19 replies to this topic

[j03]

I have a friend who has OCD. She is taking St. John's Wort and is going to add in 5-HTP as the therapeutic effects of SJW on it's own isn't pronounced. For many years she was on a relatively high dose of Effexor (over 300MG's), so the additive effect of 5-HTP to a mild serotonin reuptake inhibitor should only help (At moderate dosages of course). The horrible experience she went through with Effexor withdrawl is why she wants to try this route and isn't interested in pharmaceuticals right now. She's taking Perika SJW 300mg (containing a minimum level of 3% hyperforin) 3 times / day, but is going to scale it back to twice a day and add in 5-HTP probably @ 50 MG.

My questions are:

At what doses of each do you run into a problem with serotonin syndrome? Has anyone had positive experiences with this combo for OCD? She also has fatigue issues and was mentioning she's feeling it on the Perika brand, so will this combo make that more pronounced, or will it be more energizing? Are there any caveats I should pass along?
She's going to take this with B vitamins, vitamin D, and maybe glycine if it isn't sedating... as well as a multi, fish oil etc. She stopped inositol because it was effecting the positive feelings of the SJW.

P.S. if for any reason this isn't an optimal non sedating OCD combo, how about these options:
l-theanine and 5-HTP? SJW + l-theanine? SJW + l-theanine + 5-HTP? (all three are on hand). Or how about St. John's Wort + nicotene to solve the energy issues and bring focus and additive OCD treatment?

Edited by k4t, 08 November 2010 - 04:20 PM.

[j03]

Maybe I should have posted this in the supplements forum.

But after further reseach I've found tryptophan works better than 5-HTP for OCD, and would be more efficacious with SJW.

So, St. John's wort + tryptophan + a nicotene patch is what I'll recommend.

What's the upper limit one can take of SJW + tryptophan before you run into problems?

[smoothVTer]

I have a friend who has OCD. She is taking St. John's Wort and is going to add in 5-HTP as the therapeutic effects of SJW on it's own isn't pronounced. For many years she was on a relatively high dose of Effexor (over 300MG's), so the additive effect of 5-HTP to a mild serotonin reuptake inhibitor should only help (At moderate dosages of course). The horrible experience she went through with Effexor withdrawl is why she wants to try this route and isn't interested in pharmaceuticals right now. She's taking Perika SJW 300mg (containing a minimum level of 3% hyperforin) 3 times / day, but is going to scale it back to twice a day and add in 5-HTP probably @ 50 MG.

My questions are:

At what doses of each do you run into a problem with serotonin syndrome? Has anyone had positive experiences with this combo for OCD? She also has fatigue issues and was mentioning she's feeling it on the Perika brand, so will this combo make that more pronounced, or will it be more energizing? Are there any caveats I should pass along?
She's going to take this with B vitamins, vitamin D, and maybe glycine if it isn't sedating... as well as a multi, fish oil etc. She stopped inositol because it was effecting the positive feelings of the SJW.

P.S. if for any reason this isn't an optimal non sedating OCD combo, how about these options:
l-theanine and 5-HTP? SJW + l-theanine? SJW + l-theanine + 5-HTP? (all three are on hand). Or how about St. John's Wort + nicotene to solve the energy issues and bring focus and additive OCD treatment?

I will second the opinion on using tryptophan vs. 5-HTP alone. In some cases tryptophan would be better because it gets metabolized into a couple of different substances within the body, on an as needed basis, whereas 5-HTP can only ever become serotonin.

I had a hell of a time also getting over the Effexor too, after taking it for more than a year straight. It isn't easy to come off that drug. The after effects had their own set of hurdles which were not really any better than the major depression anyway.

[NR2(x)]

I understand that serotonin(5-htp) bindings in the brain (very generally) reduces working memory, emotional context, and is hence undesirable as an antidepressent. I understand the serotonin has metabolites that increase working memory ,emotional conext, neutrophins, ATPase activity. However supplemental 5-htp does not penerate the BBB, but is converted to metabolites in the body, which later penerate the brain for antidepressant effect,5-htp always has the danger of causing heart valve fibrosis . Trytophan does penerate the BBB and therefore does have the potential to decrease mood and memory, but the bodies rate limiting controls should deal with this, allowing the potential for an antidepressant effect. Subjective experience as above are of value here.

