22 replies to this topic

[24 Is Ours]

A product called Hydrilla Verticillata by Vibrant health has caught my eye. I'm not a big fan of dairy so I am worried about my Calcium Intake.

My question is, would it be safe to consume this stuff everyday with such a high B12 content? I'm worried I might need some extra folate if I start using this everyday. What do you think?

Serving Size: 1 tbsp. (4.75 g)
Servings per Container: 42
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Calories 13.65 *
Calories from Fat 0.9 *
Total Fat 0.1 g 0.154%
Saturated Fat 0.03 g 0%
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.03 g 0%
Monounsaturated Fat 0.04 g 0%
Cholesterol 0%
Sodium 19 mg 0.8%
Potassium 117 mg 3.3%
Total Carbohydrate 2.7 g 0.9%
Dietary Fiber 2 g 8%
Sugars less than 1 g 0 g 0%
Protein 0.65 g
Vitamin A (from beta carotene) 5454 IU 109%
Vitamin C 6.53 mg 11%
Vitamin E 2.77 IU 9%
Thiamin 7.2 mg 480%
Riboflavin 0.26 mg 15%
Niacin 13 mg 65%
Vitamin B-6 4.5 mg 225%
Vitamin B12 475 mcg 7,750%
Pantothenic Acid 8.4 mg 84%
Calcium 624 mg 62.4%
Chromium 7.4 mcg 6%
Copper 174 mcg 8.7%
Iron 4.6 mg 25%
Phosphorus 12 mg 1.2%
Magnesium 38.3 mg 9.6%
Molybdenum 8.7 mcg 11.7%
Selenium 1.25 mcg 2%
Zinc 0.3 mg 2%
Boron 65 mcg *
Cobalt 174 mcg *
Silica 32.7 mg *
GLA (gamma linolenic acid) 3 mg *
Chlorophyll 16 mg *
Polysaccharides 2 g *
Alanine 44 mg *
Arginine 30 mg *
Aspartic Acid 69 mg *
Glutamic Acid 76 mg *
Glycine 43 mg *
Histidine 18 mg *
Isoleucine 35 mg *
Leucine 36 mg *
Lysine 43 mg *
Methionine 18 mg *
Phenylalanine 34 mg *
Proline 38 mg *
Serine 46 mg *
Threonine 40 mg *
Tyrosine 43 mg *
Valine 31 mg

Edited by 24 Is Ours, 02 January 2011 - 03:18 AM.

[leha]

24, that looks like a can of worms.* For one thing, the huge dose of B12 could, in some people, end up contributing to later B12 hypersensitivity, which is not something you would want. Not only that, but with all that other stuff, you would never be able to tell for sure if it was the B12 causing any symptoms you might end up getting on the regimen--especially since one of the ingredients they list as distinct from B12 is cobalt, which, if you did become sensitive to B12, is essentially the same mineral. [Cobalt allergy risk also increases with the use of hair dyes containing cobalt, which most of them do.]

This supp also has iron, which unless you are low or something, you probably should be getting only from your diet, right?

*Based on Personal Experience: I used to take about 2-300 mcg of B12 periodically, if I was under stress, and I also dyed my hair a lot. I developed a cobalt allergy [including allergy to B12], had to stop using cobalt-containing dyes, stop taking any B12, and carefully monitor my food choices to avoid any sudden B12 spikes in my diet. This is now probably a life-long thing for me. Whenever I'm exposed to a B12/cobalt spike I get to look forward to several days of intense, paroxysmal itching something akin to being bitten by many small ants.

[pamojja]

Most ingredients are rather low. However, 624mg of Calcium would worry me the most, especially since vitamin D3 and K is completely missing. To go sure I would get serum tests for calcium, ferritin, 25(OH)D and vitamin B12 first. If they are low it usually takes a quite some time and higher doses to replete body stores, and in this case it is very unlikely this product could do any harm. After some time I would test again.

Whichever way, make sure to get at least vitamin D3, and some 50-100 mcg of K2 (Menaquinone-7) too. After 2-3 month assess vitamin D3 status again and adjust the dose. (in my case it needs an 25(OH)D of 60 ng/ml to see serum calcium rise above deficiency, independent of how much calcium I get otherwise)

[Recortes]

leha,

did you measure your serum levels of B12 when you developed this allergy?.

