155 replies to this topic

[Animal]

I'm thinking that amphetamine may just not be for me, it induces way too much euphoria next to its therapeutic effects and actually keeps me inside because i prefer just listening music here, AMT on its own is far more therapeutic for me, so gonna stop a while with amp, and try other strategy's with AMT.

I think that is a wise decision, ultimately you'll only be able to move forward in life if you abandon the transitory and unsustainable euphoric state. Stability and consistency of mood in a euthymic state is far more productive and ultimately fulfilling and contenting. This is something I learned over a year ago, and my life has massively improved since I stopped abusing drugs in a recreational capacity. If you've previously abused drugs it takes a while to be satisfied without regular euphoric experiences, and like you've mentioned before you have an addictive personality. So maybe you won't be able to abandon euphoria entirely, but reducing it's regularity is the first step. I find it ironic that you complain about anhedonia actually, when it is one of the classic side-effects of induced euphoria.

I have experimented somewhat with AMT and have decided that it isn't really for me, if anything it lowers my productivity and pragmatism, although it does have some minor-moderate pro-social and mood enhancing effects. I also find that after using I have some negative after effects 2 days later, which includes flat mood/affect and reduced sociability; nothing too unpleasant, but I'm extremely sensitive to changes in my psyche now. How strong is the mood enhancement for you Medieval? Because it was weak to almost unnoticeable for me depending on dose, and I tried up to 15mg (which made me way to spaced out). I believe other pharmaceuticals in my regime are attenuating this effect as well as any energising aspects. It does give me energy, but nowhere near counters my chronic fatigue alone, and is far from as effective at this as Modafinil. At 7.5mgs I found it synergised well with alcohol, but in this circumstance it also dilated my pupils, but this was not noticeable unless you were looking for it. I still intend to experiment with the dose a bit for the weekend usage I previously detailed, but I'm in no rush to do this. I relish the positive mood stability I have on my current regime, and am loathe to disrupt it so if I choose to use it in this capacity it will be a rare occurrence.

As an aside, it also has a horrid odour, and while this is typical of research chemicals; in AMT's case it is particularly unpleasant. I am also fairly certain it has a neurotoxic effect, I am very experienced with recreational drugs of both the legal and illegal kind, including the more esoteric research chemicals and I've found it is fairly easy to tell the difference between a benign and more malignant agent. If anything though I would say it is one of the less damaging of the primarily recreational research chemicals, but I can see long term (1 year+) use causing definite issues.

[e Volution]

I am also fairly certain it has a neurotoxic effect, I am very experienced with recreational drugs of both the legal and illegal kind, including the more esoteric research chemicals and I've found it is fairly easy to tell the difference between a benign and more malignant agent. If anything though I would say it is one of the less damaging of the primarily recreational research chemicals, but I can see long term (1 year+) use causing definite issues.

What criteria do you use to asses this difference in harm between substances? Is this just your subject experience or more of an empirical observation having experimented with various different compounds with various different neurotoxicity levels?

[Animal]

I am also fairly certain it has a neurotoxic effect, I am very experienced with recreational drugs of both the legal and illegal kind, including the more esoteric research chemicals and I've found it is fairly easy to tell the difference between a benign and more malignant agent. If anything though I would say it is one of the less damaging of the primarily recreational research chemicals, but I can see long term (1 year+) use causing definite issues.

What criteria do you use to asses this difference in harm between substances? Is this just your subject experience or more of an empirical observation having experimented with various different compounds with various different neurotoxicity levels?

Yes it is an empirical observation, I take notes during and after an experience, and there are certain characteristics inherent to all recreational drugs that can be compared to assess relative degree of neurotoxicity. Remember that neurotoxic effects manifest themselves symptomatically in both the central/peripheral/sympathetic nervous systems as well as the more subjective psychological assessments associated with the brain. There is no quantification of the toxicity, I cannot claim discrete values for the potential of a substance to cause harm. Only a comparative relation of one substance to another and therefore a qualification for the neurotoxic capacity of a substance.

Of course, this technique is far from ideal, but with a large enough sample size (I have 3 friends who works with substance abusing individuals) you can begin to compensate for subjective differences and ascertain some degree of objectivity. Especially when you can assess individuals who have been using certain substances for many years, and can therefore correlate acute experiences with chronic ones. There are a surprising amount of younger individuals abusing research chemicals, manifesting addiction and toxicity symptoms and then seeking help; from whom, through my friends, I can draw certain conclusions about the toxicity of some of the more esoteric substances.

