19 replies to this topic

[moleface]

I currently take 1-2g of phenibut daily for severe anxiety. I know this isn't recommended, but I've had untreatable anxiety issues for a couple decades and the symptoms have essentially rendered me an invalid. GABA agonists barely help, but they're better than nothing.

I had a prescription for benzos for a couple years and went through the unpleasant GABA rebound anxiety, so I'm confident in my ability to deal with phenibut withdrawal. I've also cycled off the stuff for several days at a time and found that the symptoms felt just like benzo withdrawal with a mild rebound depression element - nothing I can't handle. Living with such debilitating anxiety for so many years has granted me an unnaturally high threshold for misery.

I originally would cycle off phenibut two days a week, but in January I went through a rough period and started taking the drug daily without any breaks. I'm currently starting an incremental taper down - from 2g a day to 1.5g to 1g etc. I bought some picamilon to help with the withdrawal, but i was wondering if it's smart to take both drugs at the same time or if I should just wait until the phenibut is completely out of my system. My plan was to slowly introduce the picamilon while I'm gradually decreasing the amount of phenibut.

Since the two substances act on opposite GABA receptors, shouldn't the only real issue be increased sedation from full-spectrum GABA stimulation? Or would it be counterproductive to take two GABA boosters simultaneously?

[Thorsten3]

I currently take 1-2g of phenibut daily for severe anxiety. I know this isn't recommended, but I've had untreatable anxiety issues for a couple decades and the symptoms have essentially rendered me an invalid. GABA agonists barely help, but they're better than nothing.

I had a prescription for benzos for a couple years and went through the unpleasant GABA rebound anxiety, so I'm confident in my ability to deal with phenibut withdrawal. I've also cycled off the stuff for several days at a time and found that the symptoms felt just like benzo withdrawal with a mild rebound depression element - nothing I can't handle. Living with such debilitating anxiety for so many years has granted me an unnaturally high threshold for misery.

I originally would cycle off phenibut two days a week, but in January I went through a rough period and started taking the drug daily without any breaks. I'm currently starting an incremental taper down - from 2g a day to 1.5g to 1g etc. I bought some picamilon to help with the withdrawal, but i was wondering if it's smart to take both drugs at the same time or if I should just wait until the phenibut is completely out of my system. My plan was to slowly introduce the picamilon while I'm gradually decreasing the amount of phenibut.

Since the two substances act on opposite GABA receptors, shouldn't the only real issue be increased sedation from full-spectrum GABA stimulation? Or would it be counterproductive to take two GABA boosters simultaneously?

Yikes... Sorry man to hear about your crippling anxiety. It drives us to anything in order to get relief. The picamilon won't do much at all, it's a really benign supplement even if you tried to smooth the phenibut out gradually. It may give very minor relief I suppose, it wouldn't do any harm. The phenibut on the other hand will get you into all kinds of shit if you were to keep taking it. So glad you had the foresight to decide to kick it. So you've been on this for a few weeks now? No tolerance issues noted so far? This supposedly harmless OTC supplement has been screwing around with people for years. It's plain nasty shit and you'll do well to be free of it. I don't know for sure but doesn't Phenibut act on GABA-B much like GHB? I really am not sure about this but if it does it may be worth getting hold of some baclofen which is also a GABA-B agonist. What they recommend in the GHB/GBL withdrawl threads is to take baclofen in the place of the GHB (I think in the evenings or at night as this will enable sleep - the biggest thing that fucks you up is the inability to sleep) and then to slowly taper off the baclofen. Baclofen would come with its own withdrawl issues but they are nowhere near as bad as GHB or phenibut and on wikipedia it is actually described as a non-habit forming substance without tolerance issues, how much of that is true I am unsure of though. I do know for a fact though that it is successfully used for G withdrawl and if phenibut does indeed act on GABA-B then it could be a good choice. Of course this is just an idea and I would urge you to do anything as such under the medical attention of an understanding doctor. Good luck though.

Edited by Thorsten, 19 March 2011 - 12:23 AM.

