• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
* * * - - 10 votes

God Is Theoretically Possible


  • Please log in to reply
774 replies to this topic

#271 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 10 November 2011 - 08:51 PM

I agree with part of your first statement. Your third statement is like saying there may be a correct answer but no one has it. How do you know? You must have something you are drawing your conclusion from.

“If there is a God, make yourself known to me,’ is difficult when “there is nothing shown anywhere that is proof enough for me,” comes in the same sentence. You won’t accept anything. These words I myself have said.
:mellow:



That’s just it, I don't know if there is or isn't a god any more than a Muslim or Christian knows if their version of belief is correct.

The reason why I don't believe in a god is because I have no evidence that any god exists let alone a particular religion's version. I would love to believe in a god and know it exists, especially the Christian version, but I cannot believe in something just 'because'. I need to have a reason to believe and I can't rationalize believing in some being that is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful.

Honestly, from my perspective if we take any of these arguments or discussions in this thread and replaced the word 'god' with the word 'flying spaghetti monster', it would mean the exact same thing to me. How can I believe in a flying spaghetti monster without proof?

If I repeated some of the claims and arguments in this thread using a word other than 'god', especially if I used something silly like 'Flying Purple People Eater', I suspect at some point and time someone would try to have me committed for being insane. It’s funny though that we can accept these words, statements, and arguments when someone uses the word 'god' instead.


This conversation reminds me of this debate.


#272 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 10 November 2011 - 11:31 PM

The guy making rather stupid & unfounded arguments for God is also rather smug.

#273 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 11 November 2011 - 08:57 PM

The guy making rather stupid & unfounded arguments for God is also rather smug.

I have noticed that rather than answer issues, many atheists resort, such as here, to calling names. Here is an Atheists putting all the attributes of God off onto a factious computer! How about saying the computer has the attributes of a chicken and then claiming this disproves chickens. It is really stupid and unfounded to make such a claim. Craig’s point. Was He smug? I guess smugness is in the eye of the beholder. I don’t think he is.

Want to see Craig with some top atheists to see how smug he is?

http://www.longecity...tes-in-england/

#274 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:58 PM

Seriously Shadowhawk, do you have any evidence for gods in the here & now, without having to make baseless claims about the purported origins of the observable universe? Have you witnessed a supernatural event? Do gods talk to you? Does it look like that gods talk to people in general? If so, how come god gives conflicting messages to people? (for example Jahve who gives conflicting information to present-day jews, christians, jehova's witnesses and mormons - exactly what would happen if god was a mirage).

edit: and WTF is an "evolutionist"?

Edited by platypus, 11 November 2011 - 10:01 PM.


#275 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 14 November 2011 - 09:52 PM

Seriously Shadowhawk, do you have any evidence for gods in the here & now, without having to make baseless claims about the purported origins of the observable universe? Have you witnessed a supernatural event? Do gods talk to you? Does it look like that gods talk to people in general? If so, how come god gives conflicting messages to people? (for example Jahve who gives conflicting information to present-day jews, christians, jehova's witnesses and mormons - exactly what would happen if god was a mirage).

edit: and WTF is an "evolutionist"?


Since you never state what kind of evidence you accept and leave it to the here and now it seems this leaves out anything historical. Perhaps this is why anything that has a past appears unacceptable to you. Change as an evidence of a beginning is out of the picture. So it appears we are limited to the present but still no idea of what kind of evidence you accept.

So I will give my own testimony and Subjective experience. One third of the world has been Baptized so something objective is going on. Add to this millions of other religious who have also had a subjective experience of God and it is an overwhelming human sense that there is something more than just the physical world. I join with them. I have chosen “Christian” as my choice of what that something is. This is a choice that seems to drive atheists crazy. I know, because I was an atheist.
http://www.longecity...post__p__481492

When as an Atheist I prayed, “God, if there is a God, I put my very small faith in you.” it was a huge step. I was riding in the back of a bus, in a rain storm, going into Providence Rhode Island. I could barely believe. There is an old proverb that says “A man with an experience is never at the mercy of one with an argument.” No matter what the argument, I fell in love with God and my life has never been the same. I know this proof is subjective and if I had no subjective experience, I would be agnostic. Having seen hundreds come to faith in Christ I know objectively this happens to others. It could even happen to you.

God speaks in many ways. Love doesn’t require a lot of words. The love of God sets your heart aflame with God. I have talked about this love elsewhere. It is an incredible experience.
http://www.longecity...post__p__482071

God also speaks through the Scripture. Anyone that wants to know if God loves you, the answer is in the Scripture. Simply start with John 3:16 if you have a Bible. God speaks through circumstance. Things change through both the good and bad. Doors open and close. God whispers in a still small voice to those who are silent and listen.

God is dynamic and though He does not change, we do. Some kinds of speech remain the same, such as the Scripture and Liturgy. Other things change. It is kind of like Marriage. We get married, remember special days, but live a dynamic love life. No two marriages are the same. Why? So is it with Gods relationship with each of us. We are unique. I could go on but don’t want to write to much.

#276 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 14 November 2011 - 10:23 PM

platypus

edit: and WTF is an "evolutionist"?


evolutionist [ˌiːvəˈluːʃənɪst]
n
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) a person who believes in a theory of evolution, esp Darwin's theory of the evolution of plant and animal species
adj
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) of or relating to a theory of evolution
evolutionism n
evolutionistic adj
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
Relax, need more help?

#277 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:38 AM

platypus

edit: and WTF is an "evolutionist"?


evolutionist [ˌiːvəˈluːʃənɪst]
n
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) a person who believes in a theory of evolution, esp Darwin's theory of the evolution of plant and animal species
adj
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) of or relating to a theory of evolution
evolutionism n
evolutionistic adj
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
Relax, need more help?

Well ok, even though any reasonable person with half of a working brain sees immediately that evolution explains an awful lot of things in biology and that nothing makes sense without it.

#278 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 15 November 2011 - 12:34 PM

Seriously Shadowhawk, do you have any evidence for gods in the here & now, without having to make baseless claims about the purported origins of the observable universe? Have you witnessed a supernatural event? Do gods talk to you? Does it look like that gods talk to people in general? If so, how come god gives conflicting messages to people? (for example Jahve who gives conflicting information to present-day jews, christians, jehova's witnesses and mormons - exactly what would happen if god was a mirage).

edit: and WTF is an "evolutionist"?


Since you never state what kind of evidence you accept and leave it to the here and now it seems this leaves out anything historical. Perhaps this is why anything that has a past appears unacceptable to you. Change as an evidence of a beginning is out of the picture. So it appears we are limited to the present but still no idea of what kind of evidence you accept.


