74 replies to this topic

[niner]

This very interesting study induced telomerase in mice with modified viruses. They report a 24% increase in lifespan and no increase in cancers.

-?? I've read several times on this board that mice have super-long telomeres to begin with. -?

Rats have telomeres long enough for several lifetimes. Even when telomerase was experimentally deleted from their chromosomes, it didn't hurt them. Not right away--

In humans, both in vivo and in vitro, telomere shortening appears to be a major component of cell senescence and ageing ...However, this is less apparent in mice because of the very long telomeres (30–150 kb). Telomere shortening has been extensively studied in mice, especially in telomerase-deficient knockout mice. In these mice, the critical RNA component of telomerase, mTERC, has been inactivated by homologous recombination. However, it is only after four to six generations that telomere shortening really becomes an issue.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC149817/

We might be overestimating the robustness of mouse telomeres. Check out this post and refs therein. Blasco's group is saying that mouse telomeres shorten at 100 times the rate of humans(!) (really?)

[PWAIN]

We might be overestimating the robustness of mouse telomeres. Check out this post and refs therein. Blasco's group is saying that mouse telomeres shorten at 100 times the rate of humans(!) (really?)

If this is true, mice do not seem like a particuarly good model for testing purposes. It there any other relativly short lived mamals that have telemeres more like humans?

[xEva]

We might be overestimating the robustness of mouse telomeres. Check out this post and refs therein. Blasco's group is saying that mouse telomeres shorten at 100 times the rate of humans(!) (really?)

Wow! Thanks niner for pointing this out. I totally missed it. These little critters do live at high pace. 420-600 heartbeats and 220 breaths per minute, 10% body weight loss in 24h-fast.. and now this. We must appear to them as slow-moving, dim-witted sloths, lol


@PWAIN, I still think they make an excellent model, we just have to keep these differences in mind when applying mouse studies to ourselves (which most people have not been doing).

[xEva]

PS

This little piece of info has finally settled my doubts about the safety of telomerase inducers. We've been hearing for years on end that mice are prone to cancer because their telomeres are so long. Apparently not so. This and the post I saw recently about a human genetic disorder in which telomeres are not maintained -- paradoxically, it too results in much higher incidence of cancer. It appears, the old paradigm about cancer and telomeres was not quite right -?

[Kevnzworld]

PS

This little piece of info has finally settled my doubts about the safety of telomerase inducers. We've been hearing for years on end that mice are prone to cancer because their telomeres are so long. Apparently not so. This and the post I saw recently about a human genetic disorder in which telomeres are not maintained -- paradoxically, it too results in much higher incidence of cancer. It appears, the old paradigm about cancer and telomeres was not quite right -?

I think it's important to differentiate between substances and activities that maintain telomeres and mitigate their attrition ( anti carcinogenic ) versus telomerase inducers. I don't think it's yet been established conclusively that telomerase inducers wouldn't promote existing cancer.

[Logic]

my take on this is that if the DNA strand is in good condition, with telomeres left; lengthening said telomeres is all good.
If the DNA strand has 'glitches' for whatever reason; lengthening the telomeres is immortalising a cell that should have apoptosed and you have problems.

So its a question of how to kill of senescent, pre-cancerous and cancerous cells before turning on telomerase in the remaining healthy cells.

http://www.longecity...signs-of-aging/

[GreenPower]

Link to Jim Green's results with Solgar Astragalus Root Extract:
http://www.longecity...530#entry485926
Thx Turnbuckle.

Just a quick link to vitamins and telomeres:
http://www.naturalne..._nutrition.html

Dont know how good the references are yet

I think the link you provided is for my results rather than Jim Greens. When trying his site, http://greenwood.s5.com, I currently get the message "The site you are looking for, greenwood.s5.com has been temporarily disabled".
I see he stills posts at https://www.youtube....JimGreenHimself where there's a link to http://greenray4ever.com/home.html

[marcobjj]

This very interesting study induced telomerase in mice with modified viruses. They report a 24% increase in lifespan and no increase in cancers.

http://scitechdaily....lifespan-by-24/

-?? I've read several times on this board that mice have super-long telomeres to begin with. -?