[moleface]

Yikes... Sorry man to hear about your crippling anxiety. It drives us to anything in order to get relief. The picamilon won't do much at all, it's a really benign supplement even if you tried to smooth the phenibut out gradually. It may give very minor relief I suppose, it wouldn't do any harm. The phenibut on the other hand will get you into all kinds of shit if you were to keep taking it. So glad you had the foresight to decide to kick it. So you've been on this for a few weeks now? No tolerance issues noted so far? This supposedly harmless OTC supplement has been screwing around with people for years. It's plain nasty shit and you'll do well to be free of it. I don't know for sure but doesn't Phenibut act on GABA-B much like GHB? I really am not sure about this but if it does it may be worth getting hold of some baclofen which is also a GABA-B agonist. What they recommend in the GHB/GBL withdrawl threads is to take baclofen in the place of the GHB (I think in the evenings or at night as this will enable sleep - the biggest thing that fucks you up is the inability to sleep) and then to slowly taper off the baclofen. Baclofen would come with its own withdrawl issues but they are nowhere near as bad as GHB or phenibut and on wikipedia it is actually described as a non-habit forming substance without tolerance issues, how much of that is true I am unsure of though. I do know for a fact though that it is successfully used for G withdrawl and if phenibut does indeed act on GABA-B then it could be a good choice. Of course this is just an idea and I would urge you to do anything as such under the medical attention of an understanding doctor. Good luck though.

Thanks

From what I've read, phenibut works on gaba-b while picamilon acts on gaba-a. I've heard that picamilon can take several weeks to work, and that's why I wanted to start taking it while already on phenibut. I figured that if anything, combining two drugs that both act on opposite gaba receptors would provide superior anti-anxiety effects. Not sure if that's the case though.

I'm already familiar with baclofen, but I don't have medical insurance so I'm unable to get anything that requires a prescription. I'm not hooked up with a "mental health professional" currently - when I lost my insurance and transferred to the local public mental health clinic, the doctors refused to give me benzos anymore and they repeatedly accused me of faking my anxiety symptoms to get on disability. Paranoid creeps. I eventually just stopped showing up. So until I move or get insurance, doctors are out of the question.

I've been taking the phenibut semi-daily since September. I actually haven't noticed any huge tolerance issues, other than the fact that my baseline dosage for minimal anti-anxiety effects went from 1g to 1.5g.

Originally I took breaks every week, which changed gradually to breaks every few weeks, but I found that the withdrawal didn't seem any worse than benzos and wasn't that intolerable. The withdrawal I experienced on my tolerance break days didn't seem to get any worse the longer I was on phenibut, so I figured that I'd hold off until I was ready to go off entirely and then taper down and go through just one withdrawal.

I'm actually kind of scared now - I didn't realize that picamilon was considered to be so benign. I figured that any gaba agonist would help compensate for the gaba crash from phenibut withdrawal.

I hate alcohol, but in theory wouldn't sipping alcohol throughout the day stacked with valerian and picamilon be an adequate way to boost my gaba enough to compensate for a crash? Obviously drinking daily isn't ideal, but I'd just like to know that I have a failsafe if the withdrawal is as bad as some say. I want to avoid intoxication - I just want to treat the alcohol as another gaba agonist and use only enough to reduce my symptoms.

Any idea how phenbiut withdrawal compares to benzo detox? I've heard some claim that it's worse, but I actually remember benzo withdrawal being far worse in terms of anxiety - though keep in mind that I'm comparing how I felt after 3 months on phenibut vs 1.5 years of taking xanax four times a day in the highest dose. I did notice that the phenibut withdrawal also had a depressive element to it that can be difficult for some people to deal with. Is that why people tend to say phenibut withdrawal is worse than benzos? At this point I'm used to feeling depressed all the time, so mild depression during drug withdrawal doesn't phase me at all.

Edited by moleface, 19 March 2011 - 01:19 AM.

[medievil]

I don't know for sure but doesn't Phenibut act on GABA-B much like GHB?

The tolerance issues are extreme compared to GHB, phenibut is a stupid joke.

[moleface]

I don't know for sure but doesn't Phenibut act on GABA-B much like GHB?

The tolerance issues are extreme compared to GHB, phenibut is a stupid joke.