For example information received directly from God and verified from an independent source, divine interventions & obvious miracles etc. It would also be nice if the people worshipping the same god would receive the same information about right beliefs and doctrine from him. Jews, Christians, Mormons and Jehova's witnesses worship Jahve but isn't it curious that Jahve doesn't tell these people which is the right doctrine? By the way this is exatly what would happen in Jahve was a mirage in the brain.

So I will give my own testimony and Subjective experience. One third of the world has been Baptized so something objective is going on. Add to this millions of other religious who have also had a subjective experience of God and it is an overwhelming human sense that there is something more than just the physical world. I join with them. I have chosen “Christian” as my choice of what that something is. This is a choice that seems to drive atheists crazy. I know, because I was an atheist.

Well it is crazy in the sense that other huge religions have an equally valid claim that their belief-system is the correct one. God does not seem to want to communicate to people what he really is like and people should believe as religions contradict one another. This is exactly what would happen if gods were only mirages in the brain.

When as an Atheist I prayed, “God, if there is a God, I put my very small faith in you.” it was a huge step. I was riding in the back of a bus, in a rain storm, going into Providence Rhode Island. I could barely believe. There is an old proverb that says “A man with an experience is never at the mercy of one with an argument.” No matter what the argument, I fell in love with God and my life has never been the same. I know this proof is subjective and if I had no subjective experience, I would be agnostic. Having seen hundreds come to faith in Christ I know objectively this happens to others. It could even happen to you.

So you got some peculiar feeling on a bus that made you believe? There are millions that found other faiths through the same method, which is a bit contradictory. A mirage in the brain explains these controversies nicely.

God speaks in many ways. Love doesn’t require a lot of words. The love of God sets your heart aflame with God. I have talked about this love elsewhere. It is an incredible experience.

So have you ever received direct communication from God? Words, sentences, information or other such things? Do you have any experiences that tell you that God is a person communicating with you, i.e. something more concrete than feeling/projection?

God also speaks through the Scripture. Anyone that wants to know if God loves you, the answer is in the Scripture. Simply start with John 3:16 if you have a Bible. God speaks through circumstance. Things change through both the good and bad. Doors open and close. God whispers in a still small voice to those who are silent and listen.

The answer is the the Bhagavad Gita or Torah too, so the scriptural argument is not convincing. BTW many years back I really tried to find out whether this god-business was real - I even went to a bible-study group for a couple of years to find out. I just didn't had gods in my brain, so it didn't work for me at all. Many people have the same experience as I did and it's as valid as the Christian experience is.

#279 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 15 November 2011 - 10:45 PM

Posted Today, 04:34 AM

View Postshadowhawk, on 14 November 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

View Postplatypus, on 11 November 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:
Seriously Shadowhawk, do you have any evidence for gods in the here & now, without having to make baseless claims about the purported origins of the observable universe? Have you witnessed a supernatural event? Do gods talk to you? Does it look like that gods talk to people in general? If so, how come god gives conflicting messages to people? (for example Jahve who gives conflicting information to present-day jews, christians, jehova's witnesses and mormons - exactly what would happen if god was a mirage).

edit: and WTF is an "evolutionist"?
--------------------------------------------------
Shadowhawk:
Since you never state what kind of evidence you accept and leave it to the here and now it seems this leaves out anything historical. Perhaps this is why anything that has a past appears unacceptable to you. Change as an evidence of a beginning is out of the picture. So it appears we are limited to the present but still no idea of what kind of evidence you accept.

platypus:
For example information received directly from God and verified from an independent source, divine interventions & obvious miracles etc. It would also be nice if the people worshipping the same god would receive the same information about right beliefs and doctrine from him. Jews, Christians, Mormons and Jehova's witnesses worship Jahve but isn't it curious that Jahve doesn't tell these people which is the right doctrine? By the way this is exatly what would happen in Jahve was a mirage in the brain.


“Jahve,” is the name of a demon who has been misleading humanity for ages. In Hebrew - I will use the English transliteration Jehovah - as the name of God which refers to the Jewish - Christian God. As far as I know Christians Jews, Mormons and Jehovah Witness’s all know the difference.

Do you accept eye witness accounts as evidence? You seen to think something as complex as the creator of the universe would have everyone believe exactly the same. Imposing this kind of moronic view on people of faith is silly. What field of science has everyone saying the same thing. There isn’t even agreement on what science is. As I said, each of us is unique and it comes as no surprise we all have different experiences. We don’t and that doesn’t mean there is something wrong with them. You disagree, does that mean something is wrong with your brain. Having a mirage are you?

Shadowhawk:
So I will give my own testimony and Subjective experience. One third of the world has been Baptized so something objective is going on. Add to this millions of other religious who have also had a subjective experience of God and it is an overwhelming human sense that there is something more than just the physical world. I join with them. I have chosen “Christian” as my choice of what that something is. This is a choice that seems to drive atheists crazy. I know, because I was an atheist.
Well it is crazy in the sense that other huge religions have an equally valid claim that their belief-system is the correct one. God does not seem to want to communicate to people what he really is like and people should believe as religions contradict one another. This is exactly what would happen if gods were only mirages in the brain.
Shadowhawk:------------------
When as an Atheist I prayed, “God, if there is a God, I put my very small faith in you.” it was a huge step. I was riding in the back of a bus, in a rain storm, going into Providence Rhode Island. I could barely believe. There is an old proverb that says “A man with an experience is never at the mercy of one with an argument.” No matter what the argument, I fell in love with God and my life has never been the same. I know this proof is subjective and if I had no subjective experience, I would be agnostic. Having seen hundreds come to faith in Christ I know objectively this happens to others. It could even happen to you.
platypus: --------------------------
So you got some peculiar feeling on a bus that made you believe? There are millions that found other faiths through the same method, which is a bit contradictory. A mirage in the brain explains these controversies nicely.


That is your baseless illusion. Where is your evidence? You could make that silly comment about anything.

Shadowhawk:
God speaks in many ways. Love doesn’t require a lot of words. The love of God sets your heart aflame with God. I have talked about this love elsewhere. It is an incredible experience.
platypus:------------------------
So have you ever received direct communication from God? Words, sentences, information or other such things? Do you have any experiences that tell you that God is a person communicating with you, i.e. something more concrete than feeling/projection?


I am always aware of the presence of God. Have you ever been in a dark room and knew someone else is there. God is Devine spirit and we experience Him spiritually. I have already told you of many ways God communicates with us, so no use repeating it again.

