774 replies to this topic

[Link]

i never understand why athiests hate religious people so much. religious types don't hate athiests so what gives?

First of all you are wrong. Atheists are one of the most heavily discriminated groups in society.

http://en.wikipedia....gainst_atheists

United States


A 2006 study found that 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that did "not at all agree with my vision of American society", and that 48% would not want their child to marry an atheist. In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.^[53] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behaviour, extreme materialism, and elitism.^[54]

Atheists note that few politicians have been willing to identify as non-theists, since until recently such revelations would have been "political suicide",^[48][49] and welcomed Democratic California Representative Pete Stark's 2007 decision to come out as the first openly nontheistic member of Congress.^[31] In 2009, City Councilman Cecil Bothwell of Asheville, North Carolina was called "unworthy of his seat" because of his open atheism.^[50] Indeed, several polls have shown that about 50 percent of Americans would not vote for a well-qualified atheist for president.^[51][52]

In several Child custody court rulings, the parents of atheists have been discriminated against, either directly or indirectly. As Child custody laws in the United States, are often based on the "best interest of the child" principle, they leave family court judges ample room to consider a parent’s ideology when settling a custody case. Atheism, lack of religious observation and regular church attendance, and the inability to prove one's willingness and capacity to attend to religion with his children, have been used to deny custody to non-religious parents.

Islamic countries


In Iran, atheists do not have any recognized legal status, and must declare that they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian, in order to claim some legal rights, including applying for entrance to university,^[72] or becoming a lawyer.^[73] Similarly, Jordan requires atheists to associate themselves with a recognized religion for official identification purposes,^[74] and atheists in Indonesia experience official discrimination in the context of registration of births and marriages, and the issuance of identity cards.^[75] In Egypt, intellectuals suspected of holding atheistic beliefs have been prosecuted by judicial and religious authorities. Novelist Alaa Hamad was convicted of publishing a book that contained atheistic ideas and apostasy that were considered to threaten national unity and social peace.^[76][77] Compulsory religious instruction in Turkish schools is also considered discriminatory towards atheists.^[78]

http://www.gallup.co...candidates.aspx

A recent USA Today/Gallup poll updated a question first asked in 1937 about the public's willingness to vote for presidential candidates from a variety of different genders, religions, and other backgrounds. While Americans overwhelmingly say they would vote for a black, woman, Catholic, or Hispanic president, they are less likely to say they would support a Mormon candidate, one who is 72 years old, or one who has been married three times.

The Feb. 9-11, 2007, poll asked Americans whether they would vote for "a generally well-qualified" presidential candidate nominated by their party with each of the following characteristics: Jewish, Catholic, Mormon, an atheist, a woman, black, Hispanic, homosexual, 72 years of age, and someone married for the third time.

Between now and the 2008 political conventions, there will be discussion about the qualifications of presidential candidates -- their education, age, religion, race, and so on. If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be …, would you vote for that person?

I apologise for how this graph has come i couldn't get it to work right but just click the link if you want an easier to read version.

Yes, would No, would not
vote for vote for

% %

Catholic 95 4

Black 94 5

Jewish 92 7

A woman 88 11

Hispanic 87 12

Mormon 72 24

Married for
the third time 67 30

72 years of age 57 42

A homosexual 55 43

An atheist 45 53

Secondly, I don't hate religious people. People are free to believe whatever they want, no matter how crazy it might be, however there are two instances in which religion really grinds my gears:

1. Parading religion as science. Arguments like "You can't prove that God doesn't exist" "DNA is a code and all codes need a designer" "the universe is fine tuned for life" "this can't have all just come from nothing" "There can be no morallity without religious values" etc etc.

If you are going to bring these sorts of weak arguments to the table and expect them to be treated with respect simply because you are religious then too bad, prepare to be slapped down like a backhand from Shaquille O'Neal.

Religion is unscientific and needs to stay out of the science classroom, it is has already done more than enough damage to scientific advancement over the past 2000 years and religious philosophers need to stop pretending to be scientists. Science is based on logic and evidence, not superstition and wishful thinking.


2. Using religion as a justification for imposing your will on other people. There are a number of areas in science, medicine in particular, where advancement is being held back because of protests from ignorant religious fanatics who cry that humans should not be "playing with God's domain". Also there are social issues where certain groups such as women and homosexuals are treated as second class citizens because of the bigotry of religious scripture.

Edited by Link, 19 February 2012 - 06:52 AM.

[Valkyrie]

i never understand why athiests hate religious people so much. religious types don't hate athiests so what gives?

Really? Ever hear of crusades? Religious killings? Do you know that both the Bible and the Qua'ran call for murder and fair game of unbelievers?