[24 Is Ours]

24, that looks like a can of worms.* For one thing, the huge dose of B12 could, in some people, end up contributing to later B12 hypersensitivity, which is not something you would want. Not only that, but with all that other stuff, you would never be able to tell for sure if it was the B12 causing any symptoms you might end up getting on the regimen--especially since one of the ingredients they list as distinct from B12 is cobalt, which, if you did become sensitive to B12, is essentially the same mineral. [Cobalt allergy risk also increases with the use of hair dyes containing cobalt, which most of them do.]

This supp also has iron, which unless you are low or something, you probably should be getting only from your diet, right?

*Based on Personal Experience: I used to take about 2-300 mcg of B12 periodically, if I was under stress, and I also dyed my hair a lot. I developed a cobalt allergy [including allergy to B12], had to stop using cobalt-containing dyes, stop taking any B12, and carefully monitor my food choices to avoid any sudden B12 spikes in my diet. This is now probably a life-long thing for me. Whenever I'm exposed to a B12/cobalt spike I get to look forward to several days of intense, paroxysmal itching something akin to being bitten by many small ants.

I've never heard of such a sensitivity. I assumed the body excreted any excess B-Vitamins because of their water soluble properties.
About 6 months ago I was on a steady dose of B-100 Complex daily for about 2 months and didn't notice such an effect. Are you sure thats the problem? Maybe you should get you're B12 levels checked.

Thanks

Edited by 24 Is Ours, 02 January 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[24 Is Ours]

Most ingredients are rather low. However, 624mg of Calcium would worry me the most, especially since vitamin D3 and K is completely missing. To go sure I would get serum tests for calcium, ferritin, 25(OH)D and vitamin B12 first. If they are low it usually takes a quite some time and higher doses to replete body stores, and in this case it is very unlikely this product could do any harm. After some time I would test again.

Whichever way, make sure to get at least vitamin D3, and some 50-100 mcg of K2 (Menaquinone-7) too. After 2-3 month assess vitamin D3 status again and adjust the dose. (in my case it needs an 25(OH)D of 60 ng/ml to see serum calcium rise above deficiency, independent of how much calcium I get otherwise)

The majority of the calcium I get from my diet comes from a few servings of steamed spinach. I only get about 200mg a day from green leafy vegetables. Every 2 days I'll eat a can of salmon with bones for an extra boost of calcium.
Right now I am taking a highly absorbable Calcium Malate Chelate (500mg) but I would like to replace it with some "natural calcium." I am not worried about K or D, they are plentiful in my diet.

[pamojja]

Right now I am taking a highly absorbable Calcium Malate Chelate (500mg) but I would like to replace it with some "natural calcium." I am not worried about K or D, they are plentiful in my diet.

I get in average 1200mg calcium 'naturally' from diet. Additionally I supplemented up to 900mg from supplements. This didn't help to raise my serum calcium until I raised my vitamin D level, as already said. For getting the vitamin D to the level where it helped raise my serum calcium 10.000 IU vitamin D3 were necessary. Vitamin D is needed for helping absorption of calcium in the body. And vitamin K2, which I doubt you get through diet unless you eat natto, is necessary for getting the calcium into the bones, and not depositing in the arteries.

Though about 10.000 IU vitamin D is synthesized in the skin with a 20 minute full body sun bath around noon in the summer - but there is no way anyone could get that much vitamin D3 from diet, unless one gulped 100gram of cod liver oil, which I wouldn't recommend in any case.

Here some more infos about vitamin D3 and vitamin K2 and their relation to calcium absorption.

Edited by pamojja, 02 January 2011 - 05:52 PM.

[leha]

leha,

did you measure your serum levels of B12 when you developed this allergy?.

No, I sure didn't, and that's a good point. Let's call it an "intolerance" rather than an allergy, just to be clear that I never completed a patch test for cobalt either. My allergist at the time agreed that the patch test probably wasn't necessary. I do see the point that it would be good to know how my serum B12 is doing. Because I know the body needs B12 I don't try to avoid it completely. I just try to avoid big spikes, like taking supplements, or any big cobalt exposure.

Thanks for your interest.

[24 Is Ours]

Right now I am taking a highly absorbable Calcium Malate Chelate (500mg) but I would like to replace it with some "natural calcium." I am not worried about K or D, they are plentiful in my diet.