God remains partly hidden perhaps for a reason. People claim to search for God often just give lip service to it. They don’t want to really consider whether there is a God. They don’t want to find Him and they won’t. No amount or kind of evidence will suffice because faith, though supplied to what we don’t know, is strongly influenced by fact. When I was a child I used to play by asking, “why,” to everything someone said. What was so fun about the question was there was no end to it. We have to ask the right kind of question and no answer will be exhaustive. There are many kinds of questions like this. What is love, what is beauty, what is truth?


Shadowhawk:
God also speaks through the Scripture. Anyone that wants to know if God loves you, the answer is in the Scripture. Simply start with John 3:16 if you have a Bible. God speaks through circumstance. Things change through both the good and bad. Doors open and close. God whispers in a still small voice to those who are silent and listen.
Platypus:------------------
The answer is the the Bhagavad Gita or Torah too, so the scriptural argument is not convincing. BTW many years back I really tried to find out whether this god-business was real - I even went to a bible-study group for a couple of years to find out. I just didn't had gods in my brain, so it didn't work for me at all. Many people have the same experience as I did and it's as valid as the Christian experience is.


What answer? I don’t know your experience so I won’t judge you as you have others. Maybe you had brain fog, or were insincere. I can’t speak for you. People separate themselves from God for many reasons. You even went to a bible study! No God in your heart. OK. And that is evidence of....

The point is that there a lot of people who don’t want to know God, and God chooses not to violate their freedom by forcing himself on them. God wants a relationship – he wants you to respond to him. (See Matthew 7:7-8)

#280 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:20 AM

Do you accept eye witness accounts as evidence? You seen to think something as complex as the creator of the universe would have everyone believe exactly the same. Imposing this kind of moronic view on people of faith is silly.

Eyewitness evidence is contradictory - the Judeo-Christian God "talks" to people in different faiths (that's what adherents claim) but their doctrines are not converging. For example, don't you think it would be important for Jehova to mention to jews that the Messiah already arrived two millennia ago? Apparently not. This is indirect evidence that Jehova does not exist.

So you got some peculiar feeling on a bus that made you believe? There are millions that found other faiths through the same method, which is a bit contradictory. A mirage in the brain explains these controversies nicely.


That is your baseless illusion. Where is your evidence? You could make that silly comment about anything.

My evidence is the millions of people that turn into other religions because of what they feel. What makes you think your perceptions, feelings and reasoning are reliable enough in spiritual matters to justify your beliefs in gods?

So have you ever received direct communication from God? Words, sentences, information or other such things? Do you have any experiences that tell you that God is a person communicating with you, i.e. something more concrete than feeling/projection?


I am always aware of the presence of God. Have you ever been in a dark room and knew someone else is there. God is Devine spirit and we experience Him spiritually. I have already told you of many ways God communicates with us, so no use repeating it again.

And how do you know those feeling are flowing from an outside source that you call god? I also have spiritual feelings but I see no reason to believe that the source of them is external to me. Gods are an unnecessary projection.

Shadowhawk:
God also speaks through the Scripture. Anyone that wants to know if God loves you, the answer is in the Scripture. Simply start with John 3:16 if you have a Bible. God speaks through circumstance. Things change through both the good and bad. Doors open and close. God whispers in a still small voice to those who are silent and listen.
Platypus:------------------
The answer is the the Bhagavad Gita or Torah too, so the scriptural argument is not convincing. BTW many years back I really tried to find out whether this god-business was real - I even went to a bible-study group for a couple of years to find out. I just didn't had gods in my brain, so it didn't work for me at all. Many people have the same experience as I did and it's as valid as the Christian experience is.


What answer? I don’t know your experience so I won’t judge you as you have others. Maybe you had brain fog, or were insincere. I can’t speak for you. People separate themselves from God for many reasons. You even went to a bible study! No God in your heart. OK. And that is evidence of....

The "answer" from scripture. It's equally likely you have brain fog or are insincere, or under the influence of quirks in your brain. People with religious psychological dispositions always falsely assume that everyone is like them - the fact that "conversion into faiths" works for some people it does not mean it works for everyone. How would you react if a told you that you should go and seek for Krishna with open heart and using the traditional methods? Not too happy or willing to try it out I'm sure.

The point is that there a lot of people who don’t want to know God, and God chooses not to violate their freedom by forcing himself on them. God wants a relationship – he wants you to respond to him. (See Matthew 7:7-8)

It seems to me that you are tending your religious feelings even though God has never directly and unmistakably contacted you. Is religion an important part of your identity?

ps. could you quote in the standard manner? while your quotations are easy to read they are difficult to re-quote.

#281 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 16 November 2011 - 10:21 PM

Shadowhawk:
Do you accept eye witness accounts as evidence? You seen to think something as complex as the creator of the universe would have everyone believe exactly the same. Imposing this kind of moronic view on people of faith is silly.
-----------------------------
pltypus
Eyewitness evidence is contradictory - the Judeo-Christian God "talks" to people in different faiths (that's what adherents claim) but their doctrines are not converging. For example, don't you think it would be important for Jehova to mention to jews that the Messiah already arrived two millennia ago? Apparently not. This is indirect evidence that Jehova does not exist.


Who told you that eyewitness evidence is contradictory to Judao-Christian God? What nonsense. No two people are the same, and eyewitness accounts are sometimes wrong but eyewitness testimony is a good form of evidence. I suppose that according to your reasoning all history, (eye witness), is rejected by Christians. This is a very distorted view.

We have already shown God is possible and came out well debating this against some of the leading atheists in the world. I recommend spending some time listening to all the debates. http://www.longecity...post__p__480983

It follows that if God is possible, the next question is, which view of God is right? Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe God is one. There are other Faiths that also believe God is one. This is the dominant view of billions and I think it is right. I also think Judaism is right and accept most of what they teach. Muslims are another issue. Buddhists are broken up into various sects but for the most part God is not an issue. I have little problem with Buddhism. Hinduism is very complicated and large parts of it are monotheistic. http://en.wikipedia..../Bede_Griffiths

At heart, the center most religions converge on God and there is what CS Lewis called the Tao.
http://www.columbia..../abolition4.htm which reefers to the common teaching of all religions.. So, most religions agree there is one God and many of their teachings are the same.

