30 replies to this topic

[Logan]

Anyone taking Pregnenolone or DHEA? I'm interested in supplementing with low doses of both of these and would like to hear experiences/opinions.

[stephen_b]

I'm taking both. Pregnenolone by itself at a 50 mg dose raised my DHEA-s from 84 ug/dL to 212 ug/dL. A doctor I consulted with thought it should be a bit higher to be optimal (I'm 46 now), so I've added a small dose of DHEA too (also 50 mg).

[Logan]

I'm taking both. Pregnenolone by itself at a 50 mg dose raised my DHEA-s from 84 ug/dL to 212 ug/dL. A doctor I consulted with thought it should be a bit higher to be optimal (I'm 46 now), so I've added a small dose of DHEA too (also 50 mg).

So how do you feel?

I'm 37 and have had fatigue issues for the first time in my life. I also just started thyroid treatment 3 weeks ago so that may help with the fatigue and other symptoms associated with a low thyroid.

I really just want to optimize mental and physical energy levels. If I try one or both of them(I will add one for at least a week then add the other), I will be taking very low doses. I'm interested in a sublingual form of both-5 to 10 mg of pregnenolone and 10 to 25 mg of DHEA.

Do you cycle them at all and take breaks?

[stephen_b]

I haven't been cycling these. I honestly can't say that I feel anything with them. I just take both to adjust blood parameters.

For energy you might try making sure you get enough sleep take in adequate magnesium. Rhodiola and acetyl-l-carnitine are nice too.

StephenB

[Logan]

I haven't been cycling these. I honestly can't say that I feel anything with them. I just take both to adjust blood parameters.

For energy you might try making sure you get enough sleep take in adequate magnesium. Rhodiola and acetyl-l-carnitine are nice too.

StephenB

I get plenty of sleep and take all of those supplements. I am experiencing more than just low energy issues. I have both mind and muscle fatigue and aches and pain all over the place. I really think part of the problem is my thyroid. I have read about so many positive experiences with both pregnenolone and DHEA I am very tempted to try both just to see if I can feel better, even if thyroid treatment starts to make a difference.

[Logan]

I haven't been cycling these. I honestly can't say that I feel anything with them. I just take both to adjust blood parameters.

For energy you might try making sure you get enough sleep take in adequate magnesium. Rhodiola and acetyl-l-carnitine are nice too.

StephenB

I get plenty of sleep and take all of those supplements. I am experiencing more than just low energy issues. I have both mind and muscle fatigue and aches and pain all over the place. I really think part of the problem is my thyroid. I have read about so many positive experiences with both pregnenolone and DHEA I am very tempted to try both just to see if I can feel better, even if thyroid treatment starts to make a difference.

[pycnogenol]

I've been taking a low-dose of DHEA daily (10 mg / Jarrow brand) for many years. I do not cycle it.

I don't take pregnenolone because I once took it for a short time (25 mg for 2 weeks or so) and for
some reason all it did was make me grouchy and irritable. Go figure.

I take DHEA primarily for mood enhancement and for that it purpose definitely helps me. YMMV.

Edited by pycnogenol, 07 July 2010 - 10:58 PM.

[Logan]

I've been taking a low-dose of DHEA daily (10 mg / Jarrow brand) for many years. I do not cycle it.

I don't take pregnenolone because I once took it for a short time (25 mg for 2 weeks or so) and for
some reason all it did was make me grouchy and irritable. Go figure.

I take DHEA primarily for mood enhancement and for that it purpose definitely helps me. YMMV.

Thanks man, I think I will try a 10 mg sublingual daily dose of DHEA and skip the pregnenolone for now. I have definitely read more reports of people having more adverse reactions to pregnenolone.

[krillin]

I found out from experience that taking DHEA sublingually to dodge the liver is actually worse than taking it orally. This paper explains why.

