34 replies to this topic

[rooter]

Looking for alagebrium, but unable to locate. Sent a message to Paul Wakfer, but no response and morelife hasn't been updated since 2006. Maybe alagebrium didn't help him?

Someone suggested stenlabs.com so I asked for a lab analysis from them. It was just the data, with no letterhead or source attribution.

Have there been any new developments with AGE breakers lately? Better compounds?

[hamishm00]

a chinese manufacturer contacted me about algebrium a few months ago. It's possible to make it, you will just need to either stump up the cash or get a group buy going, and then maybe spend some money get it tested to ensure you're not about to eat a lead salad.

Paul Wakfer is the best guy on the planet to speak to about this particular compound. Morelife has actually been regularly updated since 2006, and he is currently active in his morelife yahoo group amongst other online gatherings. If you registered properly in that group and then approached him I think he might be more inclined to respond to you. If he hasn't responded to you I think he doesn't currently value your approach as one that is worth him spending time on (I wouldn't take this personally), but I suspect if you were persistent enough and perhaps had something worthy to offer him (such as participating in a group buy of algebrium), I suspect he might be very forthcoming. I think many members would be interested in such a group buy as algebrium is a compound of considerable interest here.

[rooter]

Thank you, I'll try it.

[maxwatt]

ALT-711 does not break pentosidine glycation bonds. These are the ones that make your skin wrinkle. It does cleave other AGE bonds, and seemed to improve systolic hypertension in studies. That would indicate increased flexibility of the arteries, which would be an effect of making them less rigid by breaking the cross-links, so it might not be a useless intervention as some have implied.

FWIW, I believe vitamin K2 supplementation (MK7) could have the same effect by limiting or reversing atherosclerosis.

As far as breaking pentosidine AGEs, the only substance I know of that has been reported as doing so is trans 3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene.

[pycnogenol]

More Life on ALT-711:

http://morelife.org/...ms/ALT-711.html

Durk Pearson mentions ALT-711 in his 2007 newsletter:

An AGE-Breaking Drug that Has Been Around for Nearly Forever but May Never Get FDA Approval

"ALT-711—this drug actually breaks previously formed “irreversible” AGEs. Might be nice to have, if you could get it. But with a price tag of about $800,000,000 to get FDA approval, it is a wonder that anything gets approved,
and the very few large companies that can afford this price want to make sure things remain the same. Hence the recent introduction of a 1300-page Good Manufacturing Practices for dietary supplements rules and regulations from
the FDA. “Let’s clean up (Order! We need order!) the dietary supplement industry by getting rid of these small, pesky, innovative companies.” We can anticipate significant price increases in dietary supplements as a result of the increased
costs of complying with all these rules and regulations, as well as greatly reduced competition in the industry as thousands of the current 15,000 mostly small businesses go belly-up. But then, getting rid of your competitors with the help
of the FDA’s guns by lobbying (and paying them user’s fees) is standard practice of oligopolists."

Edited by pycnogenol, 10 December 2010 - 12:06 AM.

[rooter]

maxwatt I've read allusions that alagebrium does not break all the desired bonds, but haven't found source materials. And WhereTH would you find trans 3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene, assuming it isn't toxic in some unanticipatable way? (PS, at Thanksgiving I was thankful that wrinkles don't hurt...)

pycnogenol I agree that Big Pharma pulls the strings, just like Big Oil influenced the EPA to effectively outlaw alt-fuel vehicles. No bother though, I drove to Canada to get my propane conversion kit, and have now run on propane for >5 years. 60% cleaner, 33% cheaper, a -waste byproduct- {yeah}, and I've never seen an EPA police car.

Edited by rooter, 10 December 2010 - 01:09 AM.

[maxwatt]

maxwatt I've read allusions that alagebrium does not break all the desired bonds, but haven't found source materials. And WhereTH would you find trans 3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene, assuming it isn't toxic in some unanticipatable way? (PS, at Thanksgiving I was thankful that wrinkles don't hurt...)

pycnogenol I agree that Big Pharma pulls the strings, just like Big Oil influenced the EPA to effectively outlaw alt-fuel vehicles. No bother though, I drove to Canada to get my propane conversion kit, and have now run on propane for >5 years. 60% cleaner, 33% cheaper, a -waste byproduct- {yeah}, and I've never seen an EPA police car.

3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene occurs in Polygnum multiflorum, aka Fo Ti. This is available in the US as a 12:1 extract. There are some cases of hepatotoxicity associated with use of the herb, though they may be due to other herbs it was combined with. The pure form is pretty much unavailable, though I'm working on it. Reports of pentosidine age-breaking are limited to a few papers, so more research is needed.