[j03]

The only thing that cured my SA, ADD, and depression was Propranolol + St. John's Wort + high dose of fish oil. It was quite euphoric and I imagine also good for your OCD.  It would also be less toxic than that cocktail you're taking now.  You got to worry about changing your brain chemistry permanently, or excitotoxity, or burning out, etc. 

[Thorsten3]

The only thing that cured my SA, ADD, and depression was Propranolol + St. John's Wort + high dose of fish oil. It was quite euphoric and I imagine also good for your OCD.  It would also be less toxic than that cocktail you're taking now.  You got to worry about changing your brain chemistry permanently, or excitotoxity, or burning out, etc. 

Propranolol on its own is not an enjoyable thing to take for mood enhancement, although good for anxiety. Interesting it stacks well with SJW in your experience. Was that a long term thing? Are you still on it?

Edited by Thorsten, 10 November 2010 - 01:28 PM.

[j03]

The only thing that cured my SA, ADD, and depression was Propranolol + St. John's Wort + high dose of fish oil. It was quite euphoric and I imagine also good for your OCD. It would also be less toxic than that cocktail you're taking now. You got to worry about changing your brain chemistry permanently, or excitotoxity, or burning out, etc.

Propranolol on its own is not an enjoyable thing to take for mood enhancement, although good for anxiety. Interesting it stacks well with SJW in your experience. Was that a long term thing? Are you still on it?

Propranolol was really good for my mood! It got rid off all the stresss and anxiety from my body leaving me super calm without effecting me cognitively. If you suffer for generalized/social anxiety then the calmness feeling it brings is quite pleasurable as it's amazing to not be burdened with anxiety or nervousness. All the situations where you were previously anxious or nervous in are now manageable, that in itself was quite the mood boost. I turned really confident and cocky on this drug lol Then SJW and fish oil heightened my mood. It was really synergistic for me.

I'm not taking it anymore because it aggravated a bruxism issue I have. Most serotonin agonists or reuptake inhibitors do that to me so I switched to rhodiola rosea (the only thing that cured bruxism for me). RR + propranol works really good, but not as good as SJW.

[medievil]

I am taking nebivolol, a simuler beta blocker that passes the blood brain barrier, however it has zero effect on my anxiety, i never get really nerveus or something where it could be off help (my anxiety is rather caused by hypoactivity of something rather then excess nerveusness, as it feels subjectively atleast), i was taking it for the increase in testosterone and later to counteract amphetamine anxiety.

Things that increase my mood dont seem to be helpfull either, in fact stuff that even makes me high can be useless for social anxiety, ive posted this on mind and muscle before:

Here's what doesnt work for my social anxiety at all:

- Selective serotonine releasers, up to recreational doses, induce euphoria but lack any effect on my social anxiety.
- Alcohol, induces euphoria but doesnt work either
- GHB induces the best euphoria of all those, but doesnt even reduce my SA with 5%.
- Opiates, i'm completely unresponsive to them without stimulants (i can take 60 mg oxycodone without a tolerance and feel nothing, its like a placebo pill, however when i add in a stimulant they do make me euphoric, but that euphoria doesnt reduce my SA.)
- Benzo's, without amphetamine they dont work for me, i can take 20 mg xanax at once and its like a placebo pill, on amps they do make me tired, and stumble around (at normal doses) yet they arent anxiolytic.

Perhaps this can give a few clue's about whats going on, but it seems clear that dopamine induced in the reward pathways doesnt do any favor for my social anxiety, or stimulating anything besides dopamine itself, only dopamine releasing agents are therapeutic for me.

It seems i need dopamine release in certain brainarea's that only amphetamine reaches (or other dopamine releasing agents), however for full remission there's too much comorbid dopamine release in the reward pathways, making me too euphoric, a problem that i think overwrite when the receptors there are downregulated and those beneficial pathways are only causing an effect, leaving me 100% anxiety free, yet not euphoric. (or just completely depressed, no matter how bad the comedown from a recreational dose of MDMA or amphetamine is, my anxiety stays gone for the next day.

I'm not worried about toxiticy with my current combo, other stuff i'm taking prompts dopaminergic cells for survival even when exposed to a powerfull neurotoxin as MTPT, besides that they show antioxidant activity (all at relevant doses), offcourse its wishfull thinking downright assuming this is gonna protect me for sure, but the fact that AMT was in clinical use for so long indicates that no obvious toxiticy occured, offcourse some things can go unnoticed and getting the research papers as important too to get a better idea on this.

Animal, it can be quite euphoric however this euphoria doesnt interfere with my daily life, it makes me happy to get the stuff done i need to get done, as opposed to make me more happy not giving a shit with amphetamine, i may add in amphetamine again if i can inhibit the euphoria, i was thinking about low doses of naltrexone since opiate euphoria isnt anxiolytic for me (wich could indicate it wont destroy the anxiolytic effects of amphetamine).