Yeah, and how about Jahve's loving plan to incinerate and torture billions of people forever? Nice!

i mean in current time, not long time ago. i agree about crusades and stuff in history being bad.

it is sad that people fight over religion when that goes against what religion is supposed to be about

[shadowhawk]

i never understand why athiests hate religious people so much. religious types don't hate athiests so what gives?

Really? Ever hear of crusades? Religious killings? Do you know that both the Bible and the Qua'ran call for murder and fair game of unbelievers?

Yeah, and how about Jahve's loving plan to incinerate and torture billions of people forever? Nice!

i mean in current time, not long time ago. i agree about crusades and stuff in history being bad.

it is sad that people fight over religion when that goes against what religion is supposed to be about

Good point but off topic.Atheists have done their share of hating and killing but never admit anything even when it is right in front of them. Is God possible? .

[hooter]

it is sad that people fight over religion when that goes against what religion is supposed to be about

What about 9/11?

What about the entire Palestinian and Israeli conflict over the holy land?

What about the pope saying that condoms are worse than AIDS? Is this not indirectly murder?

What about the Mullahs offering thousands of dollars for the murder of author Salman Rushdie for his criticism of Islam?


Please look at muslim countries. There are still Christians being decapitated. Women being raped and murdered under Sharia law. Christian pastors face execution because they do not convert to islam. This is 2011. Early enough for you?

The mass murderer Breivik thought himself to be a holy Christian paladin of Norway and following god's will.

IS THIS RECENT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

Religion... Peaceful??? REALLY?? REALLY? REALLY?

1. God likes Abel's dead animals better than Cain's fruits and vegetables. Why? Well, no reason is given, but it probably has something to do with the amount of pain, blood, and gore involved. 4:3-5
2. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8
3. God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17
4. God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
5. God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
6. Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor." 8:20
7. To free Lot from captivity, Abram sends an army of slaves to pursue and smite his captors. 14:14-15
8. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
9. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6
10. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Pet.2:7-8. 19:7-8
11. God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24
12. God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7
13. God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
14. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
15. "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." I don't know what the "terror of God" is, but I'll bet it isn't pleasant. 35:5
16. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7
17. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
18. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24
19. Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19

Exodus

20. Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12
21. God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's firstborn son. 4:23
22. God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
23. God will make sure that Pharaoh does not listen to Moses, so that he can kill Egyptians with his armies. 7:4
24. "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." Who else could be so cruel and unjust? 7:5, 17
25. God tells Moses and Aaron to smite the river and turn it into blood. 7:17-24
26. The fifth plague: all cattle in Egypt die. 9:2-6
27. The sixth plague: boils and blains upon man and beast. 9:9-12
28. "For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth." Who else but the biblical god could be so cruel? 9:14
29. God kills all Egyptian cattle with hail. 9:19-20
30. The seventh plague is hail. "And the hail smote throughout the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast." 9:22-25
31. These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)
32. God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
33. God explains to Moses that he intends to "smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. 12:12
34. After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29
35. To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
36. After hardening Pharaoh's heart a few more times, God drowns Pharaoh's army in the sea 14:4-28
37. Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19
38. "The Lord is a man of war." Indeed, judging from his acts in the Old Testament, he is a vicious warlike monster. 15:3
39. God's right hand dashes people in pieces. 15:6
40. Joshua, with God's approval, kills the Amalekites "with the edge of the sword." 17:13
41. "The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." 17:14-16
42. Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." 19:12-13
43. God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24
44. A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15,17
45. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25
46. If an ox gores someone, then both the ox and its owner must die. 21:28-29
47. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
48. "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." Is it really necessary to kill such people? Couldn't we just send them to counseling or something? 22:19
49. "He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
50. If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24
51. "The firstborn of thy sons thou shalt give unto me." (As a burnt offering?) 22:29
52. God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
53. Moses has some animals killed and their dead bodies burned for God. Then he sprinkles their blood on the altar and on the people. This makes God happy. 24:5-8
54. Get some animals, kill them, chop up their bodies, wave body parts in the air, burn the carcasses, and sprinkle the blood all around -- in precisely the way God tells you. It may well make you sick, but it makes God feel good. 29:11-37
55. Have your killed and offered your bullock for a sin offering today? How about the two lambs you are supposed to offer each day? 29:36-39
56. Wash up or die. 30:20-21
57. Whoever puts holy oil on a stranger shall be "cut off from his people." 30:33
58. Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
59. God asks to be left alone so that his "wrath may wax hot" and he can "consume them. 32:10
60. God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28
61. But God wasn't satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35
62. If you can't redeem him, then just "break his neck." Hey, it's all for the glory of God. 34:20
63. Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3