I get in average 1200mg calcium 'naturally' from diet. Additionally I supplemented up to 900mg from supplements. This didn't help to raise my serum calcium until I raised my vitamin D level, as already said. For getting the vitamin D to the level where it helped raise my serum calcium 10.000 IU vitamin D3 were necessary. Vitamin D is needed for helping absorption of calcium in the body. And vitamin K2, which I doubt you get through diet unless you eat natto, is necessary for getting the calcium into the bones, and not depositing in the arteries.

Though about 10.000 IU vitamin D is synthesized in the skin with a 20 minute full body sun bath around noon in the summer - but there is no way anyone could get that much vitamin D3 from diet, unless one gulped 100gram of cod liver oil, which I wouldn't recommend in any case.

Here some more infos about vitamin D3 and vitamin K2 and their relation to calcium absorption.

Thank you for the useful information. Do you eat a lot of dairy?

I eat spinach daily:
1 Cup of Spinach = about 900mcg of K

Humans can make vitamin K2 from vitamin K if I remember correctly. I get vitamin D from the fish I eat and there's also D in my calcium supplement.

[ajnast4r]

*Based on Personal Experience: I used to take about 2-300 mcg of B12 periodically, if I was under stress, and I also dyed my hair a lot. I developed a cobalt allergy [including allergy to B12], had to stop using cobalt-containing dyes, stop taking any B12, and carefully monitor my food choices to avoid any sudden B12 spikes in my diet. This is now probably a life-long thing for me. Whenever I'm exposed to a B12/cobalt spike I get to look forward to several days of intense, paroxysmal itching something akin to being bitten by many small ants.

while i would agree that large doses of anything, including b12, should be avoided... the chances of <300mcg dose of b12 causing problems in normal people are basically zero.

[leha]

I've never heard of such a sensitivity. I assumed the body excreted any excess B-Vitamins because of their water soluble properties.
About 6 months ago I was on a steady dose of B-100 Complex daily for about 2 months and didn't notice such an effect. Are you sure thats the problem? Maybe you should get you're B12 levels checked.

Thanks

It's not super-common, but not unheard of, either. I actually think it's underdiagnosed, because I've spoken with a lot of women who have dyed their hair for years and many of them develop the same symptoms but assume it's the chemical irritants in the dye (although the chemical irritants are not supposed to produce systemic symptoms and cobalt allergy does).

I worked with an allergist on this diagnosis, and she said cobalt allergies were pretty common, but didn't know specifically about B12 being a problem. So I did some research on my own at the time (sorry, but I don't remember the sources--somewhere on PubMed), and found the relationship between B12 and cobalt sensitivity in a couple of articles about people who had B12 injected, one of whom I remember was a very difficult case because she was also low in serum B12, and so, needed more to prevent anemia, but was not able to tolerate injections because of the sensitivity. This could be a big problem for anyone with this sensitivity, if they don't manage it, and I sure wouldn't want anyone to expose themselves to undo risk by over-consuming cobalt products, so that was why I spoke up about it. There may also be people who really need a lot of B12 (for example, those whose bodies don't absorb it properly), so obviously they have to have it, and that's different, but overexposure without need would not be a wise choice, since cobalt is one of the metals that people do often develop allergy to.

One of the symptoms early on was that I developed dermatographism (control test gets as big a rash as various substances, and you can "write your name" in rash on the skin, with pressure alone). There are a lot of people that have this condition and don't know why, and their doctors don't know why. I think it's possible that some of them might also have metal allergies/sensitivities, and that this has not been ruled out for them.

Not saying you are going to have cobalt allergy, but I didn't used to have it, and now I do, so I wanted to share that perspective with anyone thinking about a megadose of B12.

[leha]

*Based on Personal Experience: I used to take about 2-300 mcg of B12 periodically, if I was under stress, and I also dyed my hair a lot. I developed a cobalt allergy [including allergy to B12], had to stop using cobalt-containing dyes, stop taking any B12, and carefully monitor my food choices to avoid any sudden B12 spikes in my diet. This is now probably a life-long thing for me. Whenever I'm exposed to a B12/cobalt spike I get to look forward to several days of intense, paroxysmal itching something akin to being bitten by many small ants.

while i would agree that large doses of anything, including b12, should be avoided... the chances of <300mcg dose of b12 causing problems in normal people are basically zero.