Edited by medievil, 10 November 2010 - 06:28 PM.

[Thorsten3]

I am taking nebivolol, a simuler beta blocker that passes the blood brain barrier, however it has zero effect on my anxiety, i never get really nerveus or something where it could be off help (my anxiety is rather caused by hypoactivity of something rather then excess nerveusness, as it feels subjectively atleast), i was taking it for the increase in testosterone and later to counteract amphetamine anxiety.

Things that increase my mood dont seem to be helpfull either, in fact stuff that even makes me high can be useless for social anxiety, ive posted this on mind and muscle before:

Here's what doesnt work for my social anxiety at all:

- Selective serotonine releasers, up to recreational doses, induce euphoria but lack any effect on my social anxiety.
- Alcohol, induces euphoria but doesnt work either
- GHB induces the best euphoria of all those, but doesnt even reduce my SA with 5%.
- Opiates, i'm completely unresponsive to them without stimulants (i can take 60 mg oxycodone without a tolerance and feel nothing, its like a placebo pill, however when i add in a stimulant they do make me euphoric, but that euphoria doesnt reduce my SA.)
- Benzo's, without amphetamine they dont work for me, i can take 20 mg xanax at once and its like a placebo pill, on amps they do make me tired, and stumble around (at normal doses) yet they arent anxiolytic.

Perhaps this can give a few clue's about whats going on, but it seems clear that dopamine induced in the reward pathways doesnt do any favor for my social anxiety, or stimulating anything besides dopamine itself, only dopamine releasing agents are therapeutic for me.

It seems i need dopamine release in certain brainarea's that only amphetamine reaches (or other dopamine releasing agents), however for full remission there's too much comorbid dopamine release in the reward pathways, making me too euphoric, a problem that i think overwrite when the receptors there are downregulated and those beneficial pathways are only causing an effect, leaving me 100% anxiety free, yet not euphoric. (or just completely depressed, no matter how bad the comedown from a recreational dose of MDMA or amphetamine is, my anxiety stays gone for the next day.

I'm not worried about toxiticy with my current combo, other stuff i'm taking prompts dopaminergic cells for survival even when exposed to a powerfull neurotoxin as MTPT, besides that they show antioxidant activity (all at relevant doses), offcourse its wishfull thinking downright assuming this is gonna protect me for sure, but the fact that AMT was in clinical use for so long indicates that no obvious toxiticy occured, offcourse some things can go unnoticed and getting the research papers as important too to get a better idea on this.

Animal, it can be quite euphoric however this euphoria doesnt interfere with my daily life, it makes me happy to get the stuff done i need to get done, as opposed to make me more happy not giving a shit with amphetamine, i may add in amphetamine again if i can inhibit the euphoria, i was thinking about low doses of naltrexone since opiate euphoria isnt anxiolytic for me (wich could indicate it wont destroy the anxiolytic effects of amphetamine).

I view aMT as a fun drug. The sort of thing I take if I want to chill, relax and expand my conciousness somewhat (and get high, but it's non addictive for me so I can choose when I want to do this). I found it immense at 7.5mg in terms of being an anti-depressant. Unfortunately I cannot take it daily and I have no need to do so after my own recent personal progress through an uncomfortable episode of depression. I probably indulge in a session every couple of weeks or so, never more than 50mg. I notice an afterglow the following day and then a crash (anhedonia) on post day two. Post day three and I am fine again. That second day following the experience is pretty bad for me and I have to stay strong and remind myself that this is a natural consequence and the feeling will soon pass. The experience itself is very euphoric so I suppose it is pretty natural that what goes up, must come down too. I haven't done MDMA for ages and have actually forgotten what sort of crash you get with that. It must be much worse than aMT.

Edited by Thorsten, 11 November 2010 - 12:04 PM.

[Thorsten3]

I am taking nebivolol, a simuler beta blocker that passes the blood brain barrier, however it has zero effect on my anxiety, i never get really nerveus or something where it could be off help (my anxiety is rather caused by hypoactivity of something rather then excess nerveusness, as it feels subjectively atleast), i was taking it for the increase in testosterone and later to counteract amphetamine anxiety.