I am a Christian mainly because of the miracles, especially the resurrection. God has made Himself known to humanity. On top of that I experienced Him through Conversion.

pltypus
My evidence is the millions of people that turn into other religions because of what they feel. What makes you think your perceptions, feelings and reasoning are reliable enough in spiritual matters to justify your beliefs in gods? Christians


My evidence is the same such as.
1. Most of the worlds religious believe in One God.
2 Very very few are atheists such as you.
3. Much of there teachings on morals are the same Tao.
4. Miracles such as the Resurrection.
5. Reliable eyewitness accounts - history.
6. Subjective experience of conversion.

pltypus
And how do you know those feeling are flowing from an outside source that you call god? I also have spiritual feelings but I see no reason to believe that the source of them is external to me. Gods are an unnecessary projection.


Have you ever tried to explain to a blind man what a color is? How do you know you are seeing red, green, yellow, blue, etc. I expect you will have to open your eyes. You claim your eyes are open and you still don’t see? OK, but I tell you there are colors and most people in the world see them. That there are many different shades and colors does not belie the one light that shines through them. (Christ is the light of the world) Is there one true light? Yes and as for a true color it depends what one you are asking for and what you want it to do with it. Merry Christmas.

pltypus:
The "answer" from scripture. It's equally likely you have brain fog or are insincere, or under the influence of quirks in your brain. People with religious psychological dispositions always falsely assume that everyone is like them - the fact that "conversion into faiths" works for some people it does not mean it works for everyone. How would you react if a told you that you should go and seek for Krishna with open heart and using the traditional methods? Not too happy or willing to try it out I'm sure.


So what does your calling names prove? Is that your best evidence? Haha! Krishna is something I have examined and find a respect for. There is a lot of common ground with Hinduism. I respect and seek truth with an open heart. That includes Hinduism. I quoted Bede Griffith above. There is deep truth in Hinduism but I find Christianity more convincing. Are you open to God as are the Hindus?

It seems to me that you are tending your religious feelings even though God has never directly and unmistakably contacted you. Is religion an important part of your identity?


Define what you are talking about. What don’t you understand about the many ways I have described God speaking to me. I am a Christian and believe in God. There is a color red whether you can see it or not.

Edited by shadowhawk, 16 November 2011 - 10:29 PM.


#282 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:10 PM

Do you accept eye witness accounts as evidence? You seen to think something as complex as the creator of the universe would have everyone believe exactly the same. Imposing this kind of moronic view on people of faith is silly.
-----------------------------

Eyewitness evidence is contradictory - the Judeo-Christian God "talks" to people in different faiths (that's what adherents claim) but their doctrines are not converging. For example, don't you think it would be important for Jehova to mention to jews that the Messiah already arrived two millennia ago? Apparently not. This is indirect evidence that Jehova does not exist.


Who told you that eyewitness evidence is contradictory to Judao-Christian God? What nonsense.

Hel-lo! Have you not heard that jews don't think that Jesus was the messiah? Why doesn't Jehova reveal this to them during prayer?? Jews claim that god answers their prayers but Jesus is not important enough to be mentioned? Don't you think that's weird?

We have already shown God is possible and came out well debating this against some of the leading atheists in the world. I recommend spending some time listening to all the debates.

In your dreams. The philosophical argument presented in those talks are rather naive and rejected by the majority of philosophers (who are quite/very non-religious on average). I woolod hazard a guess that the majority of physicists rejects that argumentation as well.

My evidence is the same such as.
1. Most of the worlds religious believe in One God.

What does that prove? BTW are you aware of the theory about memes and memetics? Monotheism might survive better in the memetic battle between religions but it does not make it any more true.

2 Very very few are atheists such as you.

Nope, in many places in Europe and elsewhere non-religiousness (agnosticism + atheism) is the norm and faith is an anomaly. It always surprises me when I meet educated seemingly smart people who bought into that humbug. Of course, if one is subjected to religion at an early age it might be impossible to escape later, especially if religious behavior is seen as "normal" in the community.

And how do you know those feeling are flowing from an outside source that you call god? I also have spiritual feelings but I see no reason to believe that the source of them is external to me. Gods are an unnecessary projection.


Have you ever tried to explain to a blind man what a color is? How do you know you are seeing red, green, yellow, blue, etc. I expect you will have to open your eyes. You claim your eyes are open and you still don’t see? OK, but I tell you there are colors and most people in the world see them. That there are many different shades and colors does not belie the one light that shines through them. (Christ is the light of the world) Is there one true light? Yes and as for a true color it depends what one you are asking for and what you want it to do with it. Merry Christmas.

Dude, you are not making too much sense. BTW have you ever taken a psychedelic substance? They trigger spiritual experiences quite often, why do you think that is the case? And how about temporal Lobe Epilepsy and it's connection to runaway religiosity?

It seems to me that you are tending your religious feelings even though God has never directly and unmistakably contacted you. Is religion an important part of your identity?


Define what you are talking about. What don’t you understand about the many ways I have described God speaking to me. I am a Christian and believe in God. There is a color red whether you can see it or not.

If you have no supernatural experiences that you've personally experienced I fail to see how you can be sure that your god is out there - the feeling of certainty does not prove zilch.

#283 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 17 November 2011 - 02:12 AM

Shadowhawk:
Do you accept eye witness accounts as evidence? You seen to think something as complex as the creator of the universe would have everyone believe exactly the same. Imposing this kind of moronic view on people of faith is silly.
-----------------------------
platypus.
Hel-lo! Have you not heard that jews don't think that Jesus was the messiah? Why doesn't Jehova reveal this to them during prayer?? Jews claim that god answers their prayers but Jesus is not important enough to be mentioned? Don't you think that's weird?


Hello: My wife is Jewish, we observe all the main Jewish holidays, Jesus was Jewish as was almost every person in the New and Old Testament. If you study History the early Church was largely Jewish and there is still a large community of messianic Jews. Christianity is at its roots Jewish. I could tell you how us non jews got in there but that is eyewitness information which according to you, Christians don’t accept.
http://en.wikipedia....ssianic_Judaism
http://www.shema.com...nic_judaism.php
http://www.religious...rg/mess_jud.htm
Some Jews have always thought Jesus is the Messiah. What I think is weird is your take on it

Shadowhawk:
We have already shown God is possible and came out well debating this against some of the leading atheists in the world. I recommend spending some time listening to all the debates.
-----------------------------
platypus:
In your dreams. The philosophical argument presented in those talks are rather naive and rejected by the majority of philosophers (who are quite/very non-religious on average). I woolod hazard a guess that the majority of physicists rejects that argumentation as well.


You simply do not know what you are talking about. I am not going to waste my time answering such nonsense. The atheists in those debates were top of the line and they were not all philosophers. Any one who doubts me can listen for themselves. http://www.longecity...post__p__480983
Many philosophers are Theists.