Most orally administered DHEA is converted to DHEAS by intestinal cells and is thus absorbed primarily in that form, which then acts as an inactive reservoir from which the body can make more DHEA. Intravenously administered DHEA is subject to rapid hepatic clearance, whereas DHEAS is resistant to first-pass metabolism.

dose (mg/day) blood level (mcg/dl)
0----------------------------75
100 (oral)----------------268
150 (SL)-----------------194
150 (SL)-----------------162
100 (oral)----------------271
200 (oral)----------------484

[Logan]

I found out from experience that taking DHEA sublingually to dodge the liver is actually worse than taking it orally. This paper explains why.

Most orally administered DHEA is converted to DHEAS by intestinal cells and is thus absorbed primarily in that form, which then acts as an inactive reservoir from which the body can make more DHEA. Intravenously administered DHEA is subject to rapid hepatic clearance, whereas DHEAS is resistant to first-pass metabolism.

dose (mg/day) blood level (mcg/dl)
0----------------------------75
100 (oral)----------------268
150 (SL)-----------------194
150 (SL)-----------------162
100 (oral)----------------271
200 (oral)----------------484

Nice, thanks for that! Maybe micronized oral is the way to go. I just need to find a 10 mg micronized tablet/capsule. I want to start low and see how I feel. Maybe I will just start with a regular 10 mg tablet/capsule and figure it out from there.

Edited by morganator, 08 July 2010 - 02:39 PM.

[pycnogenol]

Maybe micronized oral is the way to go. I just need to find a 10 mg micronized tablet/capsule.
Maybe I will just start with a regular 10 mg tablet/capsule and figure it out from there.

This probably the closest product of what you're looking for:

http://www.iherb.com...-Caps/7472?at=0

This is the one I take:

http://www.iherb.com...ules/16817?at=0

I take the Jarrow Formulas brand because I prefer straight DHEA with no bioperine. Personal preference only.

Edited by pycnogenol, 08 July 2010 - 03:05 PM.

[Logan]

Maybe micronized oral is the way to go. I just need to find a 10 mg micronized tablet/capsule.
Maybe I will just start with a regular 10 mg tablet/capsule and figure it out from there.

This probably the closest product of what you're looking for:

http://www.iherb.com...-Caps/7472?at=0

This is the one I take:

http://www.iherb.com...ules/16817?at=0

I take the Jarrow Formulas brand because I prefer straight DHEA with no bioperine. Personal preference only.

I like Jarrow and it's the right dose so I may start with this product.

I'm looking for a micronized version that is 10 mg, not something with bioperine, but thanks anyway brotha.

[James Cain]

Couldn't one take say 50 mg of "regular" DHEA instead of 10 mg of micronized to get similar absorption? I don't know the specifics, but it seems cost effective provided the the lower amount absorbed of the "regular" stuff would be consistent.

[pycnogenol]

I'm looking for a micronized version that is 10 mg, not something with bioperine, but thanks anyway brotha.

Hey, no problem.

Here is a micronized, 10 mg strength DHEA product with no bioperine:

http://www.iherb.com...lets/23720?at=0

Edited by pycnogenol, 08 July 2010 - 10:21 PM.

[Logan]

I like Jarrow and it's the right dose so I may start with this product.

I'm looking for a micronized version that is 10 mg, not something with bioperine, but thanks anyway brotha.

Hey, no problem.

Here is a micronized, 10 mg strength DHEA product with no bioperine:

http://www.iherb.com...lets/23720?at=0

Thanks man

[krillin]

For those who need large doses, I've found that Nature's Purest is equivalent to micronized Trimedica.

I started out with Trimedica 100 mg/day, then did 50 mg Trimedica + 100 mg Nature's Purest sublingually, and was dismayed by the blood level and blamed the new product, I so took 150 mg Trimedica sublingually for an even worse result. 100 mg/day Nature's Purest gave virtually the same result as the Trimedica, so that's what I decided to use after using up my remaining Trimedica.

[tintinet]

Anyone tried Keto-7 DHEA? Any effects noted?

[pycnogenol]

Anyone tried Keto-7 DHEA? Any effects noted?

I've tried 7-Keto and had the same effects as regular DHEA. I would take it but can't
find a 10 mg strength version.

The lowest 7-Keto strength I've seen is 25 mg and that is too much for me;
25 mg just makes me too wired and causes insomnia even if I take it early in the AM.