Phenibut definitely works. It's subtle at first, but now I can easily pinpoint the drug's effects while under its influence. It produces a very specific but subtle feeling for me.

I'm hoping that phenibut turns out to be a "stupid joke" though - I'm getting a little freaked by all the withdrawal horror stories I'm finding online.

Maybe some people are oversensitive to rebound anxiety and mild depression? I don't know. Phenibut detox didn't feel all that terrible for me before, but it's been three months of daily use since the last time I cycled off.

Edited by moleface, 19 March 2011 - 03:29 AM.

[moleface]

Can anyone who's gone through phenibut withdrawal give me their impressions on the experience? Is the detox really that bad? I'd trust impressions on this forum more than I'd put stock in random comments on random drug message boards.

At this point, the anticipatory anxiety I'm dealing with is bound to make the withdrawal experience all that much worse. It's hard not to psych myself out while reading all the phenibut horror stories online. I took the phenibut in the first place to deal with daily panic attacks and insomnia, so symptoms like severe rebound anxiety and being unable to sleep for a week sound like the last thing I need in my life right now.

Edited by moleface, 19 March 2011 - 07:46 PM.

[adamh]

Try niacinamide. I'm not joking, google it and anxiety. People have gotten off benzos using it and said it works better only no tolerance.

[medievil]

Can anyone who's gone through phenibut withdrawal give me their impressions on the experience? Is the detox really that bad? I'd trust impressions on this forum more than I'd put stock in random comments on random drug message boards.

At this point, the anticipatory anxiety I'm dealing with is bound to make the withdrawal experience all that much worse. It's hard not to psych myself out while reading all the phenibut horror stories online. I took the phenibut in the first place to deal with daily panic attacks and insomnia, so symptoms like severe rebound anxiety and being unable to sleep for a week sound like the last thing I need in my life right now.

GHB and phenibut withdrawal are completely interchangeable.

[moleface]

Try niacinamide. I'm not joking, google it and anxiety. People have gotten off benzos using it and said it works better only no tolerance.

Thanks for the recommendation. But shouldn't that essentially produce the same effect as picamilon, since picamilon is niacin bound to GABA?

GHB and phenibut withdrawal are completely interchangeable.

Great.

I guess it's stupid to worry this much about withdrawal from phenibut, considering that we live in a society where a powerful GABA agonist(booze) is sold in nearly every store. I'm going to use alcohol as my last resort though - as long as I'm not having any seizure issues, I'm going to try to stick with picamilon.

I'm wondering if Phenibut or GHB withdrawal could really be as bad as detox from two straight years of heavy benzo use though. I was actually was able to force myself to go to work while going through alcohol and xanax withdrawal, without any other medication to fall back on.

Again though, I'm wondering if maybe anecdotal accounts of phenibut/ghb withdrawal are slightly exaggerated. I've dealt with severe daily panic for so many years, at this point I can pretty much ride out even the most severe anxiety like it's an unpleasant drug trip.

[J. Galt]

Hands down the best anxiety support I've tried is lithium orotate. 5mg elemental lithium from 120mg Lithium Orotate daily provides great general anti-anxiety support. 10mgs is effective and fast acting for acute anxiety (eg panic attacks). It also provides a host of general life extension benefits.

I also find ashwaganda and bacopa to helpful for anxiety. Have you tried those?

Other suggestions: L-theanine, taurine, inositol, magnesium orotate, and zinc orotate.

Lowering cortisol levels might also help. Options include Phosphatdylserine, Relora, Holy Basil Extract, Banaba Extract (standardized for corisolic acid), and Borage Oil. Careful not to overdue these though as lowering cortisol too much can produce fatigue.

If you're open to trying homeopathic alternative, I'm a fan of Highland's Nerve Tonic and Bioplasma Essential Cell Salts.

Finally, binaural beats are another option that many find highly effective. Also great for studying. There are some great iOS apps for less than $3.

[adamh]

J Galt had some good suggestions. Moleface, why did you dismiss niacinamide so casually? The stuff works, try it at least. It is not expensive unlike phenibut or picamillon. Pic keeps you awake at night if you take it late in the day. Niacinamide has no such problem. Google "Niacinamide anxiety" without the quote marks and see what you find.