At what point this syndrome may manefest is highly individually specific, it is therefore dangerous to guess. Tapering is the only effective method, and does have dangers, in that variation of dietary amino acids can cause massive changes in the level of serotonin like substances. These serotonin like substance are not specific to trytrophan based molecules, in that Hyperflorin is a 6-hydroxalase dopamine inhibitor, meaning that it increase a dopamine metabolite that functions similarly to a serotonin metabolite.
I actually cant back any of this up, so use at ones own discreation.

[j03]

 I know the upper limit would be variable.  The recommended daily dosages are 500 mg Tryptophan, and Perika SJW 300 MG (containing a minimum level of 3% hyperforin) 3 times / day.

I'm just trying to gauge based on approximation if this is a high or moderate amount to combine for a woman in her late 20's, 5'8 (no idea her weight but slim/ectomorph).  How much further could she go above this dose? (in case of accidental/double dosing, etc.).  I'm sure it would be significantly higher? She was on a fairly high dose of Effexor (~300MG), and I remember she smoked pot a couple times with no sign of serotonin syndrome, so I assume she has a bit of a tolerance. 

This would be combined with a nicotene patch of course. 

Edited by k4t, 09 November 2010 - 04:41 AM.

[j03]

Also, is the vasoconstriction from a nicotine patch significant?

How about adding ginko biloba to the above stack to offset this?

So, 500 mg Tryptophan, and Perika SJW 300 MG (containing a minimum level of 3% hyperforin) 3 times / day +ginko biloba as a baseline.  Any issues here?

[NR2(x)]

For the record I ment to say Hypercin not hyperflorin, both a constients of SJW.
I would habitate SJW before adding any amino acid. I cannot give guidence on the dosage where serotonin syndrome may begin. However I understand that subtle symptoms will be present before real problems begin, so long as a slow dosage taper is used. There are quite a few amino acids that can contribute to sert syn. These include atleast two phenyl amino acids. COCOA could be dangerous.

Ginko is a really good idea with nicotine, I understand that it improves alertness and memory in the general population.
Nicotine is a strong vasoconstrictor, it can cause necrosis in health adults.

[tlm884]

Also, is the vasoconstriction from a nicotine patch significant?

How about adding ginko biloba to the above stack to offset this?

So, 500 mg Tryptophan, and Perika SJW 300 MG (containing a minimum level of 3% hyperforin) 3 times / day +ginko biloba as a baseline. Any issues here?

The only problem I can see is that the tryptophan can be sedating and its best taken 2 hours after food or an hour before.

[Thorsten3]

Do you know what SJW she is taking? There is a big difference in quality from one brand to the next. She needs to try these brands before saying SJW has limited effect. Everything else may as well be garbage. These ones below are the only ones with actual studies (well Perika, Kira do for sure - the rest have pages of anecdotal evidence). The SJW forums are a good place to learn about these.

The best are:

1.Kira
2.Perika
3.SC27
4.HBC Protocols
5.Serofin

If she is looking for that serotonergic blanket then go with Serofin or Kira.

I also agree that tryptophan is far better than 5HTP. Although far more sedating. If you take it late in the day be prepared for some serious sleep. It converts to melatonin afterall.

Edit: Sorry just read that she's on Perika and she suffers from fatigue. Well she could always try the others? SC27 is very stimulating I hear but it's still SJW so is serotonergic. It may be a case of trying all of these you know before she makes a decision to throw in 5HTP to the mix?
It may be that the fatigue is a natural side effect for her on SJW. Hence SJW may not be the right thing for her.
She could always try cacao. I use it as an anti-depressive. It has a opiate like feeling and never decreases in effect. Day long effects. No tolerance issues. It makes me very happy, positive and optimistic, sociable and it has some strange mechanism in protecting me from stress. My head used to hurt so bad because I'd get so wrapped up in shit that was going on around me. A recent improvement in diet and the addition of cacao has been key to my progress. I could link you the source of where I get my cacao if you like. I do appreciate that difference in brands do count for a lot. I mix it in my smoothie each morning and enjoy the rest of the day. No negative effects whatsoever. Well, maybe it's a slight de-motivator and contributes slightly to my procrastination but it's nothing overly destructive.

Edited by Thorsten, 09 November 2010 - 09:34 AM.