Edited by pycnogenol, 09 July 2010 - 06:59 PM.

[krillin]

Anyone tried Keto-7 DHEA? Any effects noted?

I used it before regular DHEA and it actually relieved most of my symptoms for three months, but eventually failed just like every other thing I've done to inhibit the TRP receptors. (COX inhibitors and somatostatin release from nasal/food capsaicin or naltrexone. I've only tried a few nitroglycerin patches: they worked in 2004 but made things worse in 2009. I think it's because I'm more sensitive to glutamate now, so NO's indirect TRP antagonism through TTX-R sodium channel inhibition gets swamped by its retrograde messenger action that increases glutamate secretion.)

DHEA is the best TRPV1 inhibitor of all the hormones tested in PMID: 15201344. Testosterone is less effective than DHEA, while estradiol actually potentiates TRPV1.

Since you can't get a blood test for 7-keto and it didn't seem to do anything anymore, I switched to regular DHEA. It's much cheaper, has a blood test, and I tested very low. (About a year after 7-keto stopped working, I asked a doctor if I could get a DHEA test. He instead tested testosterone, ACTH, and cortisol and proclaimed me perfectly healthy. Thank Ceiling Cat for LEF's self-ordered tests!)

[Logan]

Ah ha, so DHEA levels could be low while testerone levels look perfectly fine, right? I suspected this. I wonder if this is the case with me. I've also read that depression can cause DHEA levels to drop. I wouldn't be surprise if this were the case with me.

So I know this is way premature, but I took 5mg of micronized DHEA around 530 and I'm thinking I am already noticing a difference. It's like I can breathe now-less anxiety, less fatigue, less headache, less muscle ache, etc. It's probably placebo, I've been reacting quickly to a lot of things lately. I sure hope DHEA is doing something positive here, I need it bad.

[kilgoretrout]

My somewhat waning male libido improved when I switched from taking 25mg DHEA every day to taking 50mg only 3x per week but adding 1200mg Nettle Leaf at the same time to reduce conversion to estrogen and increase the Test. pathway.

[Logan]

My somewhat waning male libido improved when I switched from taking 25mg DHEA every day to taking 50mg only 3x per week but adding 1200mg Nettle Leaf at the same time to reduce conversion to estrogen and increase the Test. pathway.

Why the switch from 25 mg everyday to 50 mg 3x per week?

Does nettle really have that much of an effect on estrogen and testosterone? Do you have an documentation for this? I guess that is one reason why it is used in prostate formulas.

[kilgoretrout]

Dont recall where... but I have read numerous warnings about dhea increasing estrogen without something to push it towards test. instead. Every other day was just something I thought was a good idea, if possible conversion to estrogen was an issue... if the nettle leaf was not completely stopping it, then the days off should help keep the est. from imbalancing things too much as it would be only 3x/week.

I think I read some dude's post in one of a hundred bodybuilding supplement forums somewhere in which he repeated the concerns about conversion to estrogen, and the libido improvement when he added an aromatase inhibitor (I think that's what nettle leaf and others do). So I quit dhea altogether for a couple weeks, and noted a definite improvement in libido, at which point I switched to my current strategy.

Sorry dont recall where I read about Nettle leaf. Somewhere though. Im convinced though. Try googling it yourself and report back to us!

Edited by kilgoretrout, 22 July 2010 - 07:08 AM.

[Logan]

Dont recall where... but I have read numerous warnings about dhea increasing estrogen without something to push it towards test. instead. Every other day was just something I thought was a good idea, if possible conversion to estrogen was an issue... if the nettle leaf was not completely stopping it, then the days off should help keep the est. from imbalancing things too much as it would be only 3x/week.

I think I read some dude's post in one of a hundred bodybuilding supplement forums somewhere in which he repeated the concerns about conversion to estrogen, and the libido improvement when he added an aromatase inhibitor (I think that's what nettle leaf and others do). So I quit dhea altogether for a couple weeks, and noted a definite improvement in libido, at which point I switched to my current strategy.

Sorry dont recall where I read about Nettle leaf. Somewhere though. Im convinced though. Try googling it yourself and report back to us!

