43 replies to this topic

[medicineman]

For comparison, we can use levitiracetam, a drug similar in structure and function to piracetam.

it has been out for many years, and no correlation exists between levi and cancer. And levi is a highly prescribed drug for sufferers of epilepsy.

the man was eating other supps like crazy. Lets not jump to conclusions.

[solracselbor]

For comparison, we can use levitiracetam, a drug similar in structure and function to piracetam.

it has been out for many years, and no correlation exists between levi and cancer. And levi is a highly prescribed drug for sufferers of epilepsy.

the man was eating other supps like crazy. Lets not jump to conclusions.

Nefiracetam is also a derivative of piracetam and has been shown to cause testicular atrophy in dogs. Different structures are different drugs.

Edited by solracselbor, 21 December 2010 - 07:08 PM.

[Ender]

To be honest, some of his vitamin intakes worry me more than his racetam intake. Looking at various studies on the racetam drugs, his dosages were not extreme. In fact, all of his dosages of racetams except piracetam were less than those used in research studies and clinical trials. He's right at the upper threshold for B-6 at 200mg, and brags about 8 to 15 grams of C a day for instance. He doesn't list the dosages of fat-soluble vitamins, but imagine if they were similar to his water-soluble intake.

He talks about fighting asthma, allergies, problems with cortisol, frequent illness, problems with balance and coordination, etc.

He had a lot of problems. It could have been any of these, or one of a number of environmental factors. Or none of these, and just his genetic fate.

I know feelings about the racetams on this forum tend to be highly polarized, but considering ambiguities of the cases cited, the mild to moderate dosages, and the host of other possibilities, it seems rather disingenuous to make a big deal of the usage of racetams by this individual.

In short, I don't find the case particularly significant.

I'm with you. High vitamin intake is not necessarily safe, particularly fat-soluble vitamins. And Vitamin C in larges doses simply causes redox cycling, releasing more free radicals in the end than you had before.

[Neuronic]

I remember hearing not too long ago about cellular/cordless phones causing brain cancer. The proof? "He/she was on the phone all day long".
So many times there are a number of factors at play and many people want to look at or blame what they saw done the most.

Personally I think piracetam has had a semi-permanent effect on me after taking it regularly for over a year. Before taking it, if I got any less than 7 1/2 hours of sleep I was a zombie all day long and would do anything to go back to sleep if I was woken up early. Even after nearly 2 years off I still wake up easier and function better.
So who knows that long term effects there are, good or bad.

[Thorsten3]

Sucks for me. I take a BOATLOAD of b5. Not for nootropic purposes - for acne.

He seemed to be more into taking the racetams at heavy doses.

Here is his regimen:
http://www.antiaging...ment-regime.htm

Jeez maybe I am different but looking at his regimen I was thinking 'Shit why are you taking that much b vitamins? Just eat healthily and you'll get all you need without reaching toxic levels'.. Then I read further and he says that he has experience in studying nutrition. Did he not realise this simple fact? Perhaps it was his age... Hyper dosing vitamin pills might reverse years of aging on the brain.. Or perhaps he just didn't know much about nutrition.

Also I can't believe how much of the racetams he was taking. Just taking one of those blows my head off. Is it really neccessary to take all of them? I apprecite they all have their own individual benefits but considering all the other shit he was on I find it pretty over the top.

Still, each to their own.

Oh and 250/1 are not good odds at all. I wouldn't waste my money on such odds. I think the OP brings this point up quite relevantly as it has provoked an interesting discussion. I do however feel you can't read too much into it, as we know pretty much nothing about this guy, how he lived his life, whether he's being honest with us, so we can't really make a wholesome judgement either way.

Edited by Thorsten, 24 December 2010 - 03:55 PM.

[kikai93]

Sucks for me. I take a BOATLOAD of b5. Not for nootropic purposes - for acne.

He seemed to be more into taking the racetams at heavy doses.

Here is his regimen:
http://www.antiaging...ment-regime.htm

Jeez maybe I am different but looking at his regimen I was thinking 'Shit why are you taking that much b vitamins? Just eat healthily and you'll get all you need without reaching toxic levels'.. Then I read further and he says that he has experience in studying nutrition. Did he not realise this simple fact? Perhaps it was his age... Hyper dosing vitamin pills might reverse years of aging on the brain.. Or perhaps he just didn't know much about nutrition.

Also I can't believe how much of the racetams he was taking. Just taking one of those blows my head off. Is it really neccessary to take all of them? I apprecite they all have their own individual benefits but considering all the other shit he was on I find it pretty over the top. (snip)

Look at the dosages. He really wasn't taking much. For reference, his dose:
Piracetam(2.4grams, 2-4 times daily), Pramiracetam (300mg twice daily), Aniracetam (375mg twice daily), and Oxiracetam (400mg twice daily)


vs. dosages commonly prescribed:
Piracetam(2.4-9.6 grams daily), Pramiracetam (600mg twice daily), Aniracetam (750mg twice daily), and Oxiracetam (800mg twice daily)


vs. largest dosage I've seen in human studies:
Piracetam(12 grams daily), Pramiracetam (600mg thrice daily), Aniracetam (750mg four times daily), and Oxiracetam (800mg four times daily)


There seems to be a lot of misinformation about dosages and synergy of these drugs on this forum.