Shadowhawk:
My evidence is the same such as.
1. Most of the worlds religious believe in One God.
-----------------------------
platypus
What does that prove? BTW are you aware of the theory about memes and memetics? Monotheism might survive better in the memetic battle between religions but it does not make it any more true.

And what does that have to do with anything?


Shadowhawk:
2 Very very few are atheists such as you.
-----------------------------
platypus:
Nope, in many places in Europe and elsewhere non-religiousness (agnosticism + atheism) is the norm and faith is an anomaly. It always surprises me when I meet educated seemingly smart people who bought into that humbug. Of course, if one is subjected to religion at an early age it might be impossible to escape later, especially if religious behavior is seen as "normal" in the community.

There are about 2.3% atheists in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
About 70-90% belong to the world’s four largest religions. Christianity is by far the largest. http://en.wikipedia....ous_populations
They are unevenly spread.
http://en.wikipedia....sm#Demographics

My point #2 remains.

platypus:
Dude, you are not making too much sense. BTW have you ever taken a psychedelic substance? They trigger spiritual experiences quite often, why do you think that is the case? And how about temporal Lobe Epilepsy and it's connection to runaway religiosity?


I guess you must know about that. Interesting!

platypus:
If you have no supernatural experiences that you've personally experienced I fail to see how you can be sure that your god is out there - the feeling of certainty does not prove zilch.


All I am offering is proof that God is theatrically possible. How about a personal experience of someone dying, me praying and them coming back alive? Why, why, why? Face it you are committed to your atheism no matter what the evidence.

#284 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 17 November 2011 - 06:20 AM

Hel-lo! Have you not heard that jews don't think that Jesus was the messiah? Why doesn't Jehova reveal this to them during prayer?? Jews claim that god answers their prayers but Jesus is not important enough to be mentioned? Don't you think that's weird?


Hello: My wife is Jewish, we observe all the main Jewish holidays, Jesus was Jewish as was almost every person in the New and Old Testament. If you study History the early Church was largely Jewish and there is still a large community of messianic Jews. Christianity is at its roots Jewish. I could tell you how us non jews got in there but that is eyewitness information which according to you, Christians don’t accept.
http://en.wikipedia....ssianic_Judaism
http://www.shema.com...nic_judaism.php
http://www.religious...rg/mess_jud.htm
Some Jews have always thought Jesus is the Messiah. What I think is weird is your take on it.

Well, all evidence seems to say that God conveys zero bits of information to people if he doesn't even care to mention that Jesus was the messiah to non-messianic jews. Heck, maybe it's the Christians who are wrong and Jehova just doesn't see the point in mentioning this small detail to Christians. People go to war over religious doctrine but Jehova does not set the record straight, as if he didn't even exist in the 1st place.

The philosophical argument presented in those talks are rather naive and rejected by the majority of philosophers (who are quite/very non-religious on average). I woolod hazard a guess that the majority of physicists rejects that argumentation as well.


You simply do not know what you are talking about. I am not going to waste my time answering such nonsense. The atheists in those debates were top of the line and they were not all philosophers.

Much of that stuff is just babble, I don't have much respect for that type of philosophy and sophism at all. Go ask engineers, scientists and medical doctors whether they believe or not, the argumentation from them is likely to be a lot better.

Many philosophers are Theists.

Not really, religiosity is inversely correlated with both IQ and education. According to this source 70% of philosophers are non-theist:

https://chronicle.co...ally-think/9255

Shadowhawk:
2 Very very few are atheists such as you.
-----------------------------
platypus:
Nope, in many places in Europe and elsewhere non-religiousness (agnosticism + atheism) is the norm and faith is an anomaly. It always surprises me when I meet educated seemingly smart people who bought into that humbug. Of course, if one is subjected to religion at an early age it might be impossible to escape later, especially if religious behavior is seen as "normal" in the community.

There are about 2.3% atheists in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is quite a hard-core position in an oppressively religious society so it's better to count people who count themselves as non-religious. The numbers are 10% - 15% today globally, despite the indoctrination. According to studies only 23% of swedes or 16% of estonians believe in a god, which fully proves my point about Europe:

https://en.wikipedia..._atheism#Europe

So, maybe being religious is considered quite normal where you're from but in more educated and liberated societies the real numbers are closer to the natural level of religiosity (free of oppressive indoctrination).

If you have no supernatural experiences that you've personally experienced I fail to see how you can be sure that your god is out there - the feeling of certainty does not prove zilch.


All I am offering is proof that God is theatrically possible. How about a personal experience of someone dying, me praying and them coming back alive? Why, why, why? Face it you are committed to your atheism no matter what the evidence.

I cannot comment on your prayer experiences but when studied prayer seems to stop working. And I've been actively searching for signs for a spirit-world but haven't found any evidence for it. Heck. I went to Peru to try psychedelic shamanism to see whether there's a dimension inhabited by spirits out there. Didn't see any, even though some other people in my group did. Maybe I'm just not built that way in my brain?

#285 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:41 PM

platpus
Well, all evidence seems to say that God conveys zero bits of information to people if he doesn't even care to mention that Jesus was the messiah to non-messianic jews. Heck, maybe it's the Christians who are wrong and Jehova just doesn't see the point in mentioning this small detail to Christians. People go to war over religious doctrine but Jehova does not set the record straight, as if he didn't even exist in the 1st place.


“All the evidence.” What ALL, evidence?
I think non messianic Jews have information that Jesus is not the messiah. They also have information that he is. How can you say this?
There have been religious wars but the real killers are Atheist societies. If going to war disproves something then atheism is surely wrong.

platpus
The philosophical argument presented in those talks are rather naive and rejected by the majority of philosophers (who are quite/very non-religious on average). I woolod hazard a guess that the majority of physicists rejects that argumentation as well.


Which arguments do you find “naive.” Which have been rejected?
Name me a few current philosophers who have debated the issues who reject them. I have always enjoyed such debates.
Science is a process not a position. Physicists are scientists and have almost always, to their credit, been wrong. Name me a physicist who has dealt with the issues of the debates and rejected them.

platpus
Much of that stuff is just babble, I don't have much respect for that type of philosophy and sophism at all. Go ask engineers, scientists and medical doctors whether they believe or not, the argumentation from them is likely to be a lot better.


My immediate family has three doctors, one from Cornell and an robotics engineer. One is a psychologist and has written 13 books. My son is a graduate student at UCSC in computer science. My wife graduated from Swathmore. My brother in law graduated from Harvard as an attorney. I have two master degrees and 12 years of full time college and graduate work.. All my children have been tested and are mentally gifted. They are all theists.