Thanks for getting back to me. I did google it. It appears that stinging nettle may help block SHBG(sex hormone binding globulin), which can suppress testosterone utilization.

http://www.google.co...X5EZzqAqiYtQwgQ

I also found this interesting:

http://www.google.co...MPj0VipbUD3Rt8A

So I guess stinging nettle may be good for treating inflammatory issues.

Edited by morganator, 22 July 2010 - 05:03 PM.

[kilgoretrout]

Here's a post at http://www.musclecha...read.php?t=2796

After a somewhat low level of free T of 11 and a total T level of 750, I think I read somewhere here that stinging nettle was effective to release bound T.




In my most recent test the free T had increased to 16 and a total T level of 650 after reducing my test cyp dose slightly.




I attribute the increase in free T to the addition of stinging nettle to my program.




A recently identified-compound in nettle root, 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran, is now used in some testosterone support products since it can increase free testosterone by occupying binding sites on a protein (SHBG) that ordinarily binds to free testosterone, rendering it biologically active.

Found the below at http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t600.html


(the discussion goes on for quite a bit longer with lots (maybe too much) more information. MindAndMuscle.net seems like a really good place... I'm always finding answers to questions there... I really ought to add it to my regular rounds (great... someplace ELSE to waste what little remaining time that I have!)

Nettle is a galactagogue, however I could not find if this was via Prolactin or via Oxycotin (did some brief searching, much to my annoyance as I could not obtain that which I was wanting).


Vitex also increase Progesterone which would act as a negative feedback mechanism, to LH. The lignans as found also in Flax, may exert an anti-Estrogenic action (so perhaps the oil itself, with the lignans removed may not be as helpful come post cycle. The seeds and certain oils do have the lingnans in addition to the Omega 3's).


Nettle not only binds to SHBG, but like many herbs serves a host of many functions:


Nettle inhibits the Aromatase and 5-Alpha Reductase enzymes that have been implicated in the development of Enlarged Prostate.
- Nettle inhibits the transformation of the benign Cells involved in Enlarged Prostate to the malignant Cells involved in Prostate Cancer.
- Nettle inhibits the binding of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) to Prostate cells (thereby preventing DHT from stimulating the proliferation of Prostate cells that leads to Enlarged Prostate).
- The Urtica dioica Agglutinin content of Nettle inhibits the ability of Epidermal Growth Factor (EGF) to bind to its Receptors in the Prostate and to subsequently stimulate the growth of Prostate tissue (a key underlying factor in the progression of Enlarged Prostate).
- A constituent of Nettle ((10-E, 12-Z)-9-hydroxy-10, 12-octadecadienic acid) inhibits the Aromatase Enzyme that catalyzes the conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol (a key underlying factor in the progression of Enlarged Prostate).
Nettle improves Lactation.


Nettle Enhances the Function of these Substances
Hormones
Nettle inhibits the binding of Testosterone to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), resulting in lower levels of “bound” Testosterone and higher levels of “free” Testosterone (this effect occurs as a result of Nettle binding to SHBG in place of Testosterone).


Nettle Inhibits these Potentially Toxic Substances
Enzymes
Nettle inhibits the activity of 5-Alpha Reductase.
Nettle inhibits the activity of Aromatase.


http://www.herbsorganic.co.za/pages/workin...ttle%20info.htm

[Logan]

Here's a post at http://www.musclecha...read.php?t=2796

After a somewhat low level of free T of 11 and a total T level of 750, I think I read somewhere here that stinging nettle was effective to release bound T.




In my most recent test the free T had increased to 16 and a total T level of 650 after reducing my test cyp dose slightly.




I attribute the increase in free T to the addition of stinging nettle to my program.






A recently identified-compound in nettle root, 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran, is now used in some testosterone support products since it can increase free testosterone by occupying binding sites on a protein (SHBG) that ordinarily binds to free testosterone, rendering it biologically active.

Found the below at http://www.mindandmu...x.php?t600.html

(the discussion goes on for quite a bit longer with lots (maybe too much) more information. MindAndMuscle.net seems like a really good place... I'm always finding answers to questions there... I really ought to add it to my regular rounds (great... someplace ELSE to waste what little remaining time that I have!)