Leviticus

64. God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows: Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9
65. Wringing off the heads of pigeons for God. 5:8-9
66. The holy law of trespass offering: Find an animal; kill it; sprinkle the blood around; offer God the fat, rump, kidneys, and caul; burn and eat it in the holy place, for "it is most holy." 7:1-6
67. The priest must sprinkle the blood of the peace offerings. 7:14
68. Be careful what you eat during these animal sacrifices. Don't eat fat or blood -- these are for God. (And he doesn't like to share!) 7:18-27
69. God gives instructions for "wave offerings" and "heave offerings." He says these offerings are to be made perpetually "by a statute for ever." Have you made your heave offering today? 7:30-36
70. Moses does it all for God. First he kills an animal; wipes the blood on Aaron's ears, thumbs, and big toes. Then he sprinkles blood round about and waves the guts before the Lord. Finally he burns the whole mess for "a sweet savour before the Lord." 8:14-32
71. More killing, sprinkling of blood, waiving animal parts, and burning carcasses "before the Lord." 9:8-21
72. Two of the sons of Aaron "offered strange fire before the Lord" and "there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord." 10:1-2
73. If priests misbehave at the tabernacle by uncovering their heads, tearing their clothes, leaving with holy oil on them, or by drinking "wine or strong drink", then God will kill them and send his wrath on "all the people." 10:6-9
74. God's treatment for leprosy: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-32
75. God explains the use of scapegoats. It goes like this: Get two goats. Kill one. Wipe, smear, and sprinkle the blood around seven times. Then take the other goat, give it the sins of all the people, and send it off into the wilderness. 16:6-28
76. If you upset God, he'll cause the land to vomit you out. 18:25
77. "Whosoever shall commit any of these abominations ... shall be cut off from among their people." I'm not sure what being "cut off" means exactly, but I bet it isn't any fun. 18:29, 19:8
78. Kill anyone who "gives his seed" to Molech. If you refuse, God will cut you and your family off. 20:2-5
79. "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first? 20:9
80. Both parties in adultery shall be executed. 20:10
81. "And the man that lieth with his father's wife ... both of them shall be put to death." Which? The man and his father? The father and his wife? Or the man and his father's wife? Oh heck, just kill all three. 20:11
82. If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 20:12
83. Homosexuals must be executed. 20:13
84. If you "lie" with your wife and your mother-in-law (now that sounds fun!), then all three of you must be burned to death. 20:14
85. If a man or woman "lie with a beast" both the person and the poor animal are to be killed. 20:15-16
86. People with "familiar spirits" (witches, fortune tellers, etc.) are to be stoned to death. 20:27
87. A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 21:9
88. God gives us more instructions on killing and burning animals. I guess the first nine chapters of Leviticus wasn't enough. He says we must do this because he really likes the smell -- it is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 23:12-14, 18
89. Don't do any work on the day of atonement or God will destroy you. 23:29-30
90. A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 24:10-23
91. Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire community. 24:16
92. God tells the Israelites to "chase" their enemies and make them "fall before you by the sword." He figures five of the Israelites will be able to "chase" a hundred of their enemies, and a hundred will be able to "put ten thousand to flight." 26:7-8
93. God describes torments that he has planned for those who displease him. The usual stuff: plagues, burning fevers that will consume the eyes, etc. but he reserves the worst for the little children. He says "ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it", "I will send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children", and "ye shall eat the flesh of your sons .. daughters." 26:16-39
94. All "devoted" things (both man and beast) "shall surely be put to death." 27:28-29