Things that increase my mood dont seem to be helpfull either, in fact stuff that even makes me high can be useless for social anxiety, ive posted this on mind and muscle before:

Here's what doesnt work for my social anxiety at all:

- Selective serotonine releasers, up to recreational doses, induce euphoria but lack any effect on my social anxiety.
- Alcohol, induces euphoria but doesnt work either
- GHB induces the best euphoria of all those, but doesnt even reduce my SA with 5%.
- Opiates, i'm completely unresponsive to them without stimulants (i can take 60 mg oxycodone without a tolerance and feel nothing, its like a placebo pill, however when i add in a stimulant they do make me euphoric, but that euphoria doesnt reduce my SA.)
- Benzo's, without amphetamine they dont work for me, i can take 20 mg xanax at once and its like a placebo pill, on amps they do make me tired, and stumble around (at normal doses) yet they arent anxiolytic.

Perhaps this can give a few clue's about whats going on, but it seems clear that dopamine induced in the reward pathways doesnt do any favor for my social anxiety, or stimulating anything besides dopamine itself, only dopamine releasing agents are therapeutic for me.

It seems i need dopamine release in certain brainarea's that only amphetamine reaches (or other dopamine releasing agents), however for full remission there's too much comorbid dopamine release in the reward pathways, making me too euphoric, a problem that i think overwrite when the receptors there are downregulated and those beneficial pathways are only causing an effect, leaving me 100% anxiety free, yet not euphoric. (or just completely depressed, no matter how bad the comedown from a recreational dose of MDMA or amphetamine is, my anxiety stays gone for the next day.

I'm not worried about toxiticy with my current combo, other stuff i'm taking prompts dopaminergic cells for survival even when exposed to a powerfull neurotoxin as MTPT, besides that they show antioxidant activity (all at relevant doses), offcourse its wishfull thinking downright assuming this is gonna protect me for sure, but the fact that AMT was in clinical use for so long indicates that no obvious toxiticy occured, offcourse some things can go unnoticed and getting the research papers as important too to get a better idea on this.

Animal, it can be quite euphoric however this euphoria doesnt interfere with my daily life, it makes me happy to get the stuff done i need to get done, as opposed to make me more happy not giving a shit with amphetamine, i may add in amphetamine again if i can inhibit the euphoria, i was thinking about low doses of naltrexone since opiate euphoria isnt anxiolytic for me (wich could indicate it wont destroy the anxiolytic effects of amphetamine).

To be fair your condition must be pretty bad mate if you do choose to experiment like this so I don't think any of us can critisize you. A few years back I would have been the same, my anxiety and nervousness in general everyday life was bordering on almost suicide. That was after a two year period where I abused every drug going, so my brain was literally fried. My diet was appalling, I never exercised and I had problems with where I was going in life so hated my job, hated myself and everyone around me. It's really weird what they say, time is a healer. Time is the only thing that has healed my brain after drug use. Diet and exercise have sure helped but ultimately they were never going to fix me in a year by themselves. So yeah it wasn't a good time for me back then, and if aMT was offered to me I would have taken it no question. I doubt you're this bad but I can appreciate the measures we go to just to get relief.

[medievil]

I dont really suffer from depression wich would be the worst thing to go trough, ive had my condition since as long as i can remember and the biggest reason i take AMT as there's not much other options. And i rather want an active life then being isolated, ive stopped taking all drugs once for a few months and i only felt worse because i didnt have my anxiety free sundays anymore and thus didnt see my friends anymore.

Id pay money to get the MDMA comedown every day, how ironic that sounds lol.

Glad you are feeling better mate. Drugs havent done you any good, good luck staying off them and continue what your doing now, i'm sure it will help you in the long run.

[Animal]

I notice an afterglow the following day and then a crash (anhedonia) on post day two. Post day three and I am fine again. That second day following the experience is pretty bad for me and I have to stay strong and remind myself that this is a natural consequence and the feeling will soon pass. The experience itself is very euphoric so I suppose it is pretty natural that what goes up, must come down too.

This is exactly what I experienced, to a much lesser degree, when taking smaller doses of up to 15mg/day for a 3 day period. Like I mention in my previous post on AMT, it involved decreased sociability and a flat affect. Not something I would want to experience regularly, and I value the consistently positive mood that I've finally achieved too much to risk it with any substances that involve a 'comedown'. Then again I really would like to be able to keep up with my friends on a night out without chugging ridiculous amounts of Modafinil and Caffiene, Chronic Fatigue is a bitch! I suppose any substance that is enough of a psychostimulant to give me sufficient energy to last an entire night is bound to have negative after-effects.

Any suggestions?

[jadamgo]

Hmmm... I've found that cooked or aged Pu'erh tea provides an energizing effect that I really believe is due to something other than caffeine. I personally dislike caffeine in all but the lowest doses, because it makes me trembly and anxious without increasing energy or alertness. But whenever I drink a mug or two of Pu'erh tea, it gives increased energy for a few hours without causing the jitters. (Drinking more than 3 mugs starts to make me feel too caffeinated, because Pu'erh does have a bit of caffeine in it in addition to the wakefulness-promoting agent.)

