53 replies to this topic

[Lufega]

Did I already mention Selenium ??

[matter_of_time]

Collagen Light Therapy is hyped around Europe. Wondering if anyone tried this?

[niner]

In answer to the original question: Alpha-Lipoic Acid:

PubMed article

Better taken in very small doses, on an empty stomach, several times a day (totaling 200-400 mg per day), due to rapid metabolism and excretion, and because otherwise it might give you a tummy ache.

I wonder whether the study is talking about topical or supplemental ALA.

Neither. It's an in vitro study. Cells in a test tube, essentially. It's hard to translate that to effects on people. Lipoic acid is relatively small and very hydrophobic (when protonated), so if formulated in an acidic medium, it might at least stand a chance of being topically bioavailable. Some one has probably looked at it; I wouldn't be surprised to see it at skinactives.com.

[matter_of_time]

I went today to a solarium which has a bank with lamps with 633nm infrared light.
An example you can find here:
http://www.collagenl...erapy_faqs.html

A friend of my starts today with IPL:
http://en.wikipedia....se_pulsed_light

The difference is that IPL will damage your skin and they claim that collagen light therapy with 633nm light doesn't damage your skin.
If the collagen light therapy works, I dont know yet.
I have to go to 30 sessions of 20 minutes, three times a week.
I am starting with 10 sessions, if I dont see or feel any progression I wont continu.

[matter_of_time]

I have been three times to the "collagen light therapy" bank. My skin feels a lot softer and blackheads are gone.
The advice is 20 to 30 sessions (every week 2 to 3 sessions) for repair and afterwards every two week 1 session.
1 session is about 20 minutes, you see the blood flow throw skin is raised during the session.
I will keep you posted

[Ben]

Extremely interesting MOT. I've been keen on this for while. Please keep us posted . Thanks!

Edit: Ok, I see it costs $100 per session here ($96 usd right now)

Edited by Ben - Aus, 05 October 2010 - 02:51 AM.

[niner]

Edit: Ok, I see it costs $100 per session here ($96 usd right now)

That would buy a lot of these 633nm lamps.

[Ben]

Edit: Ok, I see it costs $100 per session here ($96 usd right now)

That would buy a lot of these 633nm lamps.

Thanks for that, can't seem to find the lumens anywhere though.

I love this review from some cret. who gave the product one star:

"I was hoping this bulb being advertised as Red Sun would be like a bloom red bulb 3000K. This bulb is literally RED! "

[rwac]

I love this review from some cret. who gave the product one star:

"I was hoping this bulb being advertised as Red Sun would be like a bloom red bulb 3000K. This bulb is literally RED! "

Someone didn't understand "633NM".

Edited by rwac, 06 October 2010 - 01:43 PM.

[UltimaRatio]

Dont you guys worry even a bit, since - correct me if Im wrong - all these increase collagen, but

RA - decreases elastin

vitamin C - decreases elastin

red light - decreases elastin

Infrared, however, increases both elastin and collagen. Too bad that at least infrared 1100 - 1800 nm also causes muscle thinning. Shorter wavelengths shouldnt do that because they dont penetrate deep enough. Longer than that...dunno. In this study they used wavelengths 900 - 1000 µm and got good results:
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../ymj-47-485.pdf

I wonder if a microwave owen is the next skin care innovation...

Edited by UltimaRatio, 06 October 2010 - 02:10 PM.

[matter_of_time]

633 Nm is almost infrared

where do you find the support that red light decreases elastin?

Dont you guys worry even a bit, since - correct me if Im wrong - all these increase collagen, but

RA - decreases elastin

vitamin C - decreases elastin

red light - decreases elastin

Infrared, however, increases both elastin and collagen. Too bad that at least infrared 1100 - 1800 nm also causes muscle thinning. Shorter wavelengths shouldnt do that because they dont penetrate deep enough. Longer than that...dunno. In this study they used wavelengths 900 - 1000 µm and got good results:
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../ymj-47-485.pdf

I wonder if a microwave owen is the next skin care innovation...

Edited by matter_of_time, 06 October 2010 - 03:56 PM.

[UltimaRatio]

633 Nm is almost infrared

where do you find the support that red light decreases elastin?