Thanks for your response, turnbuckle. But I still do not understand. I thought their telomeres were so long that they never ran out. If this is so, how extending telomeres length increased their lifespan? Unless those mice were engineered to have short telomeres, which is unclear from the quote. Have anyone read the study?

mice do run out, mostly because of their very fast heart rate (400 to 600bpm) meaning their cells take a larger amount of free radical damage due to their much higher oxygen supply, hence their short lifespans.

there's an excellent BBC doc (you can find it on youtube) about life extension. They relate the heart rate to lifespan, Tortoises have between 8 and 20 bpm and go on to live over 200 years; mice have 400bmp have a lifespan of 30 months. As humans we stand in between.

so what I'm trying to say is that mice do need much longer telomeres because they break down at a much faster rate than most species.

[Matt79]

For those that don't know Jim Green, here are his latest thoughts on telomeres,astragalus and TA-65 ( May 18 2012 ).. His website is a valuable resource for anti aging science.

http://greenray4ever...ychangelog.html

Interesting site. He has two pictures of himself, taken a year apart, in which his hair has changed from gray to a youthful color, and not just a small improvement. It looks like what would happen if you used hair dye. He says that he applied astragalus extracts to his scalp, along with oral use. I'd like to believe that this works, but it really falls into the category of "extraordinary claim". He's put more personal experimentation into telomerase activation than anyone I've run across, so I'm not dismissing his result out of hand, but I'd sure like to hear exactly how he did it, and see it replicated.

The man is clearly dedicated which we can respect. However, in my experience there seems to be a fine line between a genuine lone pioneer, and the confirmation-bias ridden crackpot.

N=1 is a potential issue. Does anyone know about his reputation outside his self-published website? Not making a judgement yet, but some more evidence would be great. I agree with niner, that It does seem potentially interesting, but of course their are opportunity costs at play. (Don't have hours to spend investigating something that may have a low probability for a positive payoff)

[Kevnzworld]

For those that don't know Jim Green, here are his latest thoughts on telomeres,astragalus and TA-65 ( May 18 2012 ).. His website is a valuable resource for anti aging science.

http://greenray4ever...ychangelog.html

Interesting site. He has two pictures of himself, taken a year apart, in which his hair has changed from gray to a youthful color, and not just a small improvement. It looks like what would happen if you used hair dye.
He says that he applied astragalus extracts to his scalp, along with oral use. I'd like to believe that this works, but it really falls into the category of "extraordinary claim". He's put more personal experimentation into telomerase activation than anyone I've run across, so I'm not dismissing his result out of hand, but I'd sure like to hear exactly how he did it, and see it replicated.

The man is clearly dedicated which we can respect. However, in my experience there seems to be a fine line between a genuine lone pioneer, and the confirmation-bias ridden crackpot.

N=1 is a potential issue. Does anyone know about his reputation outside his self-published website? Not making a judgement yet, but some more evidence would be great. I agree with niner, that It does seem potentially interesting, but of course their are opportunity costs at play. (Don't have hours to spend investigating something that may have a low probability for a positive payoff)

He doesn't seem to post on Longevity as far as I can tell. I spent a day reading his website, and he is definately well researched.
Here are some other sites I find interesting:
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/
http://high-fat-nutr...-results=39&m=1
http://www.benbest.c...eext/aging.html
http://www.frontiers...netics_of_Aging
http://extremelongevity.net/

[aaaaaaal]

Omega 3 could also help preserve telomere length:

http://www.webmd.com...-heart-patients
http://www.naturalne...s_lifespan.html

[marcobjj]

For those that don't know Jim Green, here are his latest thoughts on telomeres,astragalus and TA-65 ( May 18 2012 ).. His website is a valuable resource for anti aging science.

http://greenray4ever...ychangelog.html

Interesting site. He has two pictures of himself, taken a year apart, in which his hair has changed from gray to a youthful color, and not just a small improvement. It looks like what would happen if you used hair dye. He says that he applied astragalus extracts to his scalp, along with oral use. I'd like to believe that this works, but it really falls into the category of "extraordinary claim". He's put more personal experimentation into telomerase activation than anyone I've run across, so I'm not dismissing his result out of hand, but I'd sure like to hear exactly how he did it, and see it replicated.

The man is clearly dedicated which we can respect. However, in my experience there seems to be a fine line between a genuine lone pioneer, and the confirmation-bias ridden crackpot.

N=1 is a potential issue. Does anyone know about his reputation outside his self-published website? Not making a judgement yet, but some more evidence would be great. I agree with niner, that It does seem potentially interesting, but of course their are opportunity costs at play. (Don't have hours to spend investigating something that may have a low probability for a positive payoff)

Jim Green admitted to have dyed his hair on his website, and I agree there's a strong component of confirmation bias in his experiment.First off he believes he looks early 40s which I find it pretty funny even with the blurry after pics he posts of himself he looks 50s at the very least. Also there's a video where he says his telomeres are rejuvenating at a rate of 400 base pairs a year even though on his website there's no mention of doing any telemore measurement test.