I don't know if it has any effectiveness in CFS. I've given it to a few friends of mine and they said they also felt awake, but not caffeinated -- but I don't know how strong of a stimulant you would need in order to be helped. If you like modafinil, it could be worth a try. The only downside is that it only lasts about 2-4 hours. And as far as tea goes, good aged or cooked Pu'erh is a bit expensive. On the other hand, a month supply of Pu'erh tea would cost about as much as a week of modafinil. So even though it's an expensive tea, it's not an expensive nootropic.

[Thorsten3]

I notice an afterglow the following day and then a crash (anhedonia) on post day two. Post day three and I am fine again. That second day following the experience is pretty bad for me and I have to stay strong and remind myself that this is a natural consequence and the feeling will soon pass. The experience itself is very euphoric so I suppose it is pretty natural that what goes up, must come down too.

This is exactly what I experienced, to a much lesser degree, when taking smaller doses of up to 15mg/day for a 3 day period. Like I mention in my previous post on AMT, it involved decreased sociability and a flat affect. Not something I would want to experience regularly, and I value the consistently positive mood that I've finally achieved too much to risk it with any substances that involve a 'comedown'. Then again I really would like to be able to keep up with my friends on a night out without chugging ridiculous amounts of Modafinil and Caffiene, Chronic Fatigue is a bitch! I suppose any substance that is enough of a psychostimulant to give me sufficient energy to last an entire night is bound to have negative after-effects.

Any suggestions?

So you're currently downing can after can of monster? lol
Sounds like you want something that gives you energy, doesn't come with pupil dilation, lasts a decent amount of time, helps in social situations... I think I am searching for this very thing myself! I was into GHB a while back which I found very euphoric and stimulating and it was the perfect socializer and party drug for me, until I lost control of my usage and from then on it was a downward spiral. Not recommended for when you are out and about, although a lot of people do use it that way.

I don't have many ideas really. You obviously have lots of RC's out there but a lot of those do come with similar crashes to what you'd get from MDMA and also the dreaded pupil dilation.

From what I've read of your posts you seem pretty anti-amphetamines (excuse me if i'm wrong), I have heard they don't come with pupil dilaton (well dexedrine).. But hey I may be totally wrong there it was just something someone said to me a while back (not sure if this is the case). I'd imagine you've probably tried them no? So you may know more than me. I can appreciate your apprehension about using something like that but I am considering this myself as an experiment for recreational purposes to test how efficient it might be. I don't drink or do drugs nowadays when I go out (well, I will drink on occasions). I know that with dexedrine the more you take, the more euphoric you become, but I'm sure there would be a sweet spot for socializing purposes so controling usage would be essential. Not sure if it would have the capacity to give you energy for the physical side of all nighters at clubs and things, the only thing I have ever found effective for that is street drugs such as amphetamine, MDMA and others that are similar which I took on occasions a few years back.

As an aside alcohol and SJW is very pleasant if you are just out casually being social at the pub. Also alcohol with cacao is very nice. From my experience let the effects of SJW and cacao kick in before you start drinking. For some reason they seem to make drinking fun and pleasurable for me (normally alcohol depresses me and takes me down).

Edited by Thorsten, 15 November 2010 - 11:29 PM.

[medievil]

I notice an afterglow the following day and then a crash (anhedonia) on post day two. Post day three and I am fine again. That second day following the experience is pretty bad for me and I have to stay strong and remind myself that this is a natural consequence and the feeling will soon pass. The experience itself is very euphoric so I suppose it is pretty natural that what goes up, must come down too.

This is exactly what I experienced, to a much lesser degree, when taking smaller doses of up to 15mg/day for a 3 day period. Like I mention in my previous post on AMT, it involved decreased sociability and a flat affect. Not something I would want to experience regularly, and I value the consistently positive mood that I've finally achieved too much to risk it with any substances that involve a 'comedown'. Then again I really would like to be able to keep up with my friends on a night out without chugging ridiculous amounts of Modafinil and Caffiene, Chronic Fatigue is a bitch! I suppose any substance that is enough of a psychostimulant to give me sufficient energy to last an entire night is bound to have negative after-effects.

Any suggestions?

What about a non neurotoxic stimulant like desoxypipradol? Altough you can get a crash from that too, it may be less bad then with AMT tough.

I managed to get one paper on AMT allready, unfortionally this one isnt about the human clinical trials.