Well, this was in combination with the hair dye exposure, and it did lead to a reaction to cobalt, including B12. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that if your body doesn't need a big dose of something, in keeping with the goal of doing no harm, it makes sense to give it only what it needs. The body needs food, as well, but too much food has been shown to lead to all kinds of problems. Why expose oneself to the risks of over-consumption without any clear motive for doing so?

[balance]

Upon reading Leha's story I wanted to share a little something too. I've had a very similar experience but with Vitamin C. Three years ago I started supplementing and undertaking a healthy lifestyle. I was taking life extension's 2 per day multi. It contains 500mg of vitamin C full dose. I took this multi for well over a year without any problems. Later on tried to take a separate vitamin C supplement because I read the "Ascorbate the science of vitamin C" book. Strangely enough I felt like the more vitamin C I took the more often I became sick. It got to the point that I as a 22 year old developed viral pericarditis 3 times in 1 year. I never got anything like that before, and it was highly coincidental with vitamin C intake. I noticed that the less vitamin C I took the better I felt. I then became hyper sensitive, I tried to do some tests with my girlfriend at the time by telling her to take care of my supplements for a month and putting in some vitamin C sometimes without me noticing, that way trying to avoid placebo. Every time she put it in, I felt nauseated. Kind of like when you only sleep 1 hour and wake up. It's a mixture of feeling like you're about to catch a cold and just feeling groggy. On top of that I would get a lot of diarrhea.

Anyway, I took out vitamin C entirely out of my supplement regimen and notice that whenever I take something with vitamin C in it beyond a dose of 50mg, I get symptoms. Even 100mg gives me the described feeling. I consider this to be a huge curse.. I know vitamin C is so important for collagen etc... Yet I can't take it. I never got a viral pericarditis again...
I've started taking B12 as methyl cobalamin again 2 weeks ago, I felt I had a deficiency and needed to boost it up. I can only imagine what happens if I develop some kind of allergy to it. I always notice though that I can't tolerate sublinguals too well... It hurts my teeth and gives me a dry mouth, that said, I don't feel that's the B-12 itself.

Regardless, thanks Leha for sharing that with us, very interesting about the hair dye's too. I need to tell my current girlfriend to stop coloring her hair constantly and now got a new excuse to do it :P

[ajnast4r]

Why expose oneself to the risks of over-consumption without any clear motive for doing so?

agreed. this is exactly my philosophy on supplement dosing.

[niner]

1 Cup of Spinach = about 900mcg of K

Humans can make vitamin K2 from vitamin K if I remember correctly. I get vitamin D from the fish I eat and there's also D in my calcium supplement.

You should really get your 25-OH-D3 level tested. I'll bet you aren't as high as would be optimal. I shoot for 50ng/ml, though some people like to be higher. I take 2000 IU/d vitamin D3 in an oil-based formulation. The D you get in your calcium is most likely a dry formulation, and they are notorious for poor absorption. NutritionDatasays you would need about a pound of canned salmon per day to get 2000 IU of D. That's doable, but I know that I don't eat even close to that amount of salmon. I do eat a lot of greens, but I still take a moderate dose of K2-MK7. (90 mcg four times/week).

[24 Is Ours]

Why expose oneself to the risks of over-consumption without any clear motive for doing so?

agreed. this is exactly my philosophy on supplement dosing.

I agree as well and will stay away from the supplement. I'll shoot for optimum Vitamin D levels and continue with my extra 500 mg of calcium from my malate chelate.

Edited by 24 Is Ours, 03 January 2011 - 03:15 PM.

[24 Is Ours]

1 Cup of Spinach = about 900mcg of K

Humans can make vitamin K2 from vitamin K if I remember correctly. I get vitamin D from the fish I eat and there's also D in my calcium supplement.

You should really get your 25-OH-D3 level tested. I'll bet you aren't as high as would be optimal. I shoot for 50ng/ml, though some people like to be higher. I take 2000 IU/d vitamin D3 in an oil-based formulation. The D you get in your calcium is most likely a dry formulation, and they are notorious for poor absorption. NutritionDatasays you would need about a pound of canned salmon per day to get 2000 IU of D. That's doable, but I know that I don't eat even close to that amount of salmon. I do eat a lot of greens, but I still take a moderate dose of K2-MK7. (90 mcg four times/week).