[moleface]

Hands down the best anxiety support I've tried is lithium orotate. 5mg elemental lithium from 120mg Lithium Orotate daily provides great general anti-anxiety support. 10mgs is effective and fast acting for acute anxiety (eg panic attacks). It also provides a host of general life extension benefits.

I also find ashwaganda and bacopa to helpful for anxiety. Have you tried those?

Other suggestions: L-theanine, taurine, inositol, magnesium orotate, and zinc orotate.

Lowering cortisol levels might also help. Options include Phosphatdylserine, Relora, Holy Basil Extract, Banaba Extract (standardized for corisolic acid), and Borage Oil. Careful not to overdue these though as lowering cortisol too much can produce fatigue.

If you're open to trying homeopathic alternative, I'm a fan of Highland's Nerve Tonic and Bioplasma Essential Cell Salts.

Finally, binaural beats are another option that many find highly effective. Also great for studying. There are some great iOS apps for less than $3.

Thank you for all the suggestions! It's reassuring that I have so many options.

I'm wary of lithium though. I've read quite a few books on the history of psychiatry - lithium's application as a psych drug was predicated on an accidental discovery in the 1940s that lab rats displayed docile behavior and produced less reactions to stimuli after being injected with the substance. Couldn't lithium's therapeutic effect be essentially chalked up to its ability to induce general brain impairment? I'm far more comfortable with straightforward tranquilizing agents.

It's the same reason why I refused to take "antipsychotic" tranquilizers for off-label anti-anxiety use when I was seeing a psychiatrist- a drug that induces sedation via GABA agonism seems a lot less questionable to me than a "chemical lobotomy" agent that produces sedation by blocking major serotonin and dopamine receptors.

I've tried ashwaganda with little effect. Lowering my cortisol levels via supplements is an avenue I've yet to explore for my anxiety - thanks for the suggestion.

L-theanine has no noticeable effect on me, though it's difficult to gauge exactly how much of it is actually contained in the green tea extract I'm currently taking daily. I'd purchase some pure l-theanine to compare, but I have to be selective with what I buy - I'm on an extremely limited budget. As for the other supplements you mentioned, I'll definitely look into them.

I'm vaguely familiar with the concept behind binaural beats - I'll finally give it a shot.

J Galt had some good suggestions. Moleface, why did you dismiss niacinamide so casually? The stuff works, try it at least. It is not expensive unlike phenibut or picamillon. Pic keeps you awake at night if you take it late in the day. Niacinamide has no such problem. Google "Niacinamide anxiety" without the quote marks and see what you find.

Hey, there's no need to call names. Oh wait... that's my screenname... nevermind.

Anyway - I didn't mean to sound dismissive, and I appreciated your response. I just assumed that niacinamide bonded to GABA would be preferable to niacinamide on its own, considering that I'm dealing with downregulation of my GABA system. My daily B-100 supplement contains 100mg of niacinamide, but I know that's well below the dose recommended to combat anxiety. I'll definitely toss some high dose niacinamide into my daily regimen - it's inexpensive enough to experiment with.

Edited by moleface, 20 March 2011 - 06:59 PM.

[John Barleycorn]

I get more nauseous than panicky when quitting phenibut, which suggests anti-emetics as an option. I'll second the recommendations for baclofen, as it would appear (at least in theory) to be the easiest GABAergic to taper off. It's cheap as dirt if you don't mind on-line Indian pharmaceuticals. Green tea \== l-theanine BTW. The latter definitely turns my lights out when required. In fact, I suspect there is the possibility of tolerance development.

[moleface]

I get more nauseous than panicky when quitting phenibut, which suggests anti-emetics as an option. I'll second the recommendations for baclofen, as it would appear (at least in theory) to be the easiest GABAergic to taper off. It's cheap as dirt if you don't mind on-line Indian pharmaceuticals. Green tea \== l-theanine BTW. The latter definitely turns my lights out when required. In fact, I suspect there is the possibility of tolerance development.