INVOLVEMENT
OF 5HYDROXYTRYPTAMINE
AND
DOPAMINE NEURONES IN THE BEHAVIOURAL
EFFECTS OF wMETHYLYTRYPTAMINE

Summary-a-Methyltryptamine
(10 mg/kg) produced a two-phased behavioural response in the rat. The
first phase consisted of responses such as hind limb abduction, forepaw treading, lateral head weaving
and Straub tail and lasted up to 90 min. The second phase of the behavioural response lasted up to 4 hr
and consisted of marked running and exploratory activity.
p-Chlorophenylalanine (150 mg/kg), which depletes brain 5-hydroxytryptamine, prevented both phases
of the behavioural response. a-Flupenthixol (0.4 mg/kg) a dopamine receptor antagonist also attenuated
both phases of the response. Metergoline (2 mg/kg), a 5-hydroxytryptamine receptor antagonist, abol-
ished the initial phase of the response but had no effect on the second phase and the animals showed
well co-ordinated exploratory behaviour throughout the experimental period. Fluoxetine (10 mg/kg),
which probably inhibited the uptake of a-methyltryptamine into 5-hydroxytryptamine neurones, pre-
vented the initial response and reduced the second phase. Pimozide (0.3 mg/kg), another dopamine
receptor anatgonist, had no effect on the first part of the response but significantly reduced the second
exploratory phase. There was no significant change in brain 5-hydroxytryptamine and 5-hydroxyindo-
leactic acid during the time course of the initial behavioural response. In uiuo electrochemical recordings,
from the striatum and hippocampus, indicated an increase in extraneuronal amine, probably mainly
5-hydroxytryptamine, during the initial phase.
The results indicate that the initial behavioural response is primarily due to a pre-synaptic action of
cc-methyltryptamine on 5-hydroxytryptamine neurones but with the participation of dopamine neurones.
The second phase involved more general stimulation of dopamine neurones. but an intact 5-hydroxy-
tryptamine neuronal system appears essential.

Attached Files

•  1980_Marden_Involvement.pdf   890.73KB   26 downloads

[medievil]

Theoretically naltrexone should allow me:

- Take the correct amphetamine doses combined with AMT for full remission without excess euphoria.
- Not interfere with the anxiolytic effects since dopamine release in the mesolimbic reward pathways isnt exactly usefull for my anxiety.
- Significantly block the crashes, witch are mediated by dopamine downregulation in the reward pathways, blunted dopamine release there should avoid that from occuring.
- Further increase cortisol compared with amphetamine alone.

One potential downside, even tough it has a short half life it appears that the MU opioid receptors stay blocked for 72 h after a single 50 mg dose, wich could interfere with my GBL doses in the evening :lol: .

However, according to the VAS score when coadministiring naltrexone with amphetamine, the rewarding and subjective effects are still there, just blunted, wich theoretically means i can adjust the naltrexone dose so the reward i'm getting from amphetamine is just above baseline (no use in staying in my anhedonic mood).



I'm also gonna try rimonabant after this, i suspect its even better since MJ is highly anxiogenic for me, so theoretically it should be pretty anxiolytic.

I'm probably the only guy on the internet trying to inhibit amp euphoria but i'm dead on on finding a regime that fixes my anxiety 100%, simular to how i feel on the MDMA crash B) . A state where i beleive dopamine internalization took place in the mesolimbic reward pathways while dopamine still has its effect in the brain area's involved in my social anxiety, i'm hoping that coadministration of naltrexone and amphetamine causes a simular effect.

[aLurker]

Theoretically naltrexone should allow me:

- Take the correct amphetamine doses combined with AMT for full remission without excess euphoria.
- Not interfere with the anxiolytic effects since dopamine release in the mesolimbic reward pathways isnt exactly usefull for my anxiety.
- Significantly block the crashes, witch are mediated by dopamine downregulation in the reward pathways, blunted dopamine release there should avoid that from occuring.
- Further increase cortisol compared with amphetamine alone.

One potential downside, even tough it has a short half life it appears that the MU opioid receptors stay blocked for 72 h after a single 50 mg dose, wich could interfere with my GBL doses in the evening :lol: .

However, according to the VAS score when coadministiring naltrexone with amphetamine, the rewarding and subjective effects are still there, just blunted, wich theoretically means i can adjust the naltrexone dose so the reward i'm getting from amphetamine is just above baseline (no use in staying in my anhedonic mood).



I'm also gonna try rimonabant after this, i suspect its even better since MJ is highly anxiogenic for me, so theoretically it should be pretty anxiolytic.