The last time I had my D levels checked they were 42 ng/ml without taking any extra in supplement form. Can you show me a study that proves that dry formulations are less absorbable? I have some Dry D laying around from TwinLabs (400iu) that I would like to start using.

Edited by 24 Is Ours, 03 January 2011 - 03:18 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Can you show me a study that proves that dry formulations are less absorbable?

Don't need a study for this as D is fat soluable. That knowledge and common sense is the answer. Sure, you 'can' take D as a powder while injesting fat, but common sense dictates that you will get better aborption from something already dissolved nice and neatly in a gel cap for you.

[24 Is Ours]

Can you show me a study that proves that dry formulations are less absorbable?

Don't need a study for this as D is fat soluable. That knowledge and common sense is the answer. Sure, you 'can' take D as a powder while injesting fat, but common sense dictates that you will get better aborption from something already dissolved nice and neatly in a gel cap for you.

Well I always assumed fat soluble vitamins should be taken with fatty food. Hopefully taking it with some brazil nuts will do the trick.

[pamojja]

Hopefully taking it with some brazil nuts will do the trick.

I doubt. While I reached my favorable vitamin D level with 10.000 IU rather quickly at the beginning of last year with liquid D3 drops. In summer I thought the sun is shinning anyway, so it probably wouldn't hurt and replaced a third of my intake with dry capsules, which I had laying around. Well, the effect was that my level dropped a sixth towards the end of the summer again (together with serum calcium).

Almost 60% of my calorie intake is fat, and it's in every meal.

Of course, once you've got dry capsules you still better throw them in, then away.

Edited by pamojja, 03 January 2011 - 08:43 PM.

[pamojja]

Why expose oneself to the risks of over-consumption without any clear motive for doing so?

agreed. this is exactly my philosophy on supplement dosing.

In the past I profited from a really good immunity, any illness (also serious) just seemed to pass again, given some patience. I had no motive to take anything.

However, years went by - always as a vegetarian and having lived for more than a decade in tropic countries and the local standard - this took its toll. I got seriously down with a PAD and analyzing it's probable causes, bad nutrition stood out as the main.

In the end I must say how stupid I was. Now I have every reason to overdose with supplements, because it's the only way I've found till now which allows me to even sprint again - while western medicine already would be glad if with their methods my walking distance (at worst 3-400m) would have improved even a little.

I experienced the really serious outcome of 'under-consumption'. In the end one always knows better, now I consider the best approach to supplement dosing: to inform oneself on the best available tests for nutritional status. Cron-o-meter can only give a very vague guess, but no guarantees at all. Our bodies handles nutrients too differently.

However, comparing the side effects of massive vitamin overdoses I take now (20g C, 6g EPA/DHA, 3g B3, etc.), I wouldn't want to exchange them altogether with those of only one non-nutritional compound, like something seemingly harmless as a baby aspirin. Seriously.

[niner]

1 Cup of Spinach = about 900mcg of K

Humans can make vitamin K2 from vitamin K if I remember correctly. I get vitamin D from the fish I eat and there's also D in my calcium supplement.

You should really get your 25-OH-D3 level tested. I'll bet you aren't as high as would be optimal. I shoot for 50ng/ml, though some people like to be higher. I take 2000 IU/d vitamin D3 in an oil-based formulation. The D you get in your calcium is most likely a dry formulation, and they are notorious for poor absorption. NutritionDatasays you would need about a pound of canned salmon per day to get 2000 IU of D. That's doable, but I know that I don't eat even close to that amount of salmon. I do eat a lot of greens, but I still take a moderate dose of K2-MK7. (90 mcg four times/week).

The last time I had my D levels checked they were 42 ng/ml without taking any extra in supplement form. Can you show me a study that proves that dry formulations are less absorbable? I have some Dry D laying around from TwinLabs (400iu) that I would like to start using.

42 isn't awful, but I try to be higher than that. The best real world evidence that dry D is poorly absorbed comes from Dr. William Davis, a cardiologist who has a large number of patients on D supplementation. It was his observation that dry D didn't move people's levels. D is dirt cheap. Honestly, I would throw the dry stuff in the trash and spend the five bucks on a good product.

[aaron_e]

i frequently take 5mg (5000mcg) of methyl-b12 and haven't had any problems. its not everyday but it is a few times a week.