Do I care about the education? No, but you are putting out a lot of atheist bull here and in what follows.

platpus
Not really, religiosity is inversely correlated with both IQ and education. According to this source 70% of philosophers are non-theist:


What a smear. I have herd this kind of lame thing coming from atheists all the time. Not worth any comment.

platpus
Nope, in many places in Europe and elsewhere non-religiousness (agnosticism + atheism) is the norm and faith is an anomaly. It always surprises me when I meet educated seemingly smart people who bought into that humbug. Of course, if one is subjected to religion at an early age it might be impossible to escape later, especially if religious behavior is seen as "normal" in the community.
There are about 2.3% atheists in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Atheism is quite a hard-core position in an oppressively religious society so it's better to count people who count themselves as non-religious. The numbers are 10% - 15% today globally, despite the indoctrination. According to studies only 23% of swedes or 16% of estonians believe in a god, which fully proves my point about Europe:


So there are more than the average 2.3% atheists in the world in those bastions of enlightenment Sweden and Estonia. Good example. I said before they were spread unevenly..I think the Swedes and Estonians who believe in God are right.

platpus
So, maybe being religious is considered quite normal where you're from but in more educated and liberated societies the real numbers are closer to the natural level of religiosity (free of oppressive indoctrination).


I am an American. It is not unusual for people from every walk of life and educational background to believe in God, The most oppressive and indoctrining societies I know of are Atheist. They are bigoted and intolerant of people who do not share their views and think it is their right and duty to stomp out any competing viewpoint.

platpus
I cannot comment on your prayer experiences but when studied prayer seems to stop working. And I've been actively searching for signs for a spirit-world but haven't found any evidence for it. Heck. I went to Peru to try psychedelic shamanism to see whether there's a dimension inhabited by spirits out there. Didn't see any, even though some other people in my group did. Maybe I'm just not built that way in my brain?


1. What studies say prayer stopped working?
2. When you tried psychedelic shamanism could you have taken to much / to little, of the drugs?
3. Do you believe those in your group who claim to have experienced spirits/demons?
4. You have accused religious people of having “brain fog.” Could “brain fog” also keep one from having religious experience?
5. Do drugs produce “Brain Fog.”

#286 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:08 PM

Is Christianity Rational? Debate:






Great book on New Atheism
http://www.amazon.co...pologetics31-20

Edited by shadowhawk, 18 November 2011 - 01:27 AM.


#287 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:08 AM

quoting fail, will try again

Edited by platypus, 18 November 2011 - 11:09 AM.


#288 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 18 November 2011 - 01:02 PM

[quote][quote] platpus
Well, all evidence seems to say that God conveys zero bits of information to people if he doesn't even care to mention that Jesus was the messiah to non-messianic jews. Heck, maybe it's the Christians who are wrong and Jehova just doesn't see the point in mentioning this small detail to Christians. People go to war over religious doctrine but Jehova does not set the record straight, as if he didn't even exist in the 1st place.[/quote]

“All the evidence.” What ALL, evidence?[/quote]
Evidence for the fact that people who claim that God talks to them are deluded. Jehova doesn't talk to people anymore.

[quote]I think non messianic Jews have information that Jesus is not the messiah. They also have information that he is. How can you say this?[/quote]
You don't seem to understand my point. People claim that God talks to them, but in reality the communication they think they receive from god is always contradictory. This is a strong data point for the non-existence of a personal god who contacts people. It seems like Judeo-Christians are calling for Jehova but there's nobody at the other end.

[quote][quote] platpus
The philosophical argument presented in those talks are rather naive and rejected by the majority of philosophers (who are quite/very non-religious on average). I would hazard a guess that the majority of physicists rejects that argumentation as well.[/quote]

Which arguments do you find “naive.” Which have been rejected?[/quote]
All of them. Why do you think 70% of professional philosophers reject them (as evidenced by their non-theism)?

[quote]Name me a few current philosophers who have debated the issues who reject them. I have always enjoyed such debates.
Science is a process not a position. Physicists are scientists and have almost always, to their credit, been wrong. Name me a physicist who has dealt with the issues of the debates and rejected them.[/quote]
The arguments for God are largely metaphysical and not in the realm of physics. Since none of the philosophical/metaphysical arguments are convincing at all (see above), the whole argumentation is baseless. There is no need for supernatural beings in any of the theories in physics.

[quote][quote] platpus
Much of that stuff is just babble, I don't have much respect for that type of philosophy and sophism at all. Go ask engineers, scientists and medical doctors whether they believe or not, the argumentation from them is likely to be a lot better.[/quote]

My immediate family has three doctors, one from Cornell and an robotics engineer. One is a psychologist and has written 13 books. My son is a graduate student at UCSC in computer science. My wife graduated from Swathmore. My brother in law graduated from Harvard as an attorney. I have two master degrees and 12 years of full time college and graduate work.. All my children have been tested and are mentally gifted. They are all theists.[/quote]
Yes, religiosity is still seen as "normal" in your part of the world.

[quote][quote] platpus
Not really, religiosity is inversely correlated with both IQ and education. According to this source 70% of philosophers are non-theist:[/quote]

What a smear. I have herd this kind of lame thing coming from atheists all the time. Not worth any comment.[/quote]
Sorry but this issue has been studied many times over and the results are what they are:

https://en.wikipedia...nd_intelligence

[quote][quote] platpus
Nope, in many places in Europe and elsewhere non-religiousness (agnosticism + atheism) is the norm and faith is an anomaly. It always surprises me when I meet educated seemingly smart people who bought into that humbug. Of course, if one is subjected to religion at an early age it might be impossible to escape later, especially if religious behavior is seen as "normal" in the community. Atheism is quite a hard-core position in an oppressively religious society so it's better to count people who count themselves as non-religious. The numbers are 10% - 15% today globally, despite the indoctrination. According to studies only 23% of swedes or 16% of estonians believe in a god, which fully proves my point about Europe:[/quote]

So there are more than the average 2.3% atheists in the world in those bastions of enlightenment Sweden and Estonia. Good example. I said before they were spread unevenly..I think the Swedes and Estonians who believe in God are right.[/quote]
If you look at the table more closely you see that large parts of Europe where people are quite free from religious indoctrination, it's not just Sweden or Estonia. The situation is different in the old Catholic countries - there the majority of people has still been taught to believe.

[quote][quote] platpus
So, maybe being religious is considered quite normal where you're from but in more educated and liberated societies the real numbers are closer to the natural level of religiosity (free of oppressive indoctrination).[/quote]

I am an American. It is not unusual for people from every walk of life and educational background to believe in God,[/quote]
That is evidently true.

