100% again.

[lammas2]

To prevent (or perhaps even reverse) downregulation:
Hyperforin (http://www.psych.yor...stjohnswort.pdf)
NMDA antagonists

[mission780]

To prevent (or perhaps even reverse) downregulation:
Hyperforin (http://www.psych.yor...stjohnswort.pdf)
NMDA antagonists

Thanks! Anybody checked them to see if they work in practice, if they are really able to shorten LSD tolerance period?

[mission780]

Do we have any consensus regarding the tolerance (down-regulation) in Lsd microdosing ? Does the tolerance happen in case of everyday use? Does such small amount of LSD (10-15uq) have any noticeable effects at all?

 

[protoject]

based on my "friend"s personal experience, daily microdosing didn't cause tolerance issues, but was also arguably not an effective nootropic or therapeutic option.
LSD has more than just 5ht2a agonism effects, which may explain why. That and 5ht2a agonism can have paradoxical effects.

5ht2a inverse agonists  may upregulate 5ht2a receptors based on some scientific research (This one is on rats- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8354344 )

[bebekbu]

based on my "friend"s personal experience, daily microdosing didn't cause tolerance issues, but was also arguably not an effective nootropic or therapeutic option.
LSD has more than just 5ht2a agonism effects, which may explain why. That and 5ht2a agonism can have paradoxical effects.

5ht2a inverse agonists  may upregulate 5ht2a receptors based on some scientific research (This one is on rats- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8354344 )

 

Agreed on upregulation (by the way, I wonder if there will ever be a way to reduce it and therefore cope with LSD's 'fast' tolerance).

 

How big was the micro-dose of your friend? I normally try to take 15-30µg when micro-dosing and I experience tolerance problem at the same dose on the next day (two days after there is almost no problem with tolerance, but daily - I would have to increase the dose (2x) to get similar effect).

[bebekbu]

based on my "friend"s personal experience, daily microdosing didn't cause tolerance issues, but was also arguably not an effective nootropic or therapeutic option.
LSD has more than just 5ht2a agonism effects, which may explain why. That and 5ht2a agonism can have paradoxical effects.

5ht2a inverse agonists  may upregulate 5ht2a receptors based on some scientific research (This one is on rats- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8354344 )

 

Micro-dosing LSD defenitely had nootropic effects for me and they are not subtle. The effects are both physical and psychological/mental.

Micro-dose of LSD enhanced/improved cognition, memory as well as mood and creativity. With micro-dosing I could be more efficient in nearly anything I did - from riding a bike/driving a car to learning new things, understanding new concepts quicker/easier.

LSD in micro-doses seems to be like a perfect nootropic!...well almost perfect, due to its problem with high tolerance (can't use it everyday effectively).
 

[AlexCanada]

Hi.  I been having a love hate relationship with the ALD-52. Do the other LSDs work similarly to this?

 

More social, more free flowing in the moment type of mood.  Easier to just speak to people and chill I suppose. But heavier breathing. Minor physical anxiety beyond the 2nd hour and it gets more uncomfortable as it goes on.   I only took 1/16th of a blotter (square) because I don't want to get high. I just want to improve my depression, anhedonia, poor energy etc. 

 

 

I just wonder what combinations might be helpful?   I usually have a wider range of emotion many hours after the LSD and even onto the next day but during the  2-6 hour mark I actually bit hate how it feels to be on it.  I am not sure I can describe it right now but my perspective while on ALD-52 is rarely positive during the initial onset period. 

 

 

 

BTW:  I also get difference in visuals. A bit of ghosting around the edges and around movement.  And something happening with my sinuses. Things clearing out it seems. Deeper breathing.  Feels like more oxygen in my lungs.  

Edited by AlexCanada, 19 December 2017 - 10:51 PM.

[gamesguru]

the peak is just too intense for me.  i can feel all my muscles quivering, i can feel myself standing in time.  and the more you take it the more it brings out this awareness, this anxiety.  i used to take it all the time, what was i thinking, how silly.  now given the choice i'll grab a beer any day of the week.  if dropping acid makes you more bubbly and vivacious that's great, youre a weirdo

 

and i really wouldn't expect the world of this daily subthreshold business.  when you throw hallucinogens into the mix it becomes trickier to keep track of how other things are affecting you, and these drugs may affect your friends very differently than you

[zeropoint]

Most ppl on this thread are confusing sub-threshold and low dose protocol difference, myself included until recently.....

 

on a sub-threshold dose you would NOT notice and/or detect a tolerence per say--- if you do you are low dosing not micro-dosing/sub-threshold dosing.

[medievil]

Silicon valley stole my ideas, the bastards!