83 replies to this topic

[Antonio2014]

But it does show a pathway by which laymen might improve biostatis

 

No, it doesn't. Again, we aren't brine shrimp eggs.

 

For that matter, Geekhere is another layman with another potentially useful idea: use some sort of electromagnetic effect to interfere with ice crystal formation, presumably until we reach the vitrification temperature of water, at which water is an amorphous solid like window glass. Perhaps nuclear magnetic resonance or heavy water might be of assistance, for that matter.

 

Or perhaps we can pray to Osiris and he can preserve us for all eternity. An unfounded idea is not useful at all.

 

Clearly, less than 1% of the scientists in this world are cryonics experts. I would bet that the remaining 99% could combine their ingenuity in novel ways to come up with a solution to the problem sooner.

 

I would bet that no. And, anyway, the people writing ideas here aren't scientists (at least, not in the relevant fields, like chemistry, physiology, cryogenics or medicine) and have no experience at all on cryonics or estasis.

 

If you want to improve some engineering or scientific field, first of all, study and become an expert in the relevant fields. A half-baked idea helps no one.

Edited by Antonio2014, 25 December 2015 - 09:48 PM.

[ceridwen]

@Geekhere I was told that if I did that this would be considered suicide and th under those circumstances that the cryonics provider wouldn't freeze me

[ceridwen]

I don't have time to wait for a political change though I like what you say. Best not to put off one's provider.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

But it does show a pathway by which laymen might improve biostatis

 

No, it doesn't. Again, we aren't brine shrimp eggs.

 

For that matter, Geekhere is another layman with another potentially useful idea: use some sort of electromagnetic effect to interfere with ice crystal formation, presumably until we reach the vitrification temperature of water, at which water is an amorphous solid like window glass. Perhaps nuclear magnetic resonance or heavy water might be of assistance, for that matter.

 

Or perhaps we can pray to Osiris and he can preserve us for all eternity. An unfounded idea is not useful at all.

 

Clearly, less than 1% of the scientists in this world are cryonics experts. I would bet that the remaining 99% could combine their ingenuity in novel ways to come up with a solution to the problem sooner.

 

I would bet that no. And, anyway, the people writing ideas here aren't scientists (at least, not in the relevant fields, like chemistry, physiology, cryogenics or medicine) and have no experience at all on cryonics or estasis.

 

If you want to improve some engineering or scientific field, first of all, study and become an expert in the relevant fields. A half-baked idea helps no one.

 

There are countless examples of successful technology which did not arise as a result of funding experts with relevant qualifications. I'm not saying that expertise is worthless, merely that it's usually overvalued. Having a degree doesn't make logic or the Internet work better for you than for anyone else on this planet, despite what expensive universities would have us believe. It just means you can cut through material in your field faster than a layman.

 

You're right, of course, that half baked ideas don't help anyone. But that doesn't mean you can't have a crack team of engineers create a biostatis system better than what we have today, which is basically liquid nitrogen and some very poisonous preservatives. You're betting that cryonics expertise is so valuable and specialized that a tiny group of people could outdo the rest of the entire population who are interested in this field. I don't think so. The laws of physics are not so secret. It would be one thing if 10% of us were cryonics experts. But it's a microscopic slice. I think the odds are higher that you would get better results from the rest of the interested population, which contains geniuses from many relevant fields, even if none of them are experts on cryonics. And who knows who's reading Longecity and might be influenced by its ideas.

 

That's why, as much as I would support increased funding for cryonics, I think the shortest path to success is an X Prize open to all. This isn't a new idea. The Tricorder X Prize is all about making disease diagnosis cheap and easy. It's not a huge stretch to consider the same idea for this alternative approach to extending healthspan.

[Antonio2014]

@Geekhere I was told that if I did that this would be considered suicide and th under those circumstances that the cryonics provider wouldn't freeze me

 

As I told you some time ago, Alcor has not that problem, if you do it properly (by starvation, for example). Have you talked to them?

Edited by Antonio2014, 27 December 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[Antonio2014]

There are countless examples of successful technology which did not arise as a result of funding experts with relevant qualifications.

 

Please name one. And I didn't say qualifications but expertise.
 