[quote]1. What studies say prayer stopped working?
2. When you tried psychedelic shamanism could you have taken to much / to little, of the drugs?
3. Do you believe those in your group who claim to have experienced spirits/demons?
4. You have accused religious people of having “brain fog.” Could “brain fog” also keep one from having religious experience?
5. Do drugs produce “Brain Fog.”[/quote]

1. Can you quote any properly conducted study that showed a benefit of prayer for example to the health of a person prayed for? When the study is properly conducted (blinded enough), there's no effect - it's like homeopathy or paranormal phenomena in general.
2. Maybe, more investigation are needed.
3. My friend experienced "dancing with friendly animal spirits that came to him from the forest" and sure I believe he experienced this. Whether any animal spirits are out there is another question.
4. I wasn't really serious when I said that .
5. They can both create and disperse illusions.

#289 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 18 November 2011 - 07:18 PM



#290 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:14 PM

Shadowhawk:
“All the evidence.” What ALL, evidence?
platipus:
Evidence for the fact that people who claim that God talks to them are deluded. Jehova doesn't talk to people anymore.


You said “all” the evidence. God does not talk to people anymore. Where is the evidence? He talks to me and I have explained how. This has desegrated into a childish game of “why.”

Shadowhawk:
I think non messianic Jews have information that Jesus is not the messiah. They also have information that he is. How can you say this?
platipus;
You don't seem to understand my point. People claim that God talks to them, but in reality the communication they think they receive from god is always contradictory. This is a strong data point for the non-existence of a personal god who contacts people. It seems like Judeo-Christians are calling for Jehova but there's nobody at the other end.


Always” is contradictory. What evidence do you have of this? You “always” speak in broad overgeneralized terms. I have just shown the vast majority of the world agrees there is a God. The vast majority believes God communicates to them. Christians are the largest religion in the world by far and they are in general agreement. Christians believe the Jews are right on most things. Christians and Jews are in agreement that God is one. They hold the bible in high esteem. Hindus and Buddhists also find huge areas of agreement such as the Tao and some are monotheistic. I don’t want to play an endless why game here with assumptions that this proves something. There is one light but many colors. That there are many colors does not disprove the light.

But what of differences? Christianity teaches humans started off knowing God but went there own ways. Look at the differences among families here in America, even though we started off with a small band of like-minded settlers. Even the Indians had similar religious beliefs. That some people lost there way says nothing against the truths they started with My last example is the English language. With a common beginning, it has spread everywhere with many dialects. That does not make it wrong..

Science itself is not unified. We seek the truth, the best explanation of a very complex world. The cosmos is before us but we have a difficult time understanding the obvious but complex. Do you think God would be less complex than the creation? Hardly. Faith will always seek understanding. Your concept of God is to small.

Shadowhawk:
Which arguments do you find “naive.” Which have been rejected?
platpus
All of them. Why do you think 70% of professional philosophers reject them (as evidenced by their non-theism.


Again, short on any evidence. “All,” here we go again.
Physics:




Philosophy:
http://blog.epsociet...Blog (EPS Blog)

http://www.societyof...ilosophers.com/

http://en.wikipedia....an_philosophers

http://christianfigh...-continued.html

Shadowhawk:
Name me a few current philosophers who have debated the issues who reject them. I have always enjoyed such debates.
Science is a process not a position. Physicists are scientists and have almost always, to their credit, been wrong. Name me a physicist who has dealt with the issues of the debates and rejected them.
platpus
The arguments for God are largely metaphysical and not in the realm of physics. Since none of the philosophical/metaphysical arguments are convincing at all (see above), the whole argumentation is baseless. There is no need for supernatural beings in any of the theories in physics.


Again no evidence, names etc.. I agree that physics can’t investigate something outside the physical world. Even positions in physics are not agreed on by all. If that disqualifies some field, then there is no science. There is no appeal to God in lots of things such as math, but that is not evidence against God. The philosophical questions remain. All you are doing is making one baseless charge after another.

Shadowhawk:
1. What studies say prayer stopped working?
2. When you tried psychedelic shamanism could you have taken to much / to little, of the drugs?
3. Do you believe those in your group who claim to have experienced spirits/demons?
4. You have accused religious people of having “brain fog.” Could “brain fog” also keep one from having religious experience?
5. Do drugs produce “Brain Fog.”

platypus:
1. Can you quote any properly conducted study that showed a benefit of prayer for example to the health of a person prayed for? When the study is properly conducted (blinded enough), there's no effect - it's like homeopathy or paranormal phenomena in general.
2. Maybe, more investigation are needed.
3. My friend experienced "dancing with friendly animal spirits that came to him from the forest" and sure I believe he experienced this. Whether any animal spirits are out there is another question.
4. I wasn't really serious when I said that .
5. They can both create and disperse illusions.


I notice you again didn’t answer anything yourself. All you did with question #1 is ask another question. To much brain fog.
Prayer
We cannot hope that our prayers will change God’s mind, prevailing upon Him to act against His will, We can be sure that prayer does change things—including our own hearts. Plus, it is one of the chief means by which God carries out His will in the world. Prayer is not a magic wand where you get anything you dream up. I like this:


#291 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:43 AM

You don't seem to understand my point. People claim that God talks to them, but in reality the communication they think they receive from god is always contradictory. This is a strong data point for the non-existence of a personal god who contacts people. It seems like Judeo-Christians are calling for Jehova but there's nobody at the other end.


Always” is contradictory. What evidence do you have of this?

The evidence that Jehova does not directly speak to Jews, Christians, Mormons, Jehova's witnesses or Muslims. If he did, those religions would converge. According to most (all?) of those doctrines state that people with wrong type of faith will go to hell or otherwise suffer. Maybe that's not true in the end, as Jehova does not clear these issues?

Shadowhawk:
Which arguments do you find “naive.” Which have been rejected?

All of them. Why do you think 70% of professional philosophers reject them (as evidenced by their non-theism.


Again, short on any evidence. “All,” here we go again.

Yes, all of them. I repeat again: Why do you think 70% of professional philosophers reject them (as evidenced by their non-theism)?

Again no evidence, names etc.. I agree that physics can’t investigate something outside the physical world. Even positions in physics are not agreed on by all. If that disqualifies some field, then there is no science. There is no appeal to God in lots of things such as math, but that is not evidence against God. The philosophical questions remain. All you are doing is making one baseless charge after another.

The philosophical questions are non-issues. There's no "proof"to be found for the existence of gods neither in philosophy or physics and it would be naive to build one's faith on such tenuous basis.