Numbers

95. God displays his hospitality with the admonition: "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death." 1:51
96. Two of Aaron's sons are killed by God for "offering strange fire before the Lord." 3:4
97. God repeats his order (see 1:51) to kill any strangers who happen to come near. 3:10
98. Once again (see 1:51 and 3:10) God tells his favorite people to kill any strangers that come near. 3:38
99. Don't touch or "go in to see when the holy things are covered." God kills people who touch or look at uncovered holy things. 4:15, 4:20
100. "And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it." (He had his hearing aid on.) He then burns the complainers alive. That'll teach them. 11:1
101. "And wile the flesh [of the quails] was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague. "The Bible isn't too clear about what these poor folks did to upset God so much; all it says is that they had "lusted." 11:33
102. More plagues and pestilence sent by God. God repeats one of his favorite promises: "your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness." 14:12, 29, 14:32-37
103. God gives more instructions for the ritualistic killing of animals. The smell of burning flesh is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 15:3, 13-14, 24
104. The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. 15:32-36
105. Because of a dispute between Korah and Moses, God makes the ground open up and it swallows Korah and his family. And then, just for the hell of it, God has a fire burn 250 men (friends of Korah?) to death. 16:20-49
106. After God killed Korah, his family, and 250 innocent bystanders, the people complained saying, "ye have killed the people of the Lord." So God, who doesn't take kindly to criticism, sends a plague on the people. And "they that died in the plague were 14,700." 16:41-50
107. God threatens to kill those who murmur. To which the people reply, "Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish .... Shall we be consumed with dying?" 17:12-13
108. According to this verse, it is wise to stay away from holy things and places -- like churches. God will kill you if you get too close. 18:3
109. God shows us how to make new friends by saying : "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death." 18:7
110. God describes once again the procedure for ritualistic animal sacrifices. such rituals must be extremely important to God, since he makes their performance a "statute" and "covenant" forever. Why, then don't Bible-believers perform these sacrifices anymore? Don't they realize how God must miss the "sweet savour" of burning flesh? Don't they believe God when he says "forever"? 18:17-19
111. Don't get near holy things or "pollute" them. If you do, God will kill you. 18:22, 32
112. The purification of the unclean. These absurd rituals, cruel sacrifices, and unjust punishments are vitally important to God. He even insists that they are to be "a perpetual statute" to all humankind. 19:1-22
113. "And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities." This verse demonstrates the power of prayer: If you ask God, he will destroy entire cities for you. 21:3
114. God sends "fiery serpents" to bite his chosen people, and many of them die. 21:6
115. God delivers the Amorites into Moses' hands. (You're in God hands with Moses.) So Moses does the usual thing, killing everyone "until their was none left alive." 21:34-35
116. God's people will kill like a lion and then "drink the blood of the slain." 23:24
117. God, who is as strong as a unicorn, will eat up the nations, break their bones, and then pierce them through with his arrows. What a guy! 24:8
118. After the people "commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab," Moses has them all killed. Then God tells Moses to hang their dead bodies up in front of him; God says that this will satisfy him. 25:1-5
119. When one of the Israelite men brings home a foreign woman, "Phinehas (Aaron's grandson) sees them and throws a spear "through the man .. and the woman through her belly." This act pleases God so much that "the plague was stayed from the children of Israel." But not before 24,000 had died. 25:6-9
120. God tells Moses how to care for his neighbors by saying: "Vex the Midianites, and smite them." 25:16-17
121. The ground swallow Korah and his companions and a fire consumes 250 men. 26:10
122. "And Nadab and Abihu died when they offered strange fire before the Lord." When you go camping avoid making any unusual fires. 26:61
123. In these chapters, God provides ridiculously detailed instructions for the ritualistic sacrifice of animals. The burning of their dead bodies smells great to God. Eleven times in these two chapters God says that they are to him a "sweet savour."
124. Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins -- Wow! [Even God gets some of the booty -- including the virgins. (31:28-29)] 31:1-54 28-29
125. God killed all the Egyptian firstborn. 33:4
126. "The revenger of blood" must murder the murderer just as soon as he sees him. 35:19, 21
127. When a murder is committed the blood pollutes the land. The only way to cleanse it is to spill more blood by killing the killer. 35:33

Edited by hooter, 20 February 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[shadowhawk]

i never understand why athiests hate religious people so much. religious types don't hate athiests so what gives?

Really? Ever hear of crusades? Religious killings? Do you know that both the Bible and the Qua'ran call for murder and fair game of unbelievers?

Yeah, and how about Jahve's loving plan to incinerate and torture billions of people forever? Nice!

i mean in current time, not long time ago. i agree about crusades and stuff in history being bad.

it is sad that people fight over religion when that goes against what religion is supposed to be about

Notice how nuts all this religion bashing is. Full of bigotry and haterid. I could give a massive list also but off topic. Also there are many sources that answer most of this, maybe I could PM you if interested. Let me know if interested.

[hooter]

Notice how nuts all this religion bashing is. Full of bigotry and haterid. I could give a massive list also but off topic. Also there are many sources that answer most of this, maybe I could PM you if interested. Let me know if interested.

You seem to not understand that 'atheism' is not a group. It's multi-cultural and doesn't need crusades to spread. It arises naturally from the rational mind.
Grouping atheists is like herding cats, and yet you keep doing it.

There are no tenets of atheism. No leaders of atheism. No prophets.

Edited by hooter, 20 February 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I present the form of support most friendly to the internet, one used all over LONGECITY and you whine like a baby. Would a Christian say this? One just did.

Most of the videos I have presented include two sides in debate. Just read your past posts and you will see how nonsensical it now is for you to act as a moral judge as well. Not interested in this childishness. Boring!!!

I am going to follow your line of reasoning and respond the way you respond to others, fair enough? Here we go:

Your response is that of a classic stereotypical fake christian .So self deluded in your profession of faith. Quick to completely ignore the christian teaching and values in your deplorable treatment of other.... yet quick to cry martyr when it is returned in kind. Can't see past your own self righteousness and hypocrisy.

Absolutely not interested in a childish attention whore like yourself.