I'm probably the only guy on the internet trying to inhibit amp euphoria but i'm dead on on finding a regime that fixes my anxiety 100%, simular to how i feel on the MDMA crash B) . A state where i beleive dopamine internalization took place in the mesolimbic reward pathways while dopamine still has its effect in the brain area's involved in my social anxiety, i'm hoping that coadministration of naltrexone and amphetamine causes a simular effect.

Please post this on bluelight too. I can already imagine the torches and pitchforks as they drive you from their village.

[medievil]

Please post this on bluelight too. I can already imagine the torches and pitchforks as they drive you from their village.

LOL

[medievil]

Today i'm trying a combination of aMT and desoxypipradol, i never found desoxy very recreational (eather talkative with a bit of euphoria but dosing higher and it gets psychiotc) i'm hoping this could give me the extra talkative and social conctact urge i need, atleast if it works out chances are desoxy's DRI action blocks aMT dopamine's release leaving me with a serotonine releasing agent and NDRI.

[Logan]

Medieval, do you think it's a realistic goal to achieve 100 % remission of anxiety? That's like shooting for never feeling depressed again. Unfortunately, anxiety and depression are just a part of life. Don't you think that 80 % relief of anxiety would enable you more than enough to do everything you want to do in life with reasonable comfort. For me personally, if I get 70 to 80 percent relief from axiety through pharaceutical interventions, I know several things I can do to take care of the remaining small amount of anxiety.

All I'm saying is I do not believe anyone, even the most mentally healthy people, have 100 percent relief from anxiety or depression. If you do achieve 100 percent relief, you may be putting yourself in a position of not being in touch with things that may be of some benefit to you. It's like being drunk or feeling great on a recreational drug, your not fully in touch with reality at that point.

Edited by morganator, 21 November 2010 - 06:52 PM.

[medievil]

Well, i used to be in a place where i didnt have any confidence or any social skills from my anxiety, in those stituation it would have definatly been impossible to get fixed by the 100% alone.

However after that i started using MDMA, and the anxiolytic effects of MDMA last the full next day, long after MDMA stopped working, and the first weeks it happened i had still my confidence issues and still not enough social skills, but over the weeks i have build up my confidence, and have build up my social skills (both needed for full remission).

Now i'm just left with what i beleive is the neurological problem (dopamine mediated to be exact) so i cant feel comfortable around ppl and avoid them, its not like i start worrying i'm gonna say stupid things, its just exhaustion kicking in and an uneasy feeling to be around them, also the lack of social reward and exhaustion makes the experience far from pleasant.

With 100% i just mean how i am in the MDMA crash, when the high is gone, but my SA fully gone too, i know what i'm aiming for.

My view of being 100% fixed alligns with my reality, i would just enjoy going out with my mates, go to work, and do all other normal things everyone does.

SA needs to be 100% fixed to be able to enjoy going out with mates, i can as well stay hypomanic on amp and get 60% relief, but whats the use, in company of my friends i can act confident and dont feel as bad, but i still dont enjoy going out with them, thats why i'm aiming for the 100%

Edited by medievil, 21 November 2010 - 07:01 PM.

[medievil]

Also i'm not aiming to be a social machine, somethimes in the mdma crash i feel pretty crappy and dont feel like going out with anyone but my sa still 100% gone if someone rings the door and have a laugh with them, zero anxiety etc. Its certainly nothing related to being "high" or euphoric, hence nearly all euphoric substances dont have an effect on me, for example GHB can be high and dont care about anything then i'm with other ppl and i feel the exhaustion and uneasiness kicking in.

Edited by medievil, 21 November 2010 - 07:09 PM.

[Nootropic Cat]

Two things.

One, I'm a recluse and very happy about it. For several years I was acutely paranoid/social phobic etc. in the aftermath of drug abuse; over time I got better but also realised I liked solitude better than company. Was this a permanent change or an accidental discovery of my true self? I don't know and it doesn't matter. I don't have any particular point to make, just might be food for thought.

Second, although I seem to metabolise food very quickly (maintain low weight despite what I eat) it seems to be the reverse with drugs. There have been many occasions when I have taken coke or MDMA and been unable to sleep for 24 hours afterwards. This may be just psycholgical (I am an insomniac) but if it is a recognised phenomenon, you may be the same. It could be that your positive effects the day after MDMA etc. are because you are still on it, even though you 'should' have processed it all by that point.

Edited by medievil, 22 November 2010 - 12:12 PM.

[medievil]

Two things.

One, I'm a recluse and very happy about it. For several years I was acutely paranoid/social phobic etc. in the aftermath of drug abuse; over time I got better but also realised I liked solitude better than company. Was this a permanent change or an accidental discovery of my true self? I don't know and it doesn't matter. I don't have any particular point to make, just might be food for thought.