Dont you guys worry even a bit, since - correct me if Im wrong - all these increase collagen, but

RA - decreases elastin

vitamin C - decreases elastin

red light - decreases elastin

Infrared, however, increases both elastin and collagen. Too bad that at least infrared 1100 - 1800 nm also causes muscle thinning. Shorter wavelengths shouldnt do that because they dont penetrate deep enough. Longer than that...dunno. In this study they used wavelengths 900 - 1000 µm and got good results:
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../ymj-47-485.pdf

I wonder if a microwave owen is the next skin care innovation...

I red a paper about that some time ago. Of course I couldnt find it anymore. In many papers they say nothing about elastin, only collagen is commented. However, in this study both collagen and elastin increased:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17566756

Go figure

Edit. in that study they also used 830 nm wagelegth, so an increase in elastin could be attributed to infrared.

Edited by UltimaRatio, 06 October 2010 - 11:14 PM.

[Ben]

I love this review from some cret. who gave the product one star:

"I was hoping this bulb being advertised as Red Sun would be like a bloom red bulb 3000K. This bulb is literally RED! "

Someone didn't understand "633NM".

"This bulb is literally RED! " WTF!!!1111one!!!!

Who would have though it?

[Alec]

I don't want to sound simplistic about this, but adding amino acids from natural sources along with moderate amounts of vitamins to your diet can help the skin in a bunch of ways. More than a lot of people realize. Whey powder is the best way to do it if you're not a vegetarian. Not amino acid supplements unless you have a health condition that requires more or less of certain amino acids. Whey concentrate only, not whey isolate. About 10 grams of whey a day and no more until results are seen. Then a few times a week. For the vitamins a low dose 100% RDA kind of one daily multi is okay. If non-synthetics are preferred use one of the multis from companies like Innate Response or New Chapter. Don't forget some magnesium as it's an important cofactor in HA synthesis.

Edited by Alec, 04 December 2010 - 02:09 PM.

[TheFountain]

I don't want to sound simplistic about this, but adding amino acids from natural sources along with moderate amounts of vitamins to your diet can help the skin in a bunch of ways. More than a lot of people realize. Whey powder is the best way to do it if you're not a vegetarian. Not amino acid supplements unless you have a health condition that requires more or less of certain amino acids. Whey concentrate only, not whey isolate. About 10 grams of whey a day and no more until results are seen. Then a few times a week. For the vitamins a low dose 100% RDA kind of one daily multi is okay. If non-synthetics are preferred use one of the multis from companies like Innate Response or New Chapter. Don't forget some magnesium as it's an important cofactor in HA synthesis.

Can you go into how adding amino acids helps your skin in a 'bunch of ways'?

I know about l-proline and l-lysine being precursors of the hydroxy forms of both and them being constituents of collagen, but that's about it.

Edited by TheFountain, 04 December 2010 - 05:06 PM.

[Alec]

Because amino acids are important for many parts of the ECM and they can require other amino acids for synthesis. It isn't only about collagen. I keep hearing about collagen everywhere but it's only one of many components of healthy skin. Elastin is important as well and is made up of many amino acids. For example the proline that you mentioned is made by glutamic acid.

Edited by Alec, 04 December 2010 - 10:23 PM.

[TheFountain]

Because amino acids are important for many parts of the ECM and they can require other amino acids for synthesis. It isn't only about collagen. I keep hearing about collagen everywhere but it's only one of many components of healthy skin. Elastin is important as well and is made up of many amino acids. For example the proline that you mentioned is made by glutamic acid.

So what would taking regular supplemental doses of BCAA's accomplish?

[Alec]

Because amino acids are important for many parts of the ECM and they can require other amino acids for synthesis. It isn't only about collagen. I keep hearing about collagen everywhere but it's only one of many components of healthy skin. Elastin is important as well and is made up of many amino acids. For example the proline that you mentioned is made by glutamic acid.

So what would taking regular supplemental doses of BCAA's accomplish?

I was suggesting whey as a natural source of amino acids, not BCAA supplements. Whey has many more amino acids besides the BCAAs. And it's also a good source of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin which are important to the immune system.

[TheFountain]

Because amino acids are important for many parts of the ECM and they can require other amino acids for synthesis. It isn't only about collagen. I keep hearing about collagen everywhere but it's only one of many components of healthy skin. Elastin is important as well and is made up of many amino acids. For example the proline that you mentioned is made by glutamic acid.

So what would taking regular supplemental doses of BCAA's accomplish?

I was suggesting whey as a natural source of amino acids, not BCAA supplements. Whey has many more amino acids besides the BCAAs. And it's also a good source of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin which are important to the immune system.

I know you weren't, I was just wondering what the effects of supplementing those amino acids would be on the extracellular matrix.

[Alec]

Because amino acids are important for many parts of the ECM and they can require other amino acids for synthesis. It isn't only about collagen. I keep hearing about collagen everywhere but it's only one of many components of healthy skin. Elastin is important as well and is made up of many amino acids. For example the proline that you mentioned is made by glutamic acid.

So what would taking regular supplemental doses of BCAA's accomplish?

I was suggesting whey as a natural source of amino acids, not BCAA supplements. Whey has many more amino acids besides the BCAAs. And it's also a good source of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin which are important to the immune system.

I know you weren't, I was just wondering what the effects of supplementing those amino acids would be on the extracellular matrix.

Sorry about the late replies. Okay, please read these documents. You'll see why amino acids are helpful to the ECM and the role of hyaluronan (HA) as well.

1. Enhancement of fibroblast proliferation, collagen biosynthesis and production of growth factors as a result of combining sodium hyaluronate and aminoacids

2. Lactoferrin promotes hyaluronan synthesis in human
dermal fibroblasts

3. Proline Precursors to Sustain Mammalian Collagen Synthesis

Edited by Alec, 10 December 2010 - 03:51 AM.

[TheFountain]

Because amino acids are important for many parts of the ECM and they can require other amino acids for synthesis. It isn't only about collagen. I keep hearing about collagen everywhere but it's only one of many components of healthy skin. Elastin is important as well and is made up of many amino acids. For example the proline that you mentioned is made by glutamic acid.

So what would taking regular supplemental doses of BCAA's accomplish?

I was suggesting whey as a natural source of amino acids, not BCAA supplements. Whey has many more amino acids besides the BCAAs. And it's also a good source of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin which are important to the immune system.

I know you weren't, I was just wondering what the effects of supplementing those amino acids would be on the extracellular matrix.

Sorry about the late replies. Okay, please read these documents. You'll see why amino acids are helpful to the ECM and the role of hyaluronan (HA) as well.

1. Enhancement of fibroblast proliferation, collagen biosynthesis and production of growth factors as a result of combining sodium hyaluronate and aminoacids

2. Lactoferrin promotes hyaluronan synthesis in human
dermal fibroblasts

3. Proline Precursors to Sustain Mammalian Collagen Synthesis

The last link is interestng because it disccusses certain enzymatic pathways which are responsible for inflammation reactions and how they relate to specific amino acid effects and their healing process on those pathways. Maybe a deficiency of said precursors is why so many older adults (particularly male adults) experience skin inflammation (the formation of red blotchy skin) and also, I wonder the effect of chronic alchohol consumption on these pathways and its effect on collagen biosynthesis. Overall it looks like ornithine is sited the most positively as proline precursor in that last analysis. Particularly OKG supplementation seems promising according to their observations.

[Alec]

Well, in my opinion it's better to get all of the amino acids from a natural source rather than individually or in groups. Perhaps proline is more effective when combined with the other amino acids than by itself.

Glutamic acid to proline: biosynthesis of proline

Edited by Alec, 14 December 2010 - 05:02 PM.

[nowayout]

retinoids - i use Tretinoin

Tretinoin thins the skin IME. The only reason why it (temporarily) reduces wrinkles is because it dries the skin out so it gets tighter, again IME. YMMV.

Fraxel laser?
Thermage?

Edited by viveutvivas, 26 September 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[JLL]

retinoids - i use Tretinoin

Tretinoin thins the skin IME. The only reason why it (temporarily) reduces wrinkles is because it dries the skin out so it gets tighter, again IME. YMMV.

Fraxel laser?
Thermage?

Even though retinoids actually thin the stratum corneum – the strong, flexible and dry outermost surface of the skin – they thicken the epidermis and the dermis underneath it (link).

The Forgotten Anti-Aging Classic: Retinoids Are the Skin's Best Friend