[mikeinnaples]

Notice how nuts all this religion bashing is. Full of bigotry and haterid.

Fine example of hypocrisy. I hadn't even read this before making my other post, and yet your are kind enough to give me a perfect example.

So predictable that it is comical.

[Valkyrie]

Good point but off topic.Atheists have done their share of hating and killing but never admit anything even when it is right in front of them. Is God possible? .

Sorry about derailing the thread!

i think that certainly God is theoretically possible. In fact i think it is funny how all the scientists think that religion and science are mutually exclusive, when it fact it is obvious to me that this is garbage, since there is no reason why God could not have created science

[shadowhawk]

Good point but off topic.Atheists have done their share of hating and killing but never admit anything even when it is right in front of them. Is God possible? .

Sorry about derailing the thread!

i think that certainly God is theoretically possible. In fact i think it is funny how all the scientists think that religion and science are mutually exclusive, when it fact it is obvious to me that this is garbage, since there is no reason why God could not have created science

God did create everything good, including science. So many theists have been involved in science.

[hooter]

Notice how nuts all this religion bashing is. Full of bigotry and haterid. I could give a massive list also but off topic. Also there are many sources that answer most of this, maybe I could PM you if interested. Let me know if interested.

You weren't interested in anything anyone else had to say in this thread so don't be surprised if nobody gives a fuck. Not interested.

I am going to follow your line of reasoning and respond the way you respond to others, fair enough? Here we go:

Your response is that of a classic stereotypical fake christian .So self deluded in your profession of faith. Quick to completely ignore the christian teaching and values in your deplorable treatment of other.... yet quick to cry martyr when it is returned in kind. Can't see past your own self righteousness and hypocrisy.

Absolutely not interested in a childish attention whore like yourself.

Shadowhawk, this is exactly what all your posts are like.

Edited by hooter, 21 February 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Notice how nuts all this religion bashing is. Full of bigotry and haterid. I could give a massive list also but off topic. Also there are many sources that answer most of this, maybe I could PM you if interested. Let me know if interested.

You weren't interested in anything anyone else had to say in this thread so don't be surprised if nobody gives a fuck. Not interested.

I am going to follow your line of reasoning and respond the way you respond to others, fair enough? Here we go:

Your response is that of a classic stereotypical fake christian .So self deluded in your profession of faith. Quick to completely ignore the christian teaching and values in your deplorable treatment of other.... yet quick to cry martyr when it is returned in kind. Can't see past your own self righteousness and hypocrisy.

Absolutely not interested in a childish attention whore like yourself.

Shadowhawk, this is exactly what all your posts are like.

Nonsense

Edited by shadowhawk, 21 February 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[david ellis]

ON THE MULTIVERSE AND FINE TUNING.

I am taking Biology 100 right now. I have been, since I was twelve, an agnostic. I still am, but I have been shaken. We have been studying cells and I was astounded, the level of signalling and coordination that the cell does is incredible. My first thought was, WOW. It looks like Disneyland with the monorail. My book has a drawing of little vesicles filled with protein with legs and feet proceeding to their delivery destinations. I was deeply impressed with the beauty and logic of the incredible amount of coordination and signalling necessary.

I have been reading James A Shapiro's stuff and also Barbara McClintock's Nobel acceptance speech in 1983. She had done research that indicates genetic changes do not take place molecule by molecule (the way that evolution is supposed to work), she had evidence that large strands of DNA were moving causing dramatic changes. It seems that DNA is not ROM, it seems to be read and write. Before I read about how DNA changes, I was impressed with the coordination and signalling of a single cell. A human cell seems intelligent and that spooked me a bit. But I was not surprised when I read Shapiro's stuff because I already thought there was something like intelligence there and learning that an intelligent process controlled changes to DNA seems very plausible to me. Darwin was a genius, but many scientists have been unhappy with his explanation of variation, and this is the best explanation yet.

I am still an agnostic, but for me, it is not a big jump to believe that there is intelligence guiding evolution. Because cells already have demonstrated a dramatic amount of intelligence. But me, I am just amazed about the mysteries of life. I thought my biology class would be close to a final answer. But it looks like to me the answer is still decades away. The beauty of a process that intelligently changes DNA is incredible.

I won't reply to anyone who hasn't read Shapiro and McClintock and maybe I have written all I should write.

[hooter]

I am still an agnostic, but for me, it is not a big jump to believe that there is intelligence guiding evolution. Because cells already have demonstrated a dramatic amount of intelligence. But me, I am just amazed about the mysteries of life. I thought my biology class would be close to a final answer. But it looks like to me the answer is still decades away. The beauty of a process that intelligently changes DNA is incredible.

If they didn't, you wouldn't be here to post about it. Is this really such a difficult concept to understand?