Second, although I seem to metabolise food very quickly (maintain low weight despite what I eat) it seems to be the reverse with drugs. There have been many occasions when I have taken coke or MDMA and been unable to sleep for 24 hours afterwards. This may be just psycholgical (I am an insomniac) but if it is a recognised phenomenon, you may be the same. It could be that your positive effects the day after MDMA etc. are because you are still on it, even though you 'should' have processed it all by that point.

Well yes, i definatly think the drugs are still active in my system and that monoamine levels are still elevated, with the one exception that receptor internalisation took place in the reward related area's (that is also why you crash from amphetamine even before your over te half life)

[Logan]

Two things.

One, I'm a recluse and very happy about it. For several years I was acutely paranoid/social phobic etc. in the aftermath of drug abuse; over time I got better but also realised I liked solitude better than company. Was this a permanent change or an accidental discovery of my true self? I don't know and it doesn't matter. I don't have any particular point to make, just might be food for thought.

You are in the very very small minority. People need people, this is the way we evolved, it's built into our dna. Maybe you just like the relief you get from not feeling anxiety around people so much that you started to believe you were better off spending most of your life alone. Or maybe you are one of those rare birds that simply needs solitude in order to experience comfort.

[medievil]

Today i'm trying a combination of aMT and desoxypipradol, i never found desoxy very recreational (eather talkative with a bit of euphoria but dosing higher and it gets psychiotc) i'm hoping this could give me the extra talkative and social conctact urge i need, atleast if it works out chances are desoxy's DRI action blocks aMT dopamine's release leaving me with a serotonine releasing agent and NDRI.

Desoxy sucked, it felt like a long acting version of ambien that releases NE, also seemed to inhibit AMT as i tough could be possible.
No need for this anymore, restovers in the bin.0

Next experiment, naltrexone + Amphetamine, lets see wheter my theory is correct.

[medievil]

Two things.

One, I'm a recluse and very happy about it. For several years I was acutely paranoid/social phobic etc. in the aftermath of drug abuse; over time I got better but also realised I liked solitude better than company. Was this a permanent change or an accidental discovery of my true self? I don't know and it doesn't matter. I don't have any particular point to make, just might be food for thought.

I think i'm extroverted by nature, wich really shows itself the moments i'm free of anxiety, i also go out with extroverted people then, just with SA i cant be around them as i feel way to uncomfortable.

Before i started using drugs i had more shy friends, but ive allways felt like that i didnt belong there, they had boring intrests, did activities i disliked i really wasnt like them, untill the days after mdma where i was free of SA, i went right away to the extroverted people we allways went along really well, and we we mostly had simular intrests in that group and had alot of fun.

Generally i beleive im extroverted, but with a wall of SA around me, wich i want to abolish, hell i dont feel happy if i'm at school (want to go to the university next year) and cant be my trough self, it makes me really frustated, and just a 70% decrease in anxiety wont be enough.

[medievil]

Two things.

One, I'm a recluse and very happy about it. For several years I was acutely paranoid/social phobic etc. in the aftermath of drug abuse; over time I got better but also realised I liked solitude better than company. Was this a permanent change or an accidental discovery of my true self? I don't know and it doesn't matter. I don't have any particular point to make, just might be food for thought.

You are in the very very small minority. People need people, this is the way we evolved, it's built into our dna. Maybe you just like the relief you get from not feeling anxiety around people so much that you started to believe you were better off spending most of your life alone. Or maybe you are one of those rare birds that simply needs solitude in order to experience comfort.

I think he's talking about the difference btw introverted and extroverted people.

[Nootropic Cat]

Yeah, if you're extroverted I can really see how that sucks and I hope you get this stuff fixed up. Obv I have some close friends I'd gladly see every day, but in general I just love being inside my head thinking about stuff. Just the presence of other people when I'm walking around or whatever is 'noisy' to me and kind of parasitises on my brain space.

[medievil]

Yeah, if you're extroverted I can really see how that sucks and I hope you get this stuff fixed up. Obv I have some close friends I'd gladly see every day, but in general I just love being inside my head thinking about stuff. Just the presence of other people when I'm walking around or whatever is 'noisy' to me and kind of parasitises on my brain space.

I allways get really frustrated when my friends are outside and i have to stay inside because my anxiety is bad, really pisses me off. Without anxiety there's nothing more fun then hanging around with friends imo.

[Cephalon]

Crazy what people ingest these days ... for longlivity

Edited by Cephalon, 25 November 2010 - 10:34 PM.