Edited by Antonio2014, 27 December 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[ceridwen]

I know Alcor does not have that problem but I have paid for Cryonics Institute. I am fully paid up and I am fighting this as if I am fighting Lyme Disease and getting results. I also want to live long enough to see my grandchildren. I don't want to die. Recently some memories have been returning I know curing chronic Lyme can take a very long time. I also think that cures and treatments will appear if only I can retain consciousness for long enough. Cognition also imprvong but only after taking things to break biofilm. So not wanting to die fighting instead. Also a friend has reversed his problem after I told him the success of the clinical trials last year where Alzheimer's was reversed. I wish I had the strength and disciple to do that too.Perhaps my situation is not completely hopeless after all.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

There are countless examples of successful technology which did not arise as a result of funding experts with relevant qualifications.

 

Please name one. And I didn't say qualifications but expertise.

 

Educational qualification is a great way to enable scientific discovery. So is expertise learned on one's own time from published research or conversations with existing experts. But from a statistical perspective, neither is necessary. It's possible to solve problems using a strictly empirical process which amounts to little more than trial-and-error. Evolution itself works this way to great effect, despite its inefficiency. Now, this is certainly not optimal, but it has the advantage of enabling productivity from nonexperts whose only assets are basically enthusiasm and diligence. Science is as much, if not more, about being open to serendipity and unexpected effects, than studying a known body of knowledge and attempting to engineer a predictable outcome. And we need new science, moreso than engineering optimization, at this point in cryonics.

 

One of many examples of serendipitous technology is velcro, the ubiquitous fastener system, which was invented by an observant and curious mountaineer whose dog got covered in grass burrs. He had thousands of contemporaries more qualified to invent it, given their expertise in materials science. But they didn't, perhaps due to a lack of foresight or interest in solving the problem. And again, it's really just a statistical thing: how many materials science experts were thinking about such problems in 1948, as opposed to the number of people who were being annoyed by grass burrs? Likewise, how many experts on cryonics do we have at our disposal, as opposed to the number of people who are unsatisfied with the prospect of death?

[Rib Jig]

>  we are going to ignore them and change the system

 

Let's get real:

All your hit-&-miss "layman" suggestions are misses, aren't they.

You have NEVER changed anything in any system, have you?

Crap in, crap out.  That's not brainstorming...

STOP GOING OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!       

 

[Rib Jig]

Or is it gold, in, gold out, of a crap system of people? If I'm correct, you never proved my points wrong. Never. And never will. You don't need to use big letters.

 

plays low brow semantical games.

is out of touch with reality.

PROVE ME WRONG...      

 

crap in crap out (sound of commode flushing)

[Antonio2014]

I know Alcor does not have that problem but I have paid for Cryonics Institute. I am fully paid up and I am fighting this as if I am fighting Lyme Disease and getting results. I also want to live long enough to see my grandchildren. I don't want to die. Recently some memories have been returning I know curing chronic Lyme can take a very long time. I also think that cures and treatments will appear if only I can retain consciousness for long enough. Cognition also imprvong but only after taking things to break biofilm. So not wanting to die fighting instead. Also a friend has reversed his problem after I told him the success of the clinical trials last year where Alzheimer's was reversed. I wish I had the strength and disciple to do that too.Perhaps my situation is not completely hopeless after all.

 

Is there any way that Longecity can help you? A fundraiser or something?

Edited by Antonio2014, 28 December 2015 - 08:37 AM.

[Antonio2014]

One of many examples of serendipitous technology is velcro, the ubiquitous fastener system, which was invented by an observant and curious mountaineer whose dog got covered in grass burrs. He had thousands of contemporaries more qualified to invent it, given their expertise in materials science. But they didn't, perhaps due to a lack of foresight or interest in solving the problem. And again, it's really just a statistical thing: how many materials science experts were thinking about such problems in 1948, as opposed to the number of people who were being annoyed by grass burrs? Likewise, how many experts on cryonics do we have at our disposal, as opposed to the number of people who are unsatisfied with the prospect of death?

 

Velcro was invented by several experts. The first idea was from an engineer. He could not develop the tissues alone, so asked for help to people in the cotton weaving industry and then he turned to nylon instead. It took him a decade to produce the first machine that could manufacture velcro. Surely, his engineering expertise helped in that, and probably he learned a lot about tissues in the process, becoming an expert in nylon and weaving.