God did create everything good, including science. So many theists have been involved in science.

Only about 7%, despite them being the majority

Edited by hooter, 11 March 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[DAMABO]

To me it seems just like an excuse to apply the label God. I'm not totally sure, but I'm gonna go over everything in detail later.

I agree. If god is just the information in our universe, god just IS the universe. Or am I missing something?

[wowser]

To me it seems just like an excuse to apply the label God. I'm not totally sure, but I'm gonna go over everything in detail later.

I agree. If god is just the information in our universe, god just IS the universe. Or am I missing something?

say whaaaaat? i think im definitely missing something! lol!

[DAMABO]

To me it seems just like an excuse to apply the label God. I'm not totally sure, but I'm gonna go over everything in detail later.

I agree. If god is just the information in our universe, god just IS the universe. Or am I missing something?

say whaaaaat? i think im definitely missing something! lol!

this was a response to the initial post.

"The idea is that 'god', not quite in the classical sense, is the sum of all the information contained within the multi-verse, which is an ever-expanding hologram (whose thermodynamic entropy is increasing, and informational entropy decreasing). This information is not physically and readily available to our observation, so it can be referred to as non-physical, digital information. "

If god is all the information in the multi-verse, then why would we still call it god, if we can call it the multi-verse?

[shadowhawk]

ON THE MULTIVERSE AND FINE TUNING.

I am taking Biology 100 right now. I have been, since I was twelve, an agnostic. I still am, but I have been shaken. We have been studying cells and I was astounded, the level of signalling and coordination that the cell does is incredible. My first thought was, WOW. It looks like Disneyland with the monorail. My book has a drawing of little vesicles filled with protein with legs and feet proceeding to their delivery destinations. I was deeply impressed with the beauty and logic of the incredible amount of coordination and signalling necessary.

I have been reading James A Shapiro's stuff and also Barbara McClintock's Nobel acceptance speech in 1983. She had done research that indicates genetic changes do not take place molecule by molecule (the way that evolution is supposed to work), she had evidence that large strands of DNA were moving causing dramatic changes. It seems that DNA is not ROM, it seems to be read and write. Before I read about how DNA changes, I was impressed with the coordination and signalling of a single cell. A human cell seems intelligent and that spooked me a bit. But I was not surprised when I read Shapiro's stuff because I already thought there was something like intelligence there and learning that an intelligent process controlled changes to DNA seems very plausible to me. Darwin was a genius, but many scientists have been unhappy with his explanation of variation, and this is the best explanation yet.

I am still an agnostic, but for me, it is not a big jump to believe that there is intelligence guiding evolution. Because cells already have demonstrated a dramatic amount of intelligence. But me, I am just amazed about the mysteries of life. I thought my biology class would be close to a final answer. But it looks like to me the answer is still decades away. The beauty of a process that intelligently changes DNA is incredible.

I won't reply to anyone who hasn't read Shapiro and McClintock and maybe I have written all I should write.

Great study. No argument frpm me. See arguments earlier in this thread. You migjht enjoy this Video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 March 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[wowser]

To me it seems just like an excuse to apply the label God. I'm not totally sure, but I'm gonna go over everything in detail later.

I agree. If god is just the information in our universe, god just IS the universe. Or am I missing something?

say whaaaaat? i think im definitely missing something! lol!

this was a response to the initial post.

"The idea is that 'god', not quite in the classical sense, is the sum of all the information contained within the multi-verse, which is an ever-expanding hologram (whose thermodynamic entropy is increasing, and informational entropy decreasing). This information is not physically and readily available to our observation, so it can be referred to as non-physical, digital information. "

If god is all the information in the multi-verse, then why would we still call it god, if we can call it the multi-verse?

god is called many names... why not multiverse too! lol!

[DAMABO]

ON THE MULTIVERSE AND FINE TUNING.

I am taking Biology 100 right now. I have been, since I was twelve, an agnostic. I still am, but I have been shaken. We have been studying cells and I was astounded, the level of signalling and coordination that the cell does is incredible. My first thought was, WOW. It looks like Disneyland with the monorail. My book has a drawing of little vesicles filled with protein with legs and feet proceeding to their delivery destinations. I was deeply impressed with the beauty and logic of the incredible amount of coordination and signalling necessary.

I have been reading James A Shapiro's stuff and also Barbara McClintock's Nobel acceptance speech in 1983. She had done research that indicates genetic changes do not take place molecule by molecule (the way that evolution is supposed to work), she had evidence that large strands of DNA were moving causing dramatic changes. It seems that DNA is not ROM, it seems to be read and write. Before I read about how DNA changes, I was impressed with the coordination and signalling of a single cell. A human cell seems intelligent and that spooked me a bit. But I was not surprised when I read Shapiro's stuff because I already thought there was something like intelligence there and learning that an intelligent process controlled changes to DNA seems very plausible to me. Darwin was a genius, but many scientists have been unhappy with his explanation of variation, and this is the best explanation yet.