I agree with you on the b vitamins, it's what immediately stood out to me as well. Like I said above, imagine if his fat-soluble vitamin intake was similar.

[medicineman]

For comparison, we can use levitiracetam, a drug similar in structure and function to piracetam.

it has been out for many years, and no correlation exists between levi and cancer. And levi is a highly prescribed drug for sufferers of epilepsy.

the man was eating other supps like crazy. Lets not jump to conclusions.

Nefiracetam is also a derivative of piracetam and has been shown to cause testicular atrophy in dogs. Different structures are different drugs.

of course, but when lacking longitudinal research on a drug, the best you can do is compare. Drugs belonging to the same families exhibit different activity of course, but they do share core features.

didnt the nefi study use several tens of thousands mg of nefi daily on these dogs????? if levi was used in these doses on dogs (or humans), I wouldn't put it past the drug to cause some bizarre effect. I know of patients who complain of paraesthesia and other bizarre effects on the stuff.

Edited by medicineman, 26 December 2010 - 12:51 PM.

[Thorsten3]

Sucks for me. I take a BOATLOAD of b5. Not for nootropic purposes - for acne.

He seemed to be more into taking the racetams at heavy doses.

Here is his regimen:
http://www.antiaging...ment-regime.htm

Jeez maybe I am different but looking at his regimen I was thinking 'Shit why are you taking that much b vitamins? Just eat healthily and you'll get all you need without reaching toxic levels'.. Then I read further and he says that he has experience in studying nutrition. Did he not realise this simple fact? Perhaps it was his age... Hyper dosing vitamin pills might reverse years of aging on the brain.. Or perhaps he just didn't know much about nutrition.

Also I can't believe how much of the racetams he was taking. Just taking one of those blows my head off. Is it really neccessary to take all of them? I apprecite they all have their own individual benefits but considering all the other shit he was on I find it pretty over the top. (snip)

Look at the dosages. He really wasn't taking much. For reference, his dose:
Piracetam(2.4grams, 2-4 times daily), Pramiracetam (300mg twice daily), Aniracetam (375mg twice daily), and Oxiracetam (400mg twice daily)


vs. dosages commonly prescribed:
Piracetam(2.4-9.6 grams daily), Pramiracetam (600mg twice daily), Aniracetam (750mg twice daily), and Oxiracetam (800mg twice daily)


vs. largest dosage I've seen in human studies:
Piracetam(12 grams daily), Pramiracetam (600mg thrice daily), Aniracetam (750mg four times daily), and Oxiracetam (800mg four times daily)


There seems to be a lot of misinformation about dosages and synergy of these drugs on this forum.


I agree with you on the b vitamins, it's what immediately stood out to me as well. Like I said above, imagine if his fat-soluble vitamin intake was similar.

True I can understand the dosages thing, it was more the quantity of individual racetams he was taking I was referring to. Would he of honestly been able to say 'Yep Piracetam does this... Aniracetam does that... Oxiracetam does this... Pramiracetam does that..'..? Maybe he had the experience to gauge this. Perhaps I am just not hardcore enough, as I said one noot is enough for me and some of them completely disagree with me.

Edited by Thorsten, 26 December 2010 - 01:21 PM.

[kikai93]

Sucks for me. I take a BOATLOAD of b5. Not for nootropic purposes - for acne.

He seemed to be more into taking the racetams at heavy doses.

Here is his regimen:
http://www.antiaging...ment-regime.htm

Jeez maybe I am different but looking at his regimen I was thinking 'Shit why are you taking that much b vitamins? Just eat healthily and you'll get all you need without reaching toxic levels'.. Then I read further and he says that he has experience in studying nutrition. Did he not realise this simple fact? Perhaps it was his age... Hyper dosing vitamin pills might reverse years of aging on the brain.. Or perhaps he just didn't know much about nutrition.

Also I can't believe how much of the racetams he was taking. Just taking one of those blows my head off. Is it really neccessary to take all of them? I apprecite they all have their own individual benefits but considering all the other shit he was on I find it pretty over the top. (snip)

Look at the dosages. He really wasn't taking much. For reference, his dose:
Piracetam(2.4grams, 2-4 times daily), Pramiracetam (300mg twice daily), Aniracetam (375mg twice daily), and Oxiracetam (400mg twice daily)

vs. dosages commonly prescribed:
Piracetam(2.4-9.6 grams daily), Pramiracetam (600mg twice daily), Aniracetam (750mg twice daily), and Oxiracetam (800mg twice daily)

vs. largest dosage I've seen in human studies:
Piracetam(12 grams daily), Pramiracetam (600mg thrice daily), Aniracetam (750mg four times daily), and Oxiracetam (800mg four times daily)

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about dosages and synergy of these drugs on this forum.

I agree with you on the b vitamins, it's what immediately stood out to me as well. Like I said above, imagine if his fat-soluble vitamin intake was similar.