[sapentia]

maxwatt I've read allusions that alagebrium does not break all the desired bonds, but haven't found source materials. And WhereTH would you find trans 3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene, assuming it isn't toxic in some unanticipatable way? (PS, at Thanksgiving I was thankful that wrinkles don't hurt...)

pycnogenol I agree that Big Pharma pulls the strings, just like Big Oil influenced the EPA to effectively outlaw alt-fuel vehicles. No bother though, I drove to Canada to get my propane conversion kit, and have now run on propane for >5 years. 60% cleaner, 33% cheaper, a -waste byproduct- {yeah}, and I've never seen an EPA police car.

3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene occurs in Polygnum multiflorum, aka Fo Ti. This is available in the US as a 12:1 extract. There are some cases of hepatotoxicity associated with use of the herb, though they may be due to other herbs it was combined with. The pure form is pretty much unavailable, though I'm working on it. Reports of pentosidine age-breaking are limited to a few papers, so more research is needed.

Very interesting. Might a liquid water/alcohol extract be better than a 12:1 extract? There are many available which is why I ask.

An alcoholic extract from fo-ti roots yielded three bioactive compounds: E-2,3,5,4′-tetrahydroxystilbene, 2-O-beta-D-glucopyranoside and cis- and trans-E-3-butylidene-4,5,6,7-tetrahydro-6,7-dihydroxy-1(3H)-isobenzofuranone.
Ma C, et al. Chung Kuo Chung Yao Tsa Chih . 1991;16:662-664

[maxwatt]

...

Very interesting. Might a liquid water/alcohol extract be better than a 12:1 extract? There are many available which is why I ask.

An alcoholic extract from fo-ti roots yielded three bioactive compounds: E-2,3,5,4′-tetrahydroxystilbene, 2-O-beta-D-glucopyranoside and cis- and trans-E-3-butylidene-4,5,6,7-tetrahydro-6,7-dihydroxy-1(3H)-isobenzofuranone.
Ma C, et al. Chung Kuo Chung Yao Tsa Chih . 1991;16:662-664

The 12:1 extract is the most potent alcoholic extract readily available. The ratio refers to the concentration over the original material.

[greensweater]

Anyone track down a reputable source for this?

[maxwatt]

Anyone track down a reputable source for this?

Quoted $28,000 a kilo, source is not tested. will be looking for other sources next time I am in China.

[scottl]

3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene occurs in Polygnum multiflorum, aka Fo Ti.

Pretty interesting since Fo Ti/Ho Shu Wu is a chinese herb which has been used for centuries and

"He Shou Wu is widely used in Chinese tonic herbalism as a tonic to prevent premature aging". I'm purposely not giving the source for that quote, but believe it to be pretty common belief in traditional chinese medicine circles.

[DeadMeat]

ALT-711 does not break pentosidine glycation bonds. These are the ones that make your skin wrinkle. It does cleave other AGE bonds, and seemed to improve systolic hypertension in studies. That would indicate increased flexibility of the arteries, which would be an effect of making them less rigid by breaking the cross-links, so it might not be a useless intervention as some have implied.

FWIW, I believe vitamin K2 supplementation (MK7) could have the same effect by limiting or reversing atherosclerosis.

As far as breaking pentosidine AGEs, the only substance I know of that has been reported as doing so is trans 3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene.

Are you sure that's the correct name? Wouldn't carbon number 4 then only have 3 bonds and stuff?

[maxwatt]

3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene occurs in Polygnum multiflorum, aka Fo Ti.

Pretty interesting since Fo Ti/Ho Shu Wu is a chinese herb which has been used for centuries and

"He Shou Wu is widely used in Chinese tonic herbalism as a tonic to prevent premature aging". I'm purposely not giving the source for that quote, but believe it to be pretty common belief in traditional chinese medicine circles.

Tradionally use of the herb is external for treating gray hair. The stilbene is a small proportion for the total extract, which contains substances that can cause liver cancer and other liver problems. Please use caution in experimenting with extracts for internal use.

[scottl]

Tradionally use of the herb is external for treating gray hair. The stilbene is a small proportion for the total extract, which contains substances that can cause liver cancer and other liver problems. Please use caution in experimenting with extracts for internal use.

Max,

I respect you from my long ago time on here. I read this thread because I was curious about Alagebrium/ALT-711 and was surprised to find Ho Shu Wu mentioned because I was unaware of those properties of it. I am coincidentally presently taking it in a traditional chinese medical preparation which is meant for internal use (it is a "kidney energy tonic"). Google astra essence (no commercial interest). I assure you that it is routinely taken internally. I am an MD who strongly believes in some alternative forms of therapy including TCM (traditional chinese medicine). Not that it it a panacea, but it can be useful in some things that western medicine does poorly.