I am still an agnostic, but for me, it is not a big jump to believe that there is intelligence guiding evolution. Because cells already have demonstrated a dramatic amount of intelligence. But me, I am just amazed about the mysteries of life. I thought my biology class would be close to a final answer. But it looks like to me the answer is still decades away. The beauty of a process that intelligently changes DNA is incredible.

I won't reply to anyone who hasn't read Shapiro and McClintock and maybe I have written all I should write.

The only problem is: if intelligence guides evolution, then where did the intelligence come from? that is, the intelligence had to be there BEFORE it could guide biological organisms to be intelligently designed. So following this line of thought, we can only conclude that some intelligences were indeed spontaneously evolved, while others might not.

[shadowhawk]

ON THE MULTIVERSE AND FINE TUNING.

I am taking Biology 100 right now. I have been, since I was twelve, an agnostic. I still am, but I have been shaken. We have been studying cells and I was astounded, the level of signalling and coordination that the cell does is incredible. My first thought was, WOW. It looks like Disneyland with the monorail. My book has a drawing of little vesicles filled with protein with legs and feet proceeding to their delivery destinations. I was deeply impressed with the beauty and logic of the incredible amount of coordination and signalling necessary.

I have been reading James A Shapiro's stuff and also Barbara McClintock's Nobel acceptance speech in 1983. She had done research that indicates genetic changes do not take place molecule by molecule (the way that evolution is supposed to work), she had evidence that large strands of DNA were moving causing dramatic changes. It seems that DNA is not ROM, it seems to be read and write. Before I read about how DNA changes, I was impressed with the coordination and signalling of a single cell. A human cell seems intelligent and that spooked me a bit. But I was not surprised when I read Shapiro's stuff because I already thought there was something like intelligence there and learning that an intelligent process controlled changes to DNA seems very plausible to me. Darwin was a genius, but many scientists have been unhappy with his explanation of variation, and this is the best explanation yet.

I am still an agnostic, but for me, it is not a big jump to believe that there is intelligence guiding evolution. Because cells already have demonstrated a dramatic amount of intelligence. But me, I am just amazed about the mysteries of life. I thought my biology class would be close to a final answer. But it looks like to me the answer is still decades away. The beauty of a process that intelligently changes DNA is incredible.

I won't reply to anyone who hasn't read Shapiro and McClintock and maybe I have written all I should write.

The only problem is: if intelligence guides evolution, then where did the intelligence come from? that is, the intelligence had to be there BEFORE it could guide biological organisms to be intelligently designed. So following this line of thought, we can only conclude that some intelligences were indeed spontaneously evolved, while others might not.

There are a number of ideas where intelligence might come from beside god. I have discussed this elsewhere in this thread. The word “evolved,” implies a beginning and end, a before and after. The first premise of the KALAM argument says, “Anything that has a beginning has a cause.” Premise two says “The cosmos began to exist.”

Evolution is a very powerful argument for the existence o God. It moves from one state to another. See the topic “Atheist, Theist debates in England” for debates on this. See also earlier discussions in the “Faith,” thread.. Here are two videos, one on intelligent design, the other on the Kalam. I am going to post on consciousness and natural laws soon which touch on this. I don’t know what you mean by, “spontaneously evolved.” Tell me a bit more.






.

[platypus]

Premise two says “The cosmos began to exist.”

As already mentioned, that premise might easily be wrong.

Evolution is a very powerful argument for the existence o God.

No it isn't. The theory of evolution does not need god for anything.

[Link]

[shadowhawk]

Premise two says “The cosmos began to exist.”

As already mentioned, that premise might easily be wrong.

Evolution is a very powerful argument for the existence o God.

No it isn't. The theory of evolution does not need god for anything.

No need to go over these issues again and you gave no evidence of your own. I have made my case.
Definition of ID
http://www.longecity...post__p__498808
You offer no evidence and I have.

Peer Review
http://www.discovery.org/a/2640

Atheist Theist debates.
http://www.longecity...post__p__480983

Arguments for Intellignt Design - Evolution
1. http://www.longecity...post__p__491476

2. http://www.longecity...post__p__491932

3. http://www.longecity...post__p__492066

4. http://www.longecity...post__p__492250

5, http://www.longecity...post__p__492433

6. http://www.longecity...post__p__496211

All arguments.. http://www.longecity...post__p__498997


Challenge to Atheists to prove random mutations drive evolution. http://www.longecity...post__p__499021

[hooter]

This isn't a debate, evolution is fact. Go troll some other forum.