Edited by marcobjj, 23 January 2013 - 01:20 PM.

[niner]

Jim Green admitted to have dyed his hair on his website, and I agree there's a strong component of confirmation bias in his experiment.First off he believes he looks early 40s which I find it pretty funny even with the blurry after pics he posts of himself he looks 50s at the very least. Also there's a video where he says his telomeres are rejuvenating at a rate of 400 base pairs a year even though on his website there's no mention of doing any telemore measurement test.

Thanks for clearing that up, Marco. A fine line indeed...

[marcobjj]

np niner, as far as the aplication of astragalus extract to the scalp helping to reverse grey hair. I can tell it doesn't work just based on the fact the astragaloside IV has a molecular weight of 784.97 dalton, that's too large to be absorbed by the skin (molecules have to be under 500 dalton). So only pure cycloastragenol is small enough to be effectively absorbed. You'd think a scientist like Jim Green would do proper research on these things.

[stephen_b]

I was under the impression that you can get at least some absorption out of something that size. I'm not super familiar with the anatomy of a hair follicle. Maybe getting to the root of the follicle is easier than transdermal penetration?

[marcobjj]

the shunts in the follicle are no larger than other passages such as sweat pores and sebaceus glands.

[niner]

the shunts in the follicle are no larger than other passages such as sweat pores and sebaceus glands.

But the main barrier to penetration is the stratum corneum- the outermost 'dead' layer of cells. The hair follicles, (and presumably the sweat pores and sebaceus glands), although they occupy a very small area, appear to be responsible for a significant amount of skin penetration, at least for small molecules. I don't know if the same size restrictions apply to follicular penetration as to stratum corneum, but it at least seems plausible that larger compounds could slip through. The molecular weight is only part of the equation. Hydrophobicity is also important, with hydrophobes being more skin penetrant. Size and shape will also play a role.

[Hebbeh]

http://www.scienceda...30123133852.htm

[niner]

http://www.scienceda...30123133852.htm

This little bit at the end was interesting:

Furthermore, it is calculated that there are currently more than 10,000 people in the world on some form of controlled caloric restriction, so the observation of these individuals will be decisive in discovering the effects of this type of diet on humans.

I'm not sure how you'd calculate that...

[marcobjj]

the shunts in the follicle are no larger than other passages such as sweat pores and sebaceus glands.

But the main barrier to penetration is the stratum corneum- the outermost 'dead' layer of cells. The hair follicles, (and presumably the sweat pores and sebaceus glands), although they occupy a very small area, appear to be responsible for a significant amount of skin penetration, at least for small molecules. I don't know if the same size restrictions apply to follicular penetration as to stratum corneum, but it at least seems plausible that larger compounds could slip through. The molecular weight is only part of the equation. Hydrophobicity is also important, with hydrophobes being more skin penetrant. Size and shape will also play a role.

the reason I brought this info up because I prepare my own home lotions and sunscreen, and every site I've read the rule of the thumb is to not mix anything over 500 dalton as it won't get through the skin. So I imagine it's all already factored in - the streatum corneum, follicies and pores. Who knows for sure but given the fact that Jim has now restorted to dying his hair after applying astragalus to his scalp for 5 years I think people are better off not spending the extra money. imho

[niner]

the shunts in the follicle are no larger than other passages such as sweat pores and sebaceus glands.

But the main barrier to penetration is the stratum corneum- the outermost 'dead' layer of cells. The hair follicles, (and presumably the sweat pores and sebaceus glands), although they occupy a very small area, appear to be responsible for a significant amount of skin penetration, at least for small molecules. I don't know if the same size restrictions apply to follicular penetration as to stratum corneum, but it at least seems plausible that larger compounds could slip through. The molecular weight is only part of the equation. Hydrophobicity is also important, with hydrophobes being more skin penetrant. Size and shape will also play a role.

the reason I brought this info up because I prepare my own home lotions and sunscreen, and every site I've read the rule of the thumb is to not mix anything over 500 dalton as it won't get through the skin. So I imagine it's all already factored in - the streatum corneum, follicies and pores. Who knows for sure but given the fact that Jim has now restorted to dying his hair after applying astragalus to his scalp for 5 years I think people are better off not spending the extra money. imho

I was thinking that for compounds that you are trying to put into the hair follicle, you MIGHT have a chance with something heavier. Some people are obsessed with the idea of using transdermal absorption as a way to get systemic exposure to a drug, but with a few exceptions (very high potency, and low MW, AND sufficiently hydrophobic; e.g. fentanyl or nicotine), this rarely works. As you point out, 500 daltons is a rule of thumb, but it's not a strict cutoff. It doesn't mean that 499 works and 501 doesn't. Given the right shape and hydrophobicity, you can go significantly beyond 500, e.g. fullerenes.