True I can understand the dosages thing, it was more the quantity of individual racetams he was taking I was referring to. Would he of honestly been able to say 'Yep Piracetam does this... Aniracetam does that... Oxiracetam does this... Pramiracetam does that..'..? Maybe he had the experience to gauge this. Perhaps I am just not hardcore enough, as I said one noot is enough for me and some of them completely disagree with me.

I don't think it's a matter of hardcore, or of moderation for that matter. For some people, very little "chemical enhancement" may be ideal. For others, twelve or more agents may be ideal. Neurochemistry is as individualized as a fingerprint. I've been taking a number of "nootropics" and "adaptogens" for some time now, including all four 'racetam drugs. I've noted only positive or neutral effects (with neutral agents being discontinued) and few ill effects (the aforementioned "stomach cramps" for instance), and I am being monitored by a physician. I don't really feel this is an issue for demagoguery. There are no lines to be drawn or sides to be taken.

[Thorsten3]

Oh yeah not taking sides dude I suppose I just have a very different take on it. We're all different indeed in respect to what works for us

Edited by Thorsten, 26 December 2010 - 10:10 PM.

[Ichoose2live]

I just found some alarming studies about Piracetam.

''The use of piracetam in the case of acute cerebral stroke increases the rate of neuronal death in various areas of the cortex, up to complete destruction of nerve tissues with the formation of cysts (in hippocampus).''
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17153958

''There is some suggestion (but no statistically significant result) of an unfavourable effect of piracetam on early death, but this may have been caused by baseline differences in stroke severity in the trials. There is not enough evidence to assess the effect of piracetam on dependency.''
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16625535

Edited by Ichoose2live, 03 January 2011 - 03:12 AM.

[tham]

Look at the dosages. He really wasn't taking much (!!)

For reference, his dose:

Piracetam (2.4grams, 2-4 times daily),
Pramiracetam (300mg twice daily),
Aniracetam (375mg twice daily), and
Oxiracetam (400mg twice daily)


vs. dosages commonly prescribed :

Piracetam (2.4-9.6 grams daily),
Pramiracetam (600mg twice daily),
Aniracetam (750mg twice daily), and
Oxiracetam (800mg twice daily)

But these are prescribed dosages
meant more for acute or short term intake,
and then only together with one, or at most
two, other nootropics, and moreover not
several racetams at that.

South was taken a whole witches' brew chronically.


Moreover, the analogs have multiple times the
potency of piracetam. Pramiracetam alone is
8 to 30 times more powerful.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Pramiracetam


And combining them with selegiline, hydergine,
pyritinol and vinpocetine .....

http://www.antiaging...ment-regime.htm



When you mess around with the metabolic
pathways of a living organism's brain to such
an extent chronically, you are playing
with wildfire - anything can happen.

[BrainFrost]

If the nootropics gave him 40 years of healthy living, what's the problem? He had so many issues prior to taking all the drugs.
It's about the quality of life, not the quantity.

[LexLux]

From his personal supplement regimen: http://www.antiaging...pplement-regime

"One of my favorite nootropics is liquid Deprenyl Citrate. I had used Jumex ® (Deprenyl HCL) intermittently over the years, but found that it didn't agree with me. It often made me irritable, anxious, "uptight" and even depressed at times. About 5 years ago Dr. Ward Dean convinced me to try the liquid Deprenyl, and much to my surprise I found it to be qualitatively different from Jumex. I find it to be an excellent mood elevator, psychoenergizer, and motivation-enhancer. It has improved my fine neuromuscular control, and seems to be a dopaminergic neuroprotector. I take 1-3 drops sublingually upon arising every morning. It may not be a coincidence that I've written more in the past few years than the previous decade."

In any case, we should look more carefully at the mechanism to question whether there are any potential downsides. "Both selegiline and rasagiline supress mitochondrial apoptotic signaling and up-regulation anti-apoptotic bcl-2 and bcl-xL as well as prosurvival neurotrophic factors, including GDNF and BDNF. Further Rasagiline increases GDNF more markedly than BDNF and NGF (vice versa for selegiline)."

Bcl-2 induction is important because it inhibits apoptosis which may be desirable for parkinsons patients, but what about cancer patients? "Aberrations in the BCL-2 family result in disordered homeostasis, a pathogenic event in diseases, including cancer."

"Bcl-2 and related cytoplasmic proteins are key regulators of apoptosis, the cell suicide program critical for development, tissue homeostasis, and protection against pathogens. Those most similar to Bcl-2 promote cell survival by inhibiting adapters needed for activation of the proteases (caspases) that dismantle the cell. More distant relatives instead promote apoptosis, apparently through mechanisms that include displacing the adapters from the pro-survival proteins. Thus, for many but not all apoptotic signals, the balance between these competing activities determines cell fate. Bcl-2 family members are essential for maintenance of major organ systems, and mutations affecting them are implicated in cancer."

One of the main reason why curcumin is so appealing as a cancer fighting agent is it's ability to reduce Bcl-2 expression, leading to apoptosis in cancer cells: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21595920

I wonder whether it could be detrimental for healthy people to take some MAOs chronically, given that they mess with Bcl-2 homeostasis?

Edited by LexLux, 24 March 2014 - 05:17 AM.