NB: statins and niacin can both be "useful" and these can both do really bad things to the liver in some people.

Edited by scottl, 11 May 2011 - 07:37 PM.

[maxwatt]

Tradionally use of the herb is external for treating gray hair. The stilbene is a small proportion for the total extract, which contains substances that can cause liver cancer and other liver problems. Please use caution in experimenting with extracts for internal use.

Max,

I respect you from my long ago time on here. I read this thread because I was curious about Alagebrium/ALT-711 and was surprised to find Ho Shu Wu mentioned because I was unaware of those properties of it. I am coincidentally presently taking it in a traditional chinese medical preparation which is meant for internal use (it is a "kidney energy tonic"). Google astra essence (no commercial interest). I assure you that it is routinely taken internally. I am an MD who strongly believes in some alternative forms of therapy including TCM (traditional chinese medicine). Not that it it a panacea, but it can be useful in some things that western medicine does poorly.

NB: statins and niacin can both be "useful" and these can both do really bad things to the liver in some people.

some formulations have been found, in China, to cause hepatic cancers. Perhaps due to other ingredients, but there is an effort in the Chinese herb industry to develop a method to remove possible toxic substances. Traditionally there are two forms of he shou wu, simply dried, and processed by boiling with other substances. There seem t be multiple ways of processing the root. The raw form seems to be associated with the carcinogens, but there is a lack of standardization in processing. The processed form i considered a different medication with different properties, and undoubtedly some of the tetrahydrostilbene or its glycoside has been removed. The 10:1 or 12:1 extracts should specify if they are from raw or processed root.There are paper mostly in Chinese on removing carcinogens from the root.

At this point I cannot clarify the situation. I hope and expect the processed root and products obtainable in the US are safe. However, I can't recommend them without more information. I will be meeting with a doctors of traditional medicine who also has an extract business, and some of is associates in a few months. I hope to have more information then, but I'm not counting on it. If I an get some purified tetrahydroxy stilbene, I'll let you know.\

[maxwatt]

ALT-711 does not break pentosidine glycation bonds. These are the ones that make your skin wrinkle. It does cleave other AGE bonds, and seemed to improve systolic hypertension in studies. That would indicate increased flexibility of the arteries, which would be an effect of making them less rigid by breaking the cross-links, so it might not be a useless intervention as some have implied.

FWIW, I believe vitamin K2 supplementation (MK7) could have the same effect by limiting or reversing atherosclerosis.

As far as breaking pentosidine AGEs, the only substance I know of that has been reported as doing so is trans 3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene.

Are you sure that's the correct name? Wouldn't carbon number 4 then only have 3 bonds and stuff?

I meant 2,3,5,4'-tetera-hydroxystilbene

[curious_sle]

I meant 2,3,5,4'-tetera-hydroxystilbene

would you perchance have a reading list of a few good articles on that subject?
thanks!

[okok]

I just bought he shou wu off ebay and queried the seller as to its safety. His response:

Hi. you are right, if the fo-ti herb is orginal without being processed, there is little unwanted constituents/toxins. Now nearly all of the Fo-ti herbs on the market, whether it is in the form of herb or other forms (such as powder, pills or tablets), are processed and there are no unwanted constituents/toxins. As for the powder, it was processed and extracted from original herb, it has no unwanted constituents/toxins, and is safe to use.

[bdoris]

I just bought he shou wu off ebay and queried the seller as to its safety. His response:

Hi. you are right, if the fo-ti herb is orginal without being processed, there is little unwanted constituents/toxins. Now nearly all of the Fo-ti herbs on the market, whether it is in the form of herb or other forms (such as powder, pills or tablets), are processed and there are no unwanted constituents/toxins. As for the powder, it was processed and extracted from original herb, it has no unwanted constituents/toxins, and is safe to use.

Of course, why would the seller say otherwise?

I have no doubt it has been 'processed' but to what degree, by what methods? It doesn't mean all harmful compounds were eliminated. Always be careful and take things with a grain of salt - Most likely, you'll have to take significantly higher amounts if you desire a real therapeutic or measurable effect - and so would increase the chances of side effects.

I've added this to my to-do list, I'll post in a couple of days some more data and research, if it can be found.

[Logic]

Bump! Any new info on this?

[neuropill]

It's really disappointing this never became FDA approved but I'm happy it's still available via research chemical suppliers. I just reordered some recently to keep my A.G.E.'s at bay.

[curious_sle]

Bump! What about the fo-ti component?