The problem with baclofen from an overseas pharmacy is that it will probably arrive once I'm already through the worst of the phenibut withdrawal. I'll definitely look into it as an option if I feel the need to continue taking a strong anti-anxiety medication though.

I'm getting interesting effects from 50-100mg of picamilon a day stacked with my usual phenibut dose. I seem to be getting cognitive benefits from it - I normally suffer from a lot of brain fog and memory issues from constantly being preoccupied with panic symptoms, but I feel more articulate on picamilon with a marked improvement in memory.

My phenibut taper starts in the next couple days. I'm going to decrease the 2g dose by 250mg increments daily, and then take a small 500mg dose for a week or so before going completely off. I only have 25 grams of the stuff left, so I'm considering "plugging" my daily dose to make my supply last longer - I want my taper down to be as gradual as possible. Oh the indignity.

[John Barleycorn]

I only have 25 grams of the stuff left, so I'm considering "plugging" my daily dose to make my supply last longer - I want my taper down to be as gradual as possible. Oh the indignity.

You could also try neutralising it with some antacid for more efficient absorption (at least orally).

[Imagination]

Doesn't sound like gaba related products are helping with your anxiety at all, are you sure it's not serotonin related anxiety? some 5-htp instead perhaps?

[moleface]

You could also try neutralising it with some antacid for more efficient absorption (at least orally).

Thanks - I'll try that if my alternate method doesn't work out for me.

Doesn't sound like gaba related products are helping with your anxiety at all, are you sure it's not serotonin related anxiety? some 5-htp instead perhaps?

Yeah, that's a good recommendation - my anxiety is tied in to my almost complete lack of self esteem, so mood elevators tend to help more than tranquilizers. But GABA boosters provide a halfway decent amount of mood stabilization for my constant racing thoughts and irritability, both of which are exacerbated by stimulants.

Five years ago, I took a ridiculous 80mg of Paxil for two years and experienced what appears to be semi-permanent serotonin downregulation as the result. 5-HTP produces no noticeable effect for me though.

The natural SSRI stimulant kanna feels like prescription antidepressants to me without most of the creepy zombification and withdrawal issues. I don't like being on uppers long term though - there's an element of emotional numbness to their effects that I find creepy.

I'm going to look into substances that are supposed to upregulate serotonin receptors. In theory, taking a serotonin antagonist semi long term would do the trick - but I'm not comfortable taking "antipsychotic" tranquilizers.

Also, regarding my original question - can anyone give me any reason why I shouldn't stack phenibut with picamilon? Am I reducing the effectiveness of either drug? I was under the impression that they didn't compete for the same GABA receptor. I'm getting really good effects from the picamilon, at least stacked with phenibut.

Edited by moleface, 23 March 2011 - 05:39 PM.

[moleface]

Oh crap(oops... bad choice of words) - phenibut "plugged" is FAR more potent than ingesting it. Only 500mg caused an overwhelming queasy heaviness to descend on me, which smoothed out to the same effects as my usual 2g oral dose.

The phenibut is definitely in my system, but it's difficult to objectively compare the efficacy of this dose vs my usual oral dose. It actually feels a bit stronger than usual, though this could be the placebo effect. I guess I'll find out if I get insomnia from cutting my dose so drastically.

Now that I've essentially quadrupled my phenibut supply, I'm going to do as incremental of a taper down as possible.

[moleface]

Never discount the placebo effect - I found out today that a 500mg rectal dose is actually nowhere near a 2g oral dose. I guess the cumulative effect of several months of daily phenibut use was enough to delay the onset of withdrawal. I woke up today shaking, sweating and experiencing nightmare anxiety.

Thanks again to everyone for all the suggestions - I'll definitely look into a lot of these supplements as phenibut alternatives in the future. In the meantime, I'm going to stick with the picamilon I already bought and small amounts of alcohol if needed, mixed with lots of running.

I can tell already that this detox is going to be fun. Wheee!

[John Barleycorn]

Never discount the placebo effect - I found out today that a 500mg rectal dose is actually nowhere near a 2g oral dose.

The theory suggests polar substances like phenibut wouldn't work too well.