[wowser]

This isn't a debate, evolution is fact. Go troll some other forum.

evolution does not disprove God exists... God created evolution... same as all other stuff

[platypus]

This isn't a debate, evolution is fact. Go troll some other forum.

Agreed. The creationist camp has lost the debate around 1860 and still some morons hae a hard time accepting reality. ...no wonder rational people resort to ad hominen arguments after reason has not worked. :D

[wowser]

This isn't a debate, evolution is fact. Go troll some other forum.

Agreed. The creationist camp has lost the debate around 1860 and still some morons hae a hard time accepting reality. ...no wonder rational people resort to ad hominen arguments after reason has not worked. :D

ur confusing creationism with christianity mate! lol!

[DAMABO]

ON THE MULTIVERSE AND FINE TUNING.

I am taking Biology 100 right now. I have been, since I was twelve, an agnostic. I still am, but I have been shaken. We have been studying cells and I was astounded, the level of signalling and coordination that the cell does is incredible. My first thought was, WOW. It looks like Disneyland with the monorail. My book has a drawing of little vesicles filled with protein with legs and feet proceeding to their delivery destinations. I was deeply impressed with the beauty and logic of the incredible amount of coordination and signalling necessary.

I have been reading James A Shapiro's stuff and also Barbara McClintock's Nobel acceptance speech in 1983. She had done research that indicates genetic changes do not take place molecule by molecule (the way that evolution is supposed to work), she had evidence that large strands of DNA were moving causing dramatic changes. It seems that DNA is not ROM, it seems to be read and write. Before I read about how DNA changes, I was impressed with the coordination and signalling of a single cell. A human cell seems intelligent and that spooked me a bit. But I was not surprised when I read Shapiro's stuff because I already thought there was something like intelligence there and learning that an intelligent process controlled changes to DNA seems very plausible to me. Darwin was a genius, but many scientists have been unhappy with his explanation of variation, and this is the best explanation yet.

I am still an agnostic, but for me, it is not a big jump to believe that there is intelligence guiding evolution. Because cells already have demonstrated a dramatic amount of intelligence. But me, I am just amazed about the mysteries of life. I thought my biology class would be close to a final answer. But it looks like to me the answer is still decades away. The beauty of a process that intelligently changes DNA is incredible.

I won't reply to anyone who hasn't read Shapiro and McClintock and maybe I have written all I should write.

The only problem is: if intelligence guides evolution, then where did the intelligence come from? that is, the intelligence had to be there BEFORE it could guide biological organisms to be intelligently designed. So following this line of thought, we can only conclude that some intelligences were indeed spontaneously evolved, while others might not.

There are a number of ideas where intelligence might come from beside god. I have discussed this elsewhere in this thread. The word “evolved,” implies a beginning and end, a before and after. The first premise of the KALAM argument says, “Anything that has a beginning has a cause.” Premise two says “The cosmos began to exist.”

Evolution is a very powerful argument for the existence o God. It moves from one state to another. See the topic “Atheist, Theist debates in England” for debates on this. See also earlier discussions in the “Faith,” thread.. Here are two videos, one on intelligent design, the other on the Kalam. I am going to post on consciousness and natural laws soon which touch on this. I don’t know what you mean by, “spontaneously evolved.” Tell me a bit more.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=NbluTDb1Nfs


http://www.youtube.c...1&v=0YyI29iL-XQ

.

well what I mean with spontaneously evolved is this: if you would somehow need an intelligence to create dna, or other structures characterizing "life", then this implies that there already exists some intelligence. therefore it is necessary that at least some intelligences (i.e. those that afterwards did create/ aid other life forms) already exist. these intelligences come from somewhere, and most likely we don't need to call in any other structure than DNA or some other 'life stuff' that is just as miraculous. This stuff most likely evolved from some other "non-life stuff", as the story goes with dna. and if you were to say "someone could have created this one", then the argument applies again: then there already was some other intelligence which most likely spontaneously, from protein structures, evolved from simple cells, to a whole intelligent organism over the course of time.

[steampoweredgod]

Challenge to Atheists to prove random mutations drive evolution.

There's transposons*(mobile genetic sequences), recombination*(e.g. sexual reproduction), and epigenetic changes that pass through from generation to generation, duplication deletion probability of a sequence may vary on location and base sequence. In any case the driving force is natural selection, iirc, random mutations are merely the seeds. Given variation, evident variation, and evident limited resources natural selection would occur as outcome.


With regards to the complexity ladder or ratchet. Already it's been seen that from simple algorithms vast complexity may emerge*(e.g. new kind of science, universal computation of rule 110). Evolution can increase or decrease complexity or features, because lock-in may occur as codependency of traits emerge as necessary for survival after loss of some functionality or through some other way.

Edited by steampoweredgod, 18 March 2012 - 04:34 AM.