[NR2(x)]

Why not add Q10, R-Alpha lopic acid ,tryosine, Mg+2

[j03]

She could always try cacao. I use it as an anti-depressive. It has a opiate like feeling and never decreases in effect. Day long effects. No tolerance issues. It makes me very happy, positive and optimistic, sociable and it has some strange mechanism in protecting me from stress. My head used to hurt so bad because I'd get so wrapped up in shit that was going on around me. A recent improvement in diet and the addition of cacao has been key to my progress. I could link you the source of where I get my cacao if you like. I do appreciate that difference in brands do count for a lot. I mix it in my smoothie each morning and enjoy the rest of the day. No negative effects whatsoever. Well, maybe it's a slight de-motivator and contributes slightly to my procrastination but it's nothing overly destructive.

I think that's a great idea.  SJW is a mild MAOI inhibitor and the phenethylamine might be able to reach the brain when taken with it.  

Does anyone know if this work similar to the deprenyl + PEA (Phenethylamine) combo for getting PEA to the brain? Would tryptophan help this?

I'd appreciate if you messaged me the link to the source!

I'm sure that could provide some energy or a cumulative mood boost at least.  

Why not add  Q10, R-Alpha lopic acid ,tryosine, Mg+2

Q10, R-ala and mg2 have a positive effect on OCD?

...


And I read that it's nearly impossible to achieve severe serotonin syndrome without an MAOI or 5-HT-releasing compound (But isn't SJW a MAOI?). And it's not subtle if it does occur (hyperthermia) and easy to treat (benzodiazepines, antihistamines/anticholinergics, and beta blockers all work), etc.  so serotonin syndrome shouldn't be a problem in moderate dosages.  Right now I'm just worried about it being sedating (as I said there's a fatigue issue) as that's why I'm thinking a nicotene patch would be best

At first try: Perika SJW until the Kira brand comes in (SC27 St. John's Wort is too expensive) + cocoa

It that doesn't work SJW + tryptophan + cocoa

If that's not effective then drop cocoa and add in a nicotene patch

How does that sound?

[ajnast4r]

no one knows what the upper limit for mixing SJW and things like tryptophan, 5htp or ginkgo is. mixing any of those with SJW is playing with fire.

SJW (even at low doses) + PEA in any form, including unprocessed cocoa or cocoa extracts reacts VERY VERY negatively in me... gives me nearly uncontrollable anger.

Edited by ajnast4r, 10 November 2010 - 07:22 AM.

[NR2(x)]

no one knows what the upper limit for mixing SJW and things like tryptophan, 5htp or ginkgo is. mixing any of those with SJW is playing with fire.

SJW (even at low doses) + PEA in any form, including unprocessed cocoa or cocoa extracts reacts VERY VERY negatively in me... gives me nearly uncontrollable anger.

Agreed +1
There are some amines that are not "publicly" discussed, but are very strong. PEA and dopamine do bind together

[j03]

Would SJW being an MAOI allow phenylethylamine to reach the brain?
SJW + PEA then would be a very potent anitdepressant! 

Edit: I didn't read your full post.  I would imagine it would be euphoric (the chocolate feeling of love).  Maybe different people react differently to it. 

Edited by k4t, 10 November 2010 - 08:12 AM.

[ajnast4r]

SJW is a very very complex drug. it effects a multitude of pathways.

[NR2(x)]

Not really, Hypercin has only one real effect; Inhibition of beta-dopamine hydroxalase, this has effect on the relative concentration of "sigma agonist", which are very complex.

[Thorsten3]

i've always read that SJW has very negligable MOAI properties. It acts more as a SSRI. I'm not sure if it would synergize with chocolate. I agree you'd have to be careful. I mixed SJW with curcumin and this felt pretty nasty. SJW and chocolate are both extremely complex it might just be too much for your brain to work out, and you could end up feeling worse. If you were looking for benefits of PEA then dep would be the way to go but you'd need to be aware of the risks as that combo is potentially lethal. Not something you'd be able to control very easily.

[Thorsten3]

my source for the chocolate is indigoherbs based in the UK. Buy the powder it seems to have a more active effect than the nibs

[NR2(x)]

Dont take SJW and Phenylethylamine, there will be a strong synergistic effects, that could be very dangerous. Natural foods containing small amounts should be ok, that is if your not near a natural limit or taking something else

[TheFountain]

NR2(x)

You have said a lot of alarmist things, but do you have any sources for them?