 

From https://en.wikipedia...orge_de_Mestral :

 

 

De Mestral first conceptualized Velcro after returning from a hunting trip with his dog in the Alps in 1941.^[3][4][5] After removing several of the burdock burrs (seeds) that kept sticking to his clothes and his dog's fur, he became curious as to how it worked. He examined them under a microscope, and noted hundreds of "hooks" that caught on anything with a loop, such as clothing, animal fur, or hair.^[6] He saw the possibility of binding two materials reversibly in a simple fashion,^[4] if he could figure out how to duplicate the hooks and loops.^[5]

Originally people refused to take him, and the idea, seriously. He took his idea to Lyon, which was then a center of weaving, where he did manage to gain the help of one weaver, who made two cotton strips that worked. However, the cotton wore out quickly, so de Mestral turned to synthetic fibers.^[6] He settled on nylon as being the best synthetic after, through trial and error, he eventually discovered that nylon forms hooks that were perfect for the hook side of the fastener when sewn under hot infrared light.^[5] Though he had figured out how to make the hooks, he had yet to figure out a way to mechanize the process, and to make the looped side. Next he found that nylon thread, when woven in loops and heat-treated, retains its shape and is resilient, however the loops had to be cut in just the right spot so that they could be fastened and unfastened many times. On the verge of giving up, a new idea came to him. He bought a pair of shears and trimmed the tops off the loops, thus creating hooks that would match up perfectly with the loops.^[6]

Mechanizing the process of the weave of the hooks took eight years, and it took another year to create the loom that trimmed the loops after weaving them. In all, it took ten years to create a mechanized process that worked.^[6] He submitted his idea for patent in Switzerland in 1951 and the patent was granted in 1955.^[5] De Mestral expected a high demand immediately. Within a few years, he received patents and subsequently opened shop in Germany, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Sweden, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Canada. In 1957 he branched out to the textile center of Manchester, New Hampshire in the United States.^[6]

Edited by Antonio2014, 28 December 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[ceridwen]

@Antonio well that's very kind of you but I can't help thinking that other people have loved ones that this would be much more appropriate for at the moment. Also my memory and tinnitus have started to respond to treatment with antibiotics and I shall start to use a Rief machine today. I also want to live long enough to see my grandchild who will be born in the summer. I don't want to miss that and at my current health levels I will probably cognise that. I still love life even if there's a lot of scratchiness and confusion getting in the way. So I shall have to decline for now

[Antonio2014]

Ok, as you want. Apart from funding your treatment or cryonization, there are other ways, like funding research for Lyme disease or finding volunteers that can do the cryonics procedure in the UK, etc. I whish you best luck in your fight.

[ceridwen]

Funding research on Alzheimer's would be good

[Rib Jig]

Here's how revival to VERY long life will unfold, IMO:

 

a. revival of dead a dead-end, IMO, because it doesn't exist in nature

(playing semantics with "dead" evidences lay naivety, crap in crap out)

(but go ahead if you're post count is a priority)

 

b. at some point, deep space travel will be desired to distances so far, suspended animation of living required

d. so in advance of deep space travel, earthly suspended animation will be pursued & become acceptable

---------------      

e. voila, alive --> cryonics --> revived ≠ murder 

(ergo, an option to death on Earth is suspended animation)

 

Suspended animation experimenting involving humans starts...?

2040, unlikely IMO;

2060, still less than 50-50 IMO;

2080, better than 50-50 IMO...

 

PONDER THIS: HAS ANYONE ALREADY SECRETLY ENTERED CRYONICS STATE WHILST STILL ALIVE???!!!

(billionaires, rich celebrities, etc.)

Edited by Rib Jig, 10 January 2016 - 10:56 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

.... 

 

Suspended animation experimenting involving humans starts...?

2040, unlikely IMO;

2060, still less than 50-50 IMO;

2080, better than 50-50 IMO...

.... 

 

 

A trail about the suspended animation, that involves people has started in 2012 actually, lol. 

 

Here is an information about the trail from the University of Pittsburgh: 

 

http://www.upmc.com/...iac-arrest.aspx

 

I don't know, however nothing more abou the trail. In your free time you may try to understand what has happened with the trail. And if there are important results. 

 

 

P.S. Some time after the post I found the trail in trails.gov: 

 

https://clinicaltria...=EPR-CAT&rank=1

 

It says that the study is still ongoing 

"This study is ongoing, but not recruiting participants."

 

Still nothing is published, obviously. Because it also writes: 

"No publications provided "

 

 

Edited by seivtcho, 11 January 2016 - 12:02 PM.

[Rib Jig]

"Trial of Body Cooling For Cardiac Arrest From Massive Bleeding..."