We cannot hope that our prayers will change God’s mind, prevailing upon Him to act against His will, We can be sure that prayer does change things—including our own hearts. Plus, it is one of the chief means by which God carries out His will in the world. Prayer is not a magic wand where you get anything you dream up.

So basically you choose to believe that prayer works, even though there's no real evidence that it does? That's faith I guess.

Edited by platypus, 21 November 2011 - 11:44 AM.


#292 mikeinnaples

  • Guest
  • 1,907 posts
  • 296
  • Location:Florida

Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:31 PM

The Sun came up this morning here in California where I live. I know it did through my senses of sight. I am not a skeptic of that, even if some are. I ‘believe’ the sun will come up tomorrow, though I have no direct evidence of it. It is faith based on past history as well as experience. Faith has its reasons.


I observed that the sun came up this morning. I will see the sun come up before you will in California. You don't have to have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow because all you have to do is jump on the computer and pull up a web cam of the sunrise at any point in time of the day, because it will always be rising somewhere. That is not faith at all. In order for the sun not to rise, either the earth has to get thrown out of orbit or the sun will have to shut off like a light. Either way, it will be directly observable.


I see your faith is seeking its reasons. :)


Is that seriously your response to me? Wow you are really grasping at straws.

#293 mikeinnaples

  • Guest
  • 1,907 posts
  • 296
  • Location:Florida

Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:32 PM

This conversation reminds me of this debate.


Can't watch videos in the office.

Care to actually respond to my post rather than linking a video you know I cant watch anyways?

Edited by mikeinnaples, 21 November 2011 - 01:32 PM.


#294 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 21 November 2011 - 09:09 PM

The Sun came up this morning here in California where I live. I know it did through my senses of sight. I am not a skeptic of that, even if some are. I ‘believe’ the sun will come up tomorrow, though I have no direct evidence of it. It is faith based on past history as well as experience. Faith has its reasons.


I observed that the sun came up this morning. I will see the sun come up before you will in California. You don't have to have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow because all you have to do is jump on the computer and pull up a web cam of the sunrise at any point in time of the day, because it will always be rising somewhere. That is not faith at all. In order for the sun not to rise, either the earth has to get thrown out of orbit or the sun will have to shut off like a light. Either way, it will be directly observable.


I see your faith is seeking its reasons. :)



Is that seriously your response to me? Wow you are really grasping at straws.


You know the sun came up based upon your actual experience. That is if you trust and believe your experiences, though subjective, nevertheless recorded events accurately. Not everyone experiences are accurate. You believe that the same experience will take place again tomorrow though you do not have actual experience or evidence of it. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” the Bible says. I hope this makes it clear. As for watching a short video at work, perhaps you should not be engaged in conversations such as this on work time. I will leave that up to you.

Edited by shadowhawk, 21 November 2011 - 09:14 PM.


#295 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:45 AM

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” the Bible says.

Excuse me but why does it matter what has been written into some book?? Think for yourself. Mind you, I don't think that you came up with the idea of Christian God in isolation, but a human being told you about it to start with. If if this person wore robes it doesn't follow that you should believe whatever he/she said...

#296 mikeinnaples

  • Guest
  • 1,907 posts
  • 296
  • Location:Florida

Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:24 PM

You know the sun came up based upon your actual experience. That is if you trust and believe your experiences, though subjective, nevertheless recorded events accurately. Not everyone experiences are accurate. You believe that the same experience will take place again tomorrow though you do not have actual experience or evidence of it. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” the Bible says. I hope this makes it clear. As for watching a short video at work, perhaps you should not be engaged in conversations such as this on work time. I will leave that up to you.


I don't have to trust the sun to come up. I don't have to believe that the same experience will occur tomorrow. I have direct evidence of it. I can experience the sun rising and setting anywhere on the globe at the touch of my fingertips. It is tangible and I can directly observe it. I am confused why you are trying to attribute something that is directly observable on demand to faith.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 22 November 2011 - 01:32 PM.


#297 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 22 November 2011 - 04:03 PM

I don't have to trust the sun to come up. I don't have to believe that the same experience will occur tomorrow. I have direct evidence of it. I can experience the sun rising and setting anywhere on the globe at the touch of my fingertips. It is tangible and I can directly observe it. I am confused why you are trying to attribute something that is directly observable on demand to faith.

Exactly. Also, those of us who give credit to realism also know why it rises every day (Sun is a star and Earth rotates and will keep rotating unless etc. etc. yadda yadda...)

#298 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:35 PM

You know the sun came up based upon your actual experience. That is if you trust and believe your experiences, though subjective, nevertheless recorded events accurately. Not everyone experiences are accurate. You believe that the same experience will take place again tomorrow though you do not have actual experience or evidence of it. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” the Bible says. I hope this makes it clear. As for watching a short video at work, perhaps you should not be engaged in conversations such as this on work time. I will leave that up to you.


I don't have to trust the sun to come up. I don't have to believe that the same experience will occur tomorrow. I have direct evidence of it. I can experience the sun rising and setting anywhere on the globe at the touch of my fingertips. It is tangible and I can directly observe it. I am confused why you are trying to attribute something that is directly observable on demand to faith.


You have direct evidence, if you trust your subjective experience, that the sun came up this morning. That is what you KNOW. Based on this you BELIEVE the sun will come up tomorrow morning though you can’t be absolutely certain about it because someday it won’t. If you can’t understand this....OK. If you can ...OK
:)

#299 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:49 PM

You have direct evidence, if you trust your subjective experience, that the sun came up this morning. That is what you KNOW. Based on this you BELIEVE the sun will come up tomorrow morning though you can’t be absolutely certain about it because someday it won’t. If you can’t understand this....OK. If you can ...OK
:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism

Absolute certainty about anything does not exist and is not even needed. We know that the Sun will come up tomorrow unless something truly extraordinary happens. Would you bet against the Sun rising tomorrow?

Edited by platypus, 22 November 2011 - 06:56 PM.


#300 mikeinnaples

  • Guest
  • 1,907 posts
  • 296
  • Location:Florida

Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:49 PM

*sigh* Based on my knowledge I don't believe the sun will come up tomorrow, I -know- it will. I can readily observe the sun from any time zone and if it disappears, I too will be able to observe that directly. I agree that the sun will eventually not 'come up' in the classic sense, but there will be thousands of years of warnings before that happens and it will be a slow, directly observable process barring going supernova ......

Where is your god oberservable? Where can I toon in a webcam or telescope to verify its presence 24 hours a day at will? Nowhere, because your god doesnt exist ...and even if your god did exist, he doesnt care about you or his creations because he has abandonded them.




24 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 24 guests, 0 anonymous users