13 replies to this topic

[The Immortalist]

Has anyone heard of Oxaloacetate? It was in the Methuselah foundations latest newsletter. https://www.mfoundat...y2010/cash.html

Is anyone here going to start taking Oxaloacetate supplements? http://www.benagene.org/

[Logan]

It appears that oxaloacetate is the precursor to aspartic-acid. So supplementing with aspartic acid may be a way to increase oxaloacetate.

[hamishm00]

That's just a theory (although an interesting one), but I'd love to see some more discussion on this (especially since I am gambling on it being correct, as I supplement aspartic acid daily).

Edited by hamishm00, 29 July 2010 - 04:37 AM.

[tintinet]

I've been taking it for a few years, most recently as a component of A.O.R.'s Mito Charger. Don't know if it's really helping.

[Logan]

That's just a theory (although an interesting one), but I'd love to see some more discussion on this (especially since I am gambling on it being correct, as I supplement aspartic acid daily).

What form of aspartic acid are you supplementing?

I wonder if d aspartic acid can increase oxaloacetate levels.

[chrono]

According to this, the aspartate/oxaloacetate conversion is reversible. But I don't know anything about the equilibria/etc which may govern it.

OTOH, aspartate is a potential neurotoxin/excitotoxin (Glutamate and aspartate impair memory retention and damage hypothalamic neurons in adult mice), so I'm not sure if increasing it (through either of these substances, since the reaction is reversible) is necessarily a great idea.

[hamishm00]

To answer your question on which form: I'm going with KMAG Aspartate (Source Naturals):

Magnesium (as magnesium aspartate) 225 mg 60%
Potassium (as potassium aspartate) 297 mg 10%
Aspartic Acid (as magnesium & potassium aspartate) 1.36 g

Trans-aminization will convert aspartic acid to oxolacetic acid, but the question I think we should be asking is: does aspartate supplementation change the balance between the oxidized and reduced forms of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (i.e. does it increase the NAD+/NADH ratio).

[Logan]

To answer your question on which form: I'm going with KMAG Aspartate (Source Naturals):

Magnesium (as magnesium aspartate) 225 mg 60%
Potassium (as potassium aspartate) 297 mg 10%
Aspartic Acid (as magnesium & potassium aspartate) 1.36 g

Trans-aminization will convert aspartic acid to oxolacetic acid, but the question I think we should be asking is: does aspartate supplementation change the balance between the oxidized and reduced forms of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (i.e. does it increase the NAD+/NADH ratio).

Thanks for your response.

Increasing the NAD+/NaDH ratio would be a good thing right? Doesn't this play a role in activating Sirt1? Am I remembering this correctly?

[Logan]

According to this, the aspartate/oxaloacetate conversion is reversible. But I don't know anything about the equilibria/etc which may govern it.

OTOH, aspartate is a potential neurotoxin/excitotoxin (Glutamate and aspartate impair memory retention and damage hypothalamic neurons in adult mice), so I'm not sure if increasing it (through either of these substances, since the reaction is reversible) is necessarily a great idea.

I wonder if taking anything that antagonizes NMDA would help prevent any damaging excitotoxicity resulting from aspartic acid supplementation. Lithium, which I take 300 mg in the form of carbonate, I believe antagonizes NMDA and protects against glutamate toxicity. There are a few natural substances that may do this as well-NAC, Zinc, Magnesium(I think??), Glycine, Theanine, and a others I'm sure.
Memantine is probably the only drug worth trying that antagonizes NMDA.

I'm interested in this as I just started experimenting with D Aspartic Acid.

[maxwatt]

According to this, the aspartate/oxaloacetate conversion is reversible. But I don't know anything about the equilibria/etc which may govern it.

OTOH, aspartate is a potential neurotoxin/excitotoxin (Glutamate and aspartate impair memory retention and damage hypothalamic neurons in adult mice), so I'm not sure if increasing it (through either of these substances, since the reaction is reversible) is necessarily a great idea.

I wonder if taking anything that antagonizes NMDA would help prevent any damaging excitotoxicity resulting from aspartic acid supplementation. Lithium, which I take 300 mg in the form of carbonate, I believe antagonizes NMDA and protects against glutamate toxicity. There are a few natural substances that may do this as well-NAC, Zinc, Magnesium(I think??), Glycine, Theanine, and a others I'm sure.
Memantine is probably the only drug worth trying that antagonizes NMDA.

I'm interested in this as I just started experimenting with D Aspartic Acid.

I am not sure, but I think you might be wanting L-aspartic acid instead. Most biologicaly produced amino acids are the L- form.
Looking at the Krebs cycle, it does look as if aspartic acid would have the same effect as oxaloacetic acid. I emailed Alan Cash and asked him if this were the case. He answered that it was involved in a set of patents he has pending, and consequently he could not say more.

Short answer: Until someone tests it, we don't know if it the two amino acids are interchangeable, or if either will extend lifespan. Spindler (NIA studies) indicated in a lecture that they are seeing promising results with oxaloacetic acid (Benegene) but the results are as yet unpublished.

RE: NAD/NADH ratio: in general, increasing this ratio is associated with several things thought to increase or potentially increase lifespan, such as CR, resveratrol, methylene blue in very low doses. It is associated with an improvement in mitochondrial function.

Edited by maxwatt, 31 July 2010 - 01:04 AM.

[Logan]

According to this, the aspartate/oxaloacetate conversion is reversible. But I don't know anything about the equilibria/etc which may govern it.

OTOH, aspartate is a potential neurotoxin/excitotoxin (Glutamate and aspartate impair memory retention and damage hypothalamic neurons in adult mice), so I'm not sure if increasing it (through either of these substances, since the reaction is reversible) is necessarily a great idea.

I wonder if taking anything that antagonizes NMDA would help prevent any damaging excitotoxicity resulting from aspartic acid supplementation. Lithium, which I take 300 mg in the form of carbonate, I believe antagonizes NMDA and protects against glutamate toxicity. There are a few natural substances that may do this as well-NAC, Zinc, Magnesium(I think??), Glycine, Theanine, and a others I'm sure.
Memantine is probably the only drug worth trying that antagonizes NMDA.

I'm interested in this as I just started experimenting with D Aspartic Acid.

I sm noy sure, but I think you might be wanting L-aspartic acid instead. Most biologicaly produced amino acids are the L- form.
Looking at the Krebs cycle, it does look as if aspartic acid would have the same effect as oxaloacetic acid. I emailed Alan Cash and asked him if this were the case. He answered that it was involved in a set of patents that are pending, and consequently he could not say more.

Short answer: Until someone tests it, we don't know if it the two amino acids are interchangeable, or if either will extend lifespan. Spindler (NIA studies) indicated in a lecture that they are seeing promising results with oxaloacetic acid (Benegene) but the results are as yet unpublished.

RE: NAD/NADH ratio: in general, increasing this ratio is associated with several things thought to increase or potentially lifespan, such as CR, resveratrol, methylene blue in very low doses. It is associated with an improvement in mitochondrial function.

Thanks for that Max

[Trent]

I guess you have to know biochemistry to understand this thread. =\

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

I read that we should take a thermally stabilized form of Oxaloacetate. But the brands also package it with 150mg of vitamin C because: Vitamin C acts as an electron acceptor, stabilizing the oxaloacetate and preventing it from turning into pyruvate.

 

Is this really necessary ?  and is pyruvate really a concern ?

 

Normally its the opposite wich occur : pyruvate is transformed into oxaloacetate.

[resveratrol_guy]

For the record, most of the recent discussion of oxaloacetate is found in the BenaGene thread.