 

My guestimate was for start of suspended animation experimenting on HEALTHY humans;

Cardiac arrest + massive bleeding sounds like imminently dead humans,

more severe than terminally ill humans...?

But successful results from this could open door to cryonics option for living terminally ill??!!!

Maybe I'll readjust my guestimate for HEALTHY human start of experimenting to 2050...

[Danail Bulgaria]

....

... the success of the clinical trials last year where Alzheimer's was reversed. ...

 

 

Do you mind posting a link to the clinical trail? 

[Danail Bulgaria]

.... 

Short-term human hibernation for medical purposes (i.e. for a few hours) is already a mainstream medical practice

reference?

 

 

Even though you are not quoting my post, I know something, that may be of interest. 

 

There is a medical procedure for lowering the temperature for somne brain and heart surgeries, which is an absolute temporary hybernation for several hours. The aim is exactly the body temperature to drop, and thus be prevented brain damage  operation lasting several hours without blood supply for the brain. 

 

Here is something, that I found on this: 

 

https://en.wikipedia...ture_management

 

I know it also under the name of "Induced hypothermia" 

 

There are two methods, that I know of. The first is with ice bags arround the head and the body. I watched a movie about a Russian surgeon doing this. Unfortunatelly I can't find a link to it. 

The other way is with a perfusion aparatus, and a perfusionist (a medic working with this aparatus). 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Fluorinert won't keep frost off your test tube when you lift it up to see what happened. In every photograph I've ever published of a vitrified solution in a test tube, vial, or flask, the container was coated with methanol.

 

Your test for vitrification is wonderful !

I liked it.

The only negative is that dry ice, dewars and liquid nitrogen are not common things at home.

 

This is something the lame people may do. If several thousand people start meking experiments with random vitrification solutions, at least one will hit the bulls eye and will mix the perfect cryoprotectant by a chance. 

 

P.S. where do you publish the photographs of the vitrified solutions? 

 

Edited by seivtcho, 15 January 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

DMSO + trehalose looks nice.
http://diabetes.diab.../3/519.abstract
 

Trehalose: a cryoprotectant that enhances recovery and preserves function of human pancreatic islets after long-term storage.
G. M. Beattie, J. H. Crowe, A. D. Lopez, V. Cirulli, C. Ricordi, A. Hayek

The scarcity of available tissue for transplantation in diabetes and the need for multiple donors make it mandatory to use an optimal cryopreservation method that allows maximal recovery and preservation of beta-cell function. We have developed a method to cryopreserve islets with excellent survival of endocrine cells. Current methods use DMSO as cryoprotectant. Our method involves introducing both DMSO and the disaccharide trehalose into the cells during cooling. Uptake and release of trehalose occurred during the thermotropic lipid-phase transition measured in pancreatic endocrine cells between 5 degrees and 9 degrees C, using [14C]trehalose. Recovery of adult islets after cryopreservation with 300 mmol/l trehalose was 92 vs. 58% using DMSO alone. In vitro function, in terms of insulin content and release in response to secretagogues, was indistinguishable from fresh islets. Grafts from islets cryopreserved with trehalose contained 14-fold more insulin than grafts from islets cryopreserved without trehalose. Results with human fetal islet-like cell clusters (ICCs) were more pronounced: recovery from cryopreservation was 94%, compared with 42% without trehalose. Complete functionality of fetal cells was also restored; tritiated thymidine incorporation and insulin content and release were similar to fresh tissue. After transplantation in nude mice, there was a 15-fold increase in insulin content of grafts from ICCs cryopreserved with trehalose compared with ICCs cryopreserved without trehalose. Thus, the addition of trehalose to cryopreservation protocols leads to previously unobtainable survival rates of human pancreatic endocrine tissue.

 

 

The full text is also available. 

 

Here is a link: 

 

http://diabetes.diab...9.full.pdf html

[Danail Bulgaria]

Here is my brainstom idea. 

 

There is a science called "Cryobiochemistry". It deals with what happens with the biochemical processes under low temperatures. 

 

Those of you, who are biochemists, in their free time may dedicate themselves in cryobiochemistry. 

[Rib Jig]

Gosh Darn No.     

Put all $$$ into lobbying for

LEGALIZATION of SUSPENDED ANIMATION

after age 80...     

 

LoSA now!  LoSA now!  LoSA now!

Edited by Rib Jig, 21 January 2016 - 10:03 PM.