Nettle is a galactagogue, however I could not find if this was via Prolactin or via Oxycotin (did some brief searching, much to my annoyance as I could not obtain that which I was wanting).


Vitex also increase Progesterone which would act as a negative feedback mechanism, to LH. The lignans as found also in Flax, may exert an anti-Estrogenic action (so perhaps the oil itself, with the lignans removed may not be as helpful come post cycle. The seeds and certain oils do have the lingnans in addition to the Omega 3's).


Nettle not only binds to SHBG, but like many herbs serves a host of many functions:


Nettle inhibits the Aromatase and 5-Alpha Reductase enzymes that have been implicated in the development of Enlarged Prostate.
- Nettle inhibits the transformation of the benign Cells involved in Enlarged Prostate to the malignant Cells involved in Prostate Cancer.
- Nettle inhibits the binding of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) to Prostate cells (thereby preventing DHT from stimulating the proliferation of Prostate cells that leads to Enlarged Prostate).
- The Urtica dioica Agglutinin content of Nettle inhibits the ability of Epidermal Growth Factor (EGF) to bind to its Receptors in the Prostate and to subsequently stimulate the growth of Prostate tissue (a key underlying factor in the progression of Enlarged Prostate).
- A constituent of Nettle ((10-E, 12-Z)-9-hydroxy-10, 12-octadecadienic acid) inhibits the Aromatase Enzyme that catalyzes the conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol (a key underlying factor in the progression of Enlarged Prostate).
Nettle improves Lactation.


Nettle Enhances the Function of these Substances
Hormones
Nettle inhibits the binding of Testosterone to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), resulting in lower levels of "bound" Testosterone and higher levels of "free" Testosterone (this effect occurs as a result of Nettle binding to SHBG in place of Testosterone).


Nettle Inhibits these Potentially Toxic Substances
Enzymes
Nettle inhibits the activity of 5-Alpha Reductase.
Nettle inhibits the activity of Aromatase.


http://www.herbsorga...ttle%20info.htm

Hey thanks for the extra info.

[Mishael]

I took DHEA by Natrol at high dosages at one point and it certainly I think improved my strength, that or the SAM-e I was taking or both. In addition to that it gave me somewhat of a face lift. The one thing that annoyed me was the increase in libido. It made my penis way too sensitive. A simple breeze was enough to give me orgasmic sensations (slight exaggeration). I think at one point I was having wet dreams every two weeks. When I got off this stuff I did not have wet dreams that often, not even monthly (I am 32). I was taking fairly high doses, 400,200, 150 per day, not every day, sometimes everyday. I think this stuff certainly accumulates and stays floating around in your blood. I suffer from depression, but I am not sure that this is the solution. It gives you a face lift, increases libido way high, annoyingly high, and perhaps increases strength and perhaps makes you decide about things quicker and be more firm about your decisions. This is what it did for me at that time. If I could suppress the way it made my penis feel, because that is way too distracting, I would recommend taking it more often.

[Logan]

I took DHEA by Natrol at high dosages at one point and it certainly I think improved my strength, that or the SAM-e I was taking or both. In addition to that it gave me somewhat of a face lift. The one thing that annoyed me was the increase in libido. It made my penis way too sensitive. A simple breeze was enough to give me orgasmic sensations (slight exaggeration). I think at one point I was having wet dreams every two weeks. When I got off this stuff I did not have wet dreams that often, not even monthly (I am 32). I was taking fairly high doses, 400,200, 150 per day, not every day, sometimes everyday. I think this stuff certainly accumulates and stays floating around in your blood. I suffer from depression, but I am not sure that this is the solution. It gives you a face lift, increases libido way high, annoyingly high, and perhaps increases strength and perhaps makes you decide about things quicker and be more firm about your decisions. This is what it did for me at that time. If I could suppress the way it made my penis feel, because that is way too distracting, I would recommend taking it more often.

Umm, what about taking lower doses? The lowest dose you were taking, 150 mg, is still a very high dose, especially for someone your age. Shit, people in the 50s usually only take 50 mg.

How long did you take it? Was the annoyingly increased libido the only side effect you noticed? There are a lot of men out there that would welcome the increase in libido you were experiencing.

Now I'm thinking I should up my dose. I'm 37 and just went up to 25 mg from 10 mg. I'm taking a micronized version, so I'm thinking it may be a bit more powerful than regular DHEA. So, maybe taking 25 mg of micronized DHEA is more like taking 40 or 50 mg regular DHEA. Not sure about that though.

Edited by morganator, 30 July 2010 - 09:24 PM.

[Mishael]

I took DHEA by Natrol at high dosages at one point and it certainly I think improved my strength, that or the SAM-e I was taking or both. In addition to that it gave me somewhat of a face lift. The one thing that annoyed me was the increase in libido. It made my penis way too sensitive. A simple breeze was enough to give me orgasmic sensations (slight exaggeration). I think at one point I was having wet dreams every two weeks. When I got off this stuff I did not have wet dreams that often, not even monthly (I am 32). I was taking fairly high doses, 400,200, 150 per day, not every day, sometimes everyday. I think this stuff certainly accumulates and stays floating around in your blood. I suffer from depression, but I am not sure that this is the solution. It gives you a face lift, increases libido way high, annoyingly high, and perhaps increases strength and perhaps makes you decide about things quicker and be more firm about your decisions. This is what it did for me at that time. If I could suppress the way it made my penis feel, because that is way too distracting, I would recommend taking it more often.

Umm, what about taking lower doses? The lowest dose you were taking, 150 mg, is still a very high dose, especially for someone your age. Shit, people in the 50s usually only take 50 mg.

How long did you take it? Was the annoyingly increased libido the only side effect you noticed? There are a lot of men out there that would welcome the increase in libido you were experiencing.

Now I'm thinking I should up my dose. I'm 37 and just went up to 25 mg from 10 mg. I'm taking a micronized version, so I'm thinking it may be a bit more powerful than regular DHEA. So, maybe taking 25 mg of micronized DHEA is more like taking 40 or 50 mg regular DHEA. Not sure about that though.

I have never experimented with the micronized version. For fertility purposes, one study I read used that version with success. Natrol states that its version is "bioidentical". I have no idea which is better, both seem to work. I think I took it religiously for about a month or more and then off and on after that. Its been a while. This stuff always has the same effects on me even when stopping it for a while. At the high doses around 200mg you will notice a facelift, deeper voice, greatly increased libido, if you are not a masturbator it will give you wet dreams about every two weeks because your penis becomes so sensitive (i am not a masturbator). It will also increase your strength and make you more decisive to the point where it is actually kind of painful to change your mind, kind of like a stubborn determination but in a good way (i have not been able to replicate this effect since i have been off it, but it is kind of an anti-ADD). I don't like the increased libido because it is highly distracting and I am trying to increase my intellectual side more than anything else. When I took it, I was taking it along side SAM-E, B12, and folate for depression and I was weightlifting at the time. The problem with an increase in libido too fast is that your body may not be prepared for the ensuing orgasm. For example, my body can go without orgasm for more than a month and then when it happens the effects are not as striking as when it happens every two weeks i.e. you do not feel the tiredness that excessive orgasms bring. To heighten libido and increase relationship satisfaction it is not just about this supplement. If you want a good "sex life," for me at least I follow some simple rules that work like magic. 1. I do not masturbate, which causes a natural accumulation of testosterone and energy which you need for sex. 2. I do not watch porn, which has proven deleterious implications on relationships, just ask any woman, many women hate it if their man watches porn, and I know it from personal experience that it ruins relationships. So, in summary for increase libido this is great, energy for workouts it is debatable because I was taking sam-e at the time also which gives muscle strength, decisiveness, possible, may be only in high dosages and working out at the same time, facelift, it worked for me, deeper voice, yes in high doses.

[pycnogenol]

DHEA definitely helps with my libido but the reigning champ is still Dopa Mucuna.

I've taken DHEA every day for many years; a low dose (10 mg) does the trick.