[Logic]

I cant find any papers on 2,3,5,4'-tetera-hydroxystilbene being a breaker, although its very interesting as a blocker and for hair etc.
Any Links?

[niner]

I cant find any papers on 2,3,5,4'-tetera-hydroxystilbene being a breaker, although its very interesting as a blocker and for hair etc.

Maybe that's because it isn't an AGE breaker. At least not as far as I know. What's it supposed to block, and what does it do for hair? This tetrahydroxystilbene is a resveratrol analog with an extra hydroxyl.

[Logic]

See post #4 Niner:

As far as breaking pentosidine AGEs, the only substance I know of that has been reported as doing so is trans 3,5,7,4'-tetrahydro-stilbene.

ISearched pubmed and fond papers onit being an AGE blocker and being good for hair. I didnt save the links and cant remember what was said about hair. Ill look again when wake, but def looks worth looking at.
No info as a breaker that I could find tough?

[maxwatt]

I can no longer find the paper where it was reported. (It was Chinese.) The herb it is found ina traditional remedy for graying hair.
The herb's Chinese name is He Shou Wu which can be translated as "Mr Hayes' Black Hair".

[Logic]

That too bad MaxWatt, but due to your reputation here I choose to go by your word.
I hope someone is able to find the paper.

NB: Its 2,3,5,4'-tetera-hydroxystilbene, not 3,5,7,4'

Here are some of the more interesting papers:

2, 3, 5, 4'-tetrahydroxystilbene-2-O-beta-D-glucoside (THSG) induces melanogenesis in B16 cells by MAP kinase activation and tyrosinase upregulation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19527735

2,3,5,4'-tetrahydroxystilbene-2-O-β-d-glucoside ameliorates vascular senescence and improves blood flow involving a mechanism of p53 deacetylation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22981429

Effect of 2,3,5,4'-tetrahydroxystilbene-2-O-beta-D-glucoside on lipoprotein oxidation and proliferation of coronary arterial smooth cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17701557

Effect of 2,3,5,4'-tetrahydroxystilbene-2-O-beta-D-glucoside on lipoprotein oxidation and proliferation of coronary arterial smooth cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17701557


There are a lot more:
https://www.google.c...iw=1205&bih=590

Does anyone have access to this paper?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15607431
Google mentions 2,3,5,4'-tetrahydroxystilbene for it.

Edited by Logic, 01 November 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[niner]

NB: Its 2,3,5,4'-tetera-hydroxystilbene, not 3,5,7,4'

Here are some of the more interesting papers:

2, 3, 5, 4'-tetrahydroxystilbene-2-O-beta-D-glucoside (THSG) induces melanogenesis in B16 cells by MAP kinase activation and tyrosinase upregulation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19527735

If you keep numbering around the A ring, the 6 position is equivalent to 1, and the 7 equivalent to 2. Highly irregular nomenclature, but then Maxwatt is an avid cyclist, so he's used to giving the wheel a spin. Note also that it's tetra, not tetera.

This paper is interesting because of the melanogenesis- it provides a hint that Mr. He was on to something, but he'd better take a boatload of it, because they're seeing this effect at around 30 uM, a level that would be hard for this kind of compound to reach in vivo. There are a lot of other things in He Shou Wu as well. Aside from legend, I have a suspicion that it doesn't work very well as a hair color restorer, or you'd find it in every WalMart on the planet.

[Logic]

If you keep numbering around the A ring, the 6 position is equivalent to 1, and the 7 equivalent to 2. Highly irregular nomenclature, but then Maxwatt is an avid cyclist, so he's used to giving the wheel a spin.

Note that Maxwatt actually corrected this in an earlier post and I was just correcting my previous mistake.

Note also that it's tetra, not tetera.

Oops! That'l teach me to copy-paste!

This paper is interesting because of the melanogenesis- it provides a hint that Mr. He was on to something, but he'd better take a boatload of it, because they're seeing this effect at around 30 uM, a level that would be hard for this kind of compound to reach in vivo. There are a lot of other things in He Shou Wu as well. Aside from legend, I have a suspicion that it doesn't work very well as a hair color restorer, or you'd find it in every WalMart on the planet.

Legend has it that Mr. He was an old soak who left his village in a huff and no-one was sorry to see him go.
He then lived exclusivly on this plant for quite some time.
Perhaps just maybe fasting and only eating one thing exclusively somehow makes more of it available. Mayhaps the body is less fussy about what it abzorbs when its starvng.. or something?

The big question though is; can we find the paper that shows 2, 3, 5, 4'-tetrahydroxystilbene to be a breaker of pentosidine AGEs???

Edited by Logic, 01 November 2012 - 02:45 PM.