[Logic]

np niner, as far as the aplication of astragalus extract to the scalp helping to reverse grey hair. I can tell it doesn't work just based on the fact the astragaloside IV has a molecular weight of 784.97 dalton, that's too large to be absorbed by the skin (molecules have to be under 500 dalton). So only pure cycloastragenol is small enough to be effectively absorbed. You'd think a scientist like Jim Green would do proper research on these things.

Also astragalus extract would contain a tiny amount of cycloastragenol and other small or smaller molecules, would'nt it?

It just occured to me that the skin would act as a 'seive' that let the smaller molecules, from an excess amount of extract, through...
This may just lead to an effective dose getting to where one wants it, while excluding the ineffective stuff..?

Niner pointed out that: "the main barrier to penetration is the stratum corneum- the outermost 'dead' layer of cells".
I already use a home-made scrub. (seived, boiled sand + astragalus etc. etc.)
Does anyone think that adding some to my shampoo (similar mix - sand) may help/work??

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ginkgo biloba extract reduces endothelial progenitor-cell senescence through augmentation of telomerase activity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17312453

Edited by Logic, 24 January 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[marcobjj]

np niner, as far as the aplication of astragalus extract to the scalp helping to reverse grey hair. I can tell it doesn't work just based on the fact the astragaloside IV has a molecular weight of 784.97 dalton, that's too large to be absorbed by the skin (molecules have to be under 500 dalton). So only pure cycloastragenol is small enough to be effectively absorbed. You'd think a scientist like Jim Green would do proper research on these things.

Also astragalus extract would contain a tiny amount of cycloastragenol and other small or smaller molecules, would'nt it?

It just occured to me that the skin would act as a 'seive' that let the smaller molecules, from an excess amount of extract, through...
This may just lead to an effective dose getting to where one wants it, while excluding the ineffective stuff..?

there probably isnt a significant amount of free cycloastragenol in Astragalus extract, it needs to be hydrolased off Astragaloside IV.

Does anyone think that adding some to my shampoo (similar mix - sand) may help/work??

be the judge, pics taken 1 year apart. to me it looks the same once you discount blur and the wet hair in the 2nd pic.

Edited by marcobjj, 24 January 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[niner]

Does anyone think that adding some to my shampoo (similar mix - sand) may help/work??

be the judge, pics taken 1 year apart. to me it looks the same once you discount blur and the wet hair in the 2nd pic.

I thought he admitted to dying his hair. Aside from the preposterous lack of focus, it sure looks dyed to me. At this point in time, I think adding astragalus to shampoo would be pretty much pointless. Maybe it would dilute the sand, which seems like it would be a plus...

[marcobjj]

on the latest blog entry he says he died his hair. The pics above are from 2010 and 2011 respectively.

http://greenray4ever...s2012dec31.html

[stephen_b]

From the link, he wrote that he did dye his hair, but not for the pictures in reply #53 above.

[Kevnzworld]

From Jim Green's blog, Dec 31 2012
" So for these recent pictures I dyed my hair prior to returning to astragalus extract treatment of my scalp. The earlier before and after pictures of my hair using astralus extract did not include any hair dye. "

As I read through his update I was interested to see that he now believes the vitamin D is a telomerase inhibitor.
He notes that as an anti inflammatory it preserves telomere length though.
Here are his supporting notes on it.
http://greenray4ever....html#VITAMIND3

Edited by Kevnzworld, 25 January 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[niner]

From Jim Green's blog, Dec 31 2012
" So for these recent pictures I dyed my hair prior to returning to astragalus extract treatment of my scalp. The earlier before and after pictures of my hair using astralus extract did not include any hair dye. "

I wonder if he has any idea that people all over the freaking planet are discussing that hideously out of focus, poorly lit picture of what might be wet hair. If it was that dark from astragalus, then why did he dye it? I await replication, preferably from someone who has mastered the baffling technology known as the "camera".

[marcobjj]

give the guy a break, he does great camera work 50% of the time (in the before pics)

[stephen_b]

Blur filter? It would be interesting if that could be detected.

Edited by stephen_b, 25 January 2